This needs its own thread, it's spread about all over the shop.

I think we just treat the defenders in an arse-about-face way. They should be organising things on the setpieces themselves and looking for support during open play, but the way we do it is that Uncle Tom Cobbley and all come back for corners but everyone just shrugs their shoulders when a player goes past the midfield in open play and watch the defenders get ripped apart.

In any job, if you have been given responsibility for something but everyone else insists on keeping their hand in because it's a tricky task, you just work like an automaton and never really get to grips with it because you never feel like you are trusted to get on with it. Look at us on corners: on Sunday Goma, Marcelino and Dabizas should have been marking the danger men and Given should have been placing men on the posts and letting the others know about areas he was concerned about. Instead, we had Shearer back, Speed back, Lee back and nobody was in charge. Simple solution. Get the rest of them out of there. Leave the defenders to do their job. If a particular player is a real threat then one of the defenders should be asking Speed or Shearer to lend a hand. If they are given full, glaring responsibility and are made aware that they and they alone are being entrusted with it, they will do a much better job imo.

Conversely, when we get hit on the break, it seems that only the defenders track all the way back while the rest of them stand with hands on hips shaking their heads. It might sound hypocritical after the last paragraph, but I think it takes the whole lot of them to get into trouble on a break, and they should all work to get themselves out of it. It used to be Lee and Gillespie tracking back when we were a top side: first into the attack and first to help out at the back: maybe it's just the comparative lack of pace in midfield now. Dyer was putting himself about well in the second half and Nobby did a bit, but as soon as Derby got 25 yards from goal the defenders were abandoned to their own devices.

All of this is made so much harder when it's a new pair of faces every game. For God's sake, we've had 5 players at centre half in 2 games and lost 2 through injuries already!

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

Answers

IMHO there is a deep rooted problem here. Defensively we haven't been able to really shut out teams consistently for a few years. Different players have come and tried, different coaches have come and tried.

I suggested this a couple of days ago, expecting some criticism but I think Barton and Dabizas are not right. They are the common link between all the problems defensively, coincidence? I don't think so.

Dabizas puts his head where it hurts and scores the odd goal. The same could be said of Barton, who I respect for his 100% efforts.

Last night I thought that with Dabs being injured and Barton being sent off, we will have a chance to see if there is a difference. I only hope Griffin is fit to play in Barton's abscence.

As has been said on another thread, the managers must have tried to sort out the defence but the players are just not up to it. How can we bring a French international like Goma to this club and make him look like he can't defend!!?

My view is it can't be the coaching just the players. I'd like to see out back four lining up like this Griffin, Goma , Hughes and Domi, and I'd prefer a more dominant defender to Hughes. We desperately need someone to organise these lot i.e. Hughes replacement. Shearer as captain can't do it from up the other end.

As Softie says the midfielders may be complicating matters at set pieces, but in open play we need the midfield to protect the back four, or at least have one fella in the holding position taking the ball from the back four and distributing so they have the time to organise.

It sounds so back to basics but I think that is what we're lacking. I anyone else of the opinion that we have suffered ever since David Batty left?

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

I've said this for a while - we need a captain in defence. Even if he's not actually captain, we need a leader, someone who's confident and experienced enough to control the back four. A talker. I remember watching Dabizas and Charvet as CB's in the cup final and thinking they looked like two men who'd walked up to a car, each thinking the other had the keys.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

Keeping it all on the 'defensive thread'. Domi seems to be saying the right things, so they know what is wrong but just can't carry it out, how can you work with people like that?

"We know we have a lot of work to do on our movement as a defence. We've got to stay closer together and push out, not stay on the edge of the box."

Confidence

"Tottenham are a good team so we know we are going to have to be on the top of our game if we're to keep a clean sheet."

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

I really don't think the problem is having too many defenders at corners, but as Softie does suggest, it's one a problem of organisation and discipline, or more accurately the lack thereof.

Having 20 defenders wouldn't solve our problem if they aren't properly organised and capable.

I noticed last night for instance Given arguing with the one defender who was on the line at a corner as to whether he should be marking the opponent who was standing in front of Given - unmarked!

AS's near-post position from corners is premeditated and generally very successful, but are the others similarly rehearsed in what they are supposed to do? I've been to C-L-S several times and believe the defenders are given very clear assignments as to who they will be picking up in games - I just think they are incapable of doing it routinely and successfully.

Another for instance - it was clear that Goma had been assigned to pick up Stam at corners on Sunday. First corner that comes in Stam beats Goma all ends up and Given has to make a brilliant tip over from his header. From the resulting corner Johnsen beats guess who - Goma - to the ball and heads in. So, if Goma was supposed to be marking Stam, who was detailed to mark Johnsen (I think it was Dabs), where was he, why did Goma need to make a late and depairing attempt to prevent Johnsen having a free header, and what would have happened if the ball had actually gone to Stam (couldn't have been any worse than it turned out, I suppose)???

Much as I admire his bravery and commitment, I actually believe Dabizas' lack of defensive discipline is part of the problem, but not all of it. IMO the main problem is the lack of a defensive general who can react to situations on the field, make any necessary adjustments, and organise and cajole the defenders around him. AS can not do this from CF.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

I'm just phoning Bobby Robson I think we've cracked it! Damn his mobile is turned off. ;0D

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

It's not the numbers that defend on corners that concerns me, it's the reasons for their being there.

When I first started working as a navvy, I didn't have a clue but had loads of enthusiasm. The first time I tried running a wheelbarrow full of clay up a plank into a skip I got it all wrong and ran out of momentum before I reached the top and started sliding back down before falling off the side with the barrow on top of me. How we laughed :-( Anyway, one of the old hands demonstrated how I ought to do it, showing me to take the barrow up at speed and use that momentum to fling it up and reverse your grip at the top of the arc: piece of piss. Now, if he'd decided that I had made a pig's ear of it so he would tip the barrows for me, I would have only ever been a half decent navvy. As it was, I didn't need any help after that unless things got really treacherous with wet clay when you'd get a mate to help lift barrows into the skip rather than risk the run.

A torturous analogy maybe, but it's the heart of our problem. People aren't back there on set pieces to help out, they're there because nobody thinks the defenders are up to it. Where are they supposed to get self confidence from under those conditions? As we all agree, Bobby must nominate a leader at the back, since nobody looks like volunteering, and his job will be to say who does what and call for help if it's needed. The way everyone else troops into the box is just self-fulfilling prophesy at the moment: they show the defenders how little they trust them on every corner and it's a cycle that will only get worse.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

Softie, your analogy is very apt. Defence: we had one but the wheel came off :-))

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

We would 'ave defended that corner only we woz waiting for the undercoat to dry, guvnor.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

Or we defend like we're pushing wet shit up a grassy bank, you think you're getting somewhere but then it all comes back to haunt you and you end up where you began, surrounded by shit.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

To be fair to YBR, he's been working his arse off to get his defensive general in. It's Helder he wants; the main reason aside from having a lovely touch is that he reads the game so damned well. Don't give a monkey's if his English isn't great. All he needs to know for matches is 3 other player's names and a few expletives.

When you're routinely a back 4 against 2 strikers, you should be quite happy for your CB general not to run about anywhere unless it's an emergency. Set pieces he tells everyone what to do.

You'll note that what upsets Tony Adams most is if he has to break into a sweat. Just watch the bollocking that any of the rest of his defence get if he has to make a challenge.

Good attacking sides as opposition need a powerful midfield. We have to be prepared to play 4-5-1 for long periods away from home.

As you say Softie, it's down to trust. The back four should be a happy dictatorship.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

"The back four should be a happy dictatorship."

Somehow I can't help but feel that that was a cue for Klaus Hachmeyer to make some suggestions on organization...

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

I totally agree with Geordie Jew. We need a captain at the back. IMHO thats where orders should come from. No disrespect at all to Alan Shearer, but perhaps YBR should "promote" Al to Club Captain and give the "on the field" or Team Captains job to somebody with a big mouth who is not worried about spazzing out at his team mates. It would also let Big Al concentrate on his game up front. Warren Barton comes to mind, or...give it back to Rob Lee when he plays.

Pete

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

as Softie says, and as I've alluded to before, it's trusting each other. Not just with players filling the box trying to do defensive duties, but amongst the defenders themselves. The centre backs are too easily confused as to who's doing what. They don't have the understanding between each other to know when a situation changes from one person's responsibility to another's. Like two cricket fielders going for the same catch (or both expecting the other to take it and watching it hit the ground between them). There isn't always the time to say 'yours' either. It really is just trust and understanding and awareness of the overall situation. They should know without looking where their co-defenders will be. It's patently obvious they haven't a clue. Good news is that it can be worked on, and some stability without injuries will help no end.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

Sounds like we need to ask George Graham if we can borrow his Dixon- Bould-Adams-Winterburn rope. It might be a bit worn but it should do the trick. That is what we are talking about in essence here, positional sense. I seem to remember Gullit remarking about Domi and Goma's positional play when they signed so is it Dabizas and Barton that are messing things up?

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

Oh foe Dumas back...

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

Dougal,

TURN YOUR MOBILE ON!!

(Apologies to everbody else for shouting!)

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

And what a tremendous piece of BBS etiquete there by Steph, quite remarkable!

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

According to Planet Football

THE transfer of Elana Marcelino from Newcastle to Celta Vigo appears to have moved a step closer, with sources in Spain claiming that the player is on the brink of agreeing terms and the clubs just need to reach a fee. The central defender is said to be keen to make the move, in order to end his nightmare stay on Tyneside, where he has failed to hold down a regular first-team place.

Celta coach Victor Fernandez is close to agreeing terms with the 28- year-old, with the only loose end to tie up is the length of the player's contract.

Vigo have offered Toon boss Bobby Robson #2.9 million for the Gijon- born stopper, but Newcastle are wanting #4.7 million.

2.9 million? A Big loss considering he was bought for nearly 6 million. Would you accept it? Could be another appearance of the Freddie and Bobby Stubborn Transfer Show!!

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

The plain facts are:
a) Marcelino will be leaving b) no one is going to pay #6mm for a player who has failed to make any impact in the PL c) we are going to lose another boatload of money on him. d) we need to move him on and get another, perhaps two, good CB's in, and quickly IMHO.

It seems to me that if BR could get say #3.5-4.0 million for the blerk we should just do it and move on.

The report on Planetfootball says Celta Vigo are also targeting Sao Paulo midfielder Edu - the player Arsenal almost signed - but would have to sell one of their other non-EU stars to bring the player in.
They add - Brazilian striker Catanha is a likely departure - someone we were reportedly interested in recently - but Valeri Karpin, Beni McCarthy and Goran Djorovic have all been linked with the exit door in recent weeks.

I saw Beni McCarthy on TV recently - against Villa was it? - and he looked absolutely top-class: lightning fast and a good finisher. Goodness knows how much they would want for him in a swap deal, and he wouldn't solve our defensive problems, but nevertheless he would a fantastic acquisition.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

Great thread.

Loved Dan's analogy of Dabs and Charvet each going to the car thinking the other had the keys. (Each possibly assuming that as he couldn't drive maybe the other one could.) (-;

The building site analogy is nice too. "Ooooh - who put this defence together for you then? - this is gonna cost ya".

As mentioned already, leadership at the back is key and surely this should come from the man who has to pick the pieces up if it falls apart in front of him. The keeper should be more commanding IMHO.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

Ronnie reckons Deportivo have told YBR to f off. Helder is not for sale. He's reported to be playing really well in the pre-season build up. Damn. We could have got him last season if we'd had some cash.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

Dabizas will be unavailable for at least two weeks as he is having exploratory surgery on his 'wrenched' knee. Could be out for 5-6 weeks.

Journal repots that we have watched Chris Morgan from Barnsley a few times this year and could use Garry Brady in an exchange deal. Best use of a Garry Brady I ever saw. "We give you Garry Brady and you give us some new footballs, oh and we'll give you 3 million for your brilliant young centre back!"

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

Dabizas will be unavailable for at least two weeks as he is having exploratory surgery on his 'wrenched' knee. Could be out for 5-6 weeks.

Journal reports that we have watched Chris Morgan from Barnsley a few times this year and could use Garry Brady in an exchange deal. Best use of a Garry Brady I ever saw. "We give you Garry Brady and you give us some new footballs, oh and we'll give you 3 million for your brilliant young centre back!"

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

Just reiterating my point for some unknown technical reason!

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

Does anybody remember that some Serie A team, like Fiorentina or Juventus, were after Dabizas for about 5 million pounds as a defender who could play the ball out of defense about a year to year to 18 months ago. We should have snapped their hands off then.

As to the current crisses. Just blody well go and pay what ever it takes to get Gareth Barry from Villa.

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

I believe it was Inter who fancied Dabs, Tre.

Can't agree with you on Barry. He's a very good player, but inexperienced, and not the commanding Centre Half that we need - IMO, of course.
I don't really think he would be a huge improvement over Aaron Hughes. In any event there is no way Villa would sell him with both Southgate and Ehiogu wanting to be out.

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

Fiorentina were also interested in Dabizas according to the press. Just signed a new contract so at least he can't go anywhere for free, something which must have been in Bobby's mind given the money that was being banded about for the Kalkalash King!

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

I went to the Rivorside where I met Steph (a permanemt fixture these days) and Jonno. I'll leave Steph to post a detailed report.

One interesting point. In the 8/9-a-side, both sides played with 3 at the back. Huhes was LB on one side and Charvet was CB on the other. Hmmm - I wonder what Bobby's thinking is for tomorrow???

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

Hmmm - I wonder what Bobby's thinking is for tomorrow???

Please don't let any defenders get injured...
Please don't let any defenders get injured...
Please don't let any defenders get injured...
Please don't let any defenders get injured...
Please don't let any defenders get injured...


-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

Go on Screacher tell us some more, you know you wanna! ;0)

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

At ease Screach, I've just read Steph's excellent report. Mind you it wouldn't hurt to get another angle on the matter. Any news such as this is so valuable.

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

All info from the official site:

Dabizas out 2 to 3 months after minor surgery on the cartilage in his knee.

Cort out 2 to 3 weeks with a minor groin strain.

Bassedas injury has not healed well and doctors expect his recovery to take longer than expected.

Rob Lee is still out with his calf problem.

Marcelino is out for a couple of weeks with his finger?!? Why? he runs on his legs not his hands. It just mean he should keep the finger strpapped during games and not go pulling anyone shirt.

Gallacher still getting treatment for a thigh injury but is in contention for the weekends squad.

Griffin is supposedly recovered from his groin strain and back in the squad.

-- Anonymous, August 26, 2000

If it's a centre back you're looking for, then you could do a lot worse than Sandi Knavs (a young Slovenian defender currently in Austria). He's 23 or so, and is attracting interest from Bayern. He also had a trial with Leeds last summer. I've seen him mark Flo brilliantly twice, and he is going to get stronger.

Dan 2

-- Anonymous, August 26, 2000

Well, who'd have thought, Goma and Hughes play together in consecutive matches and start looking useful together. It only takes time and fitness. Another collection of terrific saving tackles from Domi again today as well, another player written off as a 'crap defender' before he'd had a chance. Hugely encouraging display by the back 5 unit. The usual collection of dodgy moments, but overall a highly competent display.

-- Anonymous, August 26, 2000

I saw Marcelino in Strawberry Place yesterday - he was walking along with some heavy looking bloke and he had his whole arm in a sling inside his tracky top. I doubt he could play in a sling! He looked miserable as sin by the way - could have been because everyone was ignoring him! I did wonder what the Spanish was for "Watcheor Marcelino, marra, wot fettle th'day like?" but I just couldn't bring it to mind.

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2000