The following comes out of something that started in the "Emotions in Worship" thread, but that is getting extremely long. It seems recently to have migrated to the "Lee Saffold, are you out there?" thread, but that is already a mish-mash of different themes and this might easily get lost there. So perhaps it is time to start a new thread on a new aspect of the situation. (And could I humbly request that you keep your accusations and counter-accusations of lying back on the other threads?)

In the midst of all the acrimony about whether or not AKelley "lied" in what he said about his own experiences about speaking in tongues, there is something very significant that he said about his experiences (and Connie said something similar about hers) that has been almost completely overlooked.

In AKelley's explanation of what he meant when he said he had "personally experienced" speaking in "tongues", he said that when he had been in the presence of some others and they had spoken in "tongues" he had experienced a great sense of peace and of the presence of God. (AKelley, is that fairly accurate? I suppose I ought to quote your exact words, but finding them in the other thread and then moving back and forth from thread to thread to import them here would take more time than I have this morning.) Connie also said something similar -- that one reason she was convinced that the gift of "tongues" was valid for today was the similar sense of great peace that she had experienced when someone in her son's church prayed over her in "tongues".

In other words, they both "know" that what they witnessed was "the real thing" -- the same gift that the Bible describes -- because of something that is totally SUBJECTIVE. I think Lee Saffold MAY have made some mention of this aspect, but if so it got lost in all the argument over whether or not AKelley actually lied. John Wilson mentioned this fact, but only to say that since AKelley testified about a subjective experience, we could not say that he was lying since we had not had the experience he had. That's true, but since it was subjective it also CANNOT "prove" what AKelley and Connie would like for it to prove.

When my daughter was ready to leave H.K. and go to the U.S. to college, the (inter-denominational) youth group she attended had a "send-off" for her and the others who were leaving for college. Various people prayed for them, and at least one prayed over my daughter in "tongues". Rather than feeling the sense of profound peace that AKelley and Connie describe, she felt very nervous and uncomfortable. Does her experience "prove" that modern-day "tongues" are Satanic in origin? Or does it mean that some instances of "tongues" are from God and some from Satan? (Link Hudson's stock answer to cases I have brought up of self-proclaimed "prophets" and "healers" who have failed to do what they said they would has been that there have always been false prophets and false healers.) Then how are we to distinguish between them? By the subjective feelings of the witnesses? What if some have one reaction and some the other to the same instance of "tongues-speaking"?

To go a step further, John Wilson mentioned the feelings his stepmother had with regard to the Book of Mormon, which convinced her that it must be true. I don't know if there is any religion in the world that doesn't produce similar feelings of peace and nearness to God (or, depending on the religion, of being "one with the universe") in certain circumstances among at least some of its adherents.

I'm not sure how much "press" the Falun Gong movement is getting in the U.S. This movement is really producing passionate loyalty among its adherents in China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and other places. Many of them are openly challenging the government of the Chinese mainland, and are going on hunger strikes and going to prison for the sake of their movement. (Shades of Christianity at certain times and places!) What produces this passion in them? For some, it's probably philosophical. It "makes sense" to them. But for most, it is the results that following the teachings of the movement have produced in their lives -- the sense of inner peace it has brought, etc., etc.

This is why I have been so insistent that what the Bible says and OBJECTIVE facts MUST take priority over "feelings", no matter how deep an impression the feelings may have made on the one who experiences them.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2000

Answers

The subjective CAN NEVER become orthodoxy.

If AKelley or Connie want to believe they "witnessed tongue speaking from God and believe it gave them peace." Fine. I have no problem with that.

What I have a problem with is when they call into question the maturity of people's sprirituality who take the objective position that the Holy Spirit gets blamed for way too much today.

Historically, charismatics (or those who have leaned that way) have always, like the Gnostics of old, had an aire of "My sprirituality is deeper than yours." That has come across more than once on this forum.

Witness the judgment that churches are dead if they don't clap or lift hands.

That is a subjective test of orthodoxy.....not an objective one.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2000

AKelley....

Your last post may be one of the most well thought out responses I have ever seen you make....and I commend you for it!!

While I disagree with your theological perspective, I most heartily agree with the way you manifested your perspective in that post.

It really was a very good post.

Thanks!!!

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2000

Oooh Benjamin.....

If I didn't know better, I'd think those last posts were some of mine.

I like 'em!!!

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

AKelley....what is so hard to understand about this???

All you have to do is promise us a legitimate demonsration of the miraculous gifts and I personally will repent and fall down and praise God.

Face it my friend.....you mouth writes checks your lack of spiritual gifts can't cash.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

A.Kelley.....

I mean this from the bottom of my heart.....there is no need for an apology. I have no problem with "heated" discussions. A couple times I think you crossed the line from the argument....to me personally....but....it happens sometimes. Personally, I enjoy our "discussions?!?!" and look forward to more.

As per "Top Gun"....yep....great movie!!

Lee....I just want you to consider something. This is just my opinion and you do with it what you want. You know how I feel about you....so that's a given.

From my perspective, and past experience, the term "liar" implies a deliberate deception.

I don't think that A.Kelley....ever intended to deliberately deceive.

I don't agree with his view. I would not be able to work with him in a church situation as minister/associate. I am concerned about the logical conclusions of some of his positions. I think his subjective experiences override some of his knowledge of biblical theology.

Now that being said, I do not think he wakes up in the morning and thinks...."Now how can I deceive the brethren?"

Granted....he may have confused some facts......he may have jarbled some words.....said some things he regretted saying earlier on.....but in my opinion......they were honest mistakes.

I humbly offer this for your consideration.

I love you with the love of Christ....just as I love A.Kelley.

Always your brother,

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

Robin....

I think you would agree that Lee would be the best qualified to answer your question. The rest of what we would offer (at least on my part) would be conjecture.

By the way.....how is your deer season shaping up?? Done any preseason scouting??

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2000

Robin.....

I've been watching a couple of nice bucks for about a month now. Our bow season opens Oct. 1st. One is a 10 and the other is an 8. The eight will go 120......and the ten will probably "make book" at around 135.

However, I just can't seem to pattern them right now. The crops this year are abundant due to more than average rain....and they just don't seem to be "settling down."

Well.....at least I've got them pegged to a general 160 acre area!:):)

Then....there's always Kansas. I'll be there for a week to bowhunt in mid-Nov......and my 15 year old pulled a rifle tag for the first week of Dec.

I already know what's going to happen there. He's going to end up getting the huge 160 class buck I've been hunting for going on my third year. Always happens!!! So.....I better get him in mid- Nov......or get ready to mount it for him!:)

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2000

Benjamin,

Thanks for your calm and to-the-point take on this (and other threads)!

Robin

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2000

Ben, you are accurate on my feelings toward the issue. I did experience tongues through someone else. I described it on the August 15, 2000 post on the emotions thread, that the "joy and peace and unexplainable power that flooded my soul was undeniable" . That indeed may be subjective. But yet I back it up with scripture. Lee has failed to prove that the gifts have ceased and I do not think that anyone can. The scriptures do not point to a time when the tongues or any gift such as healing when the apostles died or their disciples whom they had hands laid upon them died. In I Cor 1:7 Paul says that "Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed." Can Paul allude to the day of Christ return, I for one think it is very plausable.

Can one be objective on the issue and still have confidence in the subjective experience... I think so. How do we explain the existance of electicity? How can we explain God creating us or the cosmos? Can we explain or prove the existance of heaven? Yes, God's word tells us about it, but can we truly know? What about Paul or John who had an "out of body type of experience"? Paul new a man who visited the third heaven (some scholars say it was Paul himself- maybe)II Cor 12, and John visited heaven on the Lord's day when he was in the "spirit" in the book of Revelation, also Peter have a heaven vision as the sheet of food came down out of heaven. What does this mean? How can we objectively believe this? Yes, they were inspired, but still their experiences where in the subjective realm. Can truth come from the subjective realm? Yes, it can. In regards to heaven Paul said, "We walk by faith not by sight" (II Cor 5:7). Does everything have to be so scientific for us to beleive in it? Paul seemed to indicate that he boasted about the man who was caught into the "third heaven" or paradise- this is subjective, yet Paul gave his amen for it. Too often we rely on the objective and distrust the subjective- they can compliment each other.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2000

Danny, I do not agree with those who say, "You are not a Christian unless you speak in tongues." That is an unbiblical statement.

I Also realize my folly, in the begining of the emotions thread, to label people dead if they show no emotion. But, try to understand... that line of reasoning comes from experience whether it is objective or subjective. Emotion, if feel, is far better than no emotion at all. Yes, emotion can be bad when taken to an extreme, but emotion is a healthy responce. Most Doctors and phsychologist will point out the benefits of joy in a persons life. I once heard of a study that state people who attend church related activities not only fair better during stressful times but are healthier.

I agree that we cannot make orthodoxy out of a subjective experience alone, but when they both agree then there is harmony.

Can a subjective experience with a spiritual gift back up its existance, when the scripture is ambigious on their existance today? I think so. I do not think it is out of order to think God can do what He wants when he wants regardless of our theological understanding.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2000

Hello, Benjamin,

I re-post from above:

This is why I have been so insistent that what the Bible says and OBJECTIVE facts MUST take priority over "feelings", no matter how deep an impression the feelings may have made on the one who experiences them.

-- Benjamin Rees (rees@hkstandard.com), August 22, 2000

I agree completely, and the Scriptures say:

I Corinthians 14:39,40: NASB

39: Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.

40: But let all things be done properly and in an orderly manner.

Have you missed the point I have made in the telling of that story ~ that I believed much the way you do (with the exception that I don't believe the gifts have ended ~ I just didn't want to have anything to do with 'tongues') and participated in trepidation, somewhat?

And that my son said: "It's a gift of God, Mom, not a load of bricks"?

Where can you prove from Scripture that tongues have ended?

Where is there an insistence in Scripture of either 'subjectivity' or 'objectivity'? It seems to me that much in Scripture are accounts of subjectivity.

Whose word do we take in these situations?

I'm willing to believe your daughter in her situation. And I know what the situation is in mine.

Affectionately,

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2000

Actually, in making this statement:

I agree completely, and the Scriptures say:,

I was agreeing with AKelley's last sentence.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2000

Brother Ben:

I want to say Amen and Amen to your initial post. You are very much right in pointing out that we cannot believe something on the basis of a subjective feeling especially one experienced by someone other than ourselves. But we also cannot trust our subjective feelings even when we experience such things ourselves. You mention the falun Gong sect in Mainland China and asked about the press that it received. It has received sufficient press that most would recognize it when you mentioned it though I doubt if anyone other than Old China Hands would really understand just what it is. Because I practice Chinese Kungfu, and have done so for many years, I understand something about their thinking. They have taken something called Qigong which is practiced for various purposes from maintaining good health to emitting and using internal power in the martial arts and have used it to delude people, while in a meditative state, into believing that they are receiving peace and joy and a warm glowing healthly" feeling from their master who happens to live in New York, as they are meditating.

And you are very definitely correct concerning their sincerity and willingness to die for this master that they believe is communicating with them from a distance and giving them such wonderful subjective feelings and enlightenment. I have a book from this person explaining how to practice falun gong and the principles that they believe in. If you need it in your work I will be happy to send it to you.

I practice internal martial arts and have learned much from the Chinese about these things but most martial artist and numerous qigong masters do not agree with this use of qigong. I can tell everyone that the practice of such things is dangerous and that I have even seen things while meditating as a part of my martial training that if I were not a Christian and had objective knowledge of the scriptures I would could have been deceived into thinking that I had witnessed some incredible things within myself as Brother Kelley would put it. But I was spared such a fate by the word of God and also the Chinese people who trained me to not pay attention to those things because they are nothing more than your mind playing tricks on you while you are doing the deep breathing exercises during meditation. But those poor souls who do not know any better are so easily deceived by these unrealistic subjective feelings and powerful mental images into thinking that they are receiving their peace from a HIGHER MASTER. When in fact thousands of martial artist have had similar subjective feelings without attributing it to anything more than the flow of Qi or energy and the practical application of the philosophical concept of the Yin and Yang and the Tao de Qing etc. Never the less your point is an excellent one. On the basis by which so many claim subjective inner leading of the Holy Spirit and miraculous powers within themselves, many of the major religions of the world that are not Christian are able to convince the unlearned and ignorant to believe many hurtful and foolish things and so do those who make similar claims of the power of the Holy Spirit.

It would do all well to read the incident in the Old Testament History of the Young Prophet whom God sent a lion to kill because he believed a lie that was told by someone who claimed to have received a message from God that was contrary to the very words that God had given to that young prophet. (1 Kings 13) And believing that lie caused him to disobey God and lose his life. It is a lesson from the Old Testament concerning what God will do to those who believe a lie that leads them to disobey God. It is not a lesson of what happens to those who tell lies but rather to those who believe a lie.

Listen to how this young prophet was persuaded, by a subjective argument to disobey God by the old prophet who said, I am a prophet as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the Lord, saying, bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. BUT HE LIED UNTO HIM. (1 Kings 13:18) And the young prophet should have known that God would not tell him not to eat and drink in that place and then send an angel to someone and tell him to go eat in that place. But instead he accepted this word from the old prophet because of a false subjective claim that this old prophet had seen an angel who told him to do what God had plainly told the young prophet NOT to do! This sounds very much like those who today are trying to teach that we are saved by faith only because they have been lead by the Holy Spirit that such is the truth and have told us to believe it because the Holy Spirit revealed this to them. They use these subjective arguments from such alledged experiences to tell us something that is opposite to what God has plainly told us in his inspired word! We must warn the brethren to beware of believing a lie by this process of accepting something that is true on the basis of someones claims of subjective experiences, which they have had. This tactic of Satan is not a new one and it is just as effective today as it was in the days of the divided kingdom! We are most assuredly told of the dangers of believing a lie. (2 Thess. 2:10-12) and we would do well to heed that warning!

I believe that I have shown several good reasons to believe that tongues have ceased and when I have some time I will do so again in this forum. But I want to point out something that is being overlooked. No one has PROVEN that they continue to this day. None have made any arguments that show from the scriptures that they were intended to continue into our day. No one has been able to objectively demonstrate that they continue today. The only argument they continue to harp on is that the Bible does not say that they would cease.

Now let us suppose, for the sake of argument, that such were the truth, which it most certainly is not true, but suppose that it were. Would it logically follow that because the scriptures do not say that they would cease that they have continued? Would it explain to us why no one is able to demonstrate these gifts today? If they do not exist now then they did not continue to this day. And if it were true that the scriptures meant to teach us by its silence concerning their cessation (continuing here to assume that the scriptures have not said that they would cease which all know that I deny) that they would continue but we see that they cannot be demonstrated today then would one not be justified in concluding that the Bible is not true.

And if you add to this the fact that no one single passage of scripture has been given thus far that says they would continue into the 21st century the case for the continuance of such gifts has not been made, now has it?

Now as I have said, I have made a good case in another thread that these gifts would cease when their purpose was accomplished and the prophecy of Joel was fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem and the death of the apostles through whom these gifts were given and the death of those upon whom the apostles had laid their hands. I do not have time at the moment to go into a lengthy and detailed explanation of these matters again. But even if I were wrong, and I am certain that I am not wrong, it would not follow that the gifts continue today. That proposition would remain to be established by the scriptures and actual DEMONSTRATION of such powers actually being in existence today in most of Christians. Those gifts would have to be of the exact same nature as those that we read of in the New Testament.

Paul did not shun away from such demonstrations of Gods power to confirm the words that God had revealed to him to speak. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of wisdom, but in DEMONSTRATION of the Spirit and of POWER. That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men but in the POWER OF GOD (1 Cor. 2:4,5) Our faith to this day does not reside in the wisdom of men but in that word that was confirmed by those very deliberate demonstrations of Gods power that confirmed the word of God for us all.  Heb. 2:3,4 says, How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord and was CONFIRMED unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with SIGNS and WONDERS and with divers MIRACLES, and GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, according to his own will. So the purpose of these miracles was to confirm this word unto us and it was done by deliberate manifestations or demonstrations of Gods power. How is it that these things could have continued unto our day yet NO ONE has seen anything like it happening in our day and if there is anyone doing such things today they are keeping it hidden and are only doing it in some remote corner of the world when in the scriptures we are told that these things were not DONE IN A CORNER. They were open and visible for all to see and that manifestation was so often and so public that NONE could nor did any DENY it in the first century. In fact, if one took allof the miracles out of the book of Acts little would be left that made any sense at all to a reader! Jesus himself said, "many other miracles truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples which are not written in this book but these are written that you might believe and believing ye might have life through his name". (John 20:30,31). Now a question that is often not asked and seldom answered is why would God have these selected miracles to be written that we might believe if it was his intend and purpose that he would continue to do miracles as abundantly as he did in the New Testament throughout all ages to come? It just would not be necessary to have WRITTEN miracles when he knew that all of us would regularly see REAL actual miracles being done by God's power through out all ages and every Christian would know about it and experience them throughout all time!

It was not until the onset of the second century that men began to deny those miracles ever happened but the evidence was so powerful that their denials had little effect and those denials have little effect even to this day as far as the argument goes. But no one has seen those things performed since that time and none are observing those things today and none can even find ONE person that is willing to DEMONSTRATE these powers to the world, as Paul was willing to do.

As I said before this is not so much a matter of argumentation as it is a matter for DEMONSTRATION. The issue is not what CAN God do for God, we are all agreed, can do anything but tell a lie. (Titus 2:2). The issue is what IS God doing and what WILL he do? No one has yet shown that he IS demonstrating these powers among men today nor have they showed that it is within his WILL to show them today. These are the things that must be done before on can conclude that these miraculous gifts of the Spirit continue even to this day.

And then they must overcome the scriptures, which plainly state that these things would CEASE such as (1 Cor. 13:8; Eph. 4:11) No one has yet shown that these passages are not telling us that these powers were intended to cease when the prophecy of Joel was completely fulfilled and they had accomplished or completed their purpose and the partial revelations were no longer partial but complete. But even if they had done such a thing they would be a LONG way from proving that those gifts continue to this day, a VERY LONG WAY!

Just some thoughts for those who wish to reflect upon this matter in the light of Objective evidence instead of leaning upon subjective personal experiences about which we can NEVER know the truth.

Now, I want to be clear that I have shown that these gifts ceased in the thread entitled Do you allow emotion in the worship and anyone that is interested in what I had to say there are welcome to read it. When I have some time I will again, in a more organized way recite from the beginning my arguments which proves from the scriptures that these gifts were designed to cease when they accomplished their purpose in fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel and the promise of Christ (Mark 16:17-20) to reveal and confirm the very inspired word of God which is the source of all of our faith.

I thank you, Brother Ben, for your statements concerning these arguments from subjective feelings and experiences. It has certainly focused on the very crux of the matter, now hasnt it!

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2000

I do want to add the no one has ever shown that the gifts have cease in this entire forum! I want book chapter and verses!

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2000

Yes, AKelley.

When we go into a supermarket, we can pick and choose, and what we don't like, we can just pass up.

It seems to me that when we get into the Bible, we have to take all of it, not some specifically chosen (proof-text) verses which prove our point.

There is a differentiation between the 'tongues' each understood in his/her language as at Pentecost, [which were the ones Danny is referring to, for unbelievers] and the language spoken for God's ears only, which need an interpreter.

And I think denying them and wanting to fit the Scriptures to our traditions instead of our traditions to the Scriptures is immature.

I Corinthians 14:5: NASB

Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues UNLESS HE INTERPRETS, so that the church may receive edifying. [To me, this means that prophesying and tongues with interpretation are equally edifying.]

Now, I don't make use of these verses for myself, because I do not speak in tongues. But for those who do, there is ample support for their position.

To claim that they are preaching something which is not in Scripture is actually hurtful to them and denies what is there in Scripture. I see Godliness in people who have this gift, and they glorify God with it.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

Connie,

Please see what Scott Sheridan has just posted in the thread on "The True Purpose of Speaking in Tongues." I think it is extremely relevant to what you have just said, above.

BTW, I know a lot of Taoists, Buddhists, Hindus, Moslems, atheists, etc., who are nice people too. And they may find it "hurtful" to have someone say that they are lost without Christ. What should I do about them? Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons even think they believe in the same God we do, and they are nice people too. And they too have lots of "proof texts" to support their erroneous positions. Must I refuse to tell them that they are gravely in error because they too are nice people and it may hurt their feelings to hear that they are in error?

One of the dangers of the "tongues" movement -- besides the spiritual pride that others have commented on -- is the way so many of them quickly and uncritically accept anyone else who subjectively claims similar experiences. Most Pentecostals and Charismatics that I have discussed this with are quite happy to accept the "Toronto Blessing" movement. But I did some research into that movement awhile back because one of the sponsors of the Christian youth club at the high school my daughter attended was "into" this and was trying to promote those kinds of things in the club. And what I found out was scary!

I think that many Pentecostals and Charismatics probably are sincere believers in Christ, just mistaken about one point, because of what they have been taught. But some of the leaders of the "Toronto Blessing" movement ...!!! Some of them would probably qualify for John's description of an "antichrist" (I John 2:18-27).

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

Connie,

One more thing. Is it "denying what is in Scripture" to point out that someone's "proof text" doesn't mean what he would like it to mean?

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

Brethren:

Brother Kelley thinks that I left something out of my post and wanted to ADD the following statement to it:

I do want to add the no one has ever shown that the gifts have cease in this entire forum! I want book chapter and verses!

Well, Brother Kelley, lets just see if what you say is the truth. You have been given book, Chapter, and verse but you do not like what those verses say so you pretend that no one has shown verses, which indicate that gifts have ceased.

I can prove this by your own words in the do you allow emotion in the worship thread. After reading the book, chapter, and verse arguments that we presented you said the following:

We are at an empass. Your "seemingly" biblical evidence proves not your point.

Now this statement from you proves, with your own words that you believed that you had been given what you called seemingly Biblical evidence but you do not agree with the conclusions drawn from that evidence. Yet you come here and say no one has given book chapter and verse. Well just how did it seem to be Biblical without being a reference to book chapter and verse? Then you come in here and say that you want book, chapter, and verse as if you have not been given book chapter and verse. But the truth is that you have more than once been supplied with book, chapter and verse reasons for believing that miraculous gifts have ceased but you ignore it and do not answer it. Then you wait until you think everyone has forgotten the evidence had been presented and then you charge that no one has given you book Chapter and verses concerning this matter. Now, your above statement is just not the truth even by your own words.

Now if you would do what is right you would take up each of the book, chapter and verses that we have given to you and show that they do not teach what we seem to think that they are teaching. But you do not do that. Instead you just come claiming that no one has given you book, chapter and verse. Now anyone can compare the number of book, chapter, and verses that have been given to you to show that these miraculous gifts have ceased with the number of book, chapter and verses you have given to prove that they continue. And, by doing so, they would be able to see that you have not even attempted to show book, chapter and verses from Gods word that says they would continue into the 21st century and beyond! Not one single verse have you given us to prove such a thing but you BELIEVE IT. While at the same time ignore all of the verses that you have been given that teach the opposite to what you BELIEVE.

But to offer further evidence that we have more than once given you book, chapter and verse concerning this matter I will now quote some sections of the do you allow emotions in the worship thread wherein you were supplied with book, chapter, and verse concerning this matter.

Here is what I said to you on the do you allow emotion in the worship thread:

Yes I have made the charge that you have not seen miracles such as those presented in the New Testament and I repeat the charge now. You have not seen any such thing and you will not see such things because the word of God has clearly shown that those powers were given through the lying on of the apostles hands (Acts 8: 14-24; Acts 19:1- 6; Romans 1:11; 2 Tim. 1:6;). And the word of God shows us when they would cease to exist. (Joel 2:28-31; Daniel 9; 1 Cor 13:8-11; Eph. 4:11-17, 30.). But you could show that I have completely misunderstood these passages with one simple demonstration of your powers or the powers of anyone else.

And again I said to the brethren concerning this discussion between you and I:

Brethren, Notice the difference in the way in which those whom we know had miraculous powers spoke of that matter. Paul said, My speech and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in DEMONSTRATION OF THE SPIRIT and of POWER. That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men but in the POWER OF GOD. (1 Cor. 2:4). Here we see the difference between those, like the apostle Paul, who actually had miraculous gifts and those, like Brother Kelley, who merely claim in words that they have such gifts. Paul came speaking and preaching and establishing that God sent him by DEMONSTRATION of the Spirit and Power of God. So, If Brother Kelley had these miraculous gifts, he would not have to argue with us about the matter. He could preach as Paul did with DEMONSTRATION of the Spirit and Power of God. This would end this controversy if Brother Kelley would simply do as Paul did. Paul did not merely stand up and merely claim as Brother Kelley does to have miraculous powers from God. He demonstrated in such a way as to leave no doubt whatsoever among his hearers that God was working through him revealing His word. God worked with the early Christians confirming His word with signs following (Mark 16:17-20). So again we call upon Brother Kelley to show us the Panther! Do as Paul did. DEMONSTRATE the Spirit and power of God. We do wait for Brother Kelley to end this controversy BEFORE THE LORD COMES. But notice he tells us that this issue would not be resolved until the LORD COMES. Now why is that Brother Kelley? If you were to show us the panther by DEMONSTRATING you miraculous powers from God this issue could be resolved without waiting for the Lord to return. But the reason that we will have to wait for the Lord to return is because we will not see any miracles until Christ returns. That miracle is the only one that he has promised those of us who live after the death of the apostles and those upon whom the apostles laid their hands. No one else was given those powers as we have proven from the scriptures in the several posts that Brother Kelley wisely ignores.

And AGAIN you were given BOOK CHAPTER AND VERSES as follows:

The gifts were given for the purpose of revealing and confirming the very word of God upon which our faith is built. They accomplished their purpose and none have been given those gifts today. (Mark 16:15- 20; Heb.2:3,4; John 20:30,31; Acts 1:8; 2 Peter 1;3; Jude 3; 1 Cor. 13:8-11; Eph. 4:11;)

AND YET AGAIN you were given BOOK CHAPTER AND VERSES as follows:

How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation; which at first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was CONFIRMED unto us by them that heard him; God ALSO BEARING them WITNESS both with SIGNS AND WONDERS AND WITH DIVERS MIRACLES, and GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT ACCORDING TO HIS OWN WILL: These gifts of the Holy spirit were given according to Gods own will. It was his will to give them through the lying on of the apostles hands (Acts 8:14-24;Acts19: 6; Romans 1:11; 2 Tim. 1:6) and it was according to his will that they should cease to be given when the prophecy of Joel was completely fulfilled and when the apostles died and those upon whom they laid their hands died. (Joel 2:28-30; Acts 2:14; Eph. 4:11-17, 30; 1 Cor. 13:8-13)

I expressed the argument again to Brother John on the same thread:

The purpose of the outpouring on the day of Pentecost was to fulfill the prophecy of Joel and miraculously delivered the gospel and establishes His kingdom on this earth. (Joel 2:28; Mark 9:1; Acts 1:6- 8;Acts 2:17-21).

Others have also given you Book, Chapter and verse but you do not answer or explain why you reject those verses. Instead you simply scream at the top of your lungs that they do not prove our point. But you do not take the time to show us how it is that they do not prove our point. Brother Danny, Scot Sheridan, Benjamin Reese, and others have given you book, chapter and verse but you ignore them as well with your above statement.

You continue in this thread to ignore the fact that you have been given book, chapter and verse concerning this issue. So, Brother Kelley, you are completely incorrect in your statement that no one has given you book, chapter, and verse that shows that these miraculous gifts ceased. You have been given verses but you do not agree that they teach that gifts ceased. That is fine, then discuss those verses with us but do not simply pretend that no one has shown them to you.

Now, why do not you give us book, chapter and verse that teaches that these miraculous gifts were intended to continue for all time and DEMONSTRATE to us that they ACTUALLY exist today. You have not done this, now have you?

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

Lee, you prove nothing but hot air. Those who are on the "laying of hands side" have no valid standing. The argument of gifts dying with the apsotles, is ambiguous. There is a religious elitism on the non gifts came. Many in this forum claim the spiritual pride of those who are pro-tongues is the same with those in this forum. The spiritual elitism of this forum stinks with spiritual pride. Many puff themselves us and do not listen to the fact that they are making assumptions and must allow for the room of those who who do not feel the gifts have ceased.

Lee, Danny, Scott and others have stated that it is their way or the highway. Lee, my argument is just as valid as yours.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

Brother Kelley:

You said:

Lee, you prove nothing but hot air.

Then you finish your remarks with these words:

Lee, my argument is just as valid as yours.

Well, Brother Kelley, it seems that you have basically proven by your statements above that your arguments prove nothing but hot air. If not why not? Ha!

But I am convinced that the truth is that my arguments at least prove something and you have not yet made any arguments therefore it is not likely that you have even been able to prove hot air in fact you have proven NOTHING.

Then you say:

Those who are on the "laying of hands side" have no valid standing.

Now that is a fine assertion, Brother Kelley but how would you prove that it is true. For one who does not want just hot air this Assertion certainly seems to be blowing nothing but a warm breeze. What proof do you offer that those on the laying of hands side have no valid standing? You say it but you cannot prove it now can you?

Then you assert but do not even attempt to prove the following:

The argument of gifts dying with the apsotles, is ambiguous.

Why do you not at least TRY to offer SOME proof of your assertions? Do you think that mere hot air is sufficient? At least I did try to give evidence for my assertions. You did not like my efforts but I did at least try to prove that my argument was true. But you have not even tried! You expect us to believe this just because A. Kelley said so. Well, that will not work, especially for someone such as myself who is convinced that you are a deliberate liar.

Then you assert but do not prove the following:

There is a religious elitism on the non gifts came. Many in this forum claim the spiritual pride of those who are pro-tongues is the same with those in this forum.

Where is the proof, Brother Kelley?

Then you assert but do not prove the following:

 The spiritual elitism of this forum stinks with spiritual pride.

Now this is like the skunk coming into Vets office complaining that the place stinks! Ha! Only your arrogance and hurt spiritual pride could have motivated you to even say such a thing! Ha!

Then you say:

Many puff themselves us and do not listen to the fact that they are making assumptions and must allow for the room of those who do not feel the gifts have ceased.

Brother Kelley, if you would simply attempt to PROVE anything that you say we might be tempted to hear you but so long as you do nothing more than assert things without even attempting to prove them you cannot expect anyone to "listen to you. We cannot accept that we are making assumptions just because A. Kelley says it is so, now can we? You cannot prove anything that you say and have not even tried to do so yet WE ARE MAKING ASSUMPTIONS! Ha! No one but an idiot could believe such nonsense!

Then you tell another DELIBERATE LIE. And I must tell you that this lying that you do in this forum is getting OLD. But we will be patient but not tolerant of such things. You have lied to us by saying the following: Lee, Danny, Scott and others have stated that it is their way or the highway.

Now why dont you show me where I have ever said any such thing! How about just copying my exact words where I said anything remotely like that to you or anyone else in this forum. I have never asked anyone to leave because they do not see it my way. I have argued with them strongly and often but I have never asked anyone to hit the highway. I DARE YOU TO FIND AND PASTE MY WORDS THAT CAUSED YOU TO CLAIM that I have STATED it is my way or the highway. You are definitely telling a DELIBERATE LIE again. I will add this to your other lies and keep them ever before you until you repent.

Now, I do not believe that Brother Danny or Brother Scott has EVER said any such thing to you. Now you wonder why I call you a DELIBERATE LIAR? It is simply because you tell deliberate lies like this one! You say things that you know are not the truth. That is what LIARS do Brother Kelley.

No where did I STATE it is my way or the highway to you or anyone else in this forum. In fact I never even remotely implied such a thing. I challenge you to prove that I stated any such thing or repent for having told a deliberate lie!

Now I would like to see someone attempt to get you out of this clearly obvious and deliberate lie. No one can say that you just did not say what you meant. None can say that you simply mistyped these words and none can say that you simply had us mistaken for someone else. I would like to see you prove that you have not intentionally lied to us AGAIN in this matter. For these words are not even in the category of an argument they are simply a deliberate lie. Now if you cannot show where we have stated that it is our way or the highway then you will not be able to escape the fact that you have told us yet another lie. The evidence that you are a deliberate liar is overwhelming and conclusive! But I am the only one in this forum that is willing to tell you the truth about your extreme character deficiency. You are a liar and there is just no cure for you. Yet you claim to be lead by the Holy Spirit. You are without doubt a disgrace to the cause of Christ and you should hang your head in shame for deliberately lying. We have never said it is our way or the highway and you knew it when you wrote those words, didnt you? You have the gall to ask me to repent of having called you a liar and continue to tell deliberate lies. You are a disgrace to all who love truth and right and should cast yourself before God in tears and repent for God abhors a lying tongue. You are not speaking in tongues as the spirit gives you utterance you are spouting out lies as your father the Devil is moving you with pride and spiritual arrogance.

By now you know that I do not care how many of my brethren in this forum detest my calling you a liar. I detest being lied to. You have lied to the people of this forum enough and it is now time for them to see you as you are. You are not a man being moved by the spirit of God but rather one who lies with his lips in honor of his father the devil who is the first liar and the father thereof! All I can say is repent before you lose your soul. You whited wall! You should cast yourself down before God in shame and regret! Christ died for you and you lie in his name as if he were nothing. How can you trod underfoot the Son of God and count the blood of the covenant an unworthy thing and do such despite unto the Spirit of Grace! How can you tell lies in the name of Christ our Lord? How can you disobey so easily his words, which instruct us, Lie not to one another, Brethren? I pray that God will have mercy on you.

You will face God in the judgement for these lies that you have told in this forum. You surely will! And the scriptures say, All liars shall have their part in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone. May God have mercy upon you?

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

Danny, are you a Top Gun fan? It would be a good movie without the cursing and premartial sex.

Sorry Danny or including you and Scott in my venting on Lee. Actually Scott is pretty understanding. Oh BTW- Danny I do appreciate you. From time to time we agree on something and you do compliment me for it.Thanks

Lee, you still have not answered my question. When can we go to the snake handling church together. I will let you hold the copperhead if I get the rattler. Maybe we can drink arsenic filled grape juice I hear it gives quite a rush! Also, if you want to meet at a grave yard let us visit my six-great uncle Daniel Boone. We can raise him from the dead and have a "tombstone" pizza- Maybe we can get him how to kill a "bar" (he carved that in a tree once he meant bear). Sounds like fun?

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

Oh, Lee, I know and you know that you never said those exact words. You do not have to say them- your words betray your meaning. Anyone who does not agree with you is either a false teacher or a liar.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

Brother Kelley:

You said:

Lee, Danny, Scott and others have stated that it is their way or the highway.

I challenged you to copy and paste the exact words where I STATED any such thing. Then you prove that you knew when you wrote your above statement that I never STATED any such thing with these words:

Oh, Lee, I know and you know that you never said those exact words. You do not have to say them- your words betray your meaning. Anyone who does not agree with you is either a false teacher or a liar.

So I guess now I must ask you to copy and paste the words which I have sated anywhere in this forum that betrays the meaning that it is my way or the high way. Which of my words have you read that betrayed such a meaning to you? Let us read them.

But that would not save you from your now admittedly deliberate lie wherein you said that I STATED such a thing. You did not say that I had betrayed such an idea. You said that I STATED it. NOW that was a lie, wasnt it?

Now with your own words you admit to having lied! You knew that I did not STATE that it is my way or the highway and yet you said that I HAVE STATED that is was my way or the high way. This is proof that you deliberately lied. You knew that I had never STATED any such thing but you deliberately said that I did in fact STATE such a thing when you knew all along that it was not the truth. More evidence of a deliberate lie could not be given and you have given it yourself in your own words.

You did not say that I implied or left the impression that it was my way or the highway. You said that I had STATED that it was my way or the highway. But you knew when you made that remark that I had, in fact, never STATED any such thing. But knowing that did not keep you from lying now did it? You Knew that what you were writing was not true but you wrote it anyway! Now that is lying, brother Kelley and you know and I know it and so does God. With this post you admit that you have lied and yet you will not repent of it. You are in fact a traitor to the cause of Christ because you tell deliberate lies in the name of Christ!

When you say, anyone that does not agree with you is either a false teacher or a liar you state another untruth. In fact, I do not consider ANYONE who disagrees with me to be false teachers simply because they disagree with me. I consider them false teachers because they disagree with the doctrine of Christ as taught in the New Testament.

Just as I have not called you a liar for disagreeing with me. You and I have disagreed often without my calling you a liar. I have called you a liar simply because you have told lies deliberately and I have proven that you have done so. You, Brother Kelley, are a liar because you have lied and it has been proven beyond doubt that you have deliberately lied to the people who read this forum. I have not called you a liar simply because you disagree with me. You are a liar because you have without question or doubt told lies. Just witness this case before us at present. You knew that I had NEVER stated in this forum that it is my way or the highway yet you said to all of us:

 Lee, Danny, Scott and others have stated that it is their way or the highway.

Now, is that statement by you the truth? Has Danny STATED that it is his way or the high way? No they did not and you admit it in your apology to them as follows:

Sorry Danny or including you and Scott in my venting on Lee. Actually Scott is pretty understanding. Oh BTW- Danny I do appreciate you. From time to time we agree on something and you do compliment me for it.Thanks

SO if they never stated such a thing did you tell the truth when you accused them of having made such a statement? The answer to that is obvious to anyone with a brain. No you deliberately lied to us about that now didnt you?

Then you also said that I had made such a statement. But is it true that I have ever STATED that it is my way or the highway? No, it is not the truth and you admit it with your following words:

Oh, Lee, I know and you know that you never said those exact words.

Then why did you lie and tell the people of this forum that I had stated those words?

In fact, you cannot show anywhere in this forum where I have even remotely implied with my words that it is my way or the high way! So you have lied. You lied by claiming that Brothers Danny and Scott had STATED that it was their way or the highway when, according to your apology, you knew all along that they had NEVER done any such thing and that you had only included them in your venting on Lee. Then you lied when you claimed that I also had stated such a thing and you admit as much yourself by stating that you knew that I had never said those words.

Now I know you would like to try to escape from this lie by claiming that I have not stated such a thing but that I have implied it or left the impression that such is how I feel. But I will simply ask you to copy and paste my exact words, which left such an impression or even remotely implied that it is my way or the high way. This you cannot do. But even if you did it would not save you from the fact that you claimed that I had actually STATED such a thing, which is a deliberate lie, and you knew when you said it that it was a lie.

Now where are those who cannot see that you are guilty of this deliberate lie that you have ADMITTEDLY told in this forum?

The fact is Brother Kelley that you are a liar and there is just no way that anyone can save you from that fact unless you repent and Christ our Lord forgives you.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, for man's anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires. (James 1:19-20)

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

John,

I agree with you 100%!!!

We should all be quick to listen and think before we speak! The key in the verses you quote concerning anger is...Man's Anger.

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

Since you liked that, here's another one:

A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger. (Proverbs 15:1)

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

That is a good one too!!! Thanks for the reminder.

-- Anonymous, August 26, 2000

Lee you still have not aswered my question.

-- Anonymous, August 26, 2000

AKelley,

You make a blanket statement here that is just NOT TRUE! "Anyone who does not agree with you is either a false teacher or a liar."

I disagree with Lee on the issue of instruments, so does Danny, Jack and I am sure there are others. He has not called us false teachers or said we are liars. Therefore, his reasons for saying that must stem from something else.

-- Anonymous, August 26, 2000

D. Lee....

I think there may be at least one more category: False Teacher, Liar, and One Who is Just Deceived. Now, I'm not quite sure how to tell the difference between a False Teacher and One Who is Just Deceived. I've been upbraided by others (not on this forum) at times for calling those who believe (and profess) "salvation by faith only" False Teachers.... Yet, if the doctrine is False and someone is Teaching it... it seems they could be called a False Teacher. Since, I believe, Lee sees musical instruments used in worship as False doctrine... and there are those here that Teach that it is OK... I would think they would be labeled False Teachers rather than One Who is Just Deceived?

Anybody care to help me out and explain the difference between False Teacher and One Who is Just Deceived? Are we consistent in the use of the term False Teacher?

-- Anonymous, August 26, 2000

Brother Kelley:

You have insisted upon an answer to a question that I never believe that you were serious in asking as follows:

Lee you still have not aswered my question.

Brother Kelley, I suppose that you are referring to the following question that you asked me:

Lee, you still have not answered my question. When can we go to the snake handling church together. I will let you hold the copperhead if I get the rattler. Maybe we can drink arsenic filled grape juice I hear it gives quite a rush! Also, if you want to meet at a grave yard let us visit my six-great uncle Daniel Boone. We can raise him from the dead and have a "tombstone" pizza- Maybe we can get him how to kill a "bar" (he carved that in a tree once he meant bear). Sounds like fun?

Now I ignored this question primarily because it appears that you are not serious in asking it. It seems to be nothing but more ignorant nonsense or at best a playful joking question. But I will answer you on the assumption that you are serious since you continue to insist that I give you an answer.

You told us that you did not have the ability to raise the dead now, now didnt you? Then you come in here and, if you are seriously asking this question, tell us that we will go to the grave- yard and raise your relative Daniel Boone from the dead. So do tell me Brother Kelley, are you seriously telling us that God has given you the power to raise your distant relative Daniel Boone from the dead? Are you seriously proposing to do just that in the presence of many witnesses? If you are then I whole- heartedly accept that challenge and will meet you at the gravesite of Daniel Boone, if you will tell me where he is buried, and I will bring the media and we will document this miracle, which you (seriously?) agree to do.

If you raise Mr. Boone from the dead by the power of God there will be no need to handle any snakes, or go to a hospital to heal the sick for I will be totally convinced by that miracle that such miracles continue in the Name of Christ into our own 21st century. If you do not raise ole Daniel Boone will you admit that miracles such as those found in the New Testament do not continue into this day?

SO, are you serious? Shall we all plan to attend this wonderful event of the raising of Daniel Boone from the dead? If so let me know the date, time and place and I will be there with the media so that the world can see the distant relative of Daniel Boone raise his 6th uncle from the dead! I just cannot wait to see it happen! Ha!

Now watch this folks. I doubt if Brother Kelley will give us a date, time and place for the world to come and watch him raise Daniel Boone from the dead. Notice also that if he seriously thinks that he has these powers, why did he tell us that he did not have them? Was he lying to us again? Or is this going to be another one of those terrible things that he wishes he had not said? Ha! This nonsense is absurd!

But I also want to ask. What was wrong with Brother Dannys suggestion that we raise A. Campbell Form the dead. I am sure he would be more helpful than your distant relative Daniel Boone. My recommendation would be that we arrange for the Apostle Paul to return for he would surely straighten out those who have taken some of the things that he wrote and wrested them to their own destruction.

It appears that you merely want to let us know in some way that you are related to Daniel Boone. Well, I am glad to know that for I suppose that we all respect Daniel Boone and the sacrifice that he made for this country in the fight for the independence of Texas in the War against Mexico. I suppose that we can now respect Brother Kelley a little bit more knowing that he is a relative of the great Daniel Boone. All of Daniel Boones relatives deserve respect for the sake of Daniel Boone, a veteran of one of our foreign wars wherein he gave his life for this country, if for no other reason. But I would respect Brother Kelley more if he could learn to tell the truth.

But I am certainly happy to know some of Daniel Boones relatives! So you have my respect for your uncles sake, Brother Kelley. And if you learn to tell the truth you will gain respect from me as a Brother in Christ. Until them I will feel nothing but contempt for the deliberate lies that you have without question told in this forum.

I can assure every one that Brother Kelleys promise to raise Daniel Boone from the dead will turn out to be just a joke but if he was serious about that promise then it will turn out instead to be just another one of his DELIBERATE LIES. So which one was it Brother Kelley? Was it a mere joke or a deliberate lie? Now you answer that question.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2000

Danny,

You are right that Lee could probably better answer the question of the difference between a False Teacher and One Who is Just Deceived concerning the issue of musical instruments in the church. There is, however, a general side to the question as well. In other words, what is the difference regarding other issues as well?

Deer Hunting.... the country is overrun with deer this year. They are issuing two antlerless permits with every license. As far as nice bucks go... we found a couple of Really Nice sheds... so, hopefully, he is still around.... :-) We are having logging done this fall... I'm not sure how it will change their runways.... It will be an interesting and fun year, I'm sure!

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2000

Benjamin,

In response to your original post on this thread,

I can understand your concern abotu subjectiveness and false religions. But on the ohter hand, just because something is 'subjectively verifiable' doesn't prove that it is false. There are many aspects of Christianity that are subjective.

The author of Hebrews wrote of believers consciences being cleansed. If my conscience is cleansed, how can I prove that to an unbeliever who has not had the same experience. Isn't that subjective?

Israel heard Moses talk and saw the plagues and the signs, but not every prophet came with such dramatic signs. There were many cases in the Old Testament where a prohpet would prophesy, and others would be responsible for what he said. But how could they know? Wasn't the prophet's experience subjective? How did David really know the prophet was prophesying when he said it was not for him to build the temple? How could Israel really know that Jeremiah was really hearing from God? It took a long time for his prophecies of captivity to take place.

In the New Testament we see that Christ did miracles, was raised from the dead, and showed Himself to many people. Many of these people served as witnesses of the resurrection and told others about it. Later, some of their writings were recorded. This is somewhat objective. Of course, if an atheist wants to physically see proof of such things, and does not accept testimony as evidence, he can reject the gospel. People are saved not merely because of intellectually being convinced of the gospel. The Holy Spirit works on their hearts to bring them to faith. No man can come to Christ except the Father draw Him. There is a subjective, internal element to coming to faith.

While there are miracles that can be seen in the church we see in the Bible at times, there are also gifts that have a subjective element. Agabus stood up and prophesied a famine. How could be the believers know that this would come to pass? Wasn't there something subjective going on? How did they know Agabus really had heard God?

If someone heard false prophesying, he might be inclined to reject them all. The Bible warns against this attitude- Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things. Hold to that which is good.- Paul gave the Thesalonians these instructions. Subjective prophesyings were probably quite easy to dismiss.

While Paul believed in visions, and probably saw many of them, he also warned against believe false manifestations.

Paul spoke in tongues, and so did the Corinthians. In spite of the subjective elements of tongues and prophecy, Paul encouraged these gifts (in the proper context) and encouraged believers to seek the better gifts [see instructions about prophecy.]

Just think how subjective discernment of spirits must have been. How could someone distinguish between Spirits?

It is wrong and unscriptural to receive every teaching based on subjective claims. It is also wrong and unscriptural to reject everything that has a subjective element to it. (Despise not prophesyings- for example.) God would work, and somehow He held His people responsible at times to recognize that. We are to follow Him, and if we trust in Him with all our heart, lean not to our own understanding, and acknowledge Him in all our ways, He will direct our paths.

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2000

E. Lee wrote,

You wrote,

>>>No one has PROVEN that they continue to this day. None have made any arguments that show from the scriptures that they were intended to continue into our day. No one has been able to objectively demonstrate that they continue today.<<<

This is a discussion group. How do you expect sommeone to demonstrate the gift on the 'net? If you were really interested, you could travel around the churches in your own area and look for people with the gift.

One problem is that in the I Corinthians situation, Paul wrote concerning the one who speaks in tongues 'no one understands him.' YOu can't expect the gifts of the Spirit just to work the way you want them to. They are not under your control. You may want to pick a speaker of a foreign language and ask someone to supernaturally speak in that person's language, but there is no indication from Scripture that the saints chose what language they were to speak in. Even on Pentecost when saints spoke in tongues, there is no indication that they chose the language they were speaking in. They may well have no even known what htey were saying. In Corinth, no one undersztood the tongue unless they were interpreted.

So in the Biblical account in Corinth, what was said in tongues was unverifiable, without the gift of interpretation. Even that has an aspect of subjectivity. Even if you had a time machine and went back in time to Corinth, you shouldn't be able to expect to verify the gifts using the same standard that you want to verify gifts today.

>> The only argument they continue to harp on is that the Bible does not say that they would cease<<<

This is the key argument. Especially since there are plenty of people speaking in tongues and prophesying these days.

If the Bible teaches that God gave out these gifts, and doesn't teach that they cease, then you should believe that God may choose to give them out. Even if you never saw the gift, you should still be open to the possibility. You shouldn't be like Thomas who had to see to believe, in spite of hearing Jesus prophecies beforehand and hearing firsthand testimonies.

The Bible should be enough for you. You shouldn't have to have experiences before you believe the gifts in the Bible.

If Philip preached the gospel and a village as a whole received it, should I argue that God will not- in this day and time- bring a whole village to Christ? No, I believe god could do that. I have heard of such things occuring, but I've never seen it with my own eyes. Wouldn't it be foolish for me to demand to see a village come to Christ before I believed God could do such things? No, I just look in the Bible, and see that that was the sort of thing that God did, and believe that God might chose to do it today. Why are miracles different? Why is it so hard to believe God might do a miracle without actually seeing one? Is it because you are effected by the skepticism of the age, and by people who do not believe int ehb supernatural.

Your argument about 'the perfect' depends on a theological assumption. that is, 'mad-libbing' an idea to substitute for 'the perfect' in I Corinthians 13. This passage also says nothing about gifts like healing or miracles like raising the dead ceasing.

Even if you were write that the Joel prophecy mentioned in Acts were completely fulfilled in 70AD, it doesn't logically follow that God wouldn't give gifts like prophecy, healing, or tongues, after that prophecy was fulfilled, in accordance with I Corinthains 12. Besides,t he Joel prophecy is about 'the last days.' We are still in the last days.

Your arguments that miracles were ONLY to confirm the word of God are not Biblical. Paul lists miracles among gifts for the edification of the body. So theys till have a role to play in the body.

Besides, unbelievers seeing miracles still has an effect these days.

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2000

Benjamin,

A response to something you posted a while back. I am on a list that has a number of Pentecostals who do not endorse the Toronto thing. I have never been there. I've met people who went there when it first started to get well-known. They said they loved the Lord more after they were there. I've heard some things about it. It sounds like Cane Ridge a little bit.

I don't endorse something just because it is labeled 'Charismatic.' We are dealing with two issues here: what the Bible teaches abotu gifts, and what some people call gifts of the Spirit. Excesses among Charismatics is not an argument for the cessation of the gifts. There were excesses in Corinth, and there were also false prophets and false gifts in the first century. This was not a legitimate reason for early beleivers not to believe in the true operation of hte gifts.

-- Anonymous, August 28, 2000

E. Lee Saffold wrote: >>The gifts were given for the purpose of revealing and confirming the very word of God upon which our faith is built. They accomplished their purpose and none have been given those gifts today. (Mark 16:15- 20; Heb.2:3,4; John 20:30,31; Acts 1:8; 2 Peter 1;3; Jude 3; 1 Cor. 13:8-11; Eph. 4:11;) <<<

None of these verses show that the gifts are not in operation to day. You should show verses that supportyour point, not just show verses. In fact, Ephesians 4 tells us that prohpets are given till we come to a perfect man, to the full measure of the stature of Christ. So you have verses in your list that contradict your premise.

>>>AND YET AGAIN you were given BOOK CHAPTER AND VERSES as follows:

>>How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation; which at first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was CONFIRMED unto us by them that heard him; God ALSO BEARING them WITNESS both with SIGNS AND WONDERS AND WITH DIVERS MIRACLES, and GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT ACCORDING TO HIS OWN WILL:<<<

A very good and true passage of scripture. If you will notice, this verse does not say that the gifts would cease. It does show that the word was confirmed through sings, wonders, and gifts of the Spirit. But this passage does not say that confirming the word is the ONLY purpose of the gifts. You still have to deal with the fact that gifts edified the body,a nd were to be ministered one to another.

If we look at Scripture, we see that miracles accompanied the preaching of the word when it went forth among the Jews. When it first was preached among the Samaritans by Philip, it was accompanied by sigsns and wonders. When it was first preached in various cities, it was accompanied by signs and wonders. Should we be surprised when we hear accounts of God doint miracles ont he frontiers of the gospel these days? That is in line with the way God operated in scripture.

>> These gifts of the Holy spirit were given according to Gods own will. It was his will to give them through the lying on of the apostles hands (Acts 8:14-24;Acts19: 6; Romans 1:11; 2 Tim. 1:6) and <<

It was His will to give gifts with the laying on of hands of the apolstes. it was also His will to give them without the laying on of hands of the apostles. He gave a gift with the laying on of hands of elders on one occasion, and I Corinthains 14:13 teaches to pray for gifts.

>>it was according to his will that they should cease to be given when the prophecy of Joel was completely fulfilled and when the apostles died and those upon whom they laid their hands died. (Joel 2:28-30; Acts 2:14; Eph. 4:11-17, 30; 1 Cor. 13:8-13)

Where do these verses say that the gifts should cease whenthe paosltes died, and those on whom they laid there hands died. It is not enough to give verse references. You must give verse references that prove your point.

-- Anonymous, August 28, 2000

Link I agree with you whole heartedly. It is time that we give up the gifts died with the apostle's argument. Plus, where do we find in the NT that the gifts where only for the apostles? The gifts where for the church. THus the church continued on witht hem untill Christ will come back. Plus, James 5:14 does not say anything about apostles but elders- it is a promise for the church.

Lee, of course it was in humor that I made such commits. And you responded like I thought you would. Lee, I have done nothing wrong to you. But, for the sake of peace, I will apologize for anything that I said that offened you. But, as for my doctrine that I will not apologize for. Yes, I do believe the gifts exist today! Yes, I believe in Heb. 13:8 that says, "Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and forever."- thus I relate that to the existance of the gifts. I for sure believe that tongues, prophecy, healings etc. do and can happen today. Jesus will always be the same.

Lee, you are quoted in calling me pathetic, a traitor to the cause of Christ, a false teacher, a deceiver and a liar. Although I say I am not, you say yes I am. You know, it hurts when a so called "brother in Christ" calls a person those names. It bothers me that you speak of those things about me, especially when they are not true.

I can bet that if Danny, Scott, or Ben where to turn around and believe in the existance of the gifts, I bet you would resort to the same tatics that you have used on me.

-- Anonymous, August 28, 2000

Brother Link quoted my arguments and wrote:

E. Lee wrote, You wrote, >>>No one has PROVEN that they continue to this day. None have made any arguments that show from the scriptures that they were intended to continue into our day. No one has been able to objectively demonstrate that they continue today.<<< This is a discussion group. How do you expect someone to demonstrate the gift on the 'net?

I explained this to everyone several times. No one has asked that anyone demonstrate these tongues on the net. I have challenged both you and Brother Kelley to demonstrate them in Atlanta and Brother Kelley and I have exchanged challenges with each other about demonstrating them in KC MO. I promised to bring the media to provide visual and voice documentation of these so-called miraculous gifts. Yes this is a discussion group. And if you intend to make an argument from your personal experiences on the net you should be prepared to demonstrate your powers to the people who read this forum. Even if it means that they must be told to go see the news story with visual documentation or if anyone is willing to be present at such a demonstration arranged on this forum they should be allowed that opportunity. Otherwise, making an argument from experiences that cannot be verified in this medium as true is ridiculous and none should be expected to believe you on this basis.

Then he says:

If you were really interested, you could travel around the churches in your own area and look for people with the gift.

Well, I can assure Brother link that I have been there and done that and you know what? I have not found one single person who has these gifts that were given in the New Testament, not one single person. I have attended several Pentecostal churches and none have ever shown any miracles nor have they ever spoken tongues. I have never seen cloven tongues like as of fire sitting upon any one. I have never witnessed a single person heal of any sickness. I have seen them come in sick and leave just as sick as when they came in but claiming all along that they had been healed! But their shaking frail bodies bore the indelible mark of their disease. Some of these later died of the very disease that they claimed God had saved them from. So naturally when you claimed to have healing powers and Brother Kelley claimed to have experienced the gift of tongues, even though he later denied having made such a claim. And after Brother Kelley told his little story about two men who had never seen a panther and one-day actually saw one. I realized that this subject is not so much one of argumentation as it is of DEMONSTRATION so I asked for a demonstration. Even invited anyone to come to Atlanta and raise the dead. I even offered to go to the hospital with those that claimed healing powers and document a miracle actually taking place. But of course, as I predicted, neither you nor Brother Kelley, nor any one else in the entire world has come forward to do such a thing. So we see that these men are all talk. They do not have these powers or they could have long ago silenced me on this issue. But they still talk but cannot act. Very unlike Paul who was more than willing to DEMONSTRATE these powers he received from God (1 Cor. 2:4).

Then Brother Link tells us:

One problem is that in the I Corinthians situation, Paul wrote concerning the one who speaks in tongues 'no one understands him.' YOu can't expect the gifts of the Spirit just to work the way you want them to. They are not under your control. You may want to pick a speaker of a foreign language and ask someone to supernaturally speak in that person's language, but there is no indication from Scripture that the saints chose what language they were to speak in. Even on Pentecost when saints spoke in tongues, there is no indication that they chose the language they were speaking in. They may well have no even known what htey were saying. In Corinth, no one undersztood the tongue unless they were interpreted.

This is indeed a problem for those who do not have either the gift of tongues or the gift of interpretation of tongues. God, it seems, deliberately gave the gift of tongues to one person and the gift of interpretation to another but never both gifts to the same person. This way none could by deliberate fraud pretend to be speaking in tongues or as Brother Kelley likes to say experience the gift of tongues.

' YOu can't expect the gifts of the Spirit just to work the way you want them to. They are not under your control.

Now we do not know if this is the truth for Brother Link offers no proof that it is true. How would he know since he does not have any of these gifts of the Spirit? What passage of Scripture does he use to tell us that concerning these gifts that they are not under your control when the scriptures tell us the opposite with these words:

The Spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets (1 Cor. 14:32).

But Brother link thinks that the gift was verifiable without the gift of interpretation.

So in the Biblical account in Corinth, what was said in tongues was unverifiable, without the gift of interpretation. Even that has an aspect of subjectivity.

I do not know if that is true. It could be for if one reads Acts 2 he can see that there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire and it sat upon each of them. Now I suppose that if something like that happened one could verify that a miraculous event had occurred. But we also read in acts 2:7,8, Are not all these that speak Galileans? How then hear we every man in our OWN TONGUE WHEREIN WE WERE BORN? Certainly seems that they were speaking more than one language now doesnt it? All one needs to do are read verse 5 that tells us that there were Jews there from every nation under heaven. No notice that it says EVERY NATION UNDER HEAVEN. But his assertion that it is a subjective verification he wants us to believe without evidence! How would he prove a subjective verification? If it was subjective he could not see it and neither could anyone else. So how then does he know that such is true? So we are not sure that he is correct in his assumption that tongues were verifiable without the gift of interpretation but we are certain that even if this were true they were not verified subjectively. However we do want to notice just here how dependent are those who do not have the gift of tongues upon subjectivity to establish their claims! Ha! They are coming close to admitting that their claims cannot be OBGECTIVELY verified, now art they?

Then Brother Link wishes for a time machine since he cannot verify that these things exist in our time he wants to go back to the time when they did exist and says:

Even if you had a time machine and went back in time to Corinth, you shouldn't be able to expect to verify the gifts using the same standard that you want to verify gifts today.

Now I simply must ask, why not? Are we to believe this just because Brother Link says it is so? Believe me that we would in those times be able to see with our own eyes these wonderful things and we would be able to hear GALILEANS speaking in our own language wherein we were born in Corinth just as well as on the day of Pentecost in Jerusalem. But we have no such time machine and if these gifts actually existed and were as prevalent in the church today as they were then, as Brother Link would like to have us believe we would not need such a time machine. We could examine these gifts every Sunday morning and at the local hospitals and various events wherein these gifts were actually being exercised and if Link were like the apostle Paul he would have no fear of a demonstration of these gifts.

Then he tell us:

>> The only argument they continue to harp on is that the Bible does not say that they would cease<<< This is the key argument. Especially since there are plenty of people speaking in tongues and prophesying these days.

Now this is not the only key argument and Brother Link knows it. He tells us that this is especially true since plenty of people are speaking in tongues and prophesying these days. But do notice brethren that he dose not PROVE to us that there are plenty of people speaking in tongues and prophesying today. He expects us to believe that simply because Brother Link says it is so. We have never seen anyone speaking in tongues or prophesying as they did in the New Testament. And brother Link admits that he cannot verify such a thing on the net because this is a discussion forum and such things, as this cannot be verified here. Then he complains that when I seek to verify such things by a demonstration outside of this forum but he continues to insist that we just believe him without any evidence that what he says is true. Now I do not doubt that he may have deluded himself into believing such things but that is no reason that the rest of us should follow him.

If the Bible teaches that God gave out these gifts, and doesn't teach that they cease, then you should believe that God may choose to give them out. Even if you never saw the gift, you should still be open to the possibility.

Now anyone who is able to reason knows that it does not logically follow that because God gave out these gifts to people in the first century that he intended to give them out to all Christians (or even some Christians) in every century in the future. Now I believe with all of my heart that God may chose to do what ever he wants to do in any century including giving out miraculous gifts. But that is far from believing that he has done so or that he has promised to do so in his eternal word. The only way that we know Gods will is through his revealed, confirmed, and inspired word. And he has not promised, nor has he told us in his inspired word that he will give these gifts to anyone in any century other than the first century.

In the beginning God made man from the dust of the ground. He CAN do it again today if he so chooses. But he has never done it since creation and has no where promised to do it again. And we have no evidence that he has or is doing such today. The same is true with miraculous gifts of the Spirit. God did give them out through the lying on of the apostles hands in the first century. And so far as we know he has not done so since that time and he has not promised to do it today and there is no evidence that he has done such a thing today. Therefore, we have no reason to believe or expect these things to be among us today.

Then he says:

You shouldn't be like Thomas who had to see to believe, in spite of hearing Jesus prophecies beforehand and hearing firsthand testimonies. The Bible should be enough for you. You shouldn't have to have experiences before you believe the gifts in the Bible.

Now I do not see much wrong with being like Thomas. Neither did Christ who took the time to show him his hands and his feet and allowed him to thrust his hands into his side at which time our good Brother Thomas fell down and said, My Lord and My God. The Bible is enough for me and I believe in every Gift and miracle of the Bible. It is the false and fraudulent claim of gifts and miracles by the Pentecostals of our day that I do not believe. They have not shown from the scriptures any prophesies that indicate that we should expect miracles today. Therefore while Thomas had some reason to believe Christ was risen we have absolutely NO EVIDENCE from any prophecies that we should expect to witness miraculous gifts of the spirit today. Then he says that Thomas should have believed first hand testimonies. Jesus did not tell him any such thing. He did in fact believe his own experience and not only did the Lord provide that for him he did not condemn him for it. But also notice that the first hand testimonies given in the New Testament were verifiable by anyone who wanted to question them. Not only have I heard first hand testimony I have also gone to witness some of these things that they were testifying about and found that this first hand testimony was FRAUDULENT. I even found that Brother Kelleys so-called first hand testimony was a deliberate lie in this forum. I will not trust anyone who deliberately lies to me about some personal experience. So it is the word of God that we have faith in and any testimony given by any man that conflicts with the teaching of Gods word is not acceptable. We are told to let God be true and every man a liar. In these things I trust the word of God and it does not tell us anywhere to expect miraculous gifts of the Spirit today.

Then he gives this example: If Philip preached the gospel and a village as a whole received it, should I argue that God will not- in this day and time- bring a whole village to Christ? No, I believe god could do that. I have heard of such things occurring, but I've never seen it with my own eyes. Wouldn't it be foolish for me to demand to see a village come to Christ before I believed God could do such things? No, I just look in the Bible, and see that that was the sort of thing that God did, and believe that God might chose to do it today. Why are miracles different? Why is it so hard to believe God might do a miracle without actually seeing one? Is it because you are effected by the skepticism of the age, and by people who do not believe int ehb supernatural. Now Brother Link wants to try and put me in the category of a complete infidel or agnostic or unbeliever in miracles with these words:

Is it because you are effected by the skepticism of the age, and by people who do not believe int ehb supernatural.

Now I have demonstrated in this forum that I believe very much in miracles. I believe every miracle of the Bible and I believe in the resurrection of Christ and the creation of the world in six literal 24-hour days. I believe in the miracle of the flood and the miracles in the book of Acts. I believe that them because they are in the very word of God and these miracles have been verified beyond doubt to those who will take the time to examine the evidence to prove that thy happened. I do not have the time to go into the details of these miracles in this discussion. In fact I have little time to do what I am doing just now. But this subtle suggestion without having the courage to actually say boldly that I am an unbeliever is absurd

What I do not believe in is those who are perpetuating this FRAUD that they have these gifts of the Holy Spirit from God when they cannot prove it from the scriptures or actual demonstration of such powers. I believe that Christ walked on water and that Peter did for a short time himself but I do not believe that Brother Link will ever walk on water nor has he ever walked on water. I trust Christ and the Miracles that he authorized the apostles to do and those done by the ones that the apostle's laid their hands upon to impart miraculous gifts. But those fraudulent liars of our day who pretend to have powers that God has not given then I do not believe and those poor souls who have been deluded by them I pity and pray from. But such does not put me anywhere near the category of someone who is influenced by the skepticism of the age and people that do not believe in the supernatural. You should see the debates that I have with those who deny the supernatural. I believe very much that Christianity is a supernatural religion from beginning to end. But that does not mean that BROTHER LINK has any miraculous gifts from God. In fact, Christianity can be supernatural without a single Christian having any powers other than the natural talents that God has given him. For prayer is supernatural in that we actually speak with the creator of the universe and he answers our prayers. Now every act of God is a Miracle. If God does something but he does not make it manifest that he and he alone did it is not a miracles in the New Testament sense of the word. In fact the New Testament uses words like sign wonder and " mighty works". One of the Characteristics of the GENUINE miracles of the New Testament is that it was undeniable that God did it.

Now because I do not believe in the tricks of the magicians which imitated the miracles of Moses does not mean that I do not believe in the genuine miracles of Moses! Just because I do not believe in those fraudulent con men who pretend to do miracles today does not mean that I do not believe in the Christ and the Miracles that were done by the Christians who actually possessed the miraculous gifts of the spirit in the New Testament.

But I know why you said that, Brother Link. You said that to make people think that if they do not accept your unproven assertions that the miracles continue today they will be unbelievers and not a bit better than the infidels and skeptics of our age. Thus if they cannot be persuaded by the facts they can be induce by fear that they are becoming unbelievers to accept your nonsense. Ha! That one just did not work well for you, now did it?

Now we know that the gospel is the Power of God to save. (Romans 1:16) and that God intended to save all men through the foolishness of preaching that Gospel (! Cor. 1:18). SO we have scriptural reason to believe that one man can hear the gospel believe it and obey it and if one man can do it so can a two and three and even an entire village. But God has not promised miraculous gifts to all men who would become Christians throughout all ages. In fact what we see in the New Testament is that the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit were given through the laying on of the hands of the apostles (Acts 8:14-24; Acts 19:1-6). We would therefore expect that if such a thing happened today it would happen in that same manner. But there are no living apostles of Christ today who have been given the specific mission of revealing and confirming the word of God. SO we shall not see that SAME thing happen today for we are not promised that it will happen. The purpose of the miraculous was to reveal and confirm the word of God. ( Mark 16:17-20; Heb 2:3,4). That task has been completed and does not need to be repeated again. Thus we have no reason to expect to see it happen again today.

God made a man from the dust of the ground but none of us expect God to do such a thing today. He is still able to do it but in the very nature of the way in which he clearly arranged for the human race to be perpetuated by natural means of procreation he has necessarily implied that he has not intent to do it again. God also miraculously created the kingdom of God by these miraculous means and revealed and confirmed his word and preserved the gospel for all ages wherein men could learn and obey the truth. The very way in which he arranged these things indicates his intent that the Kingdom grows and prospers through the natural means of preaching the gospel of Christ. He is not going to reveal and confirm his word again. This explains why John wrote, And many other miracles truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples which are not written in this book. BUT THESE ARE WRITTEN THAT YOU MIGHT BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST AND BELIEVING YE MIGHT HAVE LIFE THROUGH HIS NAME. (John 20:30,31). Now if God intended that anyone today should be convinced to believe in Christ through some miraculous manifestation which they have actually witnessed themselves then he would not have inspired John to record miracles. Why must we depend on recorded miracles if God is showing us the same abundance of miracles today? In fact if the Holy Spirit is guiding us miraculously and leading us in the same way that he did the first century we would not need the WRITTEN word of God. Why would one need the WRITTEN word of God when he is receiving miraculous revelations of Gods word daily within himself by the very Spirit of God himself?

One may as well expect God to create a man from the dust of the ground today or a woman from the rib of man today, as he is to expect God to raise anyone from the dead today. The same is true concerning those who claim to have the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit today.

Then he continues to complain without ever proving that his words are true as follows:

Your argument about 'the perfect' depends on a theological assumption that is, 'mad-libbing' an idea to substitute for 'the perfect' in I Corinthians 13. This passage also says nothing about gifts like healing or miracles like raising the dead ceasing.

Now he does not prove that I have made ANY assumption in my argument from this passage. He simply expects you to believe that I have assumed something without proving it. I am simply stating what the verse says. It says, tongues shall cease. Brother Link would have you to believe that they will last to the end of time. But this verse says they would cease. I have explained several times and do not have the time to go into it again that this was in fulfillment of prophecy of Joel 2:28 and others that predicted the coming and the end of this period of miraculous things. But without going into that these gifts would cease when that which is perfect is come and that which is perfect is without any assumption whatsoever, placed in contrast or opposition to that which was in part. Tongues, prophecy, and knowledge (inspired revelations of Gods will). This is in the passage and in the context but the second coming as the perfect, which Brother Link contends for is not even being discussed in this passage and only by means of extreme ASSUMPTIONS could anyone even imagine that the second coming of Christ is in this passage. We all know that the miracles of raising the dead have ceased. NONE HAVE EVER SEEN AND VERIFIED SUCH A THING in our day. Nor has anyone done any genuine miracles today and every time we try to get someone to demonstrate that they have such powers they come back with nothing but excuses. Watch Brother Link will not offer to demonstrate any such powers and he will come back and repeat again his feeble excuses but we will not see an actual demonstration. When one understands that the purpose of these miracles was to confirm the word of God (Heb 2:3,4, Mark 16:17-20) he can easily understand that when the revelation of Gods word was complete and confirmed the purpose of these miracles ceased and so did these miraculous gifts and their manifestation. Brother Link tells us that these miracles were for the edification of the church but he does not give us any passages that teach such a thing. But then we must know just how these miraculous gifts edified or built up the church. They did this by revealing and confirming the word of God that actually does edify us. But there is nothing edifying in a miracle itself. It is the word of God confirmed to be the word of God by a miraculous manifestation that edifies us. So look to see if anyone can show any other purpose for these miraculous manifestation other than the revelation and confirmation of the word of God.

Then we are told:

Even if you were write that the Joel prophecy mentioned in Acts were completely fulfilled in 70AD, it doesn't logically follow that God wouldn't give gifts like prophecy, healing, or tongues, after that prophecy was fulfilled, in accordance with I Corinthains 12.

Oh, yes it does. And just because you say it does not follow does not make it true. Prove to us that it does not follow. All of these miraculous things are prophesied by Joel and when his prophecy was fulfilled it was completed and there is an end to all that was mentioned in that prophecy. 1 Corinthians 12 is talking about how God, at the time when Joels Prophecy was being fulfilled, distributed these gifts. Some of these gifts were revelatory in nature and some were confirmatory in nature. The two classes of gifts complimented each other and worked together to reveal and confirm the word of God as well as providing the temporary guidance of the church until the entire word of God had been received and confirmed. After that time, the gifts remained until the Apostles died and those upon whom they laid their hands died. Then the church transitioned from the time when inspiration was in chosen men to the circumstance that remains to this day. For now the inspiration is in the written word of God given to us by those chosen men who were chosen for the very purpose of giving to us the inspired word of God that we have today. If you are seeking an increase in your faith go to that inspired word of God. For it is sufficient and complete for that purpose and no miracle or miraculous spiritual gifts can give you any more faith than that which is gained from the inspired and miraculously confirmed word of God. (Jude 3; 1 Pet. 1:3). There is not assumption in any of this.

To take passages which is written to Christians who actually had miraculous spiritual gifts which were written to explain them and correct errors concerning them as having the exact same application to Christians that have not been given such gifts is a tremendous violation of a basic principles of hermeneutics. You should know better.

But take note of the assumption of those who complain about assumption as if they do not make any in their understanding of this issue. Lets just look at one of several assumptions that are required of those who believe that these gifts continue: The major assumption is that because God has once done something he will always do it. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever but he is not doing the same things he did before. Will he die on the cross again? If not why not? You say well he accomplished his purpose of saving that which was lost (Luke 19:10) when he died on the cross and he does not need to do it again? Yes that is true and so also is it true that God accomplished his purpose in the use of the miraculous manifestations of his power to reveal his will and confirm it to us by those that heard him. (Heb 2:3,4). He therefore is not revealing and confirming his word with the miraculous today. If you say that he had some other purpose in miracles then prove it with the scriptures! But simply saying that Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever does not mean that he must of necessity do all that he has ever done in the past today. But we all know that this is not the truth.

Another assumption that they would like for us to accept is that because God has the power to do something that it follows that he WILL do it. WE know that God WILL not lie for we are told that he CANNOT lie. (Titus 2:1) But is it true that it is not within Gods infinite power to lie? Surely he has the strength and power to do so but it is so contrary to his nature that it is not his WILL to lie. Simply because God has the ability or power to do something does not justify the assumption that he WILL do it. God has the power to save all men without the sacrifice of his only Son but he WILL NOT DO SO. He has the power to save those who obey not the gospel even though they have refused to obey it but he WILL NOT DO SO. He has the power to do miracles today and if he chooses to do them nothing can prevent his doing so. But this is the assumption. Show us from the word of God that it is his will that we have miraculous spiritual gifts today and that we exercise them for the same purpose that they were given in the New Testament or any other purpose for that matter. But simply saying that God CAN do miracles today does not justify the assumption that he therefore WILL do them today. Especially since God has made no such promise to us today.

Then he tells us:

Besides,t he Joel prophecy is about 'the last days.' We are still in the last days.

No, Brother Link, Joels prophecy is about the last days of the Jewish dispensation not the last days of the Christian era. The last days spoken of here is not the end of all time at the second coming of Christ but rather the end of the Jewish age. If you have not studied the Old Testament Prophets I recommend a good study of them before anyone believe such nonsense. WE are not still in the last days spoken of the Prophet Joel. Read Joel 2:28 and Acts 2:17-21. WE are not in the last days of the Jewish dispensation. That ended with the destruction of Jerusalem in A. D. 70. WE are living in the 21st century and that is a long time after A. D. 70. Now we are in the last days before the coming of Christ but Joel had not the end of the word in view. Rather he had the end of the Jewish age and the final rejection of the Jews as Gods chosen people in view. No Jew today can practice the religion given to them by Moses for their temple is gone. Those few years from the Day of Pentecost to the destruction of Jerusalem were the LAST DAYS FOR THE JEWS. Thus tongues were a sign of Judgement coming upon the Jews for their sinfulness. They could escape this judgement in Christ, their messiah. And any Jew that understood this prophecy knew that the last days mean severe judgement from God upon them. This Judgement came when Jerusalem was destroyed and Joels Prophecy was completely fulfilled.

Then he says:

Your arguments that miracles were ONLY to confirm the word of God are not Biblical.

Now this is a fine assertion Brother Link but where is the proof of it? I suppose we all should believe you simply because you say so. But I must wait until Brother Link PROVES that these arguments are not Biblical. I can assure you that we will wait a long time for that to happen.

Then he tells us:

 Paul lists miracles among gifts for the edification of the body. So theys till have a role to play in the body. Besides, unbelievers seeing miracles still has an effect these days.

I have explained this above where I have shown that the miracles only edified the church by revealing and confirming the word of God, which is designed to build us up. Paul said,  And now Brethren I commend you to God and the word of his grace which is able to BUILD YOU UP and give you an inheritance among all them that are sanctified. (Acts 20:32). Now what proof do you offer that miracles in any other sense were for the edification of the Church? I have not seen any Scriptures that teach such a thing and you do not offer any.

Now when you say that they still have a role to play I notice that you give no scripture that says miracles still have a role to play so I will refuse to believe you until you find a scripture that says such a thing. I do not think we will read any passage that says such for the scriptures teach no such thing. This is begging the question. The issue in controversy is whether the miraculous gifts of the spirit continue today. If they continue today it goes without saying that they would have a role to play but if they do not continue today it is impossible for them to have a role to play. So why do not you just prove that the scriptures teach that these miraculous gifts continue today and then we can decide if they have a role to play? But we cannot conclude that they continue today just because we ASSUME that they have a role to play today. You must prove that they have a role to play but only after you have proven that they continue. This you have made no effort to do.

Then he quotes my words again and responds as follows:

E. Lee Saffold wrote: >>The gifts were given for the purpose of revealing and confirming the very word of God upon which our faith is built. They accomplished their purpose and none have been given those gifts today. (Mark 16:15- 20; Heb.2:3,4; John 20:30,31; Acts 1:8; 2 Peter 1;3; Jude 3; 1 Cor. 13:8-11; Eph. 4:11;) <<< None of these verses show that the gifts are not in operation to day. You should show verses that supportyour point, not just show verses. In fact, Ephesians 4 tells us that prohpets are given till we come to a perfect man, to the full measure of the stature of Christ. So you have verses in your list that contradict your premise.

Well, now once again we have Brother Links words that these scriptures I gave did not teach that the gifts were given for the purpose of revealing and confirming the word of God. Yes all of these verses taken together teach that miraculous gifts were for the purpose of revealing and confirming the word of God and the fact that that purpose has been completed these verses also show that these gifts ceased and were done away. This includes Eph. 4:11 which says exactly the same thing as (1 Cor. 13:8-13) using the same imagery and therefore does not in the least contradict the premise which these passages all prove. Now Brother Link does not bother to tell us just how these contradict the premise. He simply asserts it but does not prove it. In fact, Eph. 4:11 makes it even more certain that these gifts ceased when the completed revelation and confirmation of Gods word was accomplished. Therefore this verse is in perfect harmony with the premise. SO we cannot believe Brother Link until he offers proof of his assertions which he has miserably failed to do in this case.

Then he plays a trick as follows:

>>>AND YET AGAIN you were given BOOK CHAPTER AND VERSES as follows: >>How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation; which at first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was CONFIRMED unto us by them that heard him; God ALSO BEARING them WITNESS both with SIGNS AND WONDERS AND WITH DIVERS MIRACLES, and GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT ACCORDING TO HIS OWN WILL:<<< A very good and true passage of scripture. If you will notice, this verse does not say that the gifts would cease. It does show that the word was confirmed through sings, wonders, and gifts of the Spirit. But this passage does not say that confirming the word is the ONLY purpose of the gifts. You still have to deal with the fact that gifts edified the body,a nd were to be ministered one to another

Now he assumes that I have used this verse to prove that miracles ceased upon the basis that the passage says that they have ceased. This passage was given in evidence to show that the purpose of miracles was to reveal and confirm the word of God. Now this passage makes that abundantly clear. I then make it clear that now that these miracles accomplished their purpose and in light of the fact that God promised that these things would cease, be done away, and vanish away when that which is complete is come. That which was complete is the culmination of that which was in part. That which was in part was the partial revelation of Gods and confirmation of Gods will. When these divers miracles confirmed the last revelation of Gods will they no longer had a purpose and therefore ceased. Now Brother Link knows this but he tried to make it appear that I said that this verse actually said that the gifts ceased. I use this verse in connection with the others to prove that these miraculous gifts ceased by showing that there purpose was to confirm the word of God and once that task was complete they no longer were needed. This passage does prove what I said that it proved. It proves that miracles were designed to confirm the word of God. All you have to do is read it to see that it is the truth. If the word of God has been confirmed then we no longer have any need for these miracles today. The word of God has been confirmed and this passage proves that to be true. Now if he would like to prove from the scriptures that these miracles have some other purpose then he should do so. But to pretend that I used this verse for any other purpose is just useless.

He tells us that this is a very good and true passage of scripture. I do not know any passages of Scripture that are not good and true do you?

Then he gives some examples from the scriptures and compares them to an imaginary report of miracles today as follows:

If we look at Scripture, we see that miracles accompanied the preaching of the word when it went forth among the Jews. When it first was preached among the Samaritans by Philip, it was accompanied by signs and wonders. When it was first preached in various cities, it was accompanied by signs and wonders. Should we be surprised when we hear accounts of God doint miracles ont he frontiers of the gospel these days? That is in line with the way God operated in scripture.

Once agin we see the assumption that God always operates the same way at all times and places. Ha! The initial preaching of the gospel was accompanied by miraculous and once confirmed by such to be the word of God those who go out preaching it no longer need miraculous confirmation that the scriptures are the word of God. Does Brother Link think that we need miraculous confirmation that the scriptures are the word of God today? Does he think that it has not been sufficiently confirmed by the miracles of that were designed by God to confirm it?

He also asked if we should be surprised to hear accounts of God doing miracles on the frontiers of the gospel these days? No, we are never surprised that men will pretend to be preaching the gospel of Christ and claim that God is doing miracles. If I hear such a report I know that the person making such a report is not preaching the true gospel that was revealed and confirmed by the miracles and wonders that were for that purpose. For that gospel does not need to be revealed or confirmed by miracles today. God has already accomplished that and the prophecy of Joel has been fulfilled and, though I would not be surprised to hear of these lying wonders which are fraudulent in their purpose and intend I most certainly know that the preacher is not a preacher of the truth. He may be deluded or deceived or he may be a deliberate liar but he has seen no miracle from God and anyone who believes him will be lead away into a deception and a lie. For the Gospel has been revealed and confirmed by miracles and there is not other scriptural promise or purpose for such miracles today. Brother link has not even attempted to establish that the scriptures teach that they continue today.

Then he asserts but does not prove that the scriptures that I referenced did not prove my point simply because they did not use the exact words that I used in asserting my point as follows: >> These gifts of the Holy spirit were given according to Gods own will. It was his will to give them through the lying on of the apostles hands (Acts 8:14-24;Acts19: 6; Romans 1:11; 2 Tim. 1:6) and << It was His will to give gifts with the laying on of hands of the apolstes. it was also His will to give them without the laying on of hands of the apostles. He gave a gift with the laying on of hands of elders on one occasion, and I Corinthains 14:13 teaches to pray for gifts. >>it was according to his will that they should cease to be given when the prophecy of Joel was completely fulfilled and when the apostles died and those upon whom they laid their hands died. (Joel 2:28-30; Acts 2:14; Eph. 4:11-17, 30; 1 Cor. 13:8-13)

Where do these verses say that the gifts should cease whenthe paosltes died, and those on whom they laid there hands died. It is not enough to give verse references. You must give verse references that prove your point.

I have explained this in the original thread where I made the arguments. Joel 2:28-30 encompasses all of these miraculous events that occurred from the day of Pentecost to the destruction of Jerusalem. Now this verse says nothing about the day of Pentecost but we know it because Peter told us THIS IS THAT WHICH IS SPOKEN BY THE PROPHET JOEL. This process of reasoning is call logical deduction. These verses do prove my point and I have shown three times now just how they do that using the words that are said in these passages and logical deductions from the combination of these verses. My references here were given for others to read and think about for themselves without my logical deductions to guide or misguide them. My purpose in this post to which you refer was to show that I have shown by the use of numerous scriptures that my point is true in answer to Kelleys charge that I did not use any scripture. But it is a foregone conclusion that he and Brother Link disagree with the conclusions that I have reached from these passages but that does not mean that I have failed to prove my point just because these verses do not use the exact words MIRACLES HAVE CEASED. Brother Link cannot find a single passage in the scripture that says the exact words MIRACLES CONTINUE TILL THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST yet this is what he wants us to believe. But in order to prove it he will have to reference the scriptures and draw logical deductions from the facts that he finds within these passages to prove his point. I have shown the logical deductions that I have made from the facts found in the very words of these passages. I believe that I have established through those facts and the deductions made from them that miracles such as the miraculous Spiritual gifts that were given through the lying on of the apostles hands have ceased. But if Brother link does not know the difference between logical deductions and mere ASSUMPTIONS he should go and learn it before engaging in further discussions. For he cannot reason on any subject without the use induction and deduction from facts obtained in the word of God and he cannot prove his points by mere assertions without evidence to support them nor can anything be proven by assumptions. But demanding that nothing is the truth unless it is specifically stated in the exact word of the proposition set forth as true is ridiculous and he knows it. The scriptures nowhere stated the exact words MIRACLES HAVE CEASED but in every place we have referenced there are facts that point to the truthfulness of this assertion and when brought together but deductive reasoning one cannot escape the conclusion that miracles have ceased.

However, remember also and never forget that this particular subject is not merely on for argumentation but it is one that can be settled completely by actual demonstration. One would think that after so many years of arguing over this matter someone would with these miraculous gifts would decide to help his poor deluded brethren that thinks that miraculous gifts have ceased by demonstrating their powers. I notice that bother Brother Link and Brother Kelley fear this demand for demonstration. But Paul deliberately demonstrated the power of God (2 Cor. 2;4). Something that Brother Link and Kelley cannot do and will not do if they could! If there words mean anything they want us to believe this nonsense simply because they say it is true and on no other basis. They offer neither argument to prove that neither these gifts continue nor do they offer any demonstration of their own claims or the claims of others that they claim to know. They will tell us of miracles that are happening all over the world but will not accept the challenge to find on e single person with these gifts that can demonstrate these power exist. Oh, they tell us these things are happening but they never happen when we are around. Think about it brethren and do not follow those who would lead you into believing in such fraudulent miracles as if they are the genuine miracles of God. Do not listen to those who try to make even the natural birth of a Child comparable to the miracles of the raising of the dead that we find in the New Testament.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, August 30, 2000

Lee,

Your challenge has a major logical flaw. I have never claimed to operate in the gift of miracles or to be able to raise the dead. If you would really study I Corinthians 12, you would see that not every believer has the same gifts. I haven't seen A. Kelley claim to have the gift of miracles either. So your challenge to come raise the dead is a bunch of rhetoric you use to pump up your arguments to make them look bigger.

Even if I could raise the dead, do you think I would go put on a show for you? If I did raise the dead in front of you and a TV crew, would I expect you to believe that? If you see in the Bible that God gave the gift of miracles, and based on your own reasoning no matter what the Bible says, insist that miracles were only given through the laying on of hands of the apostles- even when you are shown that the Bible contradicts this belief- would I expect you to believe a miracle that you saw with your own eyes? You already have your mind made up tht anyone who claims to have experienced the gifts is either deceived or a liar. Why should I believe that, if you won't change your views when confronted with scripture on these issues, that if you see a miracle before your own eyes, you wouldn't assume say the miracle is not for real.

When the Pharisees challenged Jesus to show them a sign, did He show them what they wanted? No. He just gave them the sign of the prophet Jonah. I've explained to you in other threads why I don't believe the gifts are like Superman's powers, to be used only by the will of man. Even the apostles, who had done miracles before, prayed God to see the threats of those opposing them, to stretch out His hand and do signs and wonders. Then we read later on in Acts of great miracles being done by the apostles. If they had to pray for God to do these signs and wonders, how can you believe they just purely did miracles at will, like Superman flying at will. Your challenges to present gifts should not go outside of Biblical teaching about the gifts.

I am not required to come show you some gift of the Spirit. I've never claimed to raise the dead, and if I could just raise the dead at will by the power of God, just whenever I wanted to (and I've already explained earlier why I believe the gifts don't work that way) why would I want to cheapen that by going to put on a big show for some scoffer who won't even change his stance when clearly shown from the written word that he is wrong? If I show you obviously that the Bible not only doesn't teach that 'miraculous gifts' were given exclusively through the laying on of hands of the apostles, and you still hold to this unbiblical belief, can I expect you to believe something you see with your own eyes? If you don't believe the Bible on this issue, would you believe if you saw someone rise from the dead?

I'm not saying that you are unbeliever with no faith in Christ, but you need to grow in faith in the word of God and just accept what it says, instead of insisting on holding to certain beliefs even when the Bible proves that that belief is wrong. Jesus was surprised at His own disciples lack of faith at times.

>>' YOu can't expect the gifts of the Spirit just to work the way you want them to. They are not under your control."

>> Now we do not know if this is the truth for Brother Link offers no proof that it is true. How would he know since he does not have any of these gifts of the Spirit?

What passage of Scripture does he use to tell us that concerning these gifts that "they are not under your control" when the scriptures tell us the opposite with these words: "The Spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets" (1 Cor. 14:32).<<<<

I should have written my comment more clearly. It didn't come out when I wrote it. What I had in mind was that the gifts of the Spirit, which you demand to see in A. Kelly and me, are not under Lee Saffold's control. Do you think they are under your control? You don't even believe they operate today. Do you claim to be a prophet?

The Bible doesn't say people did miracles purely at will. Concerning prophets, Elisha once called more a minstrel (instrumental MUSIC!) when asked to prophecy. Then the Spirit of the Lord came on him and he prophesied.

The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. The context here is telling the prophet to sit down and let another speak when a revelation comes to another who sits. by. 'The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets' does not mean that he prophet could prophesy whatever he wanted to, and it would be from God.' Even Balam, for all his faults, knew not to speak anything that was not from the Lord. If the Lord gives a word, the prophet can speak it. But he doesn't have to keep on talking just because he has a word. He is able to be quiet and let another person speak. (The Corinthian pagans believed in a type of prophecy that overwhelmed the speaker, I've read.)

I wrote: "So in the Biblical account in Corinth, what was said in tongues was unverifiable, without the gift of interpretation. Even that has an aspect of subjectivity.

Lee wrote, >>>But we also read in acts 2:7,8, "Are not all these that speak Galileans? How then hear we every man in our OWN TONGUE WHEREIN WE WERE BORN?" Certainly seems that they were speaking more than one language now doesn't it? All one needs to do are read verse 5 that tells us that there were Jews there from every nation under heaven. No notice that it says EVERY NATION UNDER HEAVEN. But his assertion that it is a "subjective verification he wants us to believe without evidence!<<<<

If you would read your Bible and the messages I've posted, you would see what I am talking about. If you read Acts, you will see that the cloven tongues of fire is only mentioned in relation to the day of Pentecost. You would also see that other people understanding the tongues only shows up on that first historical day of the day of Pentecost.

In I Corinthians 14, Paul writes about tongues in the church service. He says that he that speaks in tongues speaks not to men, but unto God. Much of the chapter gives reasons for why tongues should be interpreted. Paul calls interpretation of tongues a gift of the Spirit. So we see from this chapter that in the situation Paul was talking about when someone spoke in tongues 'no man understandeth him' and that interpretation was needed. So why is it that you think that the person speaking in tongues would speak in a language others present would understand when the Bible says in this passage 'no one understandeth him' and teaches that an interpretation was necessary?

My comments about the time machine were in relation to how tongues operated in Corinth back then because I know you don't accept tongues that occur today, even if they operate the same way as Corinthians.

You talk about going and seeing sick people claiming to be healed, and no one getting healed. You may have seen tongues operating in a way the Bible does not recommend. Well, I've been around the block a few times, and I've also seen plenty of preachers talking about miracles and not doing them. I've seen a lot of people hyped up about gifts, that don't seem to operate in the gifts that they talk about. There is a lot of this going on. But I've also seen real gifts in operation, too. If someone talks about healing and doesn't heal, it may harden the skeptics, but it doesn't negate the fact that God really does miracles and really does heal.

You ask why no one who speaks in tongues ever has the gift of interpretation. This shows me that you haven't done that much research. You can find many people who have both if you would look around enough. There are a lot of churches where utterances in tongues are interpreted. If you didn't seem to have your mind made up about this, and actually changed your views when proven wrong from the Bible, I might even point out somewhere you could go if you were genuinely sincere about learning.

I am under no obligation to dig up some miracle worker to go raise someone from the dead for you, or to put on a supernatural show for you. If you are open to the Bible, then you should allow for the possibility that miracles would occur. If you are so stuck in your own interpretations that you READ INTO the Bible, that you won't believe what the Bible has to say about the issue, I am not going to try to put some kind of miracle show together to convince you otherwise.

>>>Now this is not the only key argument and Brother Link knows it. He tells us that this is especially true since "plenty of people are speaking in tongues and prophesying these days". But do notice brethren that he dose not PROVE to us that there are plenty of people speaking in tongues and prophesying today. He expects us to believe that simply because Brother Link says it is so. We have never seen anyone speaking in tongues or prophesying as they did in the New Testament.<<<

This is just a bunch of sophistry. There are plenty of people speaking in tongues and prophesying these days. I've seen it. It's out there. Let me turn your own cheap rhetorical trick on yourself.

Lee Saffold writes, >>> We have never seen anyone speaking in tongues or prophesying as they did in the New Testament.<<<

But do notice brethren that Lee does not PROVE to us that he has never seen anyone speaking in tongues or prophesying as they did in the New Testament. He expects us to believe that simply because Lee Saffold says it is so.

Let's try to have a serious discussion without all this rhetorical hot air being blown around.

My past experiences can't be 'proven' except from testimony, especially if they are not recorded on tape. Historical events are non-repeatable. Lee, you consider anyone who reports seeing miracles to be a liar or deceived. You are clearly prejudiced. It is a good thing you did not live in the first century and have the same attitude when people bore witness to Christ raising from the dead.

>The only way that we know God's will is through his revealed, confirmed, and inspired word. And he has not promised, nor has he told us in his inspired word that he will give these gifts to anyone in any century other than the first century.<<<

Suppose someone were to say that Acts 2:38 was spoken to a group of Jews in Jerusalem, and the 'afar off' dealt with the Jewish diaspora in the first century. People can go through the Bible with a fine tooth comb and come up with reason why verses do not apply to us.

The Bible, speaking of the body of Christ, teaches that 'to one is given''the working of miracles.' This is Paul's teaching about the body. The Bible tells us how God works. It shows us the kind of things God does through the church.

>>>Therefore while Thomas had some reason to believe Christ was risen we have absolutely NO EVIDENCE from any prophecies that we should expect to witness miraculous gifts of the spirit today. Then he says that Thomas should have believed first hand testimonies. Jesus did not tell him any such thing.<<<<

Another gospel shows us that Jesus rebuked the disciples for their unbelief when they did not believe the testimonies of his resurrection. Jesus also said to Thomas that because he saw, he believed. Blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed.

>But God has not promised miraculous gifts to all men who would become Christians throughout all ages.<<

Jesus said that he who believed in Him would do the works he did, and greater works. The end of Mark says that 'these signs will follow them that believe' including tongues and healing. (Do you accept that as inspired, along with the baptism verse included there?)

>>>In fact what we see in the New Testament is that the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit were given through the laying on of the hands of the apostles (Acts 8:14-24; Acts 19:1-6). We would therefore expect that if such a thing happened today it would happen in that same manner.<<<<

Lee,

It has absolutely been proven from the Bible that these gifts were not given exclusively through the laying on of hands. You have a choice, either believe the Bible, or stick with your own beliefs about this.

7 Acts 8 does not say anything about the Samaritans receiving 'miraculous gifts.' 7 Acts 10 shows people speaking in tongues without an apostle laying hands on them. 7 Acts 19 has just one case of people speaking in tongues and prophesying after an apostle laid hands on them. 7 I Corinthians 12 tells us that gifts are distributed as the Spirit wills. 7 I Corinthians 14:13 shows us that one could PRAY to be able to interpret tongues. 7 In Romans 1, Paul expresses a desire to impart some spiritual gift to the Romans, but in Romans 12, he says the Romans already had the gift of prophecy. He hadn't laid hands on them yet! 7 The scriptures don't label a group of gifts 'miraculous' and say that they are given differently from other gifts. Timothy had a gift in him given with the laying on of hands of the elders.

Lee, it is pretty cheesy, when someone shows from the Bible that you are wrong on a major point, not to address the points that prove you are wrong, and to discuss other parts of the message. But it is just rediculous when absolutely proven wrong from the scriptures, for you to still continue in this believe that the 'miraculous gifts' were only given by the laying on of hands of the apostles. Prove this idea to me from the scriptures!

You considered what happened with Cornelius an exception to the rule. But the fact is, the scriptures do not teach that the gifts being given exclusively by the laying on of the apostles hands is a general rule. You just believe that and bring the idea into the scriptures. to get 'general rules' you must study the Bible. The Bible does not teach that, as a general rule 'miraculous gifts' were given through the laying on of hands of the apostles. That is your general rule, not one from the Bible.

>>>This explains why John wrote, "And many other miracles truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples which are not written in this book. BUT THESE ARE WRITTEN THAT YOU MIGHT BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST AND BELIEVING YE MIGHT HAVE LIFE THROUGH HIS NAME." (John 20:30,31). Now if God intended that anyone today should be convinced to believe in Christ through some miraculous manifestation which they have actually witnessed themselves then he would not have inspired John to record miracles.<<<<

Even those who saw the miracles in the Bible were won through hearing the word of God. Paul did miracles, but he wrote that it was the 'foolishness of preaching' that God chose to save them that believe. So your reasoning is flawed. The fact that John was written so that people might believe doesn't negate the purpose of miracles. Miracles in themselves were never enough to make people believe in Jesus. If they saw a miracle, how would they know they were to believe in Jesus unless they heard the word?

Me: >>>"Your argument about 'the perfect' depends on a theological assumption that is, 'mad-libbing' an idea to substitute for 'the perfect' in I Corinthians 13. This passage also says nothing about gifts like healing or miracles like raising the dead ceasing."

Lee: >>>Now he does not prove that I have made ANY assumption in my argument from this passage. He simply expects you to believe that I have assumed something without proving it. I am simply stating what the verse says. It says, "tongues shall cease".<<<

The assumption is what you believe about 'the perfect' and I've already dealt with that in previous threads. Your concept of what 'the perfect' means, as mention in your earlier post on one of these threads, is not from the Bible. You 'madlib' it into the Bible.

>>> Brother Link would have you to believe that they will last to the end of time. But this verse says they would cease.<<<

I don't deny that whether there be tongues, they will cease. Paul here compares the perfect state to adulthood, and his own state to childhood. You have the Bible, or you an adult, and Paul was a child? Paul's state in the resurrection may well make his previous earthly state seem like childhood. 'The perfect' here refers to completion. In chapter 15, Paul tells us about the resurrection of the dead. We see in chapter 13, Paul mentions tongues and prophecy, and then expands on them in chapter 14. He mentions the perfect, and then expands on the resurrection in chapter 15.

>>>I have explained several times and do not have the time to go into it again that this was in fulfillment of prophecy of Joel 2:28 and others that predicted the coming and the end of this period of miraculous things<<<

Show me where this passage says that there will never be any more tongues or prophecies after that time. Prove to me that the Joel passage not only continued past the day of Pentecost, but continued on during the first century. And prove to me that it finished in the first century and did not continue on to the present day. PROVE IT. Don't just assert it. Don't just say it was true. Prove it. You are basing a theology that limits what you believe God will do in this day and age on this interpretation. You are basing a belief system which can cause people to disobey teachings of scripture like 'forbid not to speak with tongues' and 'despise not prophesyings' on these interpretations.

Absolutely prove from the context of scripture itself that 'the perfect' means what you say it means. Absolutely prove that he Joel prophecy was completely fulfilled, and that NO MORE PROPHECY OR TONGUES WILL OCCUR after the Joel prophecy was fulfilled. Prove it to me from scripture. I challenge, and I know you can't do it. You have to ASSUME what 'the perfect' is and read your assumption into scripture. You ASSERT what Joel's prophecy means, but the text itself does not support your assertion.

>>>>Tongues, prophecy, and knowledge (inspired revelations of God's will). This is in the passage and in the context but the second coming as the perfect, which Brother Link contends for >>>>

Lee, now if I were going to be obnoxious, I could call you a liar right now, and insist that you intentionally lied for the next three weeks, and use that as a weapon against you whenever you posted. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and allow for the possiblity that you got my view mixed up with Akelley's. I see 'the perfect' as referring to the state of the resurrection (which will occur at the Lord's coming but is not the same thing as the Lord's coming.)

My view of this passage comes from looking for 'long thoughts' which occur throughout Paul's letters. Paul has some long threads running through the letters he rights. Where is your idea of what 'the perfect' is even show up in the letter to the Corinthians?

>>>Brother Link tells us that these miracles were for the edification of the church but he does not give us any passages that teach such a thing<<<

Paul, writing to the church, said that the gifts of the Spirit are given to profit withal. It's in I Corinthians 12. I know I've mentioned that it was in that chapter at least one of these threads.

>>> But then we must know just how these miraculous gifts edified or built up the church. They did this by revealing and confirming the word of God that actually does edify us.<<<<

The passage doesn't say that this was the exclusive reason for these gifts. That is your own assumption. You should read the Bible for what it says, not just read your own ideas into the Bible. If God miraculously heals someone who can't walk, that has a very practical purpose. It allows the person who could no walk to walk. The gospels show us that Jesus had compassion on people. He felt that the bent over woman, a daughter of Abraham, should not be bound, and healed her. Jesus was full of compassion. If a member is healed from a sickness, that can help him practically, physically, and build up the faith of the others in the church as well. It may also build up a believers faith in the Bible as well, but the Bible DOES NOT TEACH THAT CONFIRMING THE WORD IS THE ONLY REASON FOR MIRACLES. You seem to read the word 'only' into places in the Bible where it is not found.

>>>>"Even if you were write that the Joel prophecy mentioned in Acts were completely fulfilled in 70AD, it doesn't logically follow that God wouldn't give gifts like prophecy, healing, or tongues, after that prophecy was fulfilled, in accordance with I Corinthains 12."

Oh, yes it does. And just because you say it does not follow does not make it true. Prove to us that it does not follow<<<<<

This is pure sophistry! You are the one making the assumption. You prove that it does. Where does the Joel prophecy say that after the prophecy was fulfilled, there would be no more gifts? Even if you can make a case for that, you still have to show that the Joel prophecy ended in the first century, so that it would conveniently fit into your theology.

It is not enough to assert that the Joel prophecy lasted from Pentecost to a convenient date late in the first century. You must ACTUALLY PROVE IT FROM THE BIBLE. That is the hard part. I see a lot of assertions from you, and not a lot of proof from the Bible. I see you tell us what the Bible supposedly says, but you don't show how the Bible says these things. Some of your assertions contradict scripture. Don't just cite C&V. Cite C&V that actually supports what you are saying.

>>>>All of these miraculous things are prophesied by Joel and when his prophecy was fulfilled it was completed and there is an end to all that was mentioned in that prophecy.<<<

Prove that the Joel prophecy was completely fulfilled in the first century. And prove FROM SCRIPTURE not just by your own opinion, that there would be a complete end to all the gifts mentioned in that prophecy.

If I say that I am going to give a new car to my brother, and I say I'll give it to him on the 3rd, and I give it on the 3rd, I kept my promise. If I give him another car on the 4th, does that make me a liar? Can you say 'You said you would give him a car on the third. You gave him a car on the third, but you also gave him one on the fourth. You are a liar?' I suppose you could, but that would be illogical. If God says he will pour out prophecy at a certain time, and He does it, that doesn't mean he can't pour out prophecy at another time. Your logic does not follow. Plus, you have to prove FROM THE BIBLE. That the prophecies fulfiilment ran from Pentecost to the late 1st century. I have already given references for prophecies occurring in the late 2nd early 3rd century time period. You could just insist that he prophecy was fulfilled whenever you want to believe it is fulfilled, but that is your own opinion.

>>1 Corinthians 12 is talking about how God, at the time when Joel's Prophecy was being fulfilled, distributed these gifts. Some of these gifts were "revelatory" in nature and some were "confirmatory" in nature. The two classes of gifts complimented each other and worked together to reveal and confirm the word of God as well as providing the temporary guidance of the church until the entire word of God had been received and confirmed.<<<<

From what I see, signs and wonders confirmed the word to those who heard the word and saw the miracles. The miracles to the Hebrews confirmed the word to them. But when Paul went out to Illyricum, he preached the word with signs and wonders among them. No one alive today saw the miracles done in the first century. And the Bible doesn't say that someone was only required to believe if he saw a miracle, or that all believers who believed in the first century saw miracles. Sometimes Acts mentions Paul doing miracles, and at other times it didn't.

What I don't see in the Bible is the idea that miracles would confirm the word of God for all time, and then cease. You prove that to me from the Bible. Your view doesn't make sense. The word of God is true. Of course it is. Who do the miracles confirm it to 'for all time.' If I read about a miracle, that doesn't have the same effect as if I see a miracle. Paul didn't just go around talking about Jesus miracles. He did miracles. If talking or reading about a miracle had the same effect, why did miracles continue past the day of Pentecost? The miracles confirmed the word to those who witnessed the miracles. And God is not required to show a miracle to everyone. The Bible doesn't say that everyone saw miracles before believing in the first century.

>>>After that time, the gifts remained until the Apostles died and those upon whom they laid their hands died. Then the church transitioned from the time when inspiration was in chosen men to the circumstance that remains to this day.<<<<

The Bible shows gifts being given without the laying on of hands. Show me the 'circumstance that remains to this day' as you view it IN THE BIBLE. Where is a future church with no miracles in the Bible? Let's discuss the scriputres. I don't want to just see a bunch of your assertions.

You may believe these things. You have been taught them. You may hold to them strongly. But they are not scriptural, and when you are shown that, you should change your beliefs. Or do you just believe only what you are taught, no matter what the Bible says?

>>>Yes that is true and so also is it true that God accomplished his purpose in the use of the miraculous manifestations of his power to reveal his will and confirm it to us by those that heard him. (Heb 2:3,4). He therefore is not revealing and confirming his word with the miraculous today.<<<<

You know, it is customary for the evidence before 'therefore' to prove the conclusion that comes after 'therefore.' The verse you present does not prove your conclusion. Hebrews 2 says that the word preached among the Hebrews was confirmed with signs and wonders. It does NOT say anything about the gifts ceasing. The passages does not say that there were no miracles being done among the Hebrews at that time or that no other miracles would be done.

In fact, THERE WERE OTHER MANFIESTATIONS OF THE SUPERNATURAL RECORDED AFTER THIS VERSE WAS WRITTEN. This should be enough to prove to you that it is wrong to try to use Hebrews 2 as an argument for the cessation of the gifts. The book of Revelation records a vision- a supernatural experience, and tells about witnesses who would prophesy!!!! This passage does show us that when the gospel was first presented to this particular group, it was confirmed with signs, wonders, and gifts of the Holy Ghost.

But if you notice, the Corinthian church not only saw miracles done by Paul, but some of them did miracles themselves. So the word was confirmed, past tense, in Corinth, but miracles still continued in the church at Corinth. We can see this in the New Testament itself.

Lee, you keep making arguments without backing them up from scripture. You argue that the _exclusive_ purpose for miracles was to confirm the word. Yet you present no scripture to prove this. You show that miracles confirmed the word. No one is debating that issue.

What can reasonable conclusions can we draw from the fact that the word was confirmed with signs and wonders in the scriptures.

Would it be logical to say that the word must ALWAYS be confirmed with miracles, and if it is not, then the word is not preached correctly? No, that is illogical. The Bible does not say that every time the word is preached there would be signs and wonders.

Can we reasonably draw the conclusion that the word being confirmed refers to the whole gospel, and that once the whole gospel was presented, and mriacles were done when it was preached that miracles would not be needed? No. This is not a reasonable conclusion.

Can we reasonably conclude that because the gospel was confirmed with miracles when it was first preached among the Hebrews, that no more miracles would ever be done after the gospel was first preached among the Herbews? No, this is not logical, and it contradicts scripture because other mireacles were done later.

Can we reasonably conclude that because the scripture says that signs and wonders confirmed the word, that confirming the word was the only reason for signs and wonders? No. That is plain illogical. The scriptures tell us that he gift of the working of miracles, among others, is given to 'profit withal.' The Bible does not teach that the _exclusive_ purpose for miracles was to confirm the word.

If a father tells his son, 'I will buy you a car. If you have a car, you will be able to drive to school' does that mean that the father buys the car _only_ so his son can go to school? No. Maybe the father wants his son to be able to go work at the grocery store, or to be able to run errands with the car as well.

Miracles did confirm the word, but the Bible does not teach that that was their only purpose. In fact, miracles served a very practical purpose. Jesus had great compassion, and he healed people. One result of the healings were that the people were better! Not only was the word confirmed, but the lame walked. One effect of Lazarus being raised from the dead, is that people heard about it, and believed on Jesus!

Your stance has some faulty logic in it.

-- Anonymous, September 01, 2000