I am purchasing a Leica IIIf RD from a friend tomorrow. I have used many Leicas including M6, M3, III, and IIIC, but never a screw mount with a flash option. How does this work? 1) what is the max synch speed? and 2) what are the numbers on the scale for under the shutter speed dial? All other operations I am familiar with. Thanks.

-- Todd Frederick (fredrick@hotcity.com), August 19, 2000

Answers

The following is for the red dial IIIf only. I have listed the electronic flash info. If you want the info for flash bulb just let me know what kind of bulbs.

electronic flash / 1/50 shutter speed / set sync dial to 20 electronic flash / T, 1 - 1/25 shutter speed / set sync dial to 0 electronic flash / B shutter speed / set sync dial to 2

-- John Collier (jbcollier@home.com), August 20, 2000.

The following is for the red dial IIIf only. I have listed the electronic flash info. If you want the info for flash bulb just let me know what kind of bulbs.

electronic flash / 1/50 shutter speed / set sync dial to 20

electronic flash / T, 1 - 1/25 shutter speed / set sync dial to 0

electronic flash / B shutter speed / set sync dial to 2

-- John Collier (jbcollier@home.com), August 20, 2000.

I'm going to risk being wrong, and say those numbers can't possibly be true. The ONLY time when the whole film is simultaneously available for an electronic flash exposure (that is, when the shutter isn't moving across in a slit) is at the crossover speed between the shutter speed dials--1/20th or 1/30th, I don't remember which is on that camera. Any other faster speed will result in a partial-frame exposure.

The dial under the shutter speed indicates how much ahead of the shutter's opening the flash is touched off. Bulbs require some ignition time and are lit a bit ahead--15-20 for most bulbs (those numbers are 1/1000s of seconds). Electronic flash fires immediately, without a warm-up time, and the 0 setting is used. This is in an ideal world, and tests are sometimes needed with these cameras to make sure those numbers are OK.

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), August 21, 2000.

I will run a test on this today and get back to you. I will also try to find a book. The notion that the "delay" numbers are an advance firing scale does seem to make sense since the old bulbs needed time to reach maximum illumination before the shutter fully opened. I'll give a report on this.

-- Todd Frederick (fredrick@hotcity.com), August 21, 2000.

I'm with Michael.

rick :)=

-- rick oleson (rick_oleson@yahoo.com), August 21, 2000.

Michael raises interesting impediments to the flash sync info from Leica. The red dial IIIf cameras (IIf RD and If RD as well of course) have a redesigned shutter from the earlier cameras. The slowest speed on the high speed train is 1/50. This is the fastest speed where the curtains are fully open. The earlier cameras had the slowest speed on the high speed train as 1/25. Some black dial cameras had the improved shutter as well, though I cannot say whether the shutter dial was changed to take advantage of this, and earlier cameras that were repaired or updated might have the newer shutter installed too. Unlike the M cameras, with the sync operating through the actual movements of the shutter curtains, the IIIf cameras sync through the shutter timing mechanism itself ( i.e. the rotating shutter dial). This means that the sync dial has to be set to seemingly weird numbers when using the slow speed train even though electronic flash is being used. The slow speed train, or more correctly escapement, does its thing before the regular action is allowed to trigger the second curtain. So the flash has to be triggered earlier than if the camera is on the high speed train (1/50). I wish I could go into more detail but I am already stretching my limited screwmount mechanical knowledge to the limit. Cheers.

-- John Collier (jbcollier@home.com), August 21, 2000.

What I did: today I took two snaps...one at 1/50 on dial #20 and one at 1/25 on dial #0. this is a red dial, by the way. I will process it tonight and report. This mechanism is also beyond my limited brain!

Incidently, what is the difference between a IIIf, IIf, and If? My serial number is: 612705. According to Stephen Grandy's Camera Quest site this number is a IIf, but it looks identical to the IIIf's I've seen and was advertised as a IIIf. No big deal, but I am curious.

Thank you.

-- Todd Frederick (fredrick@hotcity.com), August 21, 2000.

Of course as soon as I posted I found a black dial camera with the slowest speed of 1/30. Further digging resulted in me not finding any IIIf cameras with a 1/50 slowest speed on the high speed train but I remember that the IIIg is similar (slowest speed on the high speed train is 1/30) and it will sync at 1/50 with electronic flash. Sorry for the confusion. :-(

The IIIf has a full range of speeds from T, B, 1 sec to 1/1000. The IIf has no slow speed escapement so the slowest speed is 1/25 or 1/30 depending on the camera. The If has no slow speed escapement and no rangefinder or viewfinder but it does have two accessory shoes to mount finders and what not.

-- John Collier (jbcollier@home.com), August 21, 2000.

From Todd:

My unit has a full range of speeds so it is a IIIf. Evidently Camera Quest's serial number list is incorrect.

I'm still totally cornfuzed about this flash issue. I guess the best way is to experiment, but there are so many possible combinations.

Does anyone have a manual or a guide book they could scan a page on flash use, and send it to me or post it here? I can't find any guides locally.

I'm probably not going to do more than 5% or so flash with this camera, so sorry about making such a big deal out of it. Appreciate the time y'all are puttin' in on this!

Todd

Thanks.

-- Todd Frederick (fredrick@hotcity.com), August 21, 2000.

I will send you a scan but it is just repeating what I wrote already.

-- John Collier (jbcollier@home.com), August 21, 2000.

GULP! (The sound of me swallowing words, mine.) Well, the thing to remember is that the transitional speed between the dials is the max electronic flash synch speed, whatever that speed is. . . . and I do think that the 0-20 dial is advance firing in ms, which shouldn't be needed with that transitional speed, at least. I guess you need to shoot a shot with each shutter speed, at each advance setting, so that would be. . . . . 21x12 or so. . . . only 252 tests. But if you went in increments of 2/1000 on the synch dial, and only did the low speeds, below about 1/250 that would only mean about 100 trials--might as well keep it simple :-)

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), August 21, 2000.

"Test" results....big test...2 shots. Yep, Michael, thought there might be a few more if we did every combination!

I did 1/50 at #20 and 1/25 at #0.

They both produced a full negative...no cut-off areas. That's the good news.

The 1/50 was about 2 stops underexposed. The 1/25 was dead on. Why?

Guess I'll try again...maybe it was the flash.

-- Todd Frederick (fredrick@hotcity.com), August 21, 2000.

Perhaps the 1/50th exposure was two stops off because the flash went off when the shutter was closed and the picture was shot with entirely ambient light? That would be my guess. You know, it's not necessary to blow a lot of film to figure this out. Take out the film, and replace it with a sheet of white paper. Remove the lens and point the flash at the shutter. Fire. Do you see white paper, or black shutter? How much of each? Adjust until you see all white paper, all the time.

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), August 22, 2000.

Michael, you're correct! In the test photo there is a computer screen. In the 1/25 sec exposure the flash burst appears in the computer screen. In the 1/50 it does not. Your analysis is correct. I will try the paper trick.

I must not become obsessive about this!...the only reason I asked this question is that I want to use this camera for b/w photos when I photograph weddings, mainly available light, with a top viewer, zone focus, but will need to use flash occasionally. I'm even thinking about doing some infrared wedding images with it...never done that. I have no problem using 1/25 of a second...that is very handholdable with this camera. What's nice is that the III series cameras are so quiet and small, I can get some really fine candid wedding photos (even with a tiny flash) not always possible with a big visible SLR or MF. Am I crazy!?

-- Todd Frederick (fredrick@hotcity.com), August 22, 2000.

Here's what happened:

I tried the white paper test...Interesting trick: it creates an intense visual afterimage and you can "see" exactly what's happening after the flash has fired!

1/25 at 0 setting...full white image through lens port. 1/50 at 20 setting...no white image. 1/50 at 0 setting only 2/3 white image. Different increments until about 10...then nothing.

Regardless of what the Leica charts indicate, on my camera (IIIf RD) the only electronic flash sync that works is 1/25 at 0 setting.

I can live with that. Thank you all for your help and suggestions.

-- Todd Frederick (fredrick@hotcity.com), August 22, 2000.