1. 1 Cor 13:8-13: Gifts ceased upon the completion of the canon
1. Setting the context:
1. In 1 Cor 13 Paul discussed spiritual gifts from two angles.

	V1-7 He singled out tongues, prophecy, inspired knowledge and supernatural faith (as representative of all spiritual gifts) and contrasted them with love as their superior (vs. 1-7).	This contrast has to do with the value of spiritual gifts.
	V8-13 Then Paul referred to the three gifts of prophecies, tongues, and knowledge (again obviously representing all spiritual gifts) and contrasted them with the Christian virtues of faith, hope and love (vs. 8-13).	This contrast has to do with the duration of spiritual gifts. As long as earthly life shall last, faith, hope and love will abide (v. 13), whereas spiritual gifts were going to "cease" or be "be done away" (v. 8). The termination of the gifts would be "when that which is perfect is come" (v. 10).

2. The nouns "prophecy" and "knowledge" (vs. 2, 8) are feminine in the Greek. But in verses 9 and 10 we have verbs, not nouns, thus requiring neuter modifiers. In verse 9 the verbs "know" and "prophesy" are both modified by the adverbial expression ek merous ("in part"). But in verse 10 those verbs and their modifiers are brought together and replaced by the single substantive expression to ek merous ("that which is in part"). Whatever is partial in verse 9 is "that" which is partial in verse 10. And since to teleion ("the perfect") is the counterpart to to ek rmerous ("that which is in part"), it is absolutely clear that the "perfect" also refers to those same verbs. Therefore, the word "perfect" describes the completion of inspired preaching and points to the consequent cessation of the spiritual gifts which enabled and confirmed that preaching.

	Contrasts in 1 Corinthians 13:8-13
	Between the "now" 56 AD	And then "then" 96 AD
	Between that which fails	And that which never fails
	Between that which ceases	And that which does not cease
	Between the part	And the whole
	Between the incomplete	And the complete
	Between the childhood state	And the state of mature manhood
	Between knowing only part	And knowing fully
	Between seeing things darkly	And seeing them clearly (face to face)

2. Think of 1 Cor 13:8-13 as Paul's sermon outline entitled "Partial Vs Complete Knowledge" It has an introduction that states the main point, two illustrations of this main point, and a conclusion that restates the point!

A. Introduction: States the main point plainly in V9-10 The contrast is between partial and complete KNOWLEDGE B. Illustrations: Uses two illustrations to explain main point: FIRST: child/man v11 (see 1 Cor 14:20 gifts referred to as childish) SECOND: mirror darkly/face to face V12 (polished brass mirror) C. Conclusion: Restates main point again plainly: V13 contrast is once again between partial and complete KNOWLEDGE

Partial Vs Complete Knowledge

Now = part knowledge	Then = perfect knowledge	Result
v9 Know & prophecy in part	v10 the perfect comes	v8-10 gifts done away
v11 as a child	v11 became a man	v11 childish things done away
v12 mirror dimly	v12 face to face (mirror clearly)	v13 faith, hope & love remain after gifts have ceases
v12 Know in part	v12 know fully

1. We now draw your attention to three parallel passages:

1 Cor 12-14	Ephesians 4	Romans 12
To each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit 12:7	To each one grace was given according to the measure of Christs gift v7	We have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us v6
The Spirit distributes to each one individually just as He wills v11	When He ascended on High He gave gifts to men v8	God has allotted to each a measure of faith v3
To one is given wisdom, knowledge, faith healings, miracles, prophecy, distinguishing of spirits, tongues, interpretation of tongues 12:8-10	-	Prophecy, service, teaching, exhorting, giving, leading mercy v6-8
God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, kinds of tongues 12:28	He gave some apostles, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers v11	-
For the common good, seek to abound for the edification of the church 12:7 14:12	for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body v12	-
love never fails 12:1-8	building up of body in love v15	each devoted in love v 9-10
Gifts will cease ... now we know in part, then we will know fully 13:10,12	until we attain to the knowledge of the son of man v13	-
When I was a childWhen I became a man 13:11	To a mature man, not child tossed about by winds of doctrine but to grow up v13-15	that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. v2
Now you are Christs body and individually members of it 12:27	The whole body fitted according to the working of each individual part v16	we are one body in Christ and individually members of one another v4-5

 

2. Summary of three parallel passages:

operational	ceased
know and prophecy only a part	know fully, perfect knowledge of Christ
Children tosses about	became a mature man
look into mirror dimly	face to face (mirror clearly)
every wind of doctrine	unity of the faith

1. 1 Cor 13:8-13: Definition of perfect (teleion)
1. Greek Definition of perfect: "teleion"
1. VINE: "Signifies having reached its end, finished, complete, perfect"
2. THAYER: "brought to its end, wanting nothing necessary to completeness; when used of men it means full-grown, adult, of full age, mature."
3. BAGSTER: "brought to completion, complete, entire, as opposed to what is partial or limited"
4. ARNDT & GINGRICH: "having attained the end or purpose, complete, perfect"
2. The Greek word "perfect" does not denote the idea of blamelessness, perfection or complete holiness as our English word "perfect" does today.
3. The Greek adjective translated "perfect" (teleios) means "having attained the end or purpose, complete." It may be applied to people with the meaning of "full-grown, mature, adult" being "perfect and entire, lacking in nothing Jas. 1:4. Or it may refer to the finality of anything, something which has been "brought to its end, finished." In contrast to the often-heard statement that "nothing in this world is perfect," let us notice how the New Testament uses this Greek word in some of its twenty occurrences.
1. Christians are expected to be "perfect" (in the sense of being full-grown or mature)
2. in loving both friends and enemies (Matt. 5:44-47; cf. Luke 6:36)
3. in commitment to Christ (Matt. 19:21)
4. in spiritual discernment (1 Cor 2:6, 14)
5. in attitude (1 Cor 14:20)
6. in knowledge of the way of salvation (Phil. 3:15)
7. in union with Christ (Col. 1:28)
8. in remaining true to Gods will (Col. 4:12), and in being able to distinguish between good and evil (Heb. 5:14).
9. One does not have to reach heaven before having this kind of perfection.
10. Paul and others were already "perfect" (Phil. 3:15), though not sinless.
11. Likewise, Gods system of salvation has perfection (wholeness, completeness) in its earthly processes. For example, his gifts to us are complete Jas. 1:17; patience or stead-fastness has its "perfect" (complete) work in our lives Jas. 1:4; and faith is perfected or completed (the verb form here) by our works (Jas. 2:22).
12. Therefore, some things in this world are "perfect" in the biblical meaning of the word.
2. What does perfect refer to in 1 Cor 13:8-13?
1. The different views of what perfect refers to:

Gifts cease before the second coming (Truth)	Gifts cease at the second coming (False views)
The "perfect comes" refers to: "perfect knowledge", the completion of the Gods revelation (canon) the corporate maturity of the church brought about by the completion of Gods revelation (canon)	The "perfect comes" refers to: The perfect "Jesus Christ" when he comes again. The "corporate maturity" of the church at second coming. The "individual perfection" of the believer at death. The "eschatological perfection" brought about by the second coming of Christ and the eternal state of heaven.
The truth is that the perfect comes, refers specifically to the completion of the full revelation of the New Covenant to man. The church exists in an immature corporate, collective state until this revelation is complete, at which point gifts are no longer needed and the church is fully mature.

1. Refers to the completion of the revelation of the Gospel. (canon)

• What is the perfect? Whatever is contrasted "in part". "Perfect" is a generic verb that could refer to 1000s of things. In order to know what noun perfect modifies, we must use the context to determine this.

True method of interpretation:
in part what?	perfect what?
Partially full glass	completely full glass
Partially full gas tank	completely full gas tank
Partially full knowledge	completely full knowledge
Pentecostal method of interpretation:
in part what?	perfect what?
Partially full glass	completely full knowledge
Partially full gas tank	completely full glass
Partially full knowledge	completely full gas tank
Partially full knowledge	completely full second coming
The object noun MUST BE THE SAME!!! Two times we are specifically told by the Holy Spirit that "knowledge, know, knowing" is the "object noun" of "Perfect" "We know in part" we only know part of the truth "But when the perfect comes" then we will know all of God's will for us.

Knowledge is the object noun of Perfect

v10	For we know in part, and we prophesy in part but when the perfect comes	It is an irrefutable conclusion that knowledge is the object noun of perfect. This conclusion is reinforced by the parallel in Eph 4:13, "until we attain to the knowledge of the son of man"
v12	now I know in part but then I shall know fully
It is an irrefutable conclusion that the perfect comes = knowing fully

1. Does "ejk mevrou" and "toV tevleion" refer to states of knowledge or qualities of methods by which knowledge is acquired? Both Gaffin (Perspectives on Pentecost, p110) and Grudem (The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament, 324 n. 93) appear to see some overlap in these views. This may be because the states of knowledge must have a means to produce them, and the means of obtaining knowledge must have a product.

2. The work of Christ on the Cross was complete, but we did not have a compete revelation about it until later: John 19:30

1. Gifts cease when church reaches corporate maturity
1. Paul employs the first of two illustrations to the main point, where he contrasts being a child, (with spiritual gifts) were being a man (knowledge compete no spiritual gifts needed)

1 Cor 13:11 Corporate maturity illustration
Child 33-100AD	During the age of spiritual gifts when revelation of incomplete and the Bible was not fully written.
Man 100 AD - present	Revelation complete, Bible finished in 96 AD. Gifts ceasing is equated directly with a man doing away with childish things.

2. Two parallel passages that teach the identical thing:

1 Cor 13:11	Eph 4:13
"When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things."	"until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ."
Notice that both 1 Cor 13 and Eph 4 equate attaining fullness of knowledge with becoming a mature man.

3. Refers to the completion of the Bible which will bring about maturity of the corporate church.
4. Think about spiritual gifts as a scaffolding.
5. Gregory the Great, 600 AD, viewed spiritual gifts as a temporary scaffolding while commented on Mark 16:17; "Is it so, my brethren, that because ye do not these signs, ye do not believe? On the contrary, they were necessary , in the beginning of the church; for, that faith might grow, it required miracles to cherish it withal; just as when we plant shrubs, we water them until we see them thrive in the ground, and as soon as they are well rooted we cease our irrigation.''

1. Notice that he used the idea of a shrub being cared for until self sustaining then the care ceases.

6. In the picture below we have three stages of building a highway over pass (bridge).

Stage #1: Scaffolding (spiritual gifts) put up and structure built on top (church) Stage #2: Permanent side supports are built (word of God) while scaffolding (gifts) are still in place. Stage #3: When the side supports are compete (bible finished in 96 AD) the scaffolding is removed, no longer needed for anything. Now the Word of God supplies everything that the gifts were purposed to do! We have a miracle confirmed message designed to edify the church! A. Spiritual gifts revealed the pattern of doctrine and morality Eph 4:14 The purpose of gifts and ultimately the Bible was, "as a result let us not be tossed about by every wind of doctrine" Gifts did restrain false doctrine in the let century: 2 Th 2:6,7 B. When the HS withdrew gifts from the church, what was left was: the "sword of the Spirit" Eph 6:17 "the power of God for salvation" Rom 1:16; 1 Cor 1:18; Jas 1:21 a book which fully furnishes: 1 Ti 3:16,17 Have all truth in written form: Jn 16:13 + 2 Pe 1:3

 

1. False Pentecostal position: This corporate maturing process is the correct interpretation of the passage, but it is an ongoing process that only finishes at the second coming, not sometime around 96 AD when the Bible was completed.

1. Actual quote from Pentecostal doctrine book: "1 Cor 13 & Eph 4 both speak of the church corporately growing into full manhood, which is a progressive, continuing and future fact"

2. This Pentecostal interpretation states that as time goes on, the church would become more mature, more Christ like and have a fuller understanding of doctrinal things and have an increased "unity of faith". All these things increase gradually over time till the second coming.

3. To refute this view, we merely point out that:

• the facts of history show there was only one church in the first century that was unified on doctrine and there are thousands of churches today!
• that a falling away was prophesied in 1 Tim 4:1-4.
• That such a falling away has occurred with the result that there are thousands of denominations today, each teaching differing doctrine. Even though Pentecostal churches represent a tiny fraction of denominations today, even they are highly divided over doctrine and fellowship disputes.
• On what basis would Pentecostals suggest that the church has grown into manhood gradually over time? We welcome their suggestions!
• Such vague concepts are eagerly swallowed whole by Pentecostals desperate to escape the truth of these passages, but when investigated and examined, are simply false teaching unable to bear even the lightest cross examination!

1. Gifts will cease before the second coming:
1. The very context of 1 Co 13:8-13 proves that gifts must cease prior to the second coming!!!
2. "The purpose of miracles was to dispense God's revelation to man and to confirm it as genuine (Heb 2:3-4). Faith looks forward to fulfillment. It is "the assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen" (Heb. 11:1, ASV). While we live in this world, "we walk by faith, not by sight" (I1 Cor 5:7). Faith is a characteristic of this age. It is "unto the saving of the soul" (Heb 10:39). Likewise, hope is limited to earthly existence. It involves steadfastness (Rom. 15:4), waiting (Gal. 5:5), expectation (Phil. 1:20), looking (Tit. 2:13) and laying hold (Heb. 6:18) "unto the end" (Heb. 3:6; 6:11). But it will not exist in heaven because," hope that is seen is not hope" (Rom. 8:24). So now "we hope for that which see not" (v. 25).
3. Faith Heb 11:1: "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."
4. Hope Rom 8:24: "For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it."
5. Conclusion: Faith and hope will cease at the second coming. Only by employing a non-biblical definition of faith and hope can they be projected into all eternity.
6. The contrast has to do with the temporary and the permanent during the Christian age. Spiritual gifts were to be abolished whereas faith, hope and love continue to the end. Finally, love alone of the three qualities goes on into eternity, "God is love" (I John 4:16) and "love never fails" (1 Cor 13:8). Nothing, including death, "shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 8:39).

Something ceases	"Tongues will cease" 1 Cor 13:8
Something abides for a time after that which ceases.	"Faith & hope abide" 1 Cor 13:13 till second coming Heb 11:1; Rom 8:24
Something never ceases	Love never fails 1 Cor 13:8, the greatest of these is love because it never ceases!

7. In our chart below we see the following:

True interpretation of 1 Cor 13:8-13

Tongues --------------> cease (96 AD) Faith & Hope ----------------------------------->abide till 2nd coming Love never fails -------------------------------------------------------------------->eternity Faith and hope MUST abide longer than tongues. Faith and hope cease at second coming: Heb 11:1; Rom 8:24. Tongues must cease sometime prior to second coming!

Standard Pentecostal false interpretation

Tongues -----------------------------------------> cease at 2nd coming Faith & Hope -----------------------------------> abide till 2nd coming Love never fails -------------------------------------------------------------------->eternity Violates the context because tongues, faith and hope cease at the same time

Modified Pentecostal false interpretation

Tongues -----------------------------------------> shall cease (96 AD) Faith & Hope ----------------------------------------------------------------------->abide forever Love never fails -------------------------------------------------------------------->eternity Once Pentecostals are forced into correctly recognizing that the context demands that faith and hope outlive tongues, they then adopts an unbiblical definition of faith and hope by extending them into all eternity.

Graphic:

Conclusion

1. Summary:
0. No longer any need for gifts:
1. Apostles have been led into all truth: Jn 16:13 + Jude 3
2. The Bible has been written and confirmed to be inspired
1. Gifts ceased with apostolic age being transmitted by an apostle's hands
2. Gifts were a temporary; "scaffolding" till the church fully established.
2. Rom 10:1-3 Pentecostals are zealous but not according to knowledge or truth.

1. 2 Ti 2:25,26 May they come to their senses and escape the Devils snare

1. Jn 14:11,12 preaching the word to the lost is greater than miracles: Rom 1:16 achieved. There was only one church in the 1st century.

-- Anonymous, August 28, 2000

Answers

Dwuane good graphics, but again, non biblically sound. You have not proven the gifts have ceased- again it is a theological assumption that you make and not "historical fact".

-- Anonymous, August 29, 2000

See my answer to the "Tongues and Miracles" post...

Same principles apply. The purpose of the post was not to prove anything. It was to generate scholarly response, of which you have contributed nothing.

-- Anonymous, August 29, 2000

Duane...

I still don't see it. How is it that you link teleion with the canon when nowhere else can that be done hermeneutically in the NT? And which canon are we speaking of? Aren't we now using extrabiblical sources as a needed proof for that which is stated in the Bible? The canonization process outdates the lives of the apostles but the RM states that it is at the death of the apostles that gifts ceased...namely tongues.

If this is indeed a passage of Scripture that tells us how (and when) the supernatural gifts will cease, then why isn't there a larger discussion of this anywhere else in scripture? How come Scripture seems to be largely silent at this topic?

Teleion being the canon means that the apostle Paul knew exactly how Scripture would be preserved? Isn't that quite presumptuous on our parts to assume that we knew what was in the apostle's mind?

-- Anonymous, August 31, 2000

Thanks, Michael

I cut-n-pasted this from a church of Christ website, (www.bible.ca) for the purpose of hearing responses from other Forum members.

I agree with most of the conclusions (miracles have ceased), but not because I reached these conclusions through hard study; rather, because these were the views taught by my professors. I know now it is time to do the hard stuff--

I must add my opinions about tongues is based also on experiential knowledge (or lack thereof); ie., I have not seen nor heard of the dead raised, nor have I heard of anyone who communicated in such a way where each of the listeners heard in their own language.

Danny's remarks about tongues as a sign of judgement seems to make sense... but my study has just begun.

-- Anonymous, August 31, 2000

Did you get this from the a capella site that has the user-friendly board that has a picture of a skull for false religions and the like? I think that is an excellent resource for teachings on cults but you probably shouldn't read the section on instrumental music!!!

-- Anonymous, August 31, 2000

Mike,

I would't read the one on instrumental music either.

-- Anonymous, August 31, 2000

The 'nananana boo boo' attitude of the web page isn't very convincing to someone who holds some of the views the page attacks, especially when one sees there are flaws in their reasoning.

This article builds doctrine on theological assumption. The author says that it is a 'fact' that the body reached perfection before the falling away. This is just theological assumption. All the charts and graphics still do not prove that the canon is 'the perfect' in the passage.

Duane, Even if you take the stance that the verse from Isaiah quoted in I Corinthians 14 relates to Israel, that still is not evidence for the view that tongues ceased at the destruction of the temple. Tongues also edified the church, and so had another purpose besides being a sign to unbelievers.

Paul uses this passage to show that tongues is a sign to unbelievers. He does not argue, based on this, that tongues are a sign to the Jews. We must keep in mind that there was already a short-term fulfillment of this prophecy during the captivity. If we look at Paul's example, Paul quotes the verse, and then shows that the unbeliever or unlearned who comes into a church of Christians all speaking in tongues would say they are mad. He hears God speaking in tongues, but still does not hear God, just like in the verse. God pseaks through tongues, but they still do not hear. The way tongues worked with unbelievers was the way the captors tongues worked on Israel. To try to make this into something pointing to 70AD is a bit of a stretch, imo, and doesn't prove tongues ceased anyway.

I've seen this view about tongues as sign to Israel as an argument for cessationism from dispensationalists for this. It is odd to see this kind of dispensationalist reasoning on a RM site.

-- Anonymous, September 01, 2000

Sorry if I show some levity here, but one of the basic assumptions made causes me to chuckle. Exactly when did the church corporate EVER become "perfect" or mature? Even a casual comparison of NT teaching with what really happened shows that the corporate church has never reached maturity, and has always had these kinds of problems like we see today.

The "canon of scripture" argument will never hold water either, because you will inevitably get the "who's canon?" argument. There were several versions at the same time historically.

I like the graphics and stuff. But a convincing presentation doesn't necessarily have to be the correct information. I personally prefer a third line of reasoning, which is this: God does what He wants to when He wants to. This is a usually overlooked concept called the Sovereignty of God. He makes the rules, and can do what He wants. Using this concept as a starting point, this is my assumption:

1. To say that miracles, tongues, etc have ceased in toto is human presumption. If God wanted them, they would exist.

2. Miracles, tongues, etc are not seen because for some reason unknown to us, God doesn't want us to see them. Sorry for the simplistic answer, but that is how it appears to me. God never has to explain Hiself to us. I don't know where we picked up the idea that He does.

3. American Christians have the full, written, Word of God in immense quantities. We are presumptious to assume or expect miracles. (Like in "The Rich Man and Lazarus." If they won't believe the prophets, they won't believe a miracle either.)

4. I'll step out on a limb here, but it is my belief that modern miracles exist as proofs to those who otherwise do not have access to the written proofs. That is my explanations to why miracles seem to happen in third world countries, but not here. I could be wrong on this, but based on the circumstancial evidence which can be gleaned from the Bible, that seems to be the way miracles work today. Again, my assertion is that *miracles have ceased only in developed countries where education (particularly reading) and printing have flourished*.

I hear the agruments, but to me its like arguing apples versus oranges. Expectation of a miracle in America is unbelief because it assumes a rejection of belief of the written word. But because miracles have ceased *in America* does not prove that miracles have ceased in toto. It is folly to assume that. The "miracles have ceased" system puts man-made limitations on God, and is presumptious. It presumes that *whatever happens in America* is the norm for the rest of the world. That is NOT true. The God of the Bible is omnipotent and omnipresent. He can "multi-task" better than any Windows machine, and He is more than capable of doing different types of works in different geographical locations.

-- Anonymous, September 01, 2000

Dr. D

Your above post is not one that I would associate with your style of writing. It does not seem well thought out, but off the cuff.

In it you made a reference to "Canon of scripture". If you will carefully reread the Saffold post concerning the "revealed word of God" as opposed to the Canon I think you will find new insight into the PERFECT. If you determine the PERFECT to be the completed word of God it would be impossible to hold the view you have just stated.

Concerning miracles and miraculos manifestation of tongues you stated, if God wanted them they would exist. I agree. But, he did and now he doesn't. To say that God does not do away with or change things seems to me to make it difficult to explain the LAW and GRACE. You have said, God doesn't want us to see them,(tongues and miracles).Will God heal someone in a third world country and refuse to heal an American in Illinois? I don't think you believe that. I suggest A carefull reading of Dannys post on the purpose of tongues and Scotts post on PERFECT for a biblical view on these subjects.

I have accumulated my fair share of third world time and know persons involved in missionary work.I do not know of a time when the work of the Holy Spirit through the teaching of the word of God has been so insufficient as to necessitate speaking in tongues and/or miracles, regardless of location.

Dr.D. One of my favorite books is titled, SHADOW AND SUBSTANCE. It compares many OT and NT issues. It is a demonstration of Gods divine plan and the changes that are occurring along the way. God considered these things to be necessary at one time,"tongues and miracles" but this does not mean that this is his method now. Someone else also liked the book. I loaned it and it was never returned.

This week I buried my best friends dad. We have been friends for 47 years. They are a very good and kind family, but they are not Christians, with the exception of my friend. After the funeral we gathered in one of the homes. There was a large number of very good people there. My thoughts often turned to wondering how or what I could do to win them. If I could have just healed the one that died they may have believed. We both know I could not do that. Winning them now must be accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the teaching of the word.

Ecc. states there is a time and a place for everything. When considering gifts we need to take this into consideration.

Faris

ps. Dr.D. As I write this my daughter is being operated on. I have prayed for her and the surgeon and trust Gods will to be done. God has granted the surgeon the knowledge and ability to do this. I believe this is a example of the way God works today.

-- Anonymous, September 01, 2000

Faris -

You are right on several things. My last post was off the cuff, written at 6:30 in the morning. The "canon" comment, however, is important. The quote was >>Gifts ceased upon the completion of the canon.<< Using I Cor. to buttress this point is a stretch, because it necessitates that a) Paul was prophesying, which creates another whole set of difficulties to the argument, and b) The canon as we know it was argued about by those at the time. So it is open to a different line of argument. I'm not saying I disagree, but that the line of reasoning is open to attack by critics.

I think we actually agree on these things. You said:

>>I do not know of a time when the work of the Holy Spirit through the teaching of the word of God has been so insufficient as to necessitate speaking in tongues and/or miracles, regardless of location. <<

That was supposed to be the main part of my point. The Holy Spirit through the teaching of the Word of God is the active element in bringing men to Christ. Trust me, I firmly believe in "Scripture alone." As to my remarks, I do have an explanation. Having never been a witness to any alleged miraculous situations in a third world country, I cannot say that such thing happened or didn't happen. If God wanted to so work, I believe He can. (That is my point on that.) But it is equally error to make sweeping generalizations that God absolutely does not do anything miraculous simply because we say so. A miracle by definition is an exception, not a rule. My point was that God is not limited by our theologies, but only by His own choices. We don't have to agree on this; its just how I can best explain it to myself.

-- Anonymous, September 01, 2000

Dr. D.

I am glad to see that we are, in fact, much in agreement. I am still working out for myself, what is a miracle.

1. When I pray for the sick, am I asking for a miracle?

2. Any prayer of request, am I asking for a miracle?

3. Is Gods response in these things a miracle or blessing?

4. Miracles are still in store for us (ie) 2nd coming.

I have a lot to learn.

-- Anonymous, September 01, 2000

I hear more reports about great miracles like raising the dead taking place in places where there are a lot of unbelievers, rather than in the US. If we look at the situation in the Bible, many miracles were done in areas where the gospel was first preached. The words translated 'preach' tend to be used in contexts that refer to evangelistic proclomation of the gospel. (Many people nowadays define 'preaching' as teaching from behind a pulpit or talking with a certain style or tone of voice.) The gospel was preached accompanied with signs and wonders. When it was first preached among the Hebrews, for example, we see that it was accompanied with signs and wonders (Hebrews 2.) Paul preached the gospel among the Corinthians accompanied with signs and wonders. But even after all the preaching that had gone on in Corinth, still the gift of working of miracles continued was found in the body for mutual benefit. So while miracles may seem to occur in scripture where the gospel is being initially proclaimed, it doesn't stand to reason that the Lord would not do a miracle in the church in an area wher ethe gospel is already preached, taught, and people have copies of the New Testament. You say that God is not doing miracles in America nowadays for some reason. I can think of a couple of things that I would classify as 'miracles' in a Biblical sense that I know of in America. They are posted on different threads. I went to a Christian school when I was in the 7th grade. An 8th grader at my wchool was severely and noticeably cross-eyed. I didn't know her well, but I didn't have to to see that she was cross-eyed. I saw her in the halls. We went to the same church, along with most of the students. An evangelist came ot chruch and was praying for crowds of people who had come to the front for prayer. The next day, people were telling me that that girl had been healed. I walked right up to her and saw with my own eyes. Her eye's weren't crossed anymore. Before this, she had crossed eyes and big coke-bottle glasses. That happened in the US. I told another story about a woman being prayed for before a crusade, who said she couldn't breathe withou her oxygen. I didn't know her before, but the woman next to me had seen her stlowly walk down connected to her oxygen tank. They didn't parade her on a stage or anythinjg. Ushers and regular folks around her prayed for her, and I talked to her and did an informal interview after everything was done with. I went to a crusade one time when a preacher prayed for a woman who said she was deaf, and she said she could hear out of her ear after she was prayed for. I've known other people who have been healed in the US. Since I believe God can heal lik this in answer to prayer, I'm not overly skeptical, but I didn't know the woman before she came in, so I can't vouch for that like I can for the girl with the crossed eye.

Walking around the streets of America, I didn't see these things every day. I didn't see them happening as common as some of the points of time in the book of Acts. Of course, in Acts, there are pages where there are no, or few, miracles mentioned, and Luke even points out points in time where God granted for miracles to be done. So I don't knwo that the apostles ministry was full of miracles every day. The apostles did miracles on their two-by-two missions for sure. Beyond that, aside from casting out devils, I can't think of any other mention of miracles that they did before Acts. In Acts 4, after persecution, the apostles prayed for God to stretch out his hand and do signs and wonders in the name of Jesus. After that, we hear about people trying to get in Peter's shadow so they could get healed, and other miracles. If the apostles could do miracles like Superman uses his powers in the comics- at will, any time they wanted from their own human wills- why did they need to pray for God to stretch forth His hand to do signs and wonders. If miracles were done _purely_ at will, why did Paul leave a friend sick at Meletus? There was an ebb and flow to miracles and such things in the book of Acts. btw.)

I really don't see how you can conclude that it is a lack of faith forpeople to pray for miracles in America. If someone wants to ask to see a miracle before he believes, then I can see your point. But if someone already believes in Christ, like the apostles in Acts 4, to ask in faith for God to stretch forth His hand to do signs and wonders. There is a place for this type of prayer.

When the Pharisees came to Jesus asking for a sign, He said that a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign. But that does not mean that whoever prays for a sign is wicked and adulterous. The apostles asked for God to do signs and wonders.

I think the kind of sign the Jews are talking about can be found in Deuteronomy. If a prophet gave a sign and prophesied that something would come to pass in the name of the Lord, and it did not come to pass, they considered that man to be a false prophet. If it came to pass, and the man said to follow other gods, they were still not to heed it. We see examples of these kinds of signs. One one occasion, God told the king of Judah, through Isaiah, to ask for a sign. But the king refused. He was rebuked for not asking for a sign, and the Lord Himself gave the sign of Immanuel. On another occasion, hezekiah did ask for a sign. Isaiah prophesied tha the would live. He asked Isaiah for a sign that he would go up to the hous eof the LORD (maybe because he would probably have to live and get better to go to the temple.) The sign was for the shadow on the steps to move backwards. Here we see the fulfillment of a short term prophecy as a sign of a longer term prophecy.

The only sign Christ would give these men who were asking Him for a sign wwas the sign of the prophet Jonah. He would be in the heart of the earth as Jonah was in the belly of the whale. This was a sign to validate Jesus' ministry.

(Some of this is directed at others arguments rather than your own,

The apostles were being opposed, and they prayed for God to do these things. The miracles brought attention to the gospel, and encouraged people to believe. This is part of the 'confirming' feature of signs and wonders in the Bible. What I do NOT see in the Bible is that 'confirming' the word with signs and wonders means that the miracles doen confirmed the complete gospel, Bible, canon, or what have you , for all time. The 'confirming' nature of signs and wonders works on those who in some way are effected by the signs and wonderss, or testimonies thereof. If we look at how signs and wonders effected people in the New Testament, we can se that some of those who knew about Lazarus' resurrection, put their faith in Christ because of him. Some of the Jeiwsh leaders were even thinking about killing Lazarus because of this. Hearing the apostles talk about Jesus miracles in the gospel would probablyt not have exactly the same effect on the Luaconians as seeing Paul tell a man to walk in Jesus name, and see that man rise and walk. So why would reading about the apostles miracles in the Bible 'confirm' the word in the same way that the miracles did to those who saw them firsthand? Also, we need to keep in mind that a lot of people overestimate the power of a miracle to make people believe. the israelites saw mriacle after miracle, but still kept falling into unbelief. There were many who refused to believe in Jesus. He would do miracles before their eyes on the sabbath day, and they would get angry at Him for doing miracles on the sabbath.

Praying for a miracle under the right circumstances is not a display of a lack of faith. In fact, people needed faith to receive miracles in the New testament. Jesus could not do a lot of miracles in His own hometown because of their unbelief. We live in a society where there are still plenty of people who do not believe in thesupernatural. This attitude has penetrated churches. Many church organizations do not believe in miracles or the supernatural. Others believe that miracles happened in the Bible, but in everday life nowadays, they are skeptical about miracles occuring. Should we expect for a lot of miracles to be done in this environment? Not only does America have a lot of Bibles, but there is a lot of people who don't believe in miracles or the supernatural. When Peter walked on water, though he believed Jesus was the Christ, he began to look at the wind and waves, and doubted. He began to sink into the sea. Jesus asked Him why He doubted. There can be a lack of miracles among Christians because they don't have faith formiracles.

One reason some people fight so hard against the idea that God _might_ do miracles is because they don't see miracles in their own experience. In the RM, there are plenty who hold to the idea that they are 'not the only Christians but Christians only' but there are plenty of others who think that have an exclusive attitude about the RM, or about certain churches in the RM. If I believed that my church was the One True Church (tm) and that everyone else was gong to hell, I might be looking for any type of argument I could find to try to make the church of the Bible look like my church. An exclusive attitude can blind someone from the difference between his church, and the church inthe Bible. It not only happens to people who are in denominations, who think that their denomination is the best, but also to some in independant RM churches, who think that their type of church is the best, or in some cases the only church. I think that is why we can see peole who can come across people who argue for such things as acapella-only meetings, not just based on the fact that the NT does not instruct us to use instruments in our meetings, and that it was not the practice of (at least some stage of) the primitive church- but they actually come up with arguments to make using instruments in chruch wrong or a sin. In order to feel justified in thinking their church is right, they are quick to believe such arguments. (Btw, I haven't seen Lee explain his views on the subject, but I've run across some pretty rediculous arguments from other acapellists.) I think this type of problem can be seen when people not only speculate that 'the perfect' may refer to the canon or completed revelation or whatever, but actually start building DOCTRINE on such speculation. There is nothing in the text to indicate that the perfect refers to completed gospel revelation, etc. But someone who who believes that his church, which does not have tongues or identifiable manifestations of prophecy, is right, might be quick to make a doctrine out of such speculation.

I think it is somewhat natural for people to think their own church is closest to the Bible. A lot of people try to find a church that follows the Bible, or believe that their chruch is doing that. Otherwise, they would find another church. And it is natural to want to be certain of a knew theological position before changing to another. If someone is floating out on the ocean on an iceburg, and sees another iceburg and is thinking about moving onto that one, he will want to be sure that the new iceburg is more stable than the old one. Most of us are not too quick to give up positions that we've held to.

I agree that God is sovereign, and not seeing miracles around us does not prove that God does not do them. On the other hand, if we can see how God operates in the Bible, and if we don't believe that God will do miracles it makes sense that we don't see them too often.

-- Anonymous, September 01, 2000

Faris,

You wrote, >>I have accumulated my fair share of third world time and know persons involved in missionary work.I do not know of a time when the work of the Holy Spirit through the teaching of the word of God has been so insufficient as to necessitate speaking in tongues and/or miracles, regardless of location. <<<<

There were tongues among the Corinthians, and the Lord did unusual miracles through the handsof Paul in Ephesus. Do you think that Paul's teaching of the word of God was 'insufficient' in either of these two places.

The Bible does not teach that miracles or tongues occur only when Bible teaching is insufficient. God has chosen the 'foolishness of preaching to save them that believe' but miraclews and otngues have their place as well.

-- Anonymous, September 01, 2000

Faris,

In the NT, there are at least two words translated as 'miracle.' ONe is 'dunamis,' the word for power. This shows up in the gift list in I Corinthians 14. Another often used inthe gospels means something like a sign or token.

Raising the dead, healing the sick, turning water into wine, feeding the 5000 and various other things are called 'miracles' in the Bible. I Corinthians 13 doesn't say that MIRACLES will cease, anyway. Sometimes, it is hard to distinguish what is a miracle and wha tis not. We can just read the Bible, and see what kinds of things God does. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that God has stopped healing people in respose to prayer, or that we shouldn't pray for such things.

Jesus said not to forbid those casting out demons in His name, because those who did miracles in His name could not lightly speak against Him. it would seem that casting out a demon is a miracle.

if someone gets legalistic about saying miracles has ceased, based on their theological beliefs (though the Bible doesn't teach this) what should they do when they run across someone who is demonized? Just leave him alone and say that there are no more miracles these days?

-- Anonymous, September 01, 2000