Are fat people doomed to failure because they're too lazy or gluttonous or whatever? Or is it true that looks don't matter, that it's the inside that counts? (No, I'm not talking about cholestoral.) Do you believe that fat people can get dates if they just have self-confidence and sassy smiles?

(If you hate fat people, go ahead and refrain from answering.)

-- Anonymous, September 19, 2000

Answers

I truly believe fat people can get dates with a sassy smile and a sassy haircut, and a positive attitude. I think so many attitudes are based on the individual, not because they're fat or skinny, male or female.

I think fat people get a bad rap from people obsessed with their weight, though. And not every thin person is obsessed with their weight, and not every fat person is sitting on their ass, shoving another scoop of ice cream down their throat.

I remember Gwen wrote in an entry once that she wasn't overweight because she had personal issues, she just liked cinnamon rolls. I wish people would lay off analyzing who we might be just because we don't look like the person who is considered the ideal weight.

I feel like Jesse Jackson, man. We should be able to celebrate our diversity, and no one should feel less of a person by anyone else based on their outward appearance. Of course, this is far from reality, but I really hope it happens someday.

-- Anonymous, September 19, 2000

No matter how mature and enlightened we like to think WE are, or society is, we are almost INSTANTLY judged on our appearance. Those who won the genetic lottery have less of a task to 'convince' people of their worthiness, honesty, value, etc. Numerous studies have been done on how beauty 'buys' people more favorable initial assumptions. Fat people are not doomed to failure, but do not have an equal playing ground... must work that much harder to PROVE their intelligence, energy, commitment, and desirabi

-- Anonymous, September 19, 2000

I think fat people are marginalized because most people think that fat people are fat because they have some sort of personality defect. People attribute personality traits (gluttony, weakness, laziness, low self-esteem) based on this one physical characteristic. It's also strange that many people who would never make a racist/sexist/otherwise discriminatory joke have no problem with fat jokes. Of course fat people can succeed, get dates, whatever, but I imagine they have a harder time of it than an equally qualified thin person. There's the "halo effect" to contend with. That is, people who are considered physically attractive are automatically perceived to be smarter, cooler, kinder, better at whatever. It sucks but for some reason that's the way most of our little minds work.

-- Anonymous, September 19, 2000

I think my uncle's weight has stopped him from being as successful as he has wanted to be. He was the head of a music department in a NJ school system and decided he wanted to be a principal, so he went to NYU at night and got his master's and got very close to getting his PhD in education. He started applying for principal postions and interviewed a hell of a lot but never got the job. People with less education and less job experience were getting the jobs, so he dropped the PhD program since it was draining the family budget, keeping him away from his family, and it didn't seem to help with the job search. He finally got a job as a principal in a po-dunk town in upstate New York. From looking at the town I would think that he got the job because no one who has any talent and experience would want to live in that town and work there. I honestly believe he didn't get the better jobs in New Jersey because he is overweight, and the school boards felt that he wouldn't get the respect from the kids he would be in charge of because of his size.

-- Anonymous, September 19, 2000

Here's a depressing little tidbit...my Dad is a very successful business man and he's also very big. He's 6'4", at least 250 lbs and not big in a muscular way either. We were talking about the world's perception of fat people when my Dad said "You know, there are a lot of guys like me in my company and among my peers at other companies but there are NO overweight women once you get past a certain level" We agreed that sucked but there it is.

-- Anonymous, September 19, 2000

Gwen asked: Do you believe that fat people can get dates if they just have self-confidence and sassy smiles? I believe that fat women who feel sexy and believe they are sexy ARE sexy, hell yes. Self-confidence and sassy smiles can get just about anyone dates.

-- Anonymous, September 19, 2000

I think people think it's okay for a MAN to be fat, but not a woman. I actually think that big men seem to get MORE respect in certain areas.

-- Anonymous, September 19, 2000

I read an article several months ago, in Shape magazine, about body confidence. In it, it said that one of the ways that you can improve your own body confidence is to not judge others by their appearance and I was amazed at how challenging it's been for me. I think a lot of those thoughts are really ingrained in us, which is somewhat daunting when trying to change such behaviors, but it's worth it.

-- Anonymous, September 19, 2000

This is an interesting question. I went from thin to not thin over a few years and people do seem to treat me diferently. But it could be related from being 20ish to not 20ish. I work with programmers who are for the most part "large" so we have a running joke that you need to be above a certain weight to work on the computer system that we have. I think it may be harder for large women to get ahead, but it depends upon the field. I noticed in banking, you could almost look like anything and if you were competent (very competent) you could work right up the ladder, but banking is a female dominated field. Sassy smiles do help.

-- Anonymous, September 19, 2000

oh lordy, this is all about me.

A fat chick can have all the confidence in the world; it's men who have the problems with women's size. I went from a very sexy big woman to a woman who can't be described any way BUT fat. And since my smile isn't all that attractive, and you can't really see my pretty face under all the fat, sassy smiles don't get me anywhere. I most definitely am treated differently now. I get ignored, I get told by complete strangers what I should do to lose weight (they never bother to ask if I even WANT to lose weight), I get called awful names to my face by men who, four years ago, would have been begging for my phone number. I haven't had a date in three years because I'm fat and men are shallow.

Self esteem is a tricky and complicated thing, because you can treat yourself like a princess but if every thing you see all day long is telling you NOT to look the way you do, it can undermine whatever confidence you've worked up.

-- Anonymous, September 20, 2000

The whole thing about fat just stymies me. I was listening to a brainless woman who has been given her own talkshow up here in Seattle the other day. Her subject was "Why are people in Seattle so darned unattractive?" Her contention was that we are an enclave of overweight hairy people who have shut attractive people (i.e. emaciated shaved people) out of our little party... Wahhhhh!

Okay, I'm tall. I weigh 165-170. I could step into the ring with most middle weights. Some men like me, some men don't. In college I remember not getting a hostessing job because I was too "big"... of course I heard this second hand. My favorite college professor was a big woman, heavy, but she was the head of the English department and didn't give a shit what anyone thought of her weitght. She was always dressed to kill and while I wouldn't say she sported an attitude, no one EVER gave her weight loss tips.Everybody loved her, because she was smart, sassy and funny.

I don't understand people who think that their weight gives them bragging rights or somehow raises their IQ in any way. And yeah, I would say that prejudice happens, in a lot of areas. Especially glamour jobs... But there are also a lot of people out there who have their heads on straight and actually GET the concept that it has more to do with qualifications and personality than what size pants you wear. Good topic. It steams me, but good topic!

-- Anonymous, September 20, 2000

Y'all know about MODE Magazine, right? I just love it, it's a very positive, inspiring fashion mag for women sized 12, 14, 16 and up. I started reading it when I was a size 16 and it inspired me to forget about my size and just do things that were good and nurturing and healthy for me. A year and a half later, I'm a size 12. I didn't consciously fight the "battle of the bulge" -- I was just doing things that were good for me, taking care of me. That's not always easy to do when you've got kids (I've got four), when you're a stay at home kind of Mom, when your food budget is restricted (it's cheaper to eat foods that make you fat), when you don't have money/time for the gym, or don't have a babysitter, etc. But after going through a period of time when I positively *hated* my body I decided that's enough of that, it was the only body I had and I better start taking care of it, whether there of more of it to take care of or not. And I wasn't about to go on any stupid wacked out diet either. Life is for living and food is meant to be enjoyed. But I did change the way I ate for nutrition reasons and I started exercising to get stronger, but I really didn't expect to see any major changes because I'd tried lowfat diets and stuff in the past with no results. I'm not telling anyone to do what I did. I'm just saying that, for some reason, for me, I had to accept myself as is first before anything changed. And if nothing had changed, I'd still be accepting myself.

So I don't know...we're all different, we're all individuals, and we're going to all look different. I don't judge people by their weight because I don't know their life, their genetics, their situation. I am way harder on myself than anyone else, though.

-- Anonymous, September 20, 2000

Word, word, word on Mode. That magazine rocks. They show pretty clothing that a woman who isn't a size 4 can wear. And they're very upbeat - I don't feel like a total loser after reading it, which is the case with most women's magazines.

In answer to Gwen's original questions, fat people can succeed. They can get dates. It's just harder, because our society, in general, makes a lot of judgments on looks (tall men do better than short men in business, for example). Self-confidence and a sassy smile help, but they're not going to work all the time. Looks do matter, but they matter differently to different people. Discrimination against the fat does exist (I've been the recipient of my share of insulting remarks). However, and I say this as a large woman who's been even larger, that you have to avoid getting in the trap of blaming all your life's woes on fat. Being fat is not necessarily the cause of unhappiness.

I could say a lot more on this topic, but you're all sick of me by now.

-- Anonymous, September 20, 2000

I have a theory about this: Fashion models (to my eye) are all built like 12 year-boys because that's what most swishy fashion designers like: 12 year-old boys. I'm not homophobic, I'm just stating an opinion. I see many beautiful women everyday who don't fit this mold. I got stopped by a Texas State Trooper one day, a woman, who looked me right in the eye as we talked and I'm six foot one or so in cowboy boots. This gal could have gone bear hunting with a switch, as they say. She had no make-up on and her hair was in a bun. That woman was HOT! She smelled like soap! She had a gun! She had HANDCUFFS!!! WHOOOOOOOAAAA! (Fantasize, Bubba, Fantasize) I have a painting of a Grecian bath scene in my office. Nothing lurid, it's done in the style of Rodin. The women are haunchy; they have small but ample breasts. They'd never make the cover of Playboy. I like them. They look, uh, comfortable. And no one would mistake them for anemic boys.

-- Anonymous, September 20, 2000

Besides, any woman who wants to make the beast with two backs with me better have the meat on her bones to stand up to some fierce and prolonged and very sincere hunching. Oh, yeah.

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2000

The thing is - what you look like makes up like .000000003 per cent of who you are, right? Right? My older brother had a muscle disease for a long time and as a result of it is very ver thin and looks sort of arthritic, he doesn't have a lot of range of motion. You can not BELIEVE the things that people will say to him, the way that they stare, and the general rude behavior that he has to put up with on a daily basis. People think because he's physically handicapped that he's mentally handicapped. I'm sure that he's not gotten jobs because of it, I know people stare at him and point. My point is, I think it's really important to not judge other people based on how they look, even though it's difficult, I think it's important enough to work at it. We shouldn't decide that because someone is fat they're lazy, anymore than people shouldn't conclude that because my brother is physically handicapped that he's retarded, or that he can't see them point or stare. Sorry to go on and on. This is an excellent topic, I think the posts are very interesting.

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2000

I struggle with this a lot. I don't fit (literally) the image I have in my mind of people who do what I do. I worry that this will hold me back from sucess in that field because I have such a strong visual image of what that person looks like. It's mostly about body size, but there's also this whole other beauty thing too. I resent that I don't have the same expectations for men. I hate that men seem to be able (still!) to get away with physical make-up as one aspect of their whole selves while women are left with looks as the defining aspect of themselves.

Depressing.

Oddly enough, I don't worry much about this in terms of attracting people to sleep with/have romantic relationships with. In that area I'm pretty confident and I think that must come across. I've been propositioned lots. Even once by a woman when I was pregnant -- so maybe all of the taboos and expectations there have been shattered for me and I think most things are possible or likely.

Professionally I'm still worried.

Isn't this pathetic? I have no problem believing that loads of people want to 'get with' me (I'm stealing that from you, Gwen, because it's too funny), but I cringe when I step up to a mic to read in front of strangers. I'm convinced their all thinking, "what? it's the fat girl? I thought it was going to be someone good!"

-- Anonymous, September 22, 2000

When you think about this question, everyone seems know a "fat" girl who gets by just fine, who out-and-out rocks, as a matter of fact. She's always a girl who's a laff riot, wears fun trendy clothes, and is a great dancer. The guys love her, the girls love her....

If everyone knows someone like this, there must be millions of them out there. We can't all be friends with the same cool chick who happens to not be a size 6.

So in conclusion, no. Cool fat people are not doomed to failure in the least. Uncool, self-loathing fat people are always doomed. If you stapled their stomachs and liposuctioned their butts they'd just find a new way to express their self-loathing and lack of humor. Maybe they'd marry mean men and wear those tacky rayon dresses with the visible shoulder pads, in a size 6.

-- Anonymous, October 06, 2000

Good point, fruitbat. And visible shoulder pads are no one's friend.

-- Anonymous, October 09, 2000

The thing about fat that just blows me is that there's always some way to BE fat. Or not fat. And I'm not talking just your weight, I'm talking about the way people react.

I'm a big woman. I'm tall, and I weigh in at somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 lbs. I've been thinner, I've been fatter, and the times when I was downright skeletal (at least for me) I still wasn't "thin". I was, at the time, working with a bunch of women I could've picked my teeth with.

Now I'm at a cushioned place in my life, and the women I work with (with the exception of 1 or 2) are all middle-aged grandmotherly types, and I'm "skinny" or at worst, "healthy...

My husband thinks I'm a goddess, and tells me so daily. My mother-in- law frequently eyes the width of my ass with dismay (she's another one of those naturally skinny people). And gives me diet tips every time I see her. (Sorry, I feel a rant coming on...)

Ohferchrissakes.

I would like to be HEALTHIER--I'm a no-exercise kinda gal with bad knees and a bad back--I would like to get off my butt. But thin? Fat? God, I've been called both within the same day, so huh?

I've more or less come to the happy conclusion that anyone who's more obcessed with my cellulite than me probably just plain doesn't like me for a lot of reasons....

To address the original question: "presence" counts for a lot more than "fat". Unfortunately, once you've been tagged with "fat"-- whether you are or not or are somewhere inbetween--it tends to take such a chunk out of your self esteem that your presence is shot to hell.

A lot of fat folks are doomed to failure--because everyone around them has treated them so badly that they believe they are doomed to fail.

-- Anonymous, February 04, 2001