There is a chance that if we all grouped together and moved to the same state, that we could take back the Constitution via popular vote without killing lots of people and re-create a truly Constitutional oasis.

Here's the reasoning. The State of Texas has legitimate grounds to secede from the Union because of the illegal annexation. We also have ports and enough oil and or sun to keep us powered up and financially independent. Yes, we have our problems as well, but name a place that doesn't. All it would take to get our independence back is a majority vote to secede from the UNion and people willing to do it. It could be a viable solution.

What do ya say? Y'all want to move to the drought stricken land of religious sieges and implement a for real "One Nation Under God with Liberty and Justice for All", regardless of ability to pay for said justice! It would be a heck of a lot easier than taking back the entire UNited States.

-- Doreen (liberty546@hotmail.com), September 05, 2000

Answers

Hi Doreen, wasn't that how the Civil War started? Your plan sounds like it could work and I am sure that other states would follow suit if it is legal'But why is it that we can't get a third party up so that we can do it with the votes we already have. I don't think the Feds will let it happen without bloodshed. By the way, how secure is this website?

-- Aagje Franken (Backyard@AOL.com), September 05, 2000.

The issue of secession is a bit of a touchy one up here in Canada. Quebec has been threatening it for years -- but they want to keep up the same social programs (paid for federally, of course), still use Canadian currency, still get federal transfer payments from the Canadian government to support their unemployed (apparently that's our fault, too), and not pay any tariffs or duties on products shipped in from the rest of Canada (pretty much everything except milk and honey -- and complaints).

My thoughts are -- if a group of people large enough aren't happy with the way things are going, then in a true democracy, one should stand up and be heard -- if enough others think the way you do, they will naturally rally 'round, and bingo bango -- you have a political voice that the powers that be must hear -- or get dumped out of office.

Could be I'm being naive here, but I've never understood how walking away from a bad a situation and starting over -- aka quitting -- helps. Wasn't it one of your presidents who said, "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"? Quitting doesn't solve problems. If you want the US to be a better place, figure out a way to make it better -- and be thankful you don't live in Afghanistan.

-- Tracy (trimmer@westzone.com), September 05, 2000.

Hmm. Not a bad idea! Except that I think I would dessicate if I moved out of WA state. (Maybe walk around all day with a spray bottle of water?) I agree that avoiding bloodshed would be the right thing to do. I think all of us CS Forum folk could make a great nation. Most of us are pretty reasonable, and despite our differences, I think we agree on more things than we disagree. I vote Joel in charge of security, though.

p.s. Do I have to wear big hair?

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), September 05, 2000.

Sounds good to me.

-- dave (tidman@midiowa.net), September 05, 2000.

I don't know -- I suspect that if Joel was in charge of security, it would be hard to do this without bloodshed! LOL!! More serious objection -- how many people are there in the state of Texas? And how many of them would vote for secession? How many Countrysiders would it take to swing the vote? And, if it happened, would we actually be able to make a free nation out of Texas? Or would it be a smaller replica of what we have already? I guess I'm just skeptical that people are going to change, or get any more sense, just because they happen to live in one particular location. If I thought it could really happen, and WORK, I'd be all for it, but it's been tried before, and two hundred some odd years later, what we have to show for it is the United States of America -- and I do believe that the people who started this country at the very least knew who God was and had some knowledge of His Word, and His standards for the human being He created. That can't be said about more than a small minority today, so I think we'd have a very difficult time coming up with a high-standard consensus for a new nation. Democracies tend towards the lowest common denominator always. It took this country over two hundred years to sink this low -- how long do you think it would take a new nation that didn't have such high standards to start with?

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), September 05, 2000.

Well! Don't sound too bad to me either but----I certainly wouldn't want ANY politican runnin things. Throw out all the leaders first, startin with georgie bush jr. One politican will spoil the entire state. Look at D.C.-one slick willie has polluted the country! Put Joel in charge-I think he would be honest enough for us all. Matt. 24:44

-- hoot (hoot@pcinetwork.com), September 05, 2000.

I think I would make a good king...

-- Joe Cole (jcole@apha.com), September 05, 2000.

Aww Gee - Does it hafta be Texas?!

(It's a joke, your highness!)

-- Polly (tigger@moultrie.com), September 05, 2000.

I don't know if I could give up 4 seasons ? I was thinking there might be a large island somewhere we can take over . Any ideas?

-- Patty Gamble (fodfarms@slic.com), September 05, 2000.

I agree with Patty about having four seasons. But if we start our own country and live at peace, will enough people know how to live without conflict? If we do it, we might as well take over the whole country, become self-sufficient, barter among ourselves and mind our own business. But could we handle it? Sure is nice to think about.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), September 05, 2000.

I'm all for it,but the late great unpleasentnes(the war of northern aggression)decided that it's not econmically feasible. and you know that if we did do it-La.,'bama,georgia and virginia would all want to be part of it,and then there goes the neighbor hood.

-- billyB. (bloptoad123@cs.com), September 05, 2000.

I wish ya'll luck, but count me out. I waited with bated breath for 18 years to get the hell outta Texas. I've only been back three times, for graduations, marriages, that sort of stuff.

If ya'll figure out how to get rid of the humidity in East Texas, or the dust storms of West Texas, I might think about it.

There IS a certain mentality in Texas which is supportive of your secesion ideas, but there are more people with the "rebel spirit", in my experience, in 'Bama or Mississippi.

Was Texas really annexed illegally? That's not what my Texas history classes taught me. And we were forced to take Texas history for at least ten of my twelve years in public school. 'Course, all our history courses were taught with a very jingoistic bent, so who knows.

Do ya'll really think secesion would result in anything other than a civil war? I don't If Texas didn't have all that oil, maybe you could pull it off.

On the other hand, if we're talking about illegal annexation, and such, then we really ought to give Texas back to Mexico. Along with California, and probably Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico.

JOJ

-- jumpoffjoe (jumpoffjoe@yahoo.com), September 05, 2000.

Sheepish, You wouldn't be required to wear big hair, just a side arm!(Your choice on that too,actually)

JOJ, You most likely took the history classes that liked to "retrofit" occurences with what we have now. Wasn't it you who said something on another thread about the "winners" writing history? Some one did, and that is certainly true.

Regarding the illegal annexation, Texas was a country. Brand new not even weaned and the illegitimate spawn of a young America for the most part. As I understand it, Texas was annexed without ever having a vote taken to determine the desire of the people. Most states wanted to be in the United States for more security.

I have grown up on the revisionist history of the "victors" so I don't claim to know everything about the situation, but a bit of research I have done seems to prove the claim. Maybe someone out there knows it better than I do and can clarify things a bit more systematically for us.

As to having four seasons, if that is what you value more than freedom, then you should stick with wherever you're happy. We have 3. One of them is unfortunately a terrifically long and relentless summer. The other 2 are wonderful spring and varying from just plain dead leaves to the occassional nicely colored fall.

Regarding how many Countrysider's it would take to swing the vote, no offence folks, but I think we need some other freedom loving people involved. I know that seems hard to believe, but it's true!

There are about 18 million people in this state.Last election less than 11% voted.Just shy of 2 million. I suspect more people might get off their bums to vote about such a serious thing as reclaiming the freedoms outlined in the Constitution. So we would need to have at least 5 million who seriously wanted to be free to do it without bloodshed. That's where promoting FREEDOM from all of the offenses of the US government becomes the best tool to use. Also, the US isn't a democracy, it is a democratic republic, which in it's original sense is a good thing. Pure democracies are terrifically dangerous...Socrates,and Jesus were both killed by democracy in action.

I see it as an abusive relationship that has exhausted all the avenues of reconcilliation. Sometimes the highest road to take is to just quit and set out on your own. Isn't that exactly what the Colonists who founded this country did? And yes, GOD would have to be uppermost in the majority of people's minds and hearts. God is the one that determines the winners, but I wouldn't want to live in a theocracy either. Those tend to lend themselves to as much violence as we see on tv.

Regarding civil war, I propose to do this peacefully using the LAW as the guide. I know it hasn't worked in the past, but I think we have pretty much had the willingness to die for our beliefs ripped out of us at this point in history. Most people would be willing to just sit there and let it happen, don't ya think? So long as they could just watch it on the telly.

I know this sounds like a dream, but what shapes reality? Our thoughts only present possibilities, it's the actions we take from those thoughts, right? So to all those "rebs" in Bama and Mississippi, pack your bags and let's make it happen. Peacefully if possible, but let's make sure that we have exhausted all peaceful methods before we war.

-- Doreen (liberty546@hotmail.com), September 05, 2000.

Doreen, ok, the .45 under my arm, and my Winchester over my shoulder. But I get to keep my hair long, ok?

One of the reasons that I am doing this one-man-band dance on voting and participating in government (voting, etc) is because I would hate to see violence rip apart our nation. But something has to change. If we "rebelled", the Feds would come down hard, and it would be another 200+ years before we'd ever see democracy (or reasonable facsimile) in action. Fact of life I think.

Your idea has a lot of merit. But 1) Texas is just a concept I can't yet get my arms around, and 2) People are pretty laid back. Oh yeah, 3) Northern Idaho keeps trying it and not getting very far!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), September 05, 2000.

Given the land prices in MO, it would probably be easier to just BUY us a state, no need to conquer or overthrow anything. Just all chip in $1000.00 and then cut the interstate phone lines. Except for St. Louis, I doubt the rest of the country would miss it. I know, I lived there half my life.

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), September 05, 2000.

If I remember correctly, Texas has a guarantee of the right to bare arms in it's Constitution. It seems to me that if you want to turn Texas into a model of how to follow a Constitution, you should start by enforcing the one you have. I.E. Seceding from the Union wouldn't do diddly if you ain't sticking to your own rules now.

-- paul (p@ledgewood-consulting.com), September 05, 2000.

youall forgeting one little word. WACO

-- Bob Condry (bobco@hit.net), September 05, 2000.

Soni, that just cracked me up!!!! But, MO would not have any opportunity for international trade as the Mississippi has to go throuh several other states to get to international waters. I like missouri, though. It's really quite pretty!

Sheepish, I understand your drive for participation and voting and all, but the old cow is teeteringon it's last leg and neither tweedle dee or tweedle dum are going to want to let the cow regain full use of it's limbs. they like it hobbled because that's what keeps the coffers full for them.

Something HAS to change. If it doesn't we will have the World Trade Organization riots everywhere. Only worse.

I am trying to come up with a way to get like minded people together in a peaceable fashion and with enough legal veracity that we can just shake off the dust and live life being FREE. It's like some kind of unquenchable thirst. I want things that are written into law to have reason and dignity. I want honor to be a concept that people can understand and not scoff at, I want personal responsibility for my actions and the actions of others to be their responsibility. I don't want to be protected to death through inane laws and lawsuits. If I don't want to wear my seatbelt or brush my teeth, why should you have to be concerned with my actions? If I choose to smoke 10 packs of cigarettes a day, why should anyone else have to care about it?If I try to smoke them in your house, that's another deal. It's your house!

Try to come up with alternatives to violence yourselves. How can we become a free nation again working within the system that we have right now? If we can't take a state that has legal underpinnings for removing itself from the corruption that has become the US, we don't deserve any freedom and we may as well all roll over and pee on the porch cuz that's what we will be giving the next generation over to.

-- Doreen (liberty546@hotmail.com), September 05, 2000.

Paul and Bob, go back and re read the proposititon. It is NOT secede as is with more people worried about their 401k plans and ties to their ss pensions. It is the attempt to get FREEDOM oriented people together in the only state in this country that has a tiny chance of reclaimimg the essence of the Constitutional America.

The Texas state constitution is almost verbatim the original US constitution. How's the keeping and bearing of arms going along in this country as a whole? How are ALL of the ammendments in the Bill of Rights going? I know a guy who spent a year in jail on a cocaine charge before he ever was tried. 8th ammendment????What's that? People being stopped at road blocks for warrantless searches, but it's easier to just let them do it, because otherwise it takes too much time out of my busy schedule...4th out the window! i won't even go on because they are all being violated and if you care to look just a little bit, you will find more than we could type in an entire night.

I am far from forgetting Waco. Did you forget who it was that murdered those people? Does the term Federal Government seem to fit? I remember FEDERAL GOVERNMENT BATF guys shooting through the windows. Didn't see Texas Rangers doing that. Not that the (now) DPS is just super rosy and above all reproach, but they aren't as quick to kill the citizenry as the Federales.

I guess maybe we just don't really want to be free. So long as we are free to argue, change the channel and free to choose whether we want to buy Lucky Charms or Cap'n Crunch will suffice. Actually live and chart our own course? Too much work.

Come on people!! We were sprung from the loins of people with the courage to get on what were essentially fishing boats and cross the oceans to come to this continent to do what? BE FREE.

ps. sorry about the cow analogy....the cow fell flat off it's solitary leg.

-- Doreen (liberty546@hotmail.com), September 06, 2000.

Well now Doreen, when you and the others get your new country established, will you pay the rest of the states back for all of the US federal funds used to build roads, bridges and other infrastructure? I realize that Texans taxes paid a good share of this, but maybe we should figure out what percentage your country owes back. This entire issue was discussed on http://www.backwoodshome.com a while back. Can we sell you some used military planes or would you rather buy new ones? Will you be moving the US/Mexico border fence to keep the others states off of your property, or will we be able to freely travel?

While few would disagree that our freedoms are being eroded in the United States, the scenario of a new country is just too complex to work. Well at least in the opinions in this household.

-- Payusback (Jdoe@us.com), September 06, 2000.

I am soooo tired ! I just dropped by to say that I never dreamed the fight would come in Texas. I always thought it would be the block four. My sources tell me that 3300 men have been moved from Fort Cambell to Fort Sam Houston, this is a large move of Army Rangers, the 101st Airborne. They are escalating to match the Michigan Militia. This is going to be a chess match till after the election. I'll write more when my eyes aren't crossing ! BTW, I am honored by your nomination but I would prefer to be a farmer, but God's will be done.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), September 06, 2000.

Doreen, My comments about the enforcing the Texas Constitution was to show that moving people into Texas ain't gonna be enough to fix the problems. The average Texan is likely to share the same apathy that's rampant in the rest of the county. You'd have to not only move people in, but kick most of the current population out.

==>paul

-- paul (p@ledgewood-consulting.com), September 06, 2000.

I think Paul's comment got to the root of (part) of what I was trying to say earlier. Would somebody please tell me what this mess is that Joel is talking about? I've seen glancing references to something going on down there in TX, but have no clue what is being talked about. Do we have another Waco shaping up, or what? I did notice in unanswered questions that Joel mentioned he was swamped with e-mails about whatever it is that is going on, so I don't want to bother him with my question.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), September 06, 2000.

OK, as a 46 year resident of the state of Texas, I must jump in here. 1) Texas has paid at least enough taxes to the US to cover any and all bridges and roads, etc., that Payusback wants us to pay for again. 2) You don't have to have big hair in TX. In fact, most women keep their hair bobbed off in my part of the state. Too hot to do otherwise. 3) We do have 4 seasons here in parts of the state. Amarillo has blizzards in fact. If you don't like the weather in part of it, chances are there is something you will like better somewhere else in the state. We've got everything from desert to swamps with cypress and moss and alligators. 4) We have enough crooked politicians and cops to strangle a mule. For us to get back to the Constitution, (ours or the US) we will have to have quite a housecleaning. 5) Best I recall, the vote to join the US was done by politicians, not the public. There has been controversy over this for quite a while. 6) The general public is so caught up with football, baseball, etc. they probably wouldn't notice any political changes until after the fact. 7) This is just for the heck of it, but we really do still have Texas Rangers here. To be one, the candidate has to have killed at least one person "in the line of duty". Nice rule, huh? 8) We have our own aircraft industry here in Texas.

Texas has some of the most whining, carping, do nothing people on this earth. Texas has some of the most ill-educated and happy to be that way people on earth. And Texas has some of the most freedom oriented, live free or die people on earth. If, or when secession comes again, it will be a blood bath. It cannot be done by election. Elections in Texas are often fixed. This is an old tradition, second only to Louisiana. Why, our former president Lyndon B. Johnson was originally elected to the Senate by a majority vote of dead people. Now we have electronic voting machines. Think how much easier it will be to distort results now.

Eventurally, the entire country will have to decide whether to allow themselves to become an integral part of former president Bush's "New World Order" he spoke about, or whether to become free Americans as our forefathers did. The choice will not be easy, nor will it's aftermath.

As for me and mine, I will die on my feet before I live on my knees.

-- Green (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), September 06, 2000.

Payusback, we wouldn't have to pay the US for it building our roads and stuff, we would just call it foreign aid and tell the US to just keep the money coming.

JOJ, that bunch of nuts that call themselves the Republic of Texas keep saying that Texas was illegally annexed. I'm somewhat of an expert (No! I hate that word, "expert", so forgive me) on Texas history and that keeps coming up now and then but studies show there is no basis to it. The people did vote on annexation and the folks who say Texas was annexed illegally say it wasn't voted on, but it was.

But, seriously, I think we just need to take back the country we have. We need to oust most everybody in Washington and start over. I don't see that happening because too many people who vote for congressmen and senators say, "Yeah, he's a crook but he's my crook".

I still like what Edward Abbey wrote, "A patriot is someone who is not afraid to fight their government for their country".

-- Joe Cole (jcole@apha.com), September 06, 2000.

Hey Green, I suspect you know that quote, "I would rather die on my feet than continue living on my knees" was by Emilliano Zapata, one of the most heroic men in the history of the new world. Right up there with those guys at the Alamo. Zapata fought for Mexico's freedom in southern Mexico while Pancho Villa carried on his efforts in northern Mexico.

-- Joe Cole (jcole@apha.com), September 06, 2000.

You have all posted allot of good points , but do you realize how hard it would be to do ? Ever tried to get parents to agree at a PTA meeting ?

I'm sorry to say this plan seems to far fetched . If you truely want things to change you have to start with changing your politicians and laws .It will be a long hall but can be done , we the people put them in office we the people can get them out !

Are whole political system needs overhalled .The goverment has to much power , the power needs to go back to the people .Exactly how ? I'm not sure , but I am sure you cannot become a lone country in Texas .

As for some of you who in passed posts where worried about the goverment snooping on the web .Well this assures they have all our names highlighted .

Good luck in your efforts to change things and keep it peacefull .

-- Patty Gamble (fodfarms@slic.com), September 06, 2000.

Since when has anything worthwhile ever been easy? I just am not one of those people who will sit back and say "what can I do?" Regarding statements like this:

"Are whole political system needs overhalled .The goverment has to much power , the power needs to go back to the people .Exactly how ? I'm not sure , but I am sure you cannot become a lone country in Texas ."

Exactly what reasoning processes are involved here? How can you be sure of something being infeasible when you can offer nothing as an option?

I don't KNOW if it could be done without bloodshed. I don't KNOW that it can't be done without bloodshed. I will offer a quote from my favorite Mr Jefferson though (paraphrased): "The blood of patriots is the natural fertilizer of the tree of Liberty".

I'd rather die trying than sit on my butt and say "oh well".

And a great big Howdy to los federales! I just want to ask ya if you could please stop messing with my phone for a few days, maybe put a better bug in so it doesn't disconnect in the middle of a conversation about my nephews first week in college? Thanks for your (dis) service.

-- Doreen (liberty546@hotmail.com), September 06, 2000.

How about you guys all move out here? Things still work pretty well. We have our own aircraft industry (if that's important, Green), not much in the way of big hair, either. We have the most number of women representatives of any state (the voice of reason, if you ask me); we have a Chinese-American governor; have had African-American mayors of big cities; have lots of Latinos, Asian-Americans, and American Indians all around. Also gay and lesbian people. Loggers, fishery folk, ranchers, dairy farmers, and environmentalists, too. Mostly, we all pretty much get along somehow despite a lot of different opinions.

We don't have riots (except the WTO nonsense, and those folks blew in from Eugene...and yes Mayor Schell didn't plan well..however, we had the Teamsters and the Turtles on the same side...pretty cool.); have a good standard of living; have decent public schools; have mostly low crime, although it's growing in some areas, like the stupid kids who beat that guy to death. The natural beauty is incredible, and the weather, despite the rain, is pretty moderate. The soil is fertile. .

Downside: The cost of living is pretty high. Land is getting scarce. And you might have to work at either Boeing or Microsoft, or maybe even Starbucks! However, seems like every other person is some kind of entrepreneur, philanthropist, or musician! There's other jobs if you have initiative. Lots of freedom to be all that you can be, relatively speaking...

I guess because it's mostly pretty wonderful here, that I feel that I am still getting enough bang for my buck, government-wise (at and below state level), that I think the cow is still standing up out here. I might think otherwise if I lived somewhere else but I think it's worth supporting with my vote, and my advocacy for change through due process. Your mileage may vary.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), September 06, 2000.

Where have I been? I thought Texas HAD seceded!! After all, it IS a whole 'nuther country. debra in nm, former 40-year resident of the Great State (now a New Texican).

-- debra in nm (dhaden@nmtr.unm.edu), September 06, 2000.

Isn't it amazing when you're thinking something and then just looking around at a site and find something that is so in line with your thoughts that you could have written it yourself if you only had the talent!!! This is a long article, but has some fantastic points and some hopeful thoughts as well. Here's the addy:

http://www.newsmax.com/commentarchive.shtml?a=2000/9/5/163553

I hope some of you decide to read it.

-- Doreen (liberty546@hotmail.com), September 06, 2000.

O.K. I'll give somemore time to this .I beleive the votes on major subjects should be done by the people , not the politicans .Yes it would be more time and money to get some things done but decissions would be made by the majority not the minority .

I am sorry if I see no way of this working .Who will protect you against hostile take overs ? How do you plan on paying for a military ? SS ? Medicare ? Hospitals ? Homeless ? School ? Public works ? Police ? Fire ? the list goes on .Will people be willing to stay around and wait for these things to happen ? Just about everyone is used to these things . Its not like a developing country that doesn't miss what they never had .It would also be very easy to leave the county.

I am sorry I don't think it will ever happen , and don't think it should if there is any chance of blood shed .The people killed or injured would be are family and friends .Are you willing to pull the trigger because they don't agree with you ? I will eat my words if this ever happens peacefully .

-- Patty Gamble (fodfarms@slic.com), September 06, 2000.

I am a resident of Washington, which Sheepish so eloquently remarked on. I see things somewhat differently, IMHO, this state is going quickly down the crapper. Yes, the weather is nice, I love the rain...but the pollution is so bad some days that our majestic mountain ranges are barely visible! Our Govenor may be Chinese American, but he can't govern worth beans. As for the school system, this state spends more money saving salmon than educating children. The traffic is horrendous, the crowds barely manageable. And no big hair? Please, you must not be near Kent or Lynnwood! For these reasons I am pleased to have recently purchased (last week) some wonderful land in the great state of Texas. When my family moves to our new homestead, that will be our 'independence' state. Thanks!

-- Karen H. (karlog@rocketmail.com), September 06, 2000.

Sheepish, the only reason I mentioned aircraft was because Payusback wanted to know where we were planning to buy our aircraft, and whether it would be new or used.

And I'm glad you like Washington. It doesn't appeal to me though.

-- Green (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), September 07, 2000.

Hey Karen! Good for you...you should live where you want to! And yes, there's a number of things which aren't improving around here, but it's still worth saving my vote for! I have mentioned a number of times that we are heading out to E. Washington, for many of the same reasons you spoke of, but it's still WA.

From some of the TX posts on here, you will find yourself at home in no time. Good luck to you.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), September 07, 2000.

Welcome to Texas, Karen! For some strange reason the big hair girls mostly stay around Dallas. I hope if that is an environmental concern for you that you didn't purchase property there. When you get in state just be sure to give a digi holler and all the texans on here will most likely be happy to help you through any problems!

Sheepish, Washington state looks beautiful. I haven't made that corner of the country yet though, so I don't know it. It's not for me though. I want a place that can be a free country and I am going to hold my breath til I get it!!!!!

-- Doreen (liberty546@yahoo.com), September 07, 2000.

I have been reading about the Gray's family 's situation in Trinidad Yx. What a mess. I don't think I want to live in Tx. I don't know what my state would do if I refused tags and driverslicenses. It seems the local enforcers feel very possesive about that. But how to change our govnmemt legally would take years, Perot made a stab at it and could not. And how do you all feel about Buchanan and Nadaer. I have read some of y'alls remarkes. But we need someone who knows a little bit about how to work the present system.I would do my part with petitions etc. but when I think of how much work it is to get a stoplight installed at dangerous intersections or how to keep a child molester behind bars, what are we even thinking about? I'll have to bring my laptop with me when I go to Heaven, because I don't have that much time left.I am not being silly, but it disturbs me that some of you are going to be harrassed just for putting things on the baord. I have been trying to post a similar post two times and I crashed every time. This is my third time, then if this doesnot work I'll go to another computer. Ada

-- Aagje Franken (Backyard@AOL.com), September 08, 2000.

Yes, the Trinidad situation is a serious mess. However, it isn't a mess because it's Texas. It's a mess because we ar so far from being the country that was laid out in the Constitution that someone who attempts to adhere to those principles is now a felon. Doesn't matter what state you're in.

You're right it would take years, but this didn't happen overnight and it can't be changed overnight. I still must adhere to the idea that if there were a majority of people in a location that had all of the necessities to function and prosper as a modern nation, that we could reclaim our freedom. I guess we just don't have th desire to do so for the most part. So that certainly limits te choices for people with a burnig desire to be free.....Stay tuned, there will be more Wacos, more Ruby Ridges and more Trinidads on the way. How dare anyone try to live their life by the Constitution. It shall not be tolerated.

-- Doreen (liberty546@hotmail.com), September 08, 2000.

I hate to say it, but I'm beginning to think that Waco, Ruby Ridge and Trinidad and others to come are just the price we are going to have to pay to get our country back. Maybe it's just part of a little war we haven't seen all of yet.

-- Joe Cole (jcole@apha.com), September 08, 2000.

The only state to secede and succeed is West Virginia. They seceded from Virginia when Virginia left the Union. I don't think it would ever happen as you think. The best thing to do is turn off the tv, cancel subscriptions to all the newspapers, and just don't worry about what games they play in DC. They sure don't worry about mine!

-- Patricia Ramsey (woolspin@aol.com), September 10, 2000.

Good News!

There is a group out there that has been living in freedom with almost no government intervention and pay almost no taxes. But on the down side they do without almost everything considered necessary by most others. They are the Amish people. If you want to see how freedom is and if it is for you, go live in one of their comunities for a while or you might try the Menonites, since they are less strict. As for Texas i don't think so. Thanks to Bush big business has it on self destruct. You won't have water or air thats usable in a few decades. But actually freedom from government is very easy. All you have to do is do without whichever programs or services they provide and provide for yourself!

-- Nick Tepsick (wildheart@ekyol.com), September 10, 2000.

Nick, I won't have freedom from government as long as they take half of everything I earn and waste it on worthless social programs.

-- Joe Cole (jcole@apha.com), September 11, 2000.

I don't know the solution(s) to the problems in this country, but I think I can recognize one that has no chance of working. This secession idea has been tried, and it doesn't work. IMHO, we need to take back the power in the entire country by the means set forth in the Constitution...with our vote. In order for this to happen, a few things need to change: (1) The 2-party system goes in the dumper. (2) The Electoral College goes in the dumper. (3) Everybody votes! (4) Every item before Congress stands on its own merit, rather than riding on an unrelated bill. (5) A "none of the above" line on all ballots.[if NOTA wins, we start over]. Items 1&2 are just plain obsolete. They were necessary back before the days of rapid communication, but it's time for them to go. Item 3 is key. Without it, none of the others will happen. 4&5 will automatically happen if item 3 does. As far as this war-like talk is concerned; what kind of an idiot would go up against the US military when he had a viable alternative?(see above) One more comment and I'll shut up. Dieing for your country is a noble sentiment, but it is far more practical to get the enemy to die for his. ;-)>>>

-- Dan G. (dizzydan@yahoo.com), September 11, 2000.

Geez Dan, did you see anywhere that anyone said, "Hey, let's just fight the US military, we can take 'em!"????? Your idea would be fine if anyone felt that 1)their voting accomplished anything,2) debates and equal advertising and info time were given to all parties, 3)we could get people into the Congress and the Senate that would stay bought by te people as opposed to the corporations or organizations 4)a law could passed that REQUIRED all "legislators" to have read in totality each law they were voting on 5) we still had a government that adhered to the US Constitution as the law of the land. In which case, everyone who is dissatisfied would be satisfied. And I am sorry, but secession has worked. We did it against the British over 200 years ago. Please go read the article I gave a link for up the page a little bit. It has several references to seceesions that have worked and been without bloodshed.

-- Doreen (liberty546@hotmail.com), September 11, 2000.