The New Dog Laws in Germany : LUSENET : Shih-Tzu Talkshop : One Thread

I have been following the whole terrible business in the papers, but wondered if our German friends could give us their firsthand persective.(:o)

-- Anonymous, September 08, 2000


I did not know exactly which new rules your are talking about? Debanning "Kampfhund" like Bull Terriers,Am.Staff. all together 30 breeds involved.If they do not pass a " Wesentest"(behaviortest) they had to be putten down. We have alot coming ahead of us.In some parts you need to pass these test with dogs of any breed that are over 40 cm. I can tell you much about the Kampfhund thing as i am involved with it since my friends are breeders of Bull Terrier. In our district they can bred them but can't sell them to people in germany but outside of germany.They can bred them if they have a businesskennel not a hobby kennel. Could you please specify what exactly you you want to know. Have a nice evening.

-- Anonymous, September 08, 2000

Hi Brigitte - I was wondering what the situation is now with the Staffordshire Bull Terrier. There has been a lot of campaigning in the UK to have this breed removed from the list of dangerous dogs in Germany.

The newspapers here give the impression that there is a very strong anti-dog feeling in Germany now (all breeds). Is this true, or have there just been some isolated incidents?(:o)

-- Anonymous, September 08, 2000

Hi Roz! There has been not only a campaign worldwide for Staffordshire,there is a lot in process for all the breeds.At this point to my knownledge the Am.Staffordshire and Staffordshire Bullterrier are finished in germany.There are some plans in some district to take the Bull Terrier from the list.Princess Anne send a petition to the german goverment as she owns Bull Terrier. Right now at this point there is a antidog process coming.This seem to involve every breed.I have heard from people with kids that scream to dogowners(even with Chihuahua on a lead to take the dogs out of the way of their children.An hour ago the police shut down a Am.Staffordshire (puppy) at Busstation where it has been left by his owner.A vet tried to get the dog ,but it get out of the collar and the police was that scare that they stated the only way was to shut the dog down.Does this need to be commended. So far in my district lower saxony we have our peace with the "shorties"(Toydogs) at the moment.We need to have our eyes open. I feel sorry for the owners of the involved breeds and i hope that the situation will calm down real soon as they live in a nightmare right now. Roz ,if you wanted to be updated(up to date) check out

http:// (english)

If you have strong nerves and would like to see what a animalshelter has done without any need,check out this side.But please this is nothing for the soft souls.This is going to get to court and they try to press charges against the shelter.

This is just my personal opinion: I feel sorry for what had happend to the child that died because of attack by a pitbull in Hamburg.This was not basicly the dogs faults as towngovernment has warned the owner,know about the situation but never again controlled the owner of the dog until this accident happend or did any action. The main point is that some of these dogs are in the hands of owners,that abuse and misuse them for their personal point. I think that these dogs are much owned by wrong people,who had no knownledge about the breed and its needs. Another thing is that most of the mention dogs that are involved in these bites etc. are mixed breeds or do come from breedings that hav'nt been done under control of a kennel club or came from east countries,in which some people find out that they could make a big money making business out of the sell of these dogs.These puppies have been taken from their mothers in age of 4 weeks. With the right breeder and good social contacts,i see no problem with these Bull Terrier.My Shih Tzu went to a Bull Terrier Breeder Home ,when i am on vaccation and have no problems nor do the Bull Terriers have them with them. I have seen there and at my home shih tzu puppies and bully's playing together and nothing ever happend.It is just like i said,the way they grow up and the way they are treated.

Jesus that was quiet long.LOL I think it is bedtime now. See you tomorrow.

-- Anonymous, September 08, 2000

Brigitte - thank you so much for such a comprehensive posting - though I quite understand why you took such trouble over it! So it is every bit as bad as we are hearing. My heart goes out to all the people in Germany who are having to cope with this horrendous situation.

Of course, like any normal person would be, I consider the tragic death of any child almost unbearable. I don`t dare even try to imagine the pain and sheer terror that child must have endured. Equally, to lose ones child in such horrific circumstance must double the pain, if that is possible.

But it appears that the real criminals are the owners of the dogs concerned. There will be others like them too - but compared to the number of honest, intelligent, law abiding and public spirited dog owners/breeders, surely the percentage must be very low. There has to be a better way to protect the public - I find these draconian laws quite terrifying. Our own `dangerous dogs act` has been bad enough, and exposed as a very ill thought out and stupidly applied law. I know that several non-aggressive and totally innocent dogs have, and are suffering due to this ill conceive knee-jerk political action. But it is not on the scale of the actions in Germany.

I have already signed several petitions, and written letters to my MEP etc., and I would urge anyone else who reads this to do the same, but I still was not aware of just how bad the situation is. I have visited the website you posted, and cried at the photographs. I cried as much in frustration at the stupidity of mankind, as out of sadness for the innocent dogs. The people who breed, teach, bully, encourage and reward aggression into their dogs are the lowest of the low. They are either low in intelligence, or else have something missing from their pyschological make-up that stops them from considering the consequences. BUT, one would expect our politicians to been somewhat higher up the evolutionary tree, and from what I can see, their actions are not exactly supporting my theory.

I sincerely hope that the powers that be see reason, and pretty damn quickly too. After all, we are all part and parcel of the EEC now, surely the other member countries should be able to exert some pressure.

-- Anonymous, September 08, 2000

I totally agree what you said.If you believe it or not,they have in some parts of germany Bulldogs on the list.Juts because the word "Bull" show up.I have no idear how the things will turn out at the end here.Finally germany tried that all european country will forbid those breeds,but they lost in the process.So far it seem that germany stand alone.At least an aspect is that the tax we have to pay for the dogs will be lost and the goverment has no income for project than.They take some place up to 2000.- DM (tax for each dog)for a Bull Terrier.To compare .I pay for my first dog 168.- the next one 210 and so on.Years ago we had a kenneltax.In my town it was 250.- DM for all dogs you own.The cancel it.I think if they would have left it this way,the shelters would have a problem less.If you did not sell a dog before he is 3 month than you have to pay tax too until you sell them.You have to give the adress of the new owner and they check if they pay tax in their town.I am still thinking what they are going to do if they had no income as there has been no longer dogs.LOL. Do you have to pay tax for your dogs?

-- Anonymous, September 09, 2000

I forgot this according to the chield that died.This kid could have been protected if the towngoverment and the office would have taken action against this owner.A couple of people informed the office what was going on.The owner of the dog teach the dog to bite at a play ground.Situation at the "Wesentest" at this point ,no places,where it could be done.Some vets(not most) jump on a train and charge up to 800.- DM give them the paper that the dog pass the test.If a dog does not pass the test,that's it and it will be put to sleep.I have seen the Wesentest,and sorry,when my friends Bully has been tested.I laught to much.Their dogs really show no aggressiv behavior whatever the person had been doing.The interessting fact was something that happend at the policedogschool.On of the person who test switch a lighter and a pitbullmix try to attack him.He was teach that he had to attack,when a lighter switch.I am a member of the SV(german shepherd club) and we had 150 so called "Kampfhund" and we are working right now with the owners in groups to 5 dogs,how to get situation under control.This work turned out well. We had checked the dogs we wanted to work with first.And 8 mixed we sort out as there was no chance to work with them. This seminar will go over 12 weeks. This just short up to date.

-- Anonymous, September 09, 2000

We used to have to pay a tax for our dogs (or at least buy a licence), but the system was abolished. I don`t know what commercial kennels have to pay in the way of taxes.

I actually think that having to buy a dog licence is, in principle anyway, a good idea. It would be possible then to weight the cost of the licence for, say, guarding breeds at the most expensive end of the scale, and small domestic pets like say toy breeds at the lowest end. BUT, and this is where the system falls down, it is only the law-abiding citizens who would bother to buy a licence! However, if the penalties for not having a licence were great enough, perhaps it would help a bit.

I don`t like microchips, but maybe all guarding breeds should have to be microchiped at the same time as buying the licence for the dog. So that would all have to be done through the vet. At least then you would have some means of identification which tied up a licence with a specific microchipped dog.

Better still, maybe prospective owners of potentially dangerous dogs should have to pass a temperament/intelligence test!!! Mind you, to be really honest, any dog is capable of aggression under the right circumstances. For instance, my Shih-Tzus are really sweet tempered, but I would never ever leave them on their own with a small child, what if the child fell on one, or stood on a tail, or pulled a handfull of whiskers - a dog that is frightened enough will of course bite, and I would never forgive myself if that happened.

-- Anonymous, September 09, 2000

I agree that shih tzu basicly are sweet and nice usually.But i learned my lesson in 1990,when i imported a shih tzu champion male in age of 3 years.This dog stay with us for about 3 month and than for no reason attacked me.I was not able to work for about 3 month.My hands need to be stitched etc..I contacted the breeder and he told me that he did not believe that the dog did this.I had two choice put him to sleep as he attacked a person or send him back to his breeder.I send him back to the breeder and he was very nice there until he attacked the grandchild of the breeder in the face.And i warned her that something is wrong with this dog. He was putten to sleep than.So no dog is free of agression in my eyes even a tiny dog with the sweetest expression can turn into a devil for some reason.

-- Anonymous, September 09, 2000

Brigitte - one thing that can affect and or change a dog's temperament is a brain tumor. A normally nice, sweet tempered dog can become a dangerous and aggresive animal with this fatal condition. So if this Shih Tzu had developed this then, in fact, it was definitely the correct thing to do putting him to sleep. Some years ago my first G.S.D. had this happen and she was always the most wonderful family dog, never ever showed any aggresion to any member of the family, but was untrustworthy to outsiders, therefore we never put her in any position to do anyone any harm, for her protection as much as other people, but obviously there were times when she had to visit the vet, who is very knowledgable about the breed, these visits were fraught as you can imagine and we always had to muzzle her, until she had the tumour when she became passive and easy to handle for the vet, she never changed her loving ways with the family which I have heard of happening with frightening consequences, but she was so easy for the vet and this was the first thing that made my vet think that something awful had happened to her, she had changed character so much. It was heartbreaking when she died, at home with us all around, I had nursed her day and night for ten days and she said goodbye to my husband before he went off to work that morning, but we didn't realise at that moment that was what she was doing, she died about 40 mins. later. She is buried in the garden and will always be remembered, she was only 9 years old and I thought I would have her for at least a few more years. I have subsequently heard of a Shih Tzu, again a few years ago, who had the condition and that one did follow the pattern of becoming aggresive to his owner.

-- Anonymous, September 09, 2000

Full of busy this weekend....Mum and Dad`s 50th Wedding Anniversay. But I had to just quickly write to say well done to everyone who campaigned against the `dog laws` in Germany. Looks like they are having to do a U turn! Especially good news, as it looked like France was about to fall into line with their thinking too!

Update please - from our friends in Germany.(:o)

-- Anonymous, September 23, 2000

Still hot situation.The goverment plans to make some changes but i can not agree to them.They plan now that they have the right to get into your house to get bloodsamples etc. from you dogs.You need to write to get a permission to pass threw the districts in germany.For sample: If you wanted to go to bavaria you need to have a permisson to travel to threw the districts.Which could end up in three and more permissions.Still the tax is high.Lower Saxony's bull terrier breeders are going to court aginst the laws they had.That will cost them DM 100.000,- but it is worth a try.They all get together and start now. It seem that from the bullterrier anti dog campaigns go over to other breeds.This weekend they started information stands in Oldenburg at fairs.If you check out the homepage of the Bull Terrier Club ( you can see that they canceled alot of shows right now.By the way you are going to be updated by them on a regular base.

-- Anonymous, September 24, 2000

It certainly is a sorry situation this. France apparently is thinking about making some similar changes to the German laws. I understand that Britain has made a stand against falling in line - of course we made a stand!!!! Woe betide any Government who tries to bring in these sort of measures to the UK.(:o)

-- Anonymous, October 06, 2000

So I see that the guy in Germany got three years for having dogs so out of control that they killed the child in the playground. Doesn`t sound like nearly enough to me. IF he had had a gun in his hand, would it have been any more lethal? I don`t thing so. A dog trained to attack is every bit as dangerous a weapon as firearm or a knife. don`t think the bereaved family will have felt that justice has been done. (:o|

-- Anonymous, January 27, 2001

I agree in some way and it is finally known that he and his buddies train the dog to attack.He was warned several time and nothing happend.We are in a situation that most of this so call Fighting Dogs are muzzled now,but yesterday we have had the first accident at our place.A muzzled staffordshire(not the american,i mean the smaller type) was attack by two other big dogs and was not able to defend himself.The owner of the two others stud and watch it and did nothing.The only person that was doing anything was the staff owner. This staff is in our trainings lesson advised by towngovernment and he was doing extreme good.He was close by to start the " Wesentest" and withhin some minutes all work we spend on him was lost. Story without end.I am so tired of this stories.

-- Anonymous, January 28, 2001

It`s enough to make you weep! (:o|

-- Anonymous, January 28, 2001

Yet more disturbing news on this subject. I understand that legislation has now been passed banning four breeds in Germany - including the Staffordshire Bull Terrier?

Update please Brigitte! (:o|

-- Anonymous, February 17, 2001

Sorry i am far behind my posting ,but since a few days i am back to normal life.LOL.Right now i know that many people went to court to press charges against the laws.I know that lowersaxony's breeder try to work on something and they have wellknown specialist of dogs and bull terrier breeders from allover the world at their side. I know that David Harris offered his helm.The point is that in each part of germany the laws are different there is no complete consense at the moment.I know that some breeds are forbidden probably in bavaria ,but are not on the list in lower saxony.Confusion all over. There three categories A , B,C..So far right now the shelters are full of dogs of the catergories.The "Wesentest" is totally booked until end of year.To say something about the clubs.They cancel their "Burema Memorial and the Trophy" ,because noone of the nominies of other countries is willing to attend the big shows as they had fear of the rules in germany and what to aspect. I will give you a more detailed update later as soon as i am up to date as i don't want to pass on wrong info.

-- Anonymous, February 17, 2001

Thanks Brigitte, I can imagine that the atmosphere in Germany (for anyone with dogs) must be tense and very unpleasant. I can understand people being nervous about taking their dogs into Germany too. (:o|

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2001

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