From the BBC Sports site:

French international striker Robert Pires, who joined Arsenal from Olympique Marseille this season, said he had been "shocked and frightened" by his introduction to English soccer.

Pires started on the bench against Sunderland in Arsenal's first Premier League match of the season and he said he was glad not to have started the match. "Frankly, that first half against Sunderland frightened me. It even shocked me," Pires told French sports weekly l'Equipe magazine.

"In one half on the bench, I understood it. Soccer in England is a fight. Sometimes a street fight," he added. "The English spend most of the time provoking, insulting and trying to get on your nerves. I know I shouldn't say that, but I was glad to start on the bench. What struck me was that they use their elbows a lot and pull the jerseys knowing the referees will let them".

Pires added that players kept insulting one another. "The English spend most of the time provoking, insulting and trying to get on your nerves. You must be solid here, especially if you're French."

"I was told before the beginning of the season that Patrick Vieira was especially targetted like other French players. There is no rational explanation. Maybe it's our world title that annoys them. Maybe English players are jealous. I don't know," he said.

After starting that first game on the bench, Pires has played for the full 90 minutes against both Liverpool and Charlton in Arsenal's last two league matches.

Well, if you don't like it here you know what you can do Robert - tosser!

-- Anonymous, September 04, 2000

Answers

.....especially if you're French.

Persecution complex anyone.......come on for gods sake, it doesn't matter what nationality, colour or religion you are, this kind of thing is gonna happen on the field......anyone reckon it is Wenger trying to wind up the French contingent at the Gooners like this.

As Clarky says.....if you don't like it here you know what you can do Robert - tosser!

-- Anonymous, September 04, 2000

No wonder he was upset - first experience of the PL was at the Stade de Merde!! ;-)

-- Anonymous, September 04, 2000

Hmmmm ... wasn't "jersey pulling" imported when we joined the EEC?

-- Anonymous, September 04, 2000

I seem to be in a minority of one here but I'm prepared to accept Pires isn't merely whinging. The speed and physicality of the English game has its many attractions, but it does tolerate and permit tackles and challenges (not to mention verbal abuse and intimidation) that would not be accepted in most other competitions. Vinnie Jones would never have gotten anywhere near a top-flight side outside of England. Barry Venison once rightly observed that Patrick Vierra will always be subjected to provocation merely because he's a fine player.

I'm equally prepared to accept Pirez's asserion that French players are sometimes picked on. I've seen and heard English fans, who wouldn't dream of insulting a player because he's black, let rip with appalling racist insults towards French players (think Cantona at Selhurst Park).

Perhaps it stems from that insular little-England mentality well represented by the Murdoch press and Geordie's little 'joke' that shirt-pulling is an EU import. Instead of telling Pirez to p**s-off how about reflecting on the paucity of technically good players in the English game and why so many 'English' sides, including our own, are packed with foreigners.

-- Anonymous, September 04, 2000

So these 'abuses' only occur in the PL do they Stevo?
There's no shirt-pulling in Serie A, or Primera Liga, or even the Dutch League? No one in these leagues trys to wind up the opposition? Did you perchance read Michael Reisiger's comment on how the Dutch team would wind up Roy Keane in their recent WC qualifier v Ireland?
Could you expand on why/how you think the PL phenomena that Pires is immuminating the outside World with correlates with the current shortage of World class home grown talent? I'm not sure I see the direct connection.
Pires came here entirely because Arsenal offered him more money than Real Madrid. He's played two whole games and now he doesn't like it. He doesn't like it because it's tough, and it's physical. Could it also be because he realises how difficult it's going to be for him to even get into the starting eleven - never mind play opposition who are content to give him all the time and the space he would like to display his talents.
Well, excuse me!
Perhaps he should have given a little less thought to the moola he would bank just by agreeing to come here into this violent, distasteful League, and just a little more consideration to staying loyal to his French Club, where presumably everything was hunkydory. After all no one held a gun to his head.

-- Anonymous, September 04, 2000

Can I just say in his defence that he DID say he loved the stadia and crowd which surpassed anything he'd seen elsewhere and he was very happy to be here...

-- Anonymous, September 04, 2000

Probably another case of journalists twisting his words around to sound worse than he meant. But still, I find it interesting that the French players who seem to whinge the most play for London-based teams. Can't recall Domi or Goma whinging about being picked on...or about anything else really. They seem happy enough to get on with doing what they're paid for.

-- Anonymous, September 04, 2000

Clarky: No of course 'abuses' are not limited to the English game. The Italian game pre-80's had the reputation of a butchers paradise. Dirty tricks and 'sledging' are to be found everywhere. Reiziger will be rightly punished for what he said over Keane. Not for one moment was I suggesting that the English game has the monopoly on foul play.

What I meant though is that the English game is fast, very fast, and very physical, and that has its down side. When I watch Dutch games, or French/Italian/Spanish/German games on TV, I regularly see free kicks awarded for 'offences' that would never be given in England. I don't think this is a very original observation. It can make for exhilarating, adrenaline-pumping football but when I see a young talented player like Leeds Alan Smith acting like a thug and getting away with it, whereas here he'd be booked or sent off, I think there is something wrong.

The down side IMHO is that English players, from an early age, rarely get time to hone the finer skills of the game, there is too much hustle and bustle, Sturm und Drang. English central defenders who can jump and head all day but whose distribution is appalling. Think on how so few creative midfielders the English game has produced. There is so much emphasis on power and muscularity, and so little on positional play and passing. I can't help drawing the conclusion this is a major reason why we aren't producing World Class talent and are importing so many non-English players.

Quite a novelty for me to disagree with you on something Clarky, tell me why I'm wrong.

-- Anonymous, September 04, 2000

After all no one held a gun to his head.

You're right there - Tino is playing in South America these days.

-- Anonymous, September 04, 2000

Stevo:

When I watch Dutch games, or French/Italian/Spanish/German games on TV, I regularly see free kicks awarded for 'offences' that would never be given in England.

Does that mean that Pires never watched Premier league football on TV before he came over here. Surely if he had he would have noticed the very problems he is reportedly moaning about.

You know what makes me think most about this article..it is the line What struck me was that they use their elbows a lot and pull the jerseys knowing the referees will let them". now how many players do you know, who speak perfect English, that would refer to them wearing a jersey. Now that could well be licence on behalf of the reporter, but you then ask, if that is, how much more of it is..so what did Pires actually say.

Sorry but as far as Im concerned..he is getting bloody well paid, he should get on with the game warts and all or he should shut up and p*ss off.

-- Anonymous, September 04, 2000

I know very little about Robert Pirez, 'the personality'. For all I know he could be a moaner, a prima donna. However I'm inclined to think after reading the article that he merely (naively, perhaps) made a number of honest observations about the English game to a journalist who dressed up the negative ones and, whey hey he's got a story: cue 'johnny foreigner does not like it up them' and 'sod off back to france then' reactions.

Rather than stick up for Pirez I was more interested (awkward sod that i am) in stirring a debate on whether some of what he said is right. I may be on my own here but sometimes I find English football too physical for its own good, and on some issues I thought Pirez had a point. Instead of shooting me down over Monsieur Pirez (about whom I really couldn't care less) then how about telling me why I'm wrong in thinking that the English game is sometimes too fast, and too physical. Preferably leaving the John Bull outfit in the wardrobe whilst doing so.

-- Anonymous, September 05, 2000

Well said Stevo.

In the light of the English national side's glorious string of successes - practically unbroken since 1966 - we clearly have no reason to listen for a moment to anyone who suggests that how we play football in this country might not be the only way. Especially someone from the nation that are world and european champions.

I find that a match on TV betwen two sides I don't care about is a good test. Watching two lower-reach premier sides hoofing it about, say Everton and Leicester last season, all effort and bustle but very little skill, leads to rapid boredom followed by channel-hopping. The equivalent Spanish or Italian sides, for all the slower pace and different forms of gamesmanship, yield a much better and more interesting spectacle. I practically gave up on football in this country in the 1980s, so bad were the displays. The onset of the PL, largely becuase of the imported players, was a revelation: short passing games, control on the ground, playing through the middle sometimes - Wimbledon looking like a throwback, not the way that everybody played it.

For what it's worth, I think that coaching lost its way very badly in this counry when some idiot produced a stupid and misinterpreted statistic (Graham Taylor?), that over half of goals are scored after less than three players had touched the ball. That resulted in the onset of the exclusively long-ball game, emphasis on speed and strength at the expense of ball control, and slow-thinking players. Worst of all, we selected youngsters on the basis of fast developers who became strong and fast early, and could compete in physical games, losing whole generations of smaller but more skillful youngsters that were put off before they had ever had a chance.

No doubt I'll be equally unpopular for saying it, but I think the outomes are still plain to see. I'm old enough to remember - just - the way that England was taught that there was a better way to play, by Puskas and his mates. Maybe we shouldn't forget it.

-- Anonymous, September 05, 2000

Stevo, I take the shirt pulling with a pinch of salt, South Americans were doing this years ago, Italians in Serie A perfected it, and the amount of times this was used in Euro 2000 really amazed me. Lo and behold, it has become commonplace in the PL. This Stevo I deffo put down to the influx of foreign players in our league. As for racist remarks on the field of play, I very much doubtthis happens, the players know the consequences and adverse publicity if they are caught. Apart from that I believe out of the 11 on the park, 5 on the bench plus the manager, there has to be someone in that lot who like ourselves would despise any racist remarks. Pires a victim methinks of the wind-up merchants, "What`s it like to play without a string of onions round your neck", typical Brit footballers humour or lack of it. The main thrust of your argument and which I feel we should concentrate is "Is the game here , too fast and too Physical" The British Public for their 90 mins at exhorbitant prices will demand end to end football, 2 mins spent rolling the ball across the back four will never IMHO be a attraction . Physically the game has eased in the last two years or since the clamp down of the tackle from behind, but why does there appear to be more injuries sustained. I feel the next move on the cards by FIFA will be a clamp down on the jostling in the box prior to a corner. British football is perceived to be fast, and yet the players on average are slower than their European counterparts, granted the ball moves faster here, the continentals up the pace when they see a chance of an opening. In a lot of sports its power -v- guile, for example the Gallic flair of France at Rugby -v- The strong forward play of England, many examples in tennis, Pires is not telling me anything I did not know already. Just the way I see it Stevo, the guy may have been took out of context by the journo`s-the old chesnut

-- Anonymous, September 05, 2000

Buff - whilst agreeing with almost everything you say, I still can't get my head around why watching two PL teams that I don't care about is such a complete bore. It may well be end to end stuff, but so what? Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Or is it just me?

-- Anonymous, September 05, 2000

I think Buff is right that we require 90 minutes of entertainment and some defensive serie A performances would leave us cold. Personally, I can watch Gazetta Italia for about 15 minutes. However, watching Spanish football is a pleasure - less defensive than Italy, wonderful movement and good atmosphere. What we should really be aspiring to IMHO. We can admire the tactical genius of Italy's defensive play and the patient passing and the slow build up to goals but it isn't entertainment any more than watching Wimbledon v Everton is entertainment. Pires was a bit unfortunate that his introductory game was against Sunderland. Dirtiest team in the league last season - proud of having commitment first and skill second. However, it's rich that a French man should complain about the coments on the pitch - Desailly kept it up with Keown and made a comment to Owen as he came off. Remember him trying to wind up Al at the Cup semi. If Al telling him to "f...k off" is a sign of a rough and nasty league, then I suggest he follow Desailly around tomorrow night at Stamford Bridge and see how long it is before he says "Va te faire foutre".

-- Anonymous, September 05, 2000

Stevo, I'm not disagreeing with anything you say and I agree to some extent with Pires' observations. My "shirt pulling" being imported from Europe was NOT a joke tho' and I do not have a little-England mentality that you accuse me of.

-- Anonymous, September 05, 2000

Stevo,

On further reflection, you make some very good points. Having read the other contributions, I also suspect I may have fallen victim (yet again) for the usual journalistic twisting of words to fit a predetermined story.

I think your comment - "English players, from an early age, rarely get time to hone the finer skills of the game, there is too much hustle and bustle" - is pretty accurate, and probably does contribute to a dearth of World class creative players.

However, other than the higher overall tempo to the game in the PL, I'm not convinced there are as many differences between the PL and the other major European Leagues with regard to what I will call 'abuse of the laws' as you believe, and I certainly don't accept the "night & day" comparison of Mr. Pires (allegedly).

IMO, players are actively encouraged by their Managers in every League to seek whatever advantage they can get away with, and every League has its own 'thugs' - eg. Diego Simeone in Serie A. In this situation, there is massive pressure on refereeing standards and uniformity of approach.

Despite UEFA's attempts to harmonise the approach of referees, there are still distinct differences of priority, tolerance and emphasis between countries. From the limited, anecdotal evidence of televised games, the present standards of refereeing appears to be a little higher in France, Spain and Italy than in the PL. However, I regularly see players in Serie A and Primera Liga getting away with dreadful tackles that would definitely - and correctly IMO - attract yellow/red cards in the PL.

As Buff has suggested, I also believe 'the imports' have contributed significantly to the much of the gamesmanship regularly seen in the PL these days.

My main discomfort with Pires' alleged comments were that he has come here lured purely by massive financial gain, and to be then condemning the entire PL out of hand after playing only two games - and therefore having gained personal experience of only two Premiership teams - smacks to me of both double standards and a extreme lack of sensitivity towards your host.

Having played here for three full seasons, such comments coming from Emmanuelle Petite would have far greater validity.

-- Anonymous, September 05, 2000

Oh. It is just me then!

-- Anonymous, September 05, 2000

Well I have to be honest Dr. Bill - I enjoy the majority of the PL games I watch on Sly. OK, you occasionally get a yawner, but IMO they are in the minority.
It is usually crash, bang whallop stuff, but given the incredible pace the games are played at, I actually believe the skill levels are quite high.
Would it be more skilful overall if played at a less frantic pace? Undoubtedly so; however, let's remember that the reason the PL is so competitive is that unlike most national leagues there are simply no easy games. This may contribute to it's inherent weakness regarding superior skill levels, but it is also what makes it so compelling - at least to some of us - or is it just me?

-- Anonymous, September 05, 2000

Some good points made;

Dr Bill: completely share your loathing of route-one football which also nearly destroyed my interest in football in the 80's (alongside narrowly misssing a Chelsea fan being kicked to death).

Buff: I suspect you're right that the overcharged British public demands blood and guts football, and would find the slow-build up, passes across the back four, a la Serie A, a turn off. Personally though I share Dr Bill's opinion that a mid-table English game involving sides you don't care about, for all the commitment and energy on display, frequently lacks many of footballs finer qualities, not least as its too fast.

Dougal: I totally share your admiration for the Primera Liga, the achievements of their clubs in the last Champions League speak for themselves.

Clarky: I take your point on Pirez, even if I'm more inclined to relate to his comments. I guess time will tell if he turns into another Anelka or not. I can also accept that certain forms of gamesmanship are more prevalent in other competitions. Where perhaps we agree to differ is my view that the physicality and robustness of the English game allows players to get away with challenges they wouldn't elsewhere. Where we do evidently agree though is there is a dearth of world-class, technically gifted, English players and whatever the reasons something needs doing. Clearly there is more to this than just high-velocity football, but I suspect it doesn't help, especially with younger players. I equally suspect I'll revert to agreeing with you on most issues.

Geordie: apologies if I implied you were a little-Englander.

-- Anonymous, September 05, 2000

This may be an unpopular observation - the difference between the English game and the Spanish, French, Italian, German etc. game is a reflection of the cultural differences. There intellect is admired, here it is largely derided. Look at our commentators, the majority of the managers, the administration, the tabloids, the drinking culture of the players.


-- Anonymous, September 05, 2000

That's a VERY astute observation Bill, and I suspect is very close to the truth.

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2000