Well the panic buying has started here in Northampton. Just had a fella on the phone from Newark near Nottingham, asking if we had petrol down here. He has 3/4 of a tank left to get to a meeting down here and he was concerned that he wouldn't be able to fil up and get home!

Unfortunately if I run out of petrol I am in the position where I could probably walk to work quicker than the time it takes to drive in.

-- Anonymous, September 11, 2000

Answers

It's got a bit silly down here as well. I've got enough petrol in the bike to last 3 wks. If push comes to shove I can cycle to work. I might even get fit!

-- Anonymous, September 11, 2000

Well after years of subsidising low motoring and petrol taxes to the detriment of our health and quality of life, us tax-paying, non- drivers are having a good chortle at the queues outside the petrol stations.

Madness! Petrol costs too much so lets demonstrate our consumer power by queueing for an hour to fill up. Sad, very sad.

-- Anonymous, September 11, 2000

Dunno about the rest of you, but all this protest stuff has right got me revolutionary juices going.

The peoples' flag is deepest red...(please ignore the makem-esque connotaions)

-- Anonymous, September 11, 2000

So this won't affect you in any way Dread? Everyone here at our office needs the car to do a job. One bloke has to go to Bristol on Wednesday and is having to fill up today because he is not guaranteed of getting any petrol in Bristol, or here for that matter.

I agree with you on the madness of consumer power increasing the purchases 300% of a commodity they think is too highly priced, but it highlights the reliance on cars.

I wouldn't be laughing too loudly because if the government backs down on this they will have to recuperate the money from somewhere and it is more likely to hit your pocket.

-- Anonymous, September 11, 2000

Plenty trains to Bristol DB.

You're right of course, the govt will cave in, reduce the tax on petrol and the non-drivers will have to subsidise it. Don't know why the driving fraternity think they are so hard done by.

-- Anonymous, September 11, 2000

Plenty trains indeed but see it from this point of view. You have to take with you a cardboard box full of paperwork, briefcase and site safety equipment on a day like today which is hot and sweaty. Changing at either Coventry, Birmingham or maybe even one of the London stations.

As opposed to air conditioned travel listening to your own music or talking to people on the phone without being sneered at and leaving site when you want to and not linked to some timetable you can't rely on. You can see the advantages and I know train travel has many advantages but in some cases it just isn't practical. We do do the trains to our London sites due to the speed but we have to travel light, which doesn't help.

-- Anonymous, September 11, 2000

DB do you take the train when it is practical? Or do you jump into the car anyway? If you can walk to work. Why don't you? Are you afraid that you may have to ingest the same fumes that we pedestrian non drivers are forced to :-)

-- Anonymous, September 11, 2000

Hahaha....They've ran out at a couple of petrol stations here....the remaining ones have large queues outside them.....how bloody pathetic!!

The government put the price up again and everyone wants to buy it when recently everyone wanted to not buy it as a protest....

-- Anonymous, September 11, 2000

Hiya bake , going to Soton again this year ?

-- Anonymous, September 11, 2000

Bake,

Yes I've aleady said that we take the train when it is practical and from Nothampton to Morden, South London it is no 'nice journey'. There will be worse journies I know but I reckon it's crap.

I have to take my car to work. I have a company car which my company has provided me with due to the amount of travelling I do. I pay for that privelidge so I'm not leaving it at home. Besides what would you do walk in then walk home and pick up the car if you need it.

I don't use it that often outside of work so I don't just jump in the car and pop off down the corner shop. exercise does me good and driving is so hectic where I live it just ain't worth it.

-- Anonymous, September 11, 2000

IMO the diabolically crap state of the public transport system in the UK is far more of a reason to get worked up about than the price of petrol. But then I'm one of them tree-huggers too :-)

-- Anonymous, September 11, 2000

I drive to work, but if there was a convenient alternative I'd take it. Cycling is out, 'cos I'm not doing a 25 mile round trip, and likewise walking is out. Nearest bus to me either takes a slow route to the tube and then it's 14 stops, change and come back along a further 5 stops and then a 15 minute walk. Or, a bus through to Acton and change again...and it takes 1 1/2 just to get to Acton (I've had to do that before). Or, get the Paddington train and come back out 3 stops (costs #15 - I kid ye not) or I could get it cheaper and change at Ealing Broadway...then 6 stops and change 2ce.

So I turn to my car and get pissed off that so many others do the same, drive discourtiously / dangerously and assist (with me) to make London the unbreathable and unlivable dump that it is.

-- Anonymous, September 11, 2000

The debate about car use/not car use is a little too flimsy for my liking. The malaise spreads far deeper IMHO and is another result of Thatcherism.

My situation for instance. I work in the South West and must live here in order that I can keep my family fed. I cannot afford to live in the city I work in. Hence I live 30 miles from work. This distance is set by having somewhere we can afford, and it being a nice enough place to bring my kids up in.

It takes me (and my car share buddies) 45 minutes to drive to work. On public transport would cost us *each* 9 pounds per day, and take, door-to-door, 2 hours.

There are millions like me who are then faced with a choice. Drive to work, spend 2 1/2 hours more with my kids. Or not.

The great tragedy is that there is a train station two minutes walk from my house, and one two minutes away from work. Oh, Thatcher closed them down and handed the railway services over to folk who are only interested in share value so they're not used.

Happy to pay the tax on petrol *if* I'm sure that it's getting used for.......a viable alternative to get to work. Doesn't look like it yet.

-- Anonymous, September 11, 2000

If a fair percentage gave up their cars for public transport the systems would be more unbearable than now. More people on already overcrowded services creating more hassle for everyone.

The root of all evil is too many people, too close together!

-- Anonymous, September 11, 2000

You know I had a devil of a time getting hold of some Swiss chard for a lasagne dish I was preparing last night. I guess the petrol shortage is having its affect everywhere.

-- Anonymous, September 11, 2000

Oh, and another thing.

How come we have the crappest public transport in Europe, the most expensive cars and petrol, at the bottom end of all known league tables for education and healthcare, and for a wide range of people, a quite spectacular direct tax burden, including NI contributions that any of us under the age of 40 can guarantee will end in a pension worth precisely #0.00p

Does *anyone* have the first idea where the money goes?

-- Anonymous, September 11, 2000

Dunx,

Think that you've over-egged the direct tax burden thing. UK has lowest direct taxation in the whole EU.

-- Anonymous, September 11, 2000

It's all getting a bid mad down here in the Midlands. One guy who owns a garage in Derby has put his petrol up to #1.99 a litre - that's eleven quid a gallon! There's always some bar steward out to make a fast buck at the expense of the ignorant masses!

-- Anonymous, September 11, 2000

I reckon the sooner we've sucked all the crude out the ground the better, cos while there's even just a gallon left to be 'extracted', there'll still be too much vested world interest in keeping the greedy b*****d oil companies happy to even contemplate looking for some way of using all that raw energy that's pouring out the sky every single day.

The oil companies must be chortling out loud that the clowns running things here have distracted people's attention from the real problem by clobbering us with such a huge petrol tax. Talk about playing right into their hands. Surprise, surprise, it sickens me to my toes.

But apart from that, I'm still in a canny mood from Saturday. :-))

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

The root of all evil is too many people, too close together You want to try and live in Tokyo, christ I get the train in the rush hour in a morning and don't need to hold onto anything as it's impossible to fall over and then it's almost as bad when I return home, no matter how late it is. I once got a train in the rush hour in London and didn't notice it. But then again Tokyo is Tokyo and will hopefully never be repeated anywhere.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

DB I was just asking mate. It was only a little joke, hence the smilie.

Sting, Yes I am trying to get two tickets for me and wor lass but will know later in the week. Do you want to go to the lovely quiet pub that I suggested or to that noisy dive you lot went to where you can't get a pint for an hour and a half.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

Well here in Cheshire you can't get unleaded for love nor money! I've half a tank of petrol left and when that's gone I'm walking. Amazing that the protests are all about Derv prices buit it's the U/L that runs out. That says something about the great panic buying British public! I reckon the schools will close by the end of the week unless suplies are restored. BTW I do support the action. I can get really angry thinking about the price I pay for petrol, food, fags, booze compared to say Greece, where I holiday regularly. Indirect taxation? - Stuff it!

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

The panic buying started here in the South on Saturday! By yesterday morning, there was a two mile traffic jam to our little petrol station in Bashley. The queue was incredibly slow moving, the weather hot and humid, and I have to say tempers were flaring! Not everyone in the jam was looking for petrol, on a small country road there wasn`t an easy way to turn around and try to find another route, and had there been an accident, or a house fire in the village, there would also have been no way for the emergency vehicles to get through - contingency plans or not! Needless to say, there isn`t a queue this morning, because there isn`t any petrol left! Amazingly, some people had driven the 10 - 12 miles from Poole in order to put #10 worth of petrol in there cars, and they had had to queue for over an hour in order to do it - what madness!

Yesterday also saw the beginnings of a shopping frenzy, with people buying bread, milk, eggs, fresh produced etc. in bulk. The seige mentality has taken hold in a big way to-day, and I am told that the supermarkets are heaving.

Two things annoy me intensely. Firstly, I totally agree that we are being well and truly fleeced with the tax on petrol. BUT, I object strongly to the way this protest is being made. I listened to a lorry driver on the news yesterday telling the world that they are taking this action on behalf of everyone in the country, and that the country is 100 per cent behind them. Well, I am sorry if this goes against the grain, but I for one am not behind them. Even if the Government does bend to pressure, I suspect they would only reduce the price of derv, fine for the transport companies, farmers etc., and fair enough for them as they will have achieved their aims. But I have no doubt that that lost income for the Treasury will be re- couped elsewhere and someone else will be paying the price for their gains. I do not believe that the benefits of lower transport costs will be passed on to the consumer - though there may be some pretence that it is.

Meanwhile, there must be hundreds of businesses around the country who are struggling with ecconomic factors, besides the cost of petrol. Just locally I know of two building sites where they have laid off brickies because they have run out of materials, small manufacturers who have had to close down the production lines for lack of supplies. It may only last a few days, but severe penalty clauses for non-delivery of goods, letters of credit running out etc., can easily be enough to push a Company over the edge in today`s desparately difficult market conditions.

The second thing that drives me mad, is this panic buying. Living in an area with a high number of retired people, I can guarantee that at least fifty percent of the petrol that has been bought this weekend, will still be in their cars at Christmas! I very nearly fell out with my father yesterday, who was telling me that it was about time the country made a stand. He had also been first in the queue to fill his car up to the brim, and his two giant petrol cans! How his perspective has changed since he retired. Had this happened ten year ago when he was still running a business, he would have been jumping up and down and tearing his hair out! Different circumstances, I know, but I remember him being apoplectic during the `three day week` crisis because his ability to conduct his business was being compromised.

Sorry about the rant folks! I will defend anyone`s right to protest and speak their minds, but I just hope they realise that they could put as many people out of work and they hope to keep in work.(:o|

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

The price of petrol has gone up three times since the budget. Tax has stayed at the same rate. The Government set the tax rate at the budget to reap in an amount of revenue. Looking at it very simply, why can't the Government implement a sliding scale tax on the fuel, so they still get the same revenue from sales but the cost of fuel will not be solely down to them.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

I've got enough petrol to drive to Heathrow tomorrow evening and catch my flight to the Toon - and can use convenient public transport (the Metro) over the weekend to get around. Can't wait! If I'm really lucky I may have enough petrol to drive back from Heathrow on Monday.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is going on. Is there a fuel shortage or is everyone protesting about the fuel prices? The fuel price thing hit the states two months ago but it seems to have sorted itself out now. I am not one for subscribing to the media monster so unless it has something to do with the toon I don't read it. News thesedays tends to be a depressing way to muddle through a day, so many people getting shot or shot at I would rather keep whatever faith I have in humanity left out of the reaches of the media.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

I, like most people don't like the idea of us paying so much for fuel, OK so the government could use their spare billions to reduce the tax in the short term, but if there isn't enough coming in in taxes overall then other taxes will have to go up.

I wonder just which taxes people would prefer to go up if there was a reduction in duty on petrol? Knocking 5pence off a litre of fuel would cost 2 and a half billion each year in lost revenue. The government would proberbly have to raise income tax by a couple of percent or put VAT up to 20%.

On a personal note, I could walk to work, if I needed to and long term my little high street shop would probably benefit from more local shoppers, rather than going to the metro centre people would start going back to their high street. In the short term though trade is awfull, people seem to have spent all their spare cash filling up there tanks over the last few days.

anyone want a micro scooter for #59.99

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

Micro scooter? possibly!

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

OK, so you say that if petrol prices are reduced, then they would have to raise the money somewhere else, (ie Income Tax/VAT) however, the crux of the SST's argument is, it is not his fault, (it never is) it is the fault of OPEC for putting the price of crude up so high.

Well hey ho....the current budget and fiscal policy was formulated on the fact that Crude NSO was set at a specific price, but is his own words, the price of crude has risen, and now, because of that the NSO income is some #19billion more that the Jock Get had accounted for, so there is that extra money floating around in our economy, but where is it going.

2.5p off the price of a litre of petrol would cost #8.5billion, still a clear NSO profit of #11.5billion......but hey SST....don't let facts get in the way of a good blag will you!

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

Umm. My previous rant to be expanded on. Do any of us have any idea of where our tax money goes?

Is there any transparency?

What I see in relation to fuel tax is; Duncan buys fuel. For each 81.9 pence litre, 64.7 pence goes directly to the treasury. Fine, where now? Does it go to pay for hospitals? Schools? Roads? Other transport?

I'm pretty frustrated that it's not practical to use public transport where I live (as outlined in my earlier post), but would be more frustrated if my fuel tax money went to subsidise this; why should I be legally compelled to give money to a PLC that runs a train service (and in my case, one implicated in a couple of rail disasters), and *still* doesn't give me a service.

I guess my fundamental issue is that we need to have complete transparency and traceback for all tax and spending presented in a way that normal folk can deal with.

Was in hospital with my knackered leg a while ago, and got roped into the 'Wrong Trousers' appeal. This is co-ordinated charity fund-raising. It's not raising money for some 'luxury' items, nope it's to raise *80* million pounds to complete the building of the new Children's Hospital. Why isn't this funded completely? Can and should the people of Bristol who've raised this money turn sick children who aren't from Bristol away?

I contracted in Oxford a while ago, and one day, one of my teeth fell out. I rang my local dentist, who fitted me in and fixed me up. Marvellous. Oh, the bill for 175 quid. Not marvellous. Rationalised it in a social kind of way that said 'well I thought I'd paid for that with my tax money, but I can kind of afford it, and if the tax I pay goes to help someone get their teeth fixed who cannot afford it then that's fine.'

Had a chat with the dentist who then informed me that there wasn't a single NHS dentist in all of Oxfordshire, and that *everyone* had to pay.

Are we grown up enough as a population to be able to handle more information? Should we elect a government and remove ourselves from responsibility, and blame them? More fundamentally, do we, or do we not have the right to voice concerns about things at any other time than at the ballot box every five years?

Are there any ecomonmists among us who can explain, genuinely where the money goes?

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

Dunx,

As an aside where abouts in Bristol do you reside? Anywhere near Kingswood?

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

DB,

Yep, not far really; 4 miles or so I guess. We live on the North side towards the ringroad. Place called Winterbourne.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

Dunx,

Ever been to that new leisure complex at Kingswood opposite ASDA? I was involved in the Project Management of the development and I am at this moment preparing the contract for phase 2 which is four restaurants and a health and fitness suite!

Had a cracking day down there once. McDonald's breakfast followed by private showing of Sleepy Hollow in the Cinema, lunch and a couple of pints in the new pub followed by an afternoon of ten-pin bowling, all for free!

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

Db

Oo the delights of Longwell Green retail park. ASDA megastore, B&Q warehouse, and a cinema able to seat 170000000 teenagers, all with mobiles and popcorn.

Congratulations on bringing hell to earth.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

ah We weren't responsible for the Asda, B&Q etc just the screaming teenager haven across the roundabout! Sorry about that!

By the way the same developer is looking at somewhere in the Toon for a similar development!! Soon we will have screaming teenagers in every town in England!

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

Duncan - the Government certainly doesn`t think we`re grown up enough - in fact, I`d go further, the Government thinks the majority of the voting public are basically, stupid, disinterested, selfish, easily manipulated morons, who will sit up and beg for a pathetic `tidbit` of a tax cut, and wag their tails with delight when they announce `no increase in tax on whiskey`! How else could they possibly think that they can get away with stupendously idiotic, and brief, statements such as `there is no crisis`! I believe that there are plenty of people in this country capable of seeing the `bigger picture` and dealing with `long term stratagies`. And I do think that there should be some means of voicing public opinion,other than every five years.

Transparency would be marvellous, but no Government would be able to cope with the accountability which would come with it. Actually, I`m not sure I could deal with knowing exactly how much of a hard earned # disappears into the Treasury, and worse still, how many times the remained of that # will be taxed again and again. I think I would probably become a manic depressive.(:o|

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

I don't necessarily want to know or even care where most of my tax money goes....lets face reality, not many governments are that transparent...they are all pretty much as bad as each other...I just don't like getting ripped off for the sake of it by a little sh*t like the SST.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

Was it Kirkegaard or Hegel that posited that the only way to arrive at appropriate government was to take a committee of citizens and get them to formulate a constitution that was fair, equal and transparent to every citizen. The motives of the committee could be ensured to be pure by adding the rider that every member of the committee would die immediately that the constitution was signed and that the members would be immediately reincarnated. They wouldn't know, however, whether they'd come back rich, poor, man or woman.

Think Buddha had the same idea, and the French attempted to formulate their constitution using the principle. I'm pretty sure it was Hegel.....

Oh, I'd forgotten. We don't have a formal constitution here that specifies a citizen's immutable rights do we?

Oh well. Best do what I'm told then.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

FACT ONE: For the vast majority of drivers, a car is a luxury item, very convenient but not essential.

FACT TWO: The tax on petrol only pays for a fraction of the damage, disruption and death caused by the motor car.

I therefore object to my taxes subsidising the luxury items of a selfish minority (only a third of adults in this country have daily access to a car).

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

FACT TWO is complete bollocks...

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

FACT ONE: For the vast majority of drivers, a car is a luxury item, very convenient but not essential.

Come on dread, the car is a viable (until lately), more luxurious convenient way of completing a necessary task, getting to and from work. For a few it may be a luxury but in the whole they are used for getting to work.

I've said it on here before that if everybody threw their cars away this country's public transport system would not be able to suppport the required movement of the masses. It can barely put up with it now. Especially with the geographical nature of the country.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

Well expressed opinions dread; you are indeed entitled to them. As are the folk who are protesting about petrol now. It'd sure be nice to see the numbers that said:

Number of people owning and using cars daily and *total* amount of tax revenue they generate.

vs

Number of people not owning or using cars daily and the *total* amount of tax revenue they generate.

We could then break down how and where everybody's tax was spent, and see what we get (see previous comment), and make a valid judgement on who are a selfish minority or not.

Me, I get selfish when it comes down to seeing my son grow up or not.

Given that the nation and it's citizens fail to provide me as a tax payer an appropriately worthy mechanism for acheiving this (i.e. a train system that doesn't take 2hrs 4minutes), then I must take action in the only ways I know how.

Protest at the lack of public transport, and in the meantime, selfishly drive a car.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

Not interested in getting into a political argument, amazed at some of the comments on here tho, Wow you have alternate ways of getting to work , thats a bonus, tube , trains , buses. No-one has mentioned that we are a oil producing nation, offshore from where I live, my petrol is still higher than yours, so there!!, also where I work you would be amazed at the amount of gas flowing thro-- mainly for down souf and beyond, no gas in the village mind you , 12 miles away, still cut peats in some places, 85% of the countries energy is controlled from Grampian area, for Grampian substitute London sorry. Dread just down from my cottage is a super country-side walk, 35 miles, linking villages with market towns and then Aberdeen, wee bit overgrown in places ,lack of maintenance etc, they tell me it was something else till Beeching scrapped the railway, cars they are not a luxury, they are a bliddy nessessity, plenty spaces in the country if you want to rough it at times. Being an island has a lot going for it, in certain instances like now it becomes a problem ,It should never have got this far, The French calling us cowards sealed it for me, simple as that.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

Can't resist throwing in my two-pennys worth here. A few random observations:

1)During the 1984/5 miners strike the government of the day, with full backing from most of the media, didn't hesitate to use draconian measures to tackle picketing and ensure coal supplies got through. Given the legal armoury Thatcher left behind why the hesitancy to similarly take on the road-lobby.

2)The UK has the lowest level of direct taxation anywhere in the EU. Unless Britain wants its struggling public sector to get worse it has to be funded from somewhere. Given the overwhelming evidence of the damage the internal-combustion engine causes to the environment I see nothing wrong in high taxes on petrol.

3)That Britains public transport system is a national disgrace. Expensive, unreliable, and shoddy.

4) Blockades by angry lorry-drivers, petrol pumps running out, etc is hitting France and Belgium, and is beginning to bite here in Holland. This is a Europe-wide phenomenon, so no more chauvinistic digs at the French from the tabloids please.

5) Manchester United PLC are apparently worried just how far their attendence will dip for their next game hee,hee.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

Spot on Stevo.

16 years ago, the government, the police, businesses and the media joined together to CRUSH communities complaining about jobs.

Now we have a bunch of SUBSIDIZED farmers [have you met a poor one?] and assorted lorry-drivers complaining about high fuel prices.

Selfish wankers. No sympathy. Get on your BIKES. Get on the trains. WALK.

min

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

Rik

Is it a genuine Micro ?? I need 2 for the bairns.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

Stevo

You said - Given the overwhelming evidence of the damage the internal- combustion engine causes to the environment I see nothing wrong in high taxes on petrol.

If the Government hammered that line I'd go along with them - they don't so I don't. They just want as much dosh as they can get. They're laughing all the way in their Jags.

I want a Government that doesn't just react but steers things in the right direction - I know they can't get it right all the time but this lot have lost the plot.

At least Maggie said what she would do and did it - TB needs to shut the rest of his whingers up and get it sorted. They could easily give us a tax rebate for a few weeks that would use up their surplus and work out a way forward in the interim.

At the moment the whole country is up in arms re the high price. If everybody was convinced that it was valid there wouldn't be a problem.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2000

I take your point Josh that this didn't fall out of a clear blue sky and there is a lot of genuine anger. However from what I've seen Britain hasn't experienced anything like the level of the French disputes and yet the pumps are running dry. Why? Well I don't want to get conspiritorial but the oil companies aren't exactly showing much determination to get supplies through, and are privately probably delighted by the whole phenomenon. They've long been opposed to the policies on petrol tax by BOTH the Major and Blair governments. I would hate to see them get their way on the back of protests that, were they made by striking Trade Unionists, Reclaim the Streets, or Anti-Road Protests would soon have middle England clamouring for tough police action.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

I'm with Dr.Bill - the sooner all the planet's fossil fuels are pissed away into the atmosphere the better.

Question is, what life on the Planet Earth will still be around to appreciate the benefits of cleaner energy ? Or will they be busy sheltering underground from the extreme weather patterns; and the lack of shade and air quality once the critical mass of forest logging is exceeded; and cancers caused by ozone depletion; and dry mouthed and hungry from the spread of salinity in the water table affecting fresh water and food production.

It doesn't really matter if you agree with me, or if you're sitting there thinking "bleeding heart greenie". What matters is whether we start taking action in time, collectively and individually. The ticking of the clock is getting louder !

No, having thought about it, I think the price of petrol REALLY matters and we should all get REALLY focused on it, ignoring everything else ....

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

Min, I cannot believe you uttered that crap above, what`s the problem? no Red Robbo, Arfur Scargill, Tommy Sheridan to vent your feelings upon, how many farmers have you met apart from the ones playing at the game!! Interesting here at Exxon-Mobil plans being drawn up to ensure that key personell get in to work only include, shift operators one mech, one elect, security, (super goverment economic key point) max about 15, no suits, no quality management, still make the nom and over a million profit each 24hrs, story in there somewhere if one looks hard enough.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

Min,

The reason that you haven't met a poor farmer is that most of them have been put out of business and are no longer farmers. All that are left are the same as any other industry i.e. The big players.

Been held up by a tractor in the way to work this morning then, ah never mind!

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

Loony, Not that it really matters, but did you read 'Dr' for 'Pit'. I can't find a posting from Dr.Bill in a similar vein to my V.Meldrew posting, and I'd have been interested in Dr. Bill's view on the topic.

Incidentally, there's now a hole in the ozone layer at the S.Pole as big as Oz, so we'd better be careful - if this petrol farce continues it could become another wonder of the natural world that becomes conspicuous by it's absence. :->>

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

The motor car has been around a long time. Many people have based their lifestyle around it. Hence they have moved out of the congested cities to the country where there is little or no public transport, no local shops etc, because nobody used them. I've never had a car so I always live within walking distance of work or on a direct bus route.

The folk who moved out of the cities did so to in part to escape the bad air and traffic that they add to every day on their way into work and then back home to their secluded little village.

Running out of petrol is a comeuppance for these people. No one's forced to live in the country, they choose the lifestyle and the car to go with it. They should come and live with the rest of us in the big bad city. Loads of buses.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

Dread,

Where would they live? The bus system couldn't cope with the influx of people, neither could any other form of public transport and it would take years if not decades to get it up to speed.

Stop spouting bollocks and suggest how, within five years could this country go from a predominatly car using nation to one which uses public transport? Dig up more fields and make more railway tracks? See hoiw the soap dodging tree hippes react to that! It won't be as peaceful as the current demos and it would probably cost more to police.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

Sorry Dread, but I don`t agree with your argument. I don`t think that the non car owning tax payer is particularly subsidising private car owners. The fact that you have chosen to always live within walking distance of work is admirable - but you are also very lucky that you have managed to do that.

I agree that some of your tax may well go towards maintaining the roads, but though you may not drive on them, many of life`s essentials are provided via road! Also, the car is not a luxury for most people, it is an expensive essential. I for one would be delighted to have an alternative, and I think every effort should be made to improve public transport - but it`s not going to happen overnight, and I suspect a large increase in taxation would be required to make any real progress in that direction. (:o)

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

The amount spent on roads by the govenment is no where near the amount gained from the tax on fuel.I can't remember the figures of the top of my head but you'd be amazed. Something like revenue 28 Billion and only 5 billion spent on roads.

Even when they have paid for policing the roads etc etc where has the rest of the money gone. What do we pay Road Fund Licence for?

If it's not benefiting the car driver then it must be benefiting the non-car drivers, YES?

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

Sounds logical to me Mr. DeBuilder!(:o)

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

If you start getting into the where taxes go debate its a minefield. Duty on tabs doesn't go to the NHS etc..

We need to cut down emissions of greenhouse gases now, we therefore need to reduce the consumption of fossil fuels. High taxation on fuel doesn't achieve that unless people have a workable alternative. They don't (at least in the UK) hence the kind of crap we're in now. I'm one of Loony's greenies but you've got to be pragmatic. Give people a cheaper, cleaner alternative and gradually they'll use it. Too much stick and not enough carrot.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

I'm not talking about the money spent on roads but the far larger amount spent on the CONSEQUENCES of the motor car - all our asthmatic kids, cleaning our buildings, mopping up after accidents etc etc. To cover for these consequences would mean doubling the present tax on petrol. It's true, I saw it on the telly:)

At the risk of sounding rude it is typical of the selfishness of the driving fraternity that they can only see road building as the natural cost of their tax, not the consequences of their insistence on having their own little tin box to get to work.

I'm off back to me tepee.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

You're right Tom,

At the present time the public transport system is not/will not be big enough to cope if we all decided to use it. Alternatives like the liquid gas cars are on the up because they represent a greener efficient alternative to the petrol driven car. Sales of liquid gas cas are rising quickly and will continue to rise.

What can you do when this fella, places a 3% more increase on company diesel cars because they go to the pumps less often.

It will take more time to change to alternatives forms of transport and in the meantime 'they' have f###ed up by not getting the public transport system up to scratch.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

Dread, Why do people leave the Golden City , in some cases for the country, majority for the even bigger, smellier city, ie London,one word pal, work and in doing so provide a better life and more opprtunities for their family. I moved the family North to Aberdeen cos I reckoned with that black smelly stuff that was coming ashore, plus the gas to keep the country warm, not forgetting the by products you will be aquainted with butane etc, not forgetting the feedstocks, A lot of hard work went into this, lot of lives lost, lot of injuries, this is the real world man!!, Do you think Geordie Nudd likes the idea of saying goodbye to his family, travelling overnight, for a 6am check in, fixed wing to Lerwick or chopper direct to platform, the novelty wears off, the danger is always there. Sitting behind a desk, working a pc, in a air conditioned office for I guess top salary, as I suspect a lot on here do, I ask the question "Is it easier to be green" , from that angle it certainly appears so. We play by the rules in the UK and get shafted for doing so, fishing, farming, you name it , lets break a few now and then eh.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

A WINDFALL from rising oil prices means Gordon Brown could afford to cut petrol prices by 8p a litre, or 36p a gallon, write David Smith and Michael Prescott. Financial experts say the government's figures, approved by the National Audit Office, show that the Treasury gets #330m a year extra for every $1 rise in the world oil price. Oil has risen from $22 to $34 a barrel since the budget in March, equivalent to a boost of #4 billion a year - enough to enable Brown to cut petrol tax by 8p a litre.

We pay less than any other European country, apart from Germany, for pre-tax prcied petrol, yet our petrol is the most expensive in Europe!

Something doesn't add up in all of this. I appreciate that there are too many cars on the roads, but as has been discussed there is no decent alternatives for the number of people who drive cars. The balance has been upset by years of Government and only now are we starting to realise it.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

Buff,

>>We play by the rules in the UK and get shafted for doing so, fishing, farming, you name it , lets break a few now and then eh<<

I think we've already done our fair share of rule breaking. Remember BSE (not to mention the so-called human variant CJD), scrapies, swine vasicular disease and salmonella in chickens and eggs (which came first, Edwina?). Not to mention E-coli which took out a number of your fellow countrymen recently. As for fish, we're leading the field in the development of a number of farm-bred bacteria which we're almost ready to pass onto the rest of the unsuspecting world.

But look on the bright side. We're almost clean in the GM stakes...............

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

err... don't eat French beef toon expat. They have a far worse BSE record than us and it's still on the increase. Strange that they're happy not buying safer British beef!

Anyho ... Dread: >>"I agree that some of your tax may well go towards maintaining the roads"

16% of petrol duty is spent on the road network. The lowest in Europe. At least the French road taxes go to support the infrastructure.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

fair point Geordie lad, but them dastardly frogs say that we invented it first, so don't blame ze victim. Eeez not fair.

But here in Italy all is clean.................uuuurgh

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

Hands up Toon Expat, I cannot argue against well known documented facts, tho Edwina was talking crap, I kept 9O hens once over, my customers would say, "Cannot beat a free range egg"", rot they would not know the difference, and the checks done on battery kept hens and eggs are much more rigorous than Buff cleaning a double yoker and selling them at work. Still if ones constitution can withstand ample Tiger Beer, Nasi Goreng from a dirty roadside stall in Nee Soon Singapore, is there a case for saying we are getting to fussy, and my daughter is the Cynth Bucket of her avenue, nowt wrang with hygeine, mind you, but the resistance is falling aint it, Back to cod liver oil Scotts Emulsion and tin baths/outside netties. Bah

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

I've heard that theory a number of times now Buff and It's left me wondering about it also....we are definitely getting more and more picky with our food but at the same time seem to be suffering more and more food related ailments....

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

Maybe there is something in my Gran`s old expression about `a peck of dirt did nobody any harm`.

ps. That`s not the one who used to sit on a hotwater bottle and wear rubber gloves during thunderstorms!(:o)

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

Buff, Gav and Galaxy have just got me thinking about health, efficiency and muck.

A couple of years ago a European survey of soap consumption found that the French used less soap per person/year than the other citizens of EU Member States (but they compensated by using more deodorants.....)

Could this, perchance, be a factor in their wholly unwarranted recent successes in the beautiful game?

Aaaah! Determinism. Nowt like it.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

Living in London, no one really needs a car and it;s funny to see so many hysterical people

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

DB/Buff,

my uncle was a farmer [yorkshire], my grandad a miner [ne].

I just feel that where once we used to protest about jobs [and look what happened], people can now only get arsed when it affects luxury items like a car. cos that's exactly what it is.

I don't feel sympathy for taxi drivers, farmers, mini-cab firms or oil companies - i've seen prices go up since this dispute started - not cos of tax, cos they'll rip people off by saying "there's a shortage".

On the other hand, i don't think the government are above criticism or are handling it well either but what would you do?

Also, it's FACT that farmers get subsidised to the hilt from the govt & EU. Where did the money from N.Sea oil go in the 80s? on tax cuts for the rich. where did the money saved from privatisation go? On tax cuts for the rich. Oh, and indirect taxation was introduced because.....?

Why are we in this mess now? Because the Tories horrendously mis-managed the economy for nearly 20 years with a short-termist approach where the rich got richer and the poor, well, they could stand on picket lines [real ones] and get beaten up by hired thugs they pretended were the police. Seems to me, it's not the ordinary man in the street who's standing on those blockades.

Which side were you on boys?

I'm sorry if this sounds 'angry' but yeah, you've riled me. I don't find calling anyones opinions "crap" particularly respectful.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

Suddenly the miners are heroes to those perpertrating these irrational thoughtless actions. What hypocrisy. The farmers and hauliers have shown themselves to be amongst the most self interested and dangerous sections of the community willing to take risks on our health, cutting corners, damaging the environment and expecting the rest of us to pick up the bill. Car driving is a luxury - it destroys more than it creates in the long term. We have to pay for that and I reckon that we do not pay enough for the damage we are now causing. We are a thoughtless generation still feeding off the selfish, shallow ethos of Thatcher and off the cowardice of our politicians.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

There's one thing I cannot get me head round about this whole business. Usually, if an item is too expensive, folk wont buy it. By common consent petrol is too expensive yet daft beggars are queueing all round the town to buy it!

I am no lover of Blair (or Hague or any other Westminster Wallah) but he must not give in on this issue. We live in an elective democracy where we have a universal franchise. Taking to the streets is not the way to bring about change. We do it through the ballot box.

Also, can anyone remember a more blatant example of the pernicious effect of the popular media on the behaviour of the masses. It's bloody madness. The queueing for fuel was bad enough but the food hoarding is barmy in the extreme. About half a mile from my house there is a 24 hour Tesco. They were cleaned out of bread in no time this morning. Why? Because people feared for the deliveries. What is so funny about this is that there is a huge bakery RIGHT NEXT DOOR. The could chuck the damn loaves over the wall!

Anyway, I drove to Cambridge and back from Stoke last night to watch a footy match (complete waste of time but that's another story!). I bought petrol on the M6 at midnight and was the only car at the pumps. Crisis? What crisis?!

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

Good job we have a common interest on this BBs to hold us all together - some pretty big differences of opinion appearing on this thread. (:o)

That was my impersonation of Clarky the Peacemaker!(:o)

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

but he must not give in on this issue. We live in an elective democracy

I bet that exactly the first thing that was in the minds of the poll tax protesters as they took Central London apart......

and who was the first person to jump to their defence and say that they had a perfect right to voice their opinion and show their annoyance at the sitaution....yeah, you've guessed it....The Sedgefield Slaptwat

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2000

Not convinced all this elective democracy crap is worth the paper it's printed on. 'They'd' much prefer us to stay the docile sheep we are and just let 'them' get on with greasing the slide to oblivion.

I see nowt wrong with putting politicians back in their place. If Blair had even half a brain, he'd be treading a lot more carefully than he is now. Thank god there are still a few left with the guts to say 'Enough', even if it is more desparation than anything else. More power to their elbows.

It isn't a case of 'People will die if the protestors keep this up', it's a case of 'People will die if Blair keeps it up'. This emotional blackmail on his part is just as bad as the reason this started in the first place. The petrol tax is just a dead easy way to raise revenue, same as the taxes on fags and booze. I don't see why we should be that surprised that hardly any of the income is fed back to the infra-structure that generated it.

And I ain't an anarchist, I just think there has to be a better way than the system we have (and every other so called democracy in the world has) which seems to me to be based wholly on greed and vested interest, where the majority of the people have the least say, until they're backed into a corner.

-- Anonymous, September 14, 2000

I reckon there is a better way as well Victor - the setting up of the independent state of Geordieland. If we all live within 10 miles of the Holy City and build a big wall round the rest we could go to work on donkeys and be self-sufficient in broon ale and stotties. What else could a body ask for?

-- Anonymous, September 14, 2000

Min, Get a bliddy grip and read "your opinions", from behind the safety of your keyboard you have the affront to call farmer and truck drivers "selfish wankers"!!!, you are a brave lad, when I posted that I thought your opinions were crap, I should have used the Geordie vernicular but I felt this was to strong, rhymes with kite. WHO ARE YOU BOYS WITH??? Well we will forget about the miners strike as being an ex pit -lad I may be excused of bias, remember the construction strike, I was happy to put #500 of my own money to setting up a strike HQ in the Toon, For one week I was happy to be involved in orgainising the buses leaving from beside the Strawberry to put pressure on the non strikers, over 70 Irishmen working on Gateshead High St, cash in hand, no protective clothing, no safety policy. young muck drivers on my job, Gateshead Western By Pass who were being exploited, shopfitting joiners in Fenwicks, 10 of em, marching proudly from Scotswood Road to the Town Moor, to listnen to inflammoraty speeches reminiscent of the real aul Durham Miners Gala barrett, jonty bell etc, you ask what side Im on, I hope this explains and there was no happier man than me last night to see the CEO of Shell. running away, panic stricken from the CH 4 newscaster following his statement from outside no 10, Malcolm Brindred, up yours, like football, life has a habit of biting you back, another story that, but did I enjoy it, you bet your sweet bippy I did. Still pals min !

-- Anonymous, September 14, 2000

definitely - still pals. You call it 'tomato' and i call it 'tomado'. Good to see direct action, bad to see what it was about.

We'll have a chat and a pint over it when i next see you, yeah?

-- Anonymous, September 14, 2000