Here is the text of the "moderator's" response to me on the Catholics board. I had barely begun to post interesting essays that questioned the role of the Vatican in political life when I was abruptly banned from the board. Here's what the moderator wrote:

Moderator's Note to Fredrick Sharpe: Respectful debate with Catholics on any subject is acceptable, from population control to dissent from Church teachings. Catholic bashing and the posting of full essays where copyright infringement is in question, is not acceptable. Through the administration screen, I have done a reverse look-up and found your real address to be ava36.drizzle.com. Further posts from you will lead to my notifying drizzle.com of your behavior. I will also look into putting an automatic block on messages that come from your Internet address. In the meantime, it may be helpful to inform you that I can get to single screen in seconds and delete all of your posts at once, with a single action.

-- Moderator (moderator@moderator.com), August 20, 2000

Note the dictatorial tone of this missive, as well as the threatening manner. This smacks of the worst kind of censorship, and reminds me of the list of banned books that the Vatican has kept for years.

The essence of all forms of tyranny can be found in censorship and silencing. The silencing of free speech on the internet, thankfully, can never be fully stopped. This is why I started this board.

Here is a safe place where people of all faiths and all persuasions can meet to discuss the role of the Vatican in our world today, as well as the future role of Roman Catholicism as a faith in our world.

-- Frederick Sharpe (fredericksharpe@excite.com), August 21, 2000

Answers

al-d,

Good to hear from you. What religion does your wife practice now?

-- Frederick Sharpe (fredericksharpe@excite.com), August 21, 2000.

"Like it or not, the hierarchy of the church is tyrannical by its very nature. It is modeled not as an association of equals but as a shepard and his flock. This appears to be a comforting and pastoral image, until you realize that the main diet of shepards is mutton."

Thanks Brian. That was choice.

Gilda, I did feel pushed when young to believe in something I was too young to question or even understand. As I grew older, I realized that not only is the Church wrong in its idea that only Catholics would be going to heaven, but that they were wrong in all of their political machinations. The priests I saw were by and large decent people with a lot of problems -- personal problems, like drinking too much or having bad tempers. Their behavior did not jive with what they were preaching.

The main thing to understand about Catholicism is that it's a religion that teaches its children from day one that it's a sin to be human, that it's wrong to be alive and kicking and full of life. All of that is shut down -- all of that is discouraged. I suppose in that sense it is much like other authoritarian religions.

The moderator of the "Catholic" board is this attitude incarnate. He epitomizes the worst about Catholicism -- it's humiliation of the dissenter, its exposure and condemnation of anyone who legitmately and powerfully questions the Catholic doctrine. The moderator banned me because he could not pose a logical response to the essay I posted there.

Because he could not respond to it logically, he deleted it.

Think about that. Whole volumes could be written about that action alone. That a person finds an idea so threatening or so "heretical" that he must simply ban it from discussion -- even priests were not so bad in discussion. Even they allowed dissent and questioning.

The best religions, in my mind, actually encourage the hardest doubt and debate, they encourage the seeker to continually doubt and question, so that the religion itself is purified by questioning. I'm afraid to say that Roman Catholicism does just the opposite.

If you ever go to a mass, Gilda, you'll see that it's very controlled. The congregation sits silently except for responding en masse or giving peace wishes to each other, but by and large, it's a terribly stifling place to be. I am only just now beginning to understand what being raised in that church has done to me, and how it will take time to get over it, or, as other lapsed Catholics like to say, to "recover."

To me, the politics and policies of the Vatican can now be opened to debate and questioning in the internet. The Vatican cannot shut down the internet, cannot tell us to be quiet any longer. They can no longer silence the huge protest and the demands for human dignity that gays and women especially are asking. I think in about a hundred years the Vatican will be undone by the free communication and open environment of the skeptical internet. It will be forced to change into something that respects human rights instead of abuses them. To them, women and gays do not merit the same sort of human rights as others groups -- they are to be persecuted, condemned, and kept out of the power structure.

All of this is being exposed on the internet. What the Catholic clergy are so skilled at doing -- exposure, condemnation, and banning -- will occur to them.

-- Frederick Sharpe (fredericksharpe@excite.com), August 22, 2000.

By the way, I'm not sure why my responses are going to the top and not to the bottom, underneath yours. I hope you see them. I'll have to figure that out.

-- Frederick Sharpe (fredericksharpe@excite.com), August 22, 2000.

you didn't think satan would roll over did you?? my wife who denounced her catholic-chains-thanks GOD for deliverance!! out of =APOSTASY!!

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), August 21, 2000.

The Catholic church, like most churches, has both a spiritual aspect and a political aspect. The politics of the Pope and the college of Cardinals has long been the most controversial aspect of the church, since well before the Reformation.

Like it or not, the hierarchy of the church is tyrannical by its very nature. It is modeled not as an association of equals but as a shepard and his flock. This appears to be a comforting and pastoral image, until you realize that the main diet of shepards is mutton.

Where the church goes astray, substituting politics for spirituality, is when they insist that God is bound by the Peterine Succession. This works wonders for the authority of the church, but imposes a totally spurious limitation on God.

Obviously, God is free to choose His own instruments and His own vessels, and isn't constrained to use such a clumsy instrument as the college of Cardinals when He has important work to do. God has a whole universe of choice.

Once you realize that the Peterine Succession is meaningless all the rest of the political apparatus falls down. The church is reduced to no greater authority than it can earn by adherence to truth and justice, and can claim no greater divinity than to be another flawed reflection of the light of God.

The irony, of course, is that so many "reformed" Protestants who rightly rejected the idea that the church embodied a divinely bestowed and perfect authority on earth have now replaced that with idea that the Bible embodies a divinely bestowed and perfect authority on earth.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), August 21, 2000.

Frederick, your views are the same views I feel in my heart about any group, religious or otherwise, that would stifle free speech. What a jerk Mr. Moderator is, with his high and mighty stance. Yes, it did sound threatening--spoken like a true believer who is incensed that there could possibly be another point of view.

I think the Vatican and most religions that claim to be the one and only path to heaven, or enlightenment, are archaic and hurtful to civilization as a whole.

I know that I had doubts about chruch dogma at a very early age, although I couldn't express myself very well then. Did you feel pushed and coerced when you were young? I'd be interested in hearing about your metamorphis.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), August 21, 2000.

"I had barely begun to post interesting essays that questioned the role of the Vatican in political life..."

You've got MY attention Frederick!

-- Debra (Thisis@it.com), August 21, 2000.

"Like it or not, the hierarchy of the church is tyrannical by its very nature. It is modeled not as an association of equals but as a shepard and his flock. This appears to be a comforting and pastoral image, until you realize that the main diet of shepards is mutton." Thanks Brian. That was choice.

Gilda, I did feel pushed when young to believe in something I was too young to question or even understand. As I grew older, I realized that not only is the Church wrong in its idea that only Catholics would be going to heaven, but that they were wrong in all of their political machinations. The priests I saw were by and large decent people with a lot of problems -- personal problems, like drinking too much or having bad tempers. Their behavior did not jive with what they were preaching.

The main thing to understand about Catholicism is that it's a religion that teaches its children from day one that it's a sin to be human, that it's wrong to be alive and kicking and full of life. All of that is shut down -- all of that is discouraged. I suppose in that sense it is much like other authoritarian religions.

The moderator of the "Catholic" board is this attitude incarnate. He epitomizes the worst about Catholicism -- it's humiliation of the dissenter, its exposure and condemnation of anyone who legitmately and powerfully questions the Catholic doctrine. The moderator banned me because he could not pose a logical response to the essay I posted there.

Because he could not respond to it logically, he deleted it.

Think about that. Whole volumes could be written about that action alone. That a person finds an idea so threatening or so "heretical" that he must simply ban it from discussion -- even priests were not so bad in discussion. Even they allowed dissent and questioning.

The best religions, in my mind, actually encourage the hardest doubt and debate, they encourage the seeker to continually doubt and question, so that the religion itself is purified by questioning. I'm afraid to say that Roman Catholicism does just the opposite.

If you ever go to a mass, Gilda, you'll see that it's very controlled. The congregation sits silently except for responding en masse or giving peace wishes to each other, but by and large, it's a terribly stifling place to be. I am only just now beginning to understand what being raised in that church has done to me, and how it will take time to get over it, or, as other lapsed Catholics like to say, to "recover."

To me, the politics and policies of the Vatican can now be opened to debate and questioning in the internet. The Vatican cannot shut down the internet, cannot tell us to be quiet any longer. They can no longer silence the huge protest and the demands for human dignity that gays and women especially are asking. I think in about a hundred years the Vatican will be undone by the free communication and open environment of the skeptical internet. It will be forced to change into something that respects human rights instead of abuses them. To them, women and gays do not merit the same sort of human rights as others groups -- they are to be persecuted, condemned, and kept out of the power structure.

All of this is being exposed on the internet. What the Catholic clergy are so skilled at doing -- exposure, condemnation, banning -- will occur to them in time. They will have to bear what they themselves have done for centuries. That is justice.

-- Frederick (fred_sharpe@excite.com), August 22, 2000.

Actually, Frederick, the ONE thing I never had a problem with as I was growing up was that the priests had problems such as excessive drinking, or bad tempers, or other such "human failings". This, to me anyway, showed me that they WERE human and it was much easier to understand where they were coming from.

Yes, I suppose a part of what turned me away was the obvious disconnect in what they "preached" versus what they "did", but it wasn't the most pressing factor. It was more of the "never question" diatribes I was consistently subjected to each time I dared to ask a question of "faith" (their term, not mine).

And sorry, but to tell a six-year-old that "you're all sinners and you're all going to hell!" borders on child abuse.

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), August 22, 2000.

Patricia,

I too was punished whenever I attempted to say a negative thing about the church or a priest. I read a sad newspaper tale about a priest who was molesting several children, and many of the children who reported the abuse were beaten by their own parents. This is the reality of a Catholic upbringing for most -- just don't speak the truth. As adults, I think Catholics feel a pressing need to start speaking the truth more and more, to make up for all the deceit they were taught, and which they were exposed to.

-- Frederick (Fred@sharpe.co), August 23, 2000.

I am an atheist and a retired physicist. I have opposed religious error and tyranny for decades. My files have vast amounts of data on science and religion. Feel free to use any and all as you choose.

http://www.pdox.net/~glk/

-- Graham L. Kendall (gkendall@wamego.net), August 30, 2000.

Mr. Kendall,

Checked out your site -- great stuff. I will take some of your work on Bruno and post it here.

-- Frederick (frederick@sharp.co), September 04, 2000.

You all are seeing the truth about a religion that uses truth to hide it's errors. The reason they ban those who sincerly question there purpose is because there teachings aren't sincere. As Jesus said there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed. I myself am deleted every time I use scripture wich exposes there controlling of people by there lies. May you all come to the knowledge of the truth as Gods word says the light reproves the darkness. Have a blessed day!!

-- ALex loves truth (Jesuislife@Christianemail.com), July 11, 2001.