In exactly 3 days I will be in Walt Disney World in Orlando. I am really excited, but some folks think I am going down to roll in the mud with all the homos and sinners because they all live in Disney (or something like that). Even my Uncle wouldn't go to Disney because of his conscience's sake. So am I sinning by going to Disney World with my family?

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

Answers

I can't afford to go to Disney World!!!

Michael.....have a great time.

I just ask one thing.....remember this the next time you want to bash me for "going to the movies."

Have fun!!

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

Hmmmmm.......haven't been reading this thread much but decided to stop by today.

As I read everything I thought....."Boy....a lot of good reasons stated here for homeschooling!!"

Nuff said!!

-- Anonymous, September 19, 2000

The public schools are on a sinking ship! Period!!

I have no desire to protect my kids all their life. But....I do have the responsibility to prepare my kids for life. That is not the public school's responsibility....it is mine.

No one can do it better than parents....and certainly...the public schools cannot do it.

-- Anonymous, September 19, 2000

First, I'd try to steer them to another field.

Second, I'd suggest that if they were dead set on it that at least they attend one of our brotherhood colleges that offers education philosophy from a biblical perspective.

Third, if they didn't go for that, I'd warn them about the "liberal propaganda" that is going to be shoved down their throat in the name of "education." The purpose of education is no longer to educate....it is to "indoctrinate." Evidence?? Which political party does the N.E.A. always support??? (Yep....the condom and abortions party). Why do education professionals constantly fight against standards in their industry (i.e., minimum test scores for teachers)?? I would tell them about teachers I know....who were good Christian people who gave students an "F".....and were chastised and told never to give less than a "C" again. They quit. And now their education degree is wasted because they refuse to teach in the "politicized" institutions we call "public schools."

I guess Robin....I would want them to face the cold, hard, reality.

After that....if they still decide to go with it.....all I can do is say..."I'm praying for you."

-- Anonymous, September 20, 2000

Michael,

I question things like this all the time... what can or should a Christian do or more so, who or what should we support or not support?

Yes, Disney has problems... but in all honesty so do most all companies that we deal with every day. Philip Morris makes cigarettes, but they also own Kraft foods... how may of you buy Kraft products?

I hope this is not too off the subject, but I am curious what some of you may know or feel about "Pokeymon" (is that spelled right)? I don't know a lot, but I see this even in the church and I don't like it... maybe I am unnecessarily alarmed?

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

Danny...

I just bought a new book from Ken Gire (author of "Intimate Moments with the Savior" - a MUST READ) entitled, "Reflections on the Movies...finding God in the unlikliest of places." It intrigues me because we are transitioning into using a data projector and powerpoint in worship and in my preaching. One of my friends regularly uses video clips to illustrate his sermons and it works very well. (Something that doesn't surprise me in our media-saturated culture). Anyway...I am not softening on that subject personally, because I will still never see a rated "R" film but I see value in using it to spread the gospel.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

The whole Disney thing is sad and bizarre at the same time. Its sad because the Walt Disney company of today is different from the Walt Disney compant when Walt was alive. Of course, the Walt Disney company today is making a PROFIT, which it wasnt doing (as I understand it) before Walt died.

The bizarre thing is that Disney is constantly seen as a "family" company. What exactly does that mean? The movies and shows the Disney company produces is a reflection of what it is now: a Hollywood industry. It reflects the morals and values of Hollywood. So I am neither shocked nor surprised at its actions.

And in reference to Pokemon: its kinda passe' now. Pokemon is a Japanese cartoon that is full of Bushido (i.e., Samurai) values. It has fantasy magic and violence in it (Pokemon are pocket monsters who are little monster gladiators. The best kid who is a "trainer" becomes Pokemon master. Pokemon's are peaceful until they are committed to 'battle' by their owner).

And comparing that with Disney...why is it that people griped about Pokemon (mainly because of the violence and occultic overtones), but said nothing about Disney's Pocahontas, which was historically inaccurate and completely a New Age tract!

Just thought that was interesting ;)

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

One positive for the movies is that often you can find parallels to spiritual themes. If you know someone else who has seen the movie and liked it, you can use it as a springboard. A good example would be The Matrix.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

Dr. Jon,

The problem I am dealing with is that no one is gripping about Pokemon, Pocahontas, or anything and my kids are left wondering why the "preachers kids" cannot do what all their "church" friends are doing. (And BTW, where I am Pokemon is very popular).

Am I being to strict or cautious? Is it "only fun"?

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

Growing up, for several years there, I didn't watch hardly any TV at all. Church discouraged it. After we left that church Mom rationed our TV time, and eventually that wore out. I missed out on some pop culture, but I don't think it really hurt me too bad. Of course, i spent time i would have spent on TV playing Atari computer video games.

I don't know much about Pokemon. One of the writers at work was going to write on it, so she had me try to read and understand the directions and explain it to her. It is an incredibly complex game. It looks like mostly strategy. If i were a kid I could get into it. I wouldn't be surprised if some adults don't play the game as well. The only thing I saw 'besides violence' was the 'psychic' power that kids could use. I think people are probably upset over this because it has become such an obsession with some kids.

I don't have kids yet. I live in Indonesia. This country is very theistic, though there is a lot of Islamic influence. TV still has garbage on it. The trashiest shows are from the US and Mexico, it seems. Mexican soap operas have fornication and intrigue. 90210 gets shown over here, along with other shows.

It is shocking to see US tv after you've been away from it for a while. Fornication and homosexuality are protrayed and normal everyday life. 'Falling in love'is idealized in a warped way. If you are 'in love' you are supposed to be together forever. If you fall 'out of love' it is supposedly okay to get a divorce. Spouses are chosen based on emotional feelings, and dumped because of a lack of emotion. If a woman's husband beats her or is a jerk, in the movies, it is okay for her to divorce him and marry someone else. The female lead in Titanic was a two-timer, and they make her out to be the heroine. Morals in the movies are all warped. The Bible tells husbands to love their wives. It doesn't say if you are infatuated with someone you must marry, and if the feelings die, marry someone else. If you feel 'in love' with someone, it's suppsoed to be okay to take them to bed. Kids grow up with this type of warped thinking, because they pick it up off of TV. We have a whole generation of people who believe think like this.

I grew up reading and memorizing scripture- at least during my teen years. but I also grew up watching a lot of junk on TV. I remember when I was about 12 or 13 thinking it was wrong to date someone unless you were in love with them, thinking my heart pounding when I saw someone, and not being able to eat was being in love. I picked that type of thinking up from TV. Now, as an adult, I can see things on TV and recognize them as wrong. Kids see these things, and it forms their moral value system.

So if you want to live without TV for your kids sake, and keep them from bad thinking, that is a good thing. TV is a powerful influence. TV commercials often are one of the things that makes kids want the toys that are bad for them. But other kids at school influence them like that as well.

An hour a week of Sunday school v. 200 hours a week of TV is not a good ratio for a childs moral education. Turning off the TV and spending time teaching one's can help a lot. There are Christians kids videos- though some mess up the Biblical stories. Veggie Tales is cool, though the story is a bit loose. The 'God is bigger than the boogie man' song is cute, but I dont' know how kids would interpret that.

Parents are responsibe for teaching children is with parents. Scripture teaches that. It doesn't say that Sunday school teachers have the responsibility for this important task.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

This is another 'eternal problem.' I can sympathize with you Marc, really. I was the same way as you are as a parent. I tried to limited or have no TV watching, and tried to raise my kids biblically as best I could. All they thought was that they were missing out on 'fun' because everyone else, including church kids, were in on the latest fad.

Link hit ALOT of issues on the head in his post. I am glad I am not the only one who sees this.

Right now in my hometown (Lawton, OK) there is a big push for a mayoral task force to do something about our kids. Why? Because after a survey was given to the 10th, 11th and 12th graders in all the high schools, what was found was that we have an above national average of high school age drunk drivers, above national average number of kids having sex with multiple partners, an alarming number of teens (especially girls) who have been suicidal, and an alarming number of teens (again, especially girls) who have been raped.

Two days ago I went to a meeting held by the Mayor with local pastors. He would like our help. Sounds good...but...

What can we do in two to 4 hours a week? Not alot. If the parents arent doing anything, nothing will happen. When 48% of high school age kids are having sex with multiple partners, guess what? They are in your church, and they are having sex in spite of the fact that they hear in church that it is a risky and immoral thing.

And guess why? Because every single day on the radio, on TV, and in movies, they are told its OK. Every day they hear that 'love is the answer,' and that its ok to have sex if you are in love...no, wait...sex is a recreational activity, and if you are ok with it, and your partner is ok with it, its cool to do it so long as you both are satisfied.

We cannot compete. Mainly, because "God's people" will not have any guts. The Southern Baptist Convention called for a boycott of Disney because of its immoral stance. So guess where they held their convention? Orlando. I'm like, 'C'mon guys, lets show some backbone here.' But there is none. These self-styled perveyors of righteousness ask for a boycott of Disney, but went to Disney World after their convention.

I don't think you are wrong Marc. Not at all. I don't think you are paranoid either (I've known paranoid people), just cautious.

I'd like to offer some form of a solution, but short of everyone who professes to be a Christian waking up and suddenly BEING a true Christian, I can't see our nation getting out of the moral cesspool we have allowed ourselves to fall into. Its all about money, ultimately. Smut and garbage sells. As long as Hollywood makes megabucks from junk movies and TV (and music), then it will continue. Since no one in America will vote with their pocketbook, we are facing a losing battle.

But don't give up tho. We still have a responsibility for future generations, and there may still be some hope for influence on them.

-- Anonymous, September 14, 2000

We would never permit a guest in our house who said the things in our presence that we watch on television and on the movies. Our inconsistency is killing us and our children. When you turn off the TV or get rid of it with no dialog, devotionals, discipline, or serious Christian service with your children, all they will feel is deprived. Parents have lost it. In the race for work and profit, everybody is minding the store and nobody is minding the home.

Abraham was chosen "that he may charge his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice; so that the Lord may bring about for Abraham what he has promised him" (Gen. 18:19). After that statement, he proceeded to tell the patriarch what he had in mind for Sodom and Gomorrah, that Abraham might learn in part what God meant by righteousness and justice.

By our compromise with culture, we have stopped being serious about holiness. We point at society's depravation, but fail to see our own sin. (Luke 13:1-5 speaks poignantly here.) Repentance must come. And, ironically, he who calls for repentance is seem as the radical.

Indeed, he is. Jesus always was.

-- Anonymous, September 14, 2000

Thank you for all the responces... and I ask for continued prayers.

One thing I did not mention... I have started a new ministry here (2 months) and while there is a great group of people that love the Lord and are on fire for Him... I see some problems as I have shared and others as well.

Being so new here it is hard to stand up and say too much for fear of offending someone who does not understand where I am coming from. And it is hard for my kids to make friends when we don't approve of many of the things their friends are doing.

Maybe I am getting off the subject, forgive me... I feel I need to share these things with others that I believe know where I am coming from.

-- Anonymous, September 14, 2000

Marc,

Hang in there, Buddy! I will pray for you and your ministry.... As you do the right thing and your kids do the right thing (and know why)... you and they will have an impact.

Christian Radio has been discussing Pokemon and pointing out why we should be concerned.... so others ARE concerned.

TV.... well that's a subject!! I was raised without TV (not on religious basis... just always had better things to do in my family).... Today, I can't sit still to even watch a show (and don't). The negative impact that TV has had on our nation is tremendous. Are you familar with the 'TV-Free America' campaign (now called TV Turnoff Network)? See it at: http://www.tvturnoff.org/

-- Anonymous, September 14, 2000

Brother Dewey,

I don't think the situation is nearly hopeless, or that voting with dollars to change Hollywood's mind is really the answer.

Maybe it would be better to focus on those around us, in our churches, andin our lives. Young people, like everyone else, need to be a part of a community of Christians that really know one another, encourage one another to sin, and who are disciples. Young people need discipleship relationships with oler Christians who can answer their questions. I have seen young people who really love God and who are willing to give up various forms of entertainment if they felt they were sinful or hurt their walk with the Lord. There are high school students who love Christ, and even share their faith with others in school. There are kids who are 'on fire for God.' One of us may not be able to disciple the whole nation. But we can help someone we know grow inthe Lord.

Several years ago I was back in America helping my paren'ts build their house. I was out there, hammering nails, or doing something like that as we lay the plywood for the floor. I began thinking about an idea for a book 'Christian Sex Education.' Christians are concerned about the idea that he secular school system is going to teach sex education and let their kindergarteners read 'My Two Momies.' Not only do a lot of kids learn about the mechanics of sex from the wrong sources, but they learn morality about sex from the wrong sources.

I began thinking of the idea for what to put in the 'Christian Sex Education' book. The book would go into the Law to show the morality in the laws God gave for Israel in regard to sexuality. There would need to be an explanation that we Christians are not under the Law, etc. It could go into the laws that show if a man seduces a virgin, he was required to marry her, if the girl's father would permit it. if a man raped a virgin, the same rule applied. It could explain that 'two shall be one flesh' refers to sex.

The book could deal with divorce, Christ's teaching on it, and why it is such a damaging thing. It would need to confront homosexuality, lesbianism, and such things as that. The teachers book could have some background for answering questions about masturbation and other issues that people have different views on. Verse by verse, chapter by chapter, it could deal with these issues in the Law and in the New Testament.

The book would have sections on how we can be forgiven from sin at the end of each section that deals with a particular sin. Readers can be encouraged not to join themselves with other people, being made one flesh, before marriage, and encouraged to be careful choosing a spouse so as not to divorce.

The whole issue of the cultural issues of finding a spouse, v. the American cultural approach of dating could be dealt with. The concept of 'in love' verses loving your spouse can be dealt with. I heard a preacher say once that someone asked him what he would do if he did not love his wife anymore. His answer? he would get down on his knees and repent and pray until he had love for her again. This is the kind of reasoning that would need to be taught in the book.

Readers would be taught to be careful in dating- not to date those who are not suitable for them for marriage, not to play around with dating, breaking other people's hearts, etc. The issue of the Biblical gift of celibacy could be discussed.

The book would also need to deal with how to overcome sin- Romans 6-8, John 8, and teach the fact that Christians do not have to sin. There is always a way of escape. The whole book could be layed out in a way that it could be taught as lessons. It could be taught to young people. Churches could send out fliers offering 'Christian sex education' on morality. Be sure to split up the boys and the girls for this one. Adults could also take it. There is such a need for education on sexuality and divorce, etc. these days.

I thought about these things, and it was as though I heard the Lord speak to me in my heart and tell me that this was greatly needed in the body of Christ. I prayed silently, telling the Lord that I wanted to serve him, but it would be awkward for me to promote such material, being a single young man. I didn't want to be single going aroundto churches, talking about sex, and giving people counseling. It was enough to just take care of me. I didn't really sense the Lord pushing me to write it or go around promoting it then.

Someone went into the backhoe soon after this and turned on the radio. The song was 'Let me tell you about the birds and the bees and the flowers and the trees....' I thought that was interesting.

Maybe one day I'll write that book, or maybe someone else will.

I believe it is important for young people to be taught sexual morality in detail. Each presupposition of the culture that defies the knowledge of Christ needs to be challenged and dealt with.

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2000

Link -

You're right, the situtation isn't totally hopeless. And I would commend you to do the hard work that would be required to put together that book. It would be needed.

There ARE solutions out there. People ARE trying to do good things, and the right things. Unfortunately, we as Christians shoot ourselves in the foot constantly by our own lives. Let's face it. In any given congregation, 50% or more of the male adults are not interested in being Christians at all. They are interested in their businesses (whatever kind it may be). They have whole-heartedly embraced materialism, and THAT is the values being passed to the kids. The sex things is an outgrowth of it.

The 'clergy' are no different either. Look at these boards for a good example. Almost every solution that is offered is shot down. This weekend in Oklahoma is a national Promise Keepers meeting. But what is the attitude shown here towards Promise Keepers? "Unscriptural." The problem is, the majority of "Christian" men in America NEED the basic message of PRomise Keepers. And that message is that men need to be men and not workers, that it is a male responsibility to raise the children (especially the males), that its the man's responsibility to keep the family and marriage intact, and its the man's responsibility to love his wife unconditionally. "But we can't support PK because it was started by a Charismatic, not a Baptist/Church of Christ/[fill in the blank]." "These people do not interpret Scripture like *we* do." "Dangerous because they accept just *anyone*." It seems to me that the majority of "conservative" clergy are more interested in perpetuating their jobs and their group than they are in impacting their world for Jesus Christ.

America is in the mess that it is in primarily because of its clergy. The great revivals of the 1700s and 1800s were started by the clergy. But the revivals of the 1900s to the present were started by laymen. I find that to be very interesting. The church has sold out to the society, and we should not be surprised with the results. I am encouraged that there are a few out there who are pressing on. I really try to ignore the national scene as much as possible because if you look at it, it is very pessimistic. But there is a remnant in America, and they are doing good. Unfortunately, for the most part its not our established churches.

Where was I going with this before I got off track? ::laffs:: Oh yeah. Like has been said many many many times on these boards...the job of the church is to influence the adults, who train the children. This is what will change society. This same formula goes for sexual matters. Adults who believe and act on biblical principles will pass them on to their children, who pass them on to their children... Its not a quick fix. But its the only permanent solution.

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2000

Dr. Jon,

I am saddened by your characterization of several here on this forum in regards to their stance against Promise Keepers. I do not believe the attitude is Unscriptural if one believes that the teaching on salvation at a PK rally is false. The basic message of salvation taught there is faith only, and acceptance of all denominations without thought to whether what they teach is Biblical or not. If I, in my heart of hearts believe that another has not followed the gospelhow could I worship, sing, and pray with them as if nothing were wrongas if they were Christian when I believe they are not. My first responsibility in that case would be to evangelize, to try to convert them, to try to get them to see the complete truth.

I dont remember anyone saying that we do not support promise keepers because it was started by a Charismatic, not a Baptist/Church of Christ//[fill in the blank]." I do not support them becaues they do not teach the truth, they believe salvation comes with mental assent when they say a prayer.

You say: "Dangerous because they accept just *anyone*." In this I believe you have interpreted correctly. At least, I believe PK and others like it are dangerous. Why?? They DO NOT follow the gospel. They teach a partial truth that is so dangerous it will cause many to be lost thinking they were saved.

I know several preachers that would probably fit your definition of conservative. It seems unjust to lump them all together and then say they are more interested in perpetuating their jobs and their group than they are in impacting their world for Jesus Christ. There are several on this board whom I believe do not fit in here either. I am not saying you have not met such, but many are impacting their world for Jesus Christ!!

Jon, if you happened upon a group of people of many different faiths, who claimed to be Christian but according to the Bible you knew they were not, would you not try to evangelize them? Or would you meet with them, worship with them, sing with them, pray with themgiving them the impression that you consider them to be your Christian brothers and sistersand never tell them the complete truth. Lets say these people believe Jesus came to die for them, and that they believe sincerely and wholeheartedly!! BUT, they have not repented of their sins, and they believe that repentance has nothing whatsoever to do with salvation. In factthey believe that even if they never repentthey are still saved and will be safe on the day of judgement. They may even say they have repentednot for the reasons given in the Bible but for some man-made reasonthey repented to show all present their commitment to Christ and to confirm their salvation when they believed.

I pray you would teach them the rest as Aquila and Priscilla did concerning Apollos.

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2000

Michael, Did you have fun in Disney World? I do not believe it is a sin to go there, though it could be for some if it is against their conscience.

It does seem strange to me (and this really did happen) that a body will boycott Disney when Disney has never claimed to be a Christian organization, and yet will bring in faith only teachers and preachers (whose faith is dead according to James) to instruct them on Godly matters. I never could make sense of that.

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2000

D. Lee,

Great points all around! Thanks!

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2000

Marc,

I agree with you that it is hard on kids and even on their parents when you do not approve of many of the things their friends are doing. It is the same in my family. The pressure from others, our own kids, and society to give in to what is popular is great. I encourage you to continue to do what you know is right and good for your family.

TV and movies are subjects that come up often because our children's friends are usually allowed to watch many things they can't. I agree with Robin that a lot of TV, and I would include movies and music have had a negative impact on our nation.

Robin,

Thank you!

-- Anonymous, September 18, 2000

Danny,

I would agree to a certain point. We did homeschool until recently when we moved for various reasons we no longer do, though may one day again... we'll see where the Lord directs.

However, the problem I see, at least currently is not within the school, but within the church! (Yes those kids are in public school, but bring it to the church where even homeschooled kids are influenced)

BTW... I think that we can isolate our children too much as well. I know a family that will not even send their children to Christian camp because they have heard of things happening there and of children going that may not be "Christians" so they isolate them... one day they will no longer be able to protect them.

Another argument for public school is the fact that we need a Christian influence in the schools. We must live "in" the world, but not be "of" the world.

I'm not trying to argue, just throwing some thoughts out that I have struggled with for quite some time now.

-- Anonymous, September 19, 2000

Unbelieving kids in school need the gospel, too.

-- Anonymous, September 19, 2000

Danny,

Just curious.... How would you counsel a recent High School graduate who is planning to go on to college and pursue an Education degree?

-- Anonymous, September 20, 2000