My wife and I were invited as a guest speaker in another town for the weekend. I want to share what happened there, how God works!! We arrived late in town about 10:00PM. No motel available in town, since some cultist group was meeting in a resort area for a week. We looked all over for miles around. Nothing available. We drive up to the last one, and no room in the inn there either. About that time we smell gasoline, and strong. We drive a 91 Dodge Dynasty, a great car. It had blown the fuel line at the fuel filter, near the right rear wheel. Gas everywhere. Now get this. A lady from next door to the motel happens to be in the parking lot of the motel, and notices what has happened. She runs to get her husband to help. I had left my tools at home. Her husband comes out, sees the problem, runs to the phone to call his close friend, a man who travels in a truck, answering calls 24 hours a day for people with car trouble. He was in bed, and says he couldn't come. Then he recognizes the voice of his personal friend on the phone, and says he would come anyway. He repairs our vehicle in 30 minutes. Now the lady comes back out and says that there wasn't a motel available for miles. "Whatever will you do" she says. Then she notices our license plate which says, "Acts 2:38". Oh, since you read the Bible, come stay in our place. She gives us the guest room, feeds us, and in the morning gives us breakfast!! How is that for God's delieverance, protection, and provision, in a situation that seems impossible!!

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2000

Answers

Connie....

Sigh!!

There is not one single thing that can be construed as "miraculous" in anything that happened to Bob.

A miracle rightly defined is anything that is outside the bonds of natural working phenomenon.

Bob met same gracious people.....pure and simple.

To equate what happend to Bob as being the same thing as "parting the Red Sea".....or the raising of Lazaurus is exactly the kind of thinking that undermines the credibility of the Bible and Christianity.

Now if Bob had been blown up in a gasoline explosion and killed....and the guy's wife raised him from the dead....then we could talk miracle.

Otherwise....thanks be to God who still works through the hearts and minds of God fearing people today!

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2000

AKelley....

You can define "a mighty rushing wind".....as gas coming from your posterior end if you want to.

However, just like your definition of "miracle"....it is both unbiblical and it stinks!!!

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2000

John....

I prefer biblical definitions as opposed to "illustrative stories"....that prove nothing.

God's working in the lives of men is not by biblical standards....a miracle. If George Mueller turned stones into bread....that would be a miracle by biblical definition. If George Mueller fed 5000 kids with 5 loaves and 2 fishes....that would be a miracle.

I could sit here and give you a hundred instances of God's goodness in my life......and every single one of them did not involve a single miracle. It involved God stiring the hearts of his people through whatever medium (often the spoken or sung word).....and they rose to the occasion.....in very natural ways that did not involve the miraculous.

No where is the hardening of Pharoah's heart ever called a miracle....nor even hinted at being a miracle.

John....I believe you to be intelligent enough to research and study the hermenutical principle of "the parsimony of miracles." I hope you will do it.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2000

Just thought of a way to explain further John......

If I have blockage in my arteries and am having by pass surgery.....and the surgery is successful.......is it "a miracle".....or.....simply a "wonder"??

It is not a "miracle" in the biblical sense. If it were.....the surgeons would not need to open my chest up and cut away. We would just pray....and boom....the blockage would be gone.

On the other hand....the natural laws that God has put into place for man to tap into....the mind that God has given man to think and to reason....to figure things out....it most certainly.....a wonder!!!

Our age of the church confuses the word "miracle"....and "wonderous"......they are two different things by biblical definition.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2000

Benjamin.....

EXACTLY!

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2000

Connie....

1) First of all.....I could care less what the dictionary definition of a word is. The dictionary contains definitions according to modern usesage. I want to know "What did the word mean when people OF THAT DAY used the word?" (Don't worry...using a dictionary is a common hermenutical error.)

2) Second, you think way too highly of yourself. I would have pointed out the error regardless of who said it!! Just ask AKelley!!!

3) I'm more interested in using Bible terms for Bible things. I'm really not interested in "what works for me."

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2000

Connie...if you can't stay up with the big dogs...then stay on the porch. Really.....the woman side of you comes out way too much and you constantly whine about "the boys hurt my feelings." For 66 years of age you need to grow up.

John....yes...it is worth arguing about. Two reasons: 1) That is what this forum is about; 2) As I've already stated....intelligent non- believers find it laughable when Christians refer to ordinary events as "a miracle."

I have too much respect for the real miracles of God to allow them to be minmized by people whose faith is so weak they constantly search for a "miracle high" to boost them along.

"Blessed are those WHO HAVE NOT SEEN.....and yet believe."

-- Anonymous, August 20, 2000

Connie...

In the words of Ronald Reagan, one of the greatest presidents in US history......"There you go again!!"

For someone who is so against being judgmental.....you are THE MOST JUDGMENTAL PERSON ON THIS FORUM....by far!!!!

Only you do it in a cutsie little spiritual subvertive way by claiming....."I'm praying for you"....then launch off in a tirade of declaring you know what is best for someone.

I don't need you to pray for me. You know nothing about me, my life, or my ministry....which for your information is quite successful. I've been doing this for 19 plus years now. My week this week is filled with two outside speaking engagments in addition to my church work.

Outside of "Connie's World" (which by the way still sounds an awful lot like Nelta's world).......there are actually people who still are vitally interested in the truth of God's word without all the ecumenical, teary-eyed hoo-hoo that often is thrown on top to sugar coat everything.

Your little "pray for you antics" are yet another way of gaining sympathy for your opinions.

Again Connie....you are on of the most judgmental people on this forum and have been for a long time.

Look up 1 Cor. 13:6 and start to take it to heart.

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2000

Connie.....

True biblical unity comes when believers unite on the Word of God....AND NOT....."it works for me."

That is your problem....and always has been...i.e., "your yes-but method of interpretation."

"It works for me" will never unite anyone.

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2000

John....

You make the same error Connie does.

I'm going to say it again......the modern day dictionary definition of a word is absolutely irrelevant.

We must know what the word meant in the day in which the author used the word.

The beauty of the biblical languages is the preciseness of the language, quite contrary to the English language.

When you mention cults definitions....again...it is according to the English usesage. For instance, when referring to Jesus as THE SON......the J.W.'s use the modern 20th century concept of son....which is completely contrary to the Roman culture of sonship which is the way the N.T. uses the word.

BTW.....it seems that everytime we (you and me) get into a discussion.....you seem to bring up the concept of "cults." I sure hope this is not a deliberate attempt on your part, as they call in debate.....to "poisen the well."

I'm gonna say it again John.....sloppiness in small areas....leads to sloppiness in big areas.

D.Lee.....again.......Connie proves my point.....i.e., she is the most judgmental person on this board. (Speaking of meanings of words....Connie defines anyone who disagrees with her or questions her......as "fighting" and "not having the fruits of the Spirit".)

Bob....I appreciate your testimony of God's graciousness in your life. All of us who have walked the faith for anytime could share similar experiences.

But the fact is Bob......to refer to what happened to you as a "miracle" not only diminishes what happened to you (i.e., the gracious loving folks who helped you simply became robots of God's overpowering will....as opposed to servants who gave of themselves).....and it most certainly diminishes the greatness and majesty of the true miracles recorded sparringly in God's word.

I'm happy that you acknowledged God's graciousness to you.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2000

Where did Bob ask for any response at all???

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2000

Oh...I'm sorry John. I didn't realize Bob was responsible for that "Contribute An Answer" button.

Silly me....all this time I though Greenspun was responsible for it.

My bad!!!

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2000

John....

Any ideas on who we can talk to about an "Edit" button??

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2000

Ben....

Too bad Paul didn't have that fable when he confronted Peter in front of everyone about his refusal to eat with Gentiles in Galatians.

If it hadn't been for Paul's often times confrontational spirit.....the church might still just be Jewish today.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

John....

I'm the Rush Limbaugh of the Restoration Movement.

Since the church of our day seems to sway more towards the honey side....."so as not to offend people"....in the words of Rush.....

"I AM EQUAL TIME."

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

And John....

Check out this thread for more mounting evidence of who starts the name calling.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

John.....There you go again....making judgments about the way things should be according to "John's methodology. Read D. Lee's post on the "spirit of the age thread" and my response to her.

Benjamin....in a sense you do the same thing as John. No one is "touchy" except to those who constantly feel it is their job to monitor the boards for how people choose to answer different questions.

I agree that personal attacks are off base. So far as I can see....Connie and A.Kelley have been the only ones guilty of such. Eg.....Connie calling into question my family life, my ministry, my psychological state of being.....and one time....even my mother!!! See the threads for some of A.Kelleys personal attacks.

I personally....have not questioned anyone's salvation. Never!!! I've stated what the Bible states concerning salvation and the weakness of other arguments. People who do not believe that way.....then make the statement....."Danny is saying I'm not a Christian."

That's not for Danny to say.....but...for you to compare your beliefs are to the word of God.

Granted....my sarcasm is harsh (towards the arguments....not the person). But I would suggest you read the writing's of Campbell again. It makes me look very mellow. But that is who I am, ask anyone that has known me for 19 years of ministry. And believe it or not, whether you personally like it or not.....there are a whole lot of folks in the world today who like that attitude because they are sick and tired of mamby-pamby preachers who are afraid to take a stance.

I have two couples in my church right now who left their last church because the preacher would not condemn the practice of abortion.

I see no reason to be tactful about calling people who stick scissors in the back of infants head what they truley are....child molesters and murderers!!

And by the way....has anyone ever noticed the very confrontational ministry of the prophets???

So again I ask a question no one has really answered.....did it just work in the prophets age?? Did it just work in the Paul's age??

No....it works today and it is needed today.

For too many I believe we are guilty "of loving 'em" right into hell!

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

D. Lee.....

The "outnumbered" thing doesn't bother me. I've NEVER been interested in "ecclesiastical handcounts.":)

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

Oh Bob....oh Bob. It would have been better just to share your story.

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

Great, Bob,

This is what I mean when I say that God still works miracles. Even though yours might be considered a 'mini-miracle', and not a 'raising of the dead' miracle.

We have had several things like that happen, and it justs makes one feel good that God cares for us in that way.

Praise our miracle-working God!

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2000

Danny give it up... to the Lentz family God worked a miracle in their lives or as one person defines a miracle it is God's provisional care done in an extrodinary way. Danny sometimes you are so cynical it surprizes me. Many time not only has God done a miracle for me by providing good Christian people to help me out but has sent angels to help me and be my rear guard! Hallelujah!!!!

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2000

Is not God working in the affairs of men the definition of a miracle? Some miracles are perhaps less "miraculous" (impressive) than others, but are they no less miracles? Is not God's provision in circumstances where it would seem improbable if not impossible by mundane means miraculous? Is not God working in the hearts of men to harden them (as in the case of Pharoah) or soften them (as in the case of the people above) miraculous?

A hundred or so years ago, a man named George Muller (an awesome man of God!) ran a chain of orphanages in Great Britain, and his sponsorship was based entirely on the power of prayer. A reading of his life story is a study in the miraculous in the mundane. An example: One day, believing in God he gave his last penny to the tax man, and there was no food for the orphans at his orphanage. So he got down on his knees and prayed for bread and milk for the kids. No sooner had he gotten on his knees did a knock come at the door. A milk truck had broken down right in front of his house! Since there was no refrigeration in those days, the driver said the milk would spoil and asked if he could donate the milk to the children. No sooner had the milkman left, than there was yet another knock at the door. A bread truck had broken down in exactly the same place and was in exactly the same dilemma! Thus the children had their fill of milk and bread that day! Coincidence? Or miracle?

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2000

Danny,

I agree, it is surprising that you are so cynical and so unkind that you would post such things on this thread that was meant to praise God in thanksgiving for His faithfulness.

I feel sorry for you, Danny, and for the people whom you teach. I sense that you are questioning some of your positions and trying to moderate them. Believing that you get no instruction or response from and by the Holy Spirit must create quite a lonely existence.

I personally am going to pray that God will reveal himself to you in some miraculous manner that not even someone as jaded as you seem to be can mistake it as being from Him.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2000

Connie: Mini miracle versus miracle?

Danny is not being cynical, he is being Biblical. And he is right...

Yes it is semantics here, but semantics are important if we are to call "Bible things by Bible names, and do Bible things in Bible ways."

I have discussed this with Danny before... he is not denying that God does indeed work in us and through us--He even works in and through non-Christians... He is alive and well--and active in today's world. He answers prayer, and He even does things when we have not prayed for it... this is all part of His providence, all of which Danny would affirm.

BUT... just as "gay" means something entirely different than it did one hundred years ago, so it is with the word "miracle."

We sometimes poetically refer to a newborn baby as a "miracle".

Fine, but poetry makes bad theology. And it does matter.

Because if we call every newborn baby a miracle, what word do we come up with for baby Jesus? A Super-Duper miracle?

I loved Bob Lentz's story, and identified with his experience of how God works in His universe. But remember, it is HIS universe. He created it and established it's laws. And He can direct events and control circumstances, all while using those very laws He established.

But every once in a while throughout history, He would GO BEYOND even His own laws to produce SUPERNATURAL EVENTS for the purpose of credentialing His message. He did this RARELY. This is what made it special and noteworthy.

Certainly a sunset, a spider web, a newborn baby, and a thousand other things can be thought of as miraculous from our perspective because we cannot duplicate them. "Only God can make a tree."

But when we start calling everything that is wonderful about God's creation (and His participation in it) miraculous, we diminish those events in the past which were truly SUPERNATURAL events.

That is Danny's point. And he is right on the money.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2000

Danny,

Where is the 'hermenutic principle' of parsimony of miracles taught or implied in scripture? Is it, or is that a theological princple some people filter the Bible through when they read? We should be careful using hermenutic filterswhich bias us in reading the word of God.

On the definition of 'miracle.'

In English, 'miracle' can be used in a number of ways. Someone might call the what happened with the brother whose car broke down a miracle. But when we are talking about the scriptures, we should keep in mind that there are Greek and Herbew words, and we should use Biblical definitions.

I don't think that either the situation with the broken down car, or the many many wonderful answers to Spirit-led prayers of George Mueller are manifestations of the gift of miracles.

Some want to say that a miracle is something that God does out of the natural order of things- something that defies natural law. Of course, a problem with this point of view is that it is coming from a 19th century world view, rather than from the scriptures. Where doesthebIble describe the principle of 'natural law?' Some int he 1800's believed in Deism. They believed that God created the earth, and set it going based on natural laws, and left it alone and didn't interact with it. Others believed that God used to interact with the world through miracles, but after the canon was closed, the world in their mind operated much like as in the Deist concept- God not interviening too much.

I believe the Biblical world view would be a bit different. Paul said, quoting a Greek prophet, in Him we live, and breathe, and have our being. God makes the wind to blow. He gives us rain, etc.

In I Corinthians 12, the 'workign of miracles' could be glossed 'the working of powers.' the word for miracle here is dunamis, the word for power. Miracles, in this sense, are displays of God's power. Semeion is another Greek word translated miracle. Strongs glosses it as 'miracle, sign, token, wonder.' This word is related to another Greek word which means to indicate or signify. Jesus turned water into wine, fed the 5,000, and did various other miracles.

What about when Jesus said "I AM' and the guards fell on their backs. Might that not have been considered a demonstration of 'dunamis?' that is not that dramatic of a miracle, if we use the word in English.

There has been a lot of debate over the use of what terms to use to designate a miracle. Why don't se just define as they are used in the scritpures, for the purpose of this discussion.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2000

Link,

I have read George Mueller's story and it is indeed miraculous. He did not tell ANYONE of the needs of his orphanages; he only told the Lord in prayer and the needs were MIRACULOUSLY PROVIDED.

I happen to believe there are more miracles than the skeptics suppose.

Something similar to Bob's srory happened to us. We were traveling to Prince Edward Island and were in Massachusetts, on our way right after breakfast. It was a Sunday. When we are traveling, we don't always go to church, and this day we didn't.

All of a sudden, smoke started pouring out of the glove compartment. We quickly pulled to the side of the road, grabbing the cooler because my husband has diabetes and his insulin and orange juice were in it, and we didn't know how long this would take. We barely had time to say, "Please, Lord!"

IMMEDIATELY, a car-carrier with a winch (such as car repair garages use) pulled up behind us and the driver got out and asked what was wrong. We told him, and he determined what the problem was, winched the car up on to the carrier, told us to get in the truck, and zipped off to the next town, telling us that he knew of a garage where it could be fixed on a Sunday.

We got to that town, he unhooked us, told the owner what the problem was and as we tried to pay him, he waved goodbye and said we didn't owe him anything. We were standing there, almost in shock, and the person who fixed it pointed out a cafeteria across the street where we could wait. He said they'd come to get us when it was done.

We thought we'd be there through lunch at least, but after a cup of coffee and reading half of the town newspaper, they came to get us. It took about 20 minutes.

Now I know that 98% of people will consider this whole episode to be coincidental, accidental, or anything but providential.

To us, it seemed almost miraculous, as though God was saying to us that He cares for us. If it had happened the day before, it would have wreaked havoc with our schedule (we were meeting our children at Prince Edward Island and were running late). If it had happened a day later, when we had to drive through quite a lonely forest area for a long distance, we might have had to skip stopping at Kennebunkport, Maine, where President Bush was staying that weekend, which was part of our itinerary.

Now I know these are not earth-shaking things, but it just seems as though God was actually Personally taking care of us. It strengthened our faith. If you want to say it was a mere coincidence, go ahead. I will always believe that God cared enough for simple mundane things in our lives that he intervened on our behalf.

And I always wondered if that driver were a Christian, because so often when things such as this happen, it is Christians who are instrumental in helping.

I agree that raising from the dead, the long day of Joshua, the dividing of the waters of the Red Sea, and the falling down of the Jericho walls rarely happen. But I also think that God reveals himself to his own children in surprising ways. The Scriptures say that God works in mysterious ways. What are those ways?

Bob Lentz knows. And so do I.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2000

'Course Bob didn't call it a miracle.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2000

Perhaps I could inject a little humour here. (We probably need it, the way this thread is going so far!)

A very liberal (theologically speaking) Sunday School teacher had just finished telling her Sunday School class of ten-year-old boys about Moses leading the Children of Israel across the Red Sea.

"Praise the Lord for a mighty miracle," called out one rather precocious and outspoken youngster.

"Ah, but it may not have been quite as much of a miracle as it first appears", said the teacher, true to her liberal point of view. "You see, the place where they crossed was actually the 'Reed Sea', and the water was only about 6 inches deep at its deepest. So it would not be too difficult for a strong wind to push the water back enough for the people to cross on relatively dry ground."

"Praise the Lord for a mighty miracle," the youngster called out again."

"What do you mean?" asked the teacher in exasperation. "Didn't you hear my explanation?"

"Yes, teacher." He replied. "In that case, God drowned the whole Egyptian army in only 6 inches of water. What a mighty miracle!"

----------------

Seriously, though, the definition I was taught for "miracle" throughout my growing-up years was that it was something that God did that was CONTRARY TO ALL NATURAL LAWS. Therefore, anything that happened according to natural laws might be a "wonder", and might very well be specially accomplished by the working of God, but it was NOT a miracle. The Lentz story seems to fall into the latter situation and NOT the former.

On the other hand, most English dictionaries today define "miracle" much more loosely than this, and most people today use the word more loosely than this. And this story would fit the way most people use the word.

To complicate things further, when we talk about Bible things and attempt definitions of Bible things it is important to understand the meanings, at that time, of the Greek and Hebrew words that are used. There are several different Greek words that are translated "miracle" in various English translations (and probably the same is true of Hebrew as well). Unfortunately, this is one group of Greek words that I haven't done research on, and don't have time to do right now. It may be that all of them agree with the looser English definition, or that all of them agree with the stricter definition. Most likely, since language reflects culture and world views, none of the definitions of any of the words will quite fit either of these possible English definitions.

And when all is said and done, we are still conversing with each other in English, and having to cope with the differing connotations the word carries to different ones of us in English.

Perhaps we should make some kind of classification of different kinds of "miracles", e.g. "phenomena" (a more neutral word, perhaps?) that take place through the power of God and contrary to natural law, "phenomena" that obviously show the intervention of God (or Godly principles) in some way but happen in accordance to natural law, etc. We might not be able to agree on which merit the name "miracle", but perhaps we could at least agree on whether particular "wonders" happened in accordance to natural law or contrary to it.

My vote is that the Lentz story shows a wonderful combination of godly people acting in accordance to God's teachings, and perhaps of God manipulating circumstances so that certain things happened at certain times, places, and in certain ways -- but that no natural law was clearly broken.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2000

I have to agree with Connie on one point. George Muller never once told anyone his needs ... except God, in prayer. Yet people would hand him checks for the exact amounts he would specify in prayer he needed, time and time again. If that is not a miraculous intervention of God into the affairs of men, I fail to understand why not.

I also remember a time when Muller was travelling to New York to meet some people and was on a tight deadline. However, the ship came to a halt in the middle of the ocean, and Muller went to the captain to ask why. The captain explained that a large fog bank had moved in and blocked safe passage through to New York Harbor (as it was the height of iceberg season and would have been foolish to have been plowing through it at that time). Muller prayed, and the fog bank parted, allowing the ship to travel through it and make port on schedule. Again, coincidence, or God's miraculous intervention?

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2000

ISN'T ANYONE LISTENING? ARE WE TALKING BEYOND EACH OTHER?

Muller prayed, and the fog bank parted, allowing the ship to travel through it and make port on schedule. Again, coincidence, or God's miraculous intervention?

IT DOESNT HAVE TO BE EITHER... HOW ABOUT GOD DOING WHAT GOD DOES?

Yet people would hand him checks for the exact amounts he would specify in prayer he needed, time and time again. If that is not a miraculous intervention of God into the affairs of men, I fail to understand why not.

BECAUSE GOD CAN DO THOSE THINGS... IF YOU OR I COULD DO IT, IT WOULD BE A MIRACLE! BUT WHEN GOD DOES IT... IT IS PROVIDENCE!

I have read George Mueller's story and it is indeed miraculous. He did not tell ANYONE of the needs of his orphanages; he only told the Lord in prayer and the needs were MIRACULOUSLY PROVIDED.

NO, NO, NO, NO! GOD ANSWERS PRAYER. GOD IS ALL KNOWING. GOD IS ALL POWERFUL FOR HIM IT IS NOT A MIRACLE.

I happen to believe there are more miracles than the skeptics suppose.

NAME CALLING IS COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.

Now I know that 98% of people will consider this whole episode to be coincidental, accidental, or anything but providential.

WRONG. IT WAS PROVIDENTIAL! MY WHOLE POINT. BUT NOT MIRACULOUS!

To us, it seemed almost miraculous, as though God was saying to us that He cares for us.

GOD DOES CARE FOR YOU! HE INTERVENES IN YOUR BEHALF! HE SENDS TOW TRUCKS TO HELP YOU! THAT IS HOW HE WORKS! IS ANYBODY GETTING THIS POINT YET? IF A TOW TRUCK HAD FLOWN DOWN FROM THE SKY WITH WINGS, AND THE MECHANIC HAD SPOKEN YOUR AUTOMOBILE INTO FULL RECOVERY, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A MIRACLE!

Now I know these are not earth-shaking things, but it just seems as though God was actually Personally taking care of us.

WELL, D-U-U-H! GOD IS PERSONALLY TAKING CARE OF YOU! WHY SHOULD YOU BE SURPRISED, O YE OF LITTLE FAITH? NOW WHO IS BEING SKEPTICAL?

If you want to say it was a mere coincidence, go ahead.

RED HERRING! NOBODY IS CALLING THIS COINCIDENCE! GOD GETS THE CREDIT!

I will always believe that God cared enough for simple mundane things in our lives that he intervened on our behalf.

AMEN! PRAISE THE LORD! PASS THE PLATE! WHEN WILL YOU PAUSE LONG ENOUGH TO LISTEN? HERE, I WILL TYPE SLOWLY. I AGREE! GOD CARES ENOUGH FOR THE SIMPLE MUNDANE THINGS IN OUR LIVES THAT HE INTERVENES ON OUR BEHALF! BUT THAT IS NOT A DEFINITION OF A MIRACLE!

I agree that raising from the dead, the long day of Joshua, the dividing of the waters of the Red Sea, and the falling down of the Jericho walls rarely happen.

THANK YOU. THOSE ARE MIRACLES.

But I also think that God reveals himself to his own children in surprising ways.

I AGREE.

The Scriptures say that God works in mysterious ways. What are those ways? Bob Lentz knows. And so do I.

AND SO DO WE ALL!

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2000

AMEN Duane!

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2000

I think we are getting hung up in arguments about words. Let's define terms if we are going to continue along this line of discussion. Maybe we could refer to Greek words and the contexts verses are used in in scripture.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2000

Hi, Duane and Benjamin and all,

Thank you, Benjamin, for that explanation. Earlier, I was going to post the dictionary definition, and will at the end of this post.

Duane, where, then do we disagree? It is in the definition of 'miracle', I see. Perhaps after Benjamin makes his study, he'll come back and share it.

What happened in Bob's case and in our case cannot be considered without crediting God's intervention, FROM OUR VIEWPOINTS. You consider it 'providential'. So do I.

Guess what!? 'Miracle' and 'Providence' are not that far apart!

From the 'Oxford New Shorter Dictionary' of 1993:

MIRACLE: 1.) A marvelous event, not ascribable to human or natural agency and therefore attributed to the intervention of a supernatural agent, esp. in Christian belief, God.

3.) A remarkable or marvellous phenomenon or event.

PROVIDENCE: 3.) The foreknowing and protective care and government of a spiritual power, spec. that of God.

4.) An instance or act of of divine intervention, now chiefly in 'special providence', a particular act of direct divine intervention.

To be a miracle OR providence, there has to be divine intervention. In our case, as in Bob's, it was no natural phenomena, even though He used several human agents.

I believe that the 'unusual and rare', usually one-time miracles are in a class by themselves.

But I am certainly thankful for all those others He provides for each of us, in His Providence.

Praise God! What's to fight about?

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2000

I just re-read Bob Lentz's original posting. Interestingly, he himself never uses the word "miracle" or "miraculous", at least not as far as I could find. He just offers it as an example of how God works. Others of us have had similar things happen, and I think we all agree that God's hand was in what happened.

Whether it can or should be called an actual "miracle" is a matter of semantics. Sometimes God works through people. Sometimes he works through circumstances (what might look like coincidences, in a way, but NOT "mere coincidence"). Sometimes he actually works CONTRARY to natural law, which is how I was taught to define "miracle" and how Duane and Danny are apparently defining it.

Do we have to put every action of God in the same "basket" before we can agree that God was the prime mover in accomplishing something? Can't we agree that this sure seems like a dramatic case of God working (the heading for the thread says, "How God Works") without requiring that we come to an agreement on whether or not it can/should be CALLED (semantics) a "miracle"?

The main problem I see is that calling TOO MANY things "miracles" can devalue the word, but surely ANYONE can see the difference between something like this (whether you CALL it a "miracle" or not) and something like raising the dead or parting the Red Sea.

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2000

Brother Ben:

AMEN AND AMEN!!

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2000

Hi, Benjamin and all,

I agree. But it DOES fit the dictionary definition of the word. Also, a really striking miracle will draw the attention of the whole world. We're still talking about the ones like the changing of the water to wine and the raising of Lazarus.

I don't think those should lessen the import of the seemingly everyday ones. It just makes me love and appreciate God more.

What was Bob's reason for sharing that with us? I took it to mean that we should rejoice with those who rejoice. So I did.

I think Danny just wants to criticize my every word and position. He has what I would call a 'hangup'. Why should my opinions and positions bother him so much if his work for him? Mine work for me.

Respectfully,

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2000

Danny,

Error? Error? WHAT error?

(I own up to MY errors when I make them).

I will respect and listen to you more when you start exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit, which is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. ...... If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

Further up in that passage: (Galatians 5:13-15) For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love, serve one another. For the WHOLE LAW IS FULFILLED IN ONE WORD, IN THE STATEMENT, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. But if you bite and devour one another, take care lest you be consumed by one another. Do you realize how sinful your attitude is?

Who is my neighbor? I'm your neighbor, Danny, and a fellow believer.

You are not treating me the way the Lord has told you to. There are several others here who have been mistreated by you also.

For your sake at the judgment, I pray you will confess, repent, and change your attitude. You are supposed to be transformed by the renewing of your mind. So am I. I'm 66 and still trying. Will you?

In Him,

[Bob, ~ Sorry we're arguing on your thread.]

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2000

Danny, you said:

2) Second, you think way too highly of yourself. I would have pointed out the error regardless of who said it!! Just ask AKelley!!!

You treat AKelley, your 'brother' even worse that you treat me, if that is possible. You completely ignore many of the Lord's admonitions, among which I Corinthians is a supreme example. What we think a miracle is, is nothing to argue about. How we treat one another is.

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2000

One of us calls God's providence miraculous, another reserves that word for extreme examples of God's working. You say to-may-to, and I say to-mah-to! Can we all agree God moves in people's lives and in the course of events around us? Is it really worth arguing over the semantics used? Are we so committed to use "Bible words for Bible things" (which Bible's words? The KJV? NIV? NAS? And where in the Bible is this concept taught?) that we will destroy a brother or sister's faith because they got the words wrong? Is it really "error"? (Personally I reserve the word "error" for doctrinal abberation and heresy ... whether or not providence comes under the pale of the miraculous or not is hardly in this class in my humble opinion.) Why are we so quick to dismiss when someone praises God for His marvelous works and point out the "error" of the way they put it? Why are we so quick to be muckrakers and so slow to praise God and rejoice with our brothers and sisters? Are we all such petty legalists that we are blind to the joy of God's power in our and each other's lives? Why are we, who know the Scriptures, so quick to bicker about the specks in our brother's eyes, being blinded by the logs in our own?

-- Anonymous, August 19, 2000

Yes, John.

I think bickering among believers is dishonoring to God, so I ask forgiveness here for my part in it. Just as we don't like it when our children squabble, I feel God must not like it when His do. In fact, he says he doesn't.

Connie

-- Anonymous, August 20, 2000

I recall a time when I was living in Seattle and was flying to Los Angeles to visit my family. Now ordinarily, I LOVE to fly. In fact I always wanted to be a pilot, but my eyesight was not good enough back when I wanted to learn, so these days I have to settle for being an armchair pilot flying sims. Anyway, I digress. This one particular time, for some unexplainable reason, I was NOT loving it: I was petrified. This was very unusual for me, and so I was praying very hard for God's protection. Suddenly I felt God telling me that things were going to be ok. I was still full of fear, but then I felt Him telling me to look out of the airplane and down at a 10 o'clock position. This was a pretty strange urging, but I complied and looked out of the window. As I looked down, I saw we were over the Seattle cloud cover. Directly below the plane at ten o'clock was the plane's shadow (the sun was at 4 o'clock high). And surrounding the shadow in a complete circle was a beautiful bright circular rainbow! At that time I felt a peace come over me and let out a big sigh of relief.

Was this a miracle? No, it is probably a pretty ordinary natural occurance. But to me, at that very moment in time, it was also a visual picture of what God very specifically wanted to say to me, that His protection was surrounding the plane, that He had heard my prayer and answered it.

-- Anonymous, August 20, 2000

And intelligent non-believers also find it laughable when Christians tear each other apart over semantics and insipid issues ("stupid arguments", as Paul would say), dividing among themselves into factions, schizms and denominations over far less than this issue, such as what color the parsonage wall paint or sanctuary carpeting should be (You don't think this happens? Think again, I've seen it happen!). They will know we are Christians? How, if we do not show love, in its manifold expression, especially to each other? All they know when they see this kind of bickering amongst ourselves over trivia is that we are no different than they are. Some things are not worth bickering about. Some things are not worth drawing battle lines over. Some things just make us look really bad.

"Can't we all just get along?" - Rodney King.

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2000

Danny,

My Bible says I am made in the image of God. I am thankful that God made me a woman of stong emotion, and able to be thankful for the little miracles God sends my way.

I do not whine about your hurting my feelings; you don't; you make me feel sorry for you that you exhibit none of the attributes God has said are important in a man of God.

I think you must have gotten an 'A' in the course on 'contending', but skipped classes on the ones teaching about the Fruit of the Spirit.

Also, I see where I've misunderstood if the purpose of this forum is to argue and insult people. I thought it was to discuss Christian issues in an adult manner, thereby learning from one another ~ an edification ~ a building up in the Faith.

I have a strong and abiding faith that not even the disappointment of seeing a nominal Christian 'preacher' have such an attitude, with no hint of humility, forbearance, mercy, joy, peace, or love can diminish.

The personality you display has none of the mark of Christ. It is the kind of thing intelligent non-believers run from. Who needs it?

Proverbs 6:16-19: NASB

16: There are six things the Lord hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:

17: Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

18: A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil,

19: A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers.

Lying is mentioned twice.

I am praying for you, Danny, and my feelings are not hurt. My intent is not to hurt you, either, but for you to have a life-transforming change of heart which will make you a better Preacher, father and man; someone who can be loved and honored and respected.

In Him,

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2000

Also, I have a cute little dog named 'MacKenzie', half Yorkshire Terrier and half Maltese, who is given a flea shampoo bath periodicaly, so I don't mean him, but I've heard it said that "He who lies down with dogs gets up with fleas'. So I avoid running with dogs.

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2000

HI, i'm new-here.if anyone sees this ,please let me know.

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2000

Sorry John....you're off on this one.

Words mean things. It's a matter of sloppiness.

Sloppy language leads to sloppy theology.

(BTW....that's why "THE" Pastor......is an issue as well.)

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2000

The truth in God's Word, and God Himself are Who I honor.

Division among true believers is detrimental to getting unbelievers to acknowledge that what we have is better than what they have. I do judge you in this matter, and know that God will keep His Word, and judge me in like manner.

In Him, and still praying for you,

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2000

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ, I can not believe the diversity in thinking in regards to the article I wrote to you, "How God Works". I can not believe that brothers would attack one another as you have been doing!!! It almost seems impossible to have such diverse comments on a Christian forum!! Just let me reiterate that I did not intend for my words to end up bringing such grief to your hearts. Simply stated, I was pleased to pass on to you that God was very gracious to my wife and I, when we were up the creek without a paddle!! He lovingly, graciously made it possible for our car to be repaired at 10:00 at night, in an area where no motels or mechanics were available!!! He does all things well, always has, and always will for His children. I love you guys, and hope that we can all grow to be more like Him!! Love you. Bob

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2000

Thank you, Bob.

It blessed me.

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2000

Connie,

You said: "Lying is mentioned twice." in a post to Danny. What is your point here?

Also: "Division among true believers is detrimental to getting unbelievers to acknowledge that what we have is better than what they have."

I have already posted in another thread from the Bible why sometimes division is good. Division among true believers and those who claim to be true believers but adamantly refuse to follow the gospel of Christ MUST be. Again I say, we can not sacrifice truth for unity just because others label us as nominal Christians with bad attitudes, not humble, dogs, liars, without: forbearance, mercy, joy, peace, or love.

I do not want ANY unbeliever to acknowledge that what you have is better than what they have. Many times a half or partial truth is much more harmful than an outright lie. You believe a partial truth concerning salvation that is damaging to a persons very soul. That partial truth is so damaging; it will cause many to go to hell believing they are saved.

TO ALL,

If you personally believe I have been to harsh here with Connie, so be it. I do not care what you think. I am sick and tired of this so- called Christian love many profess today. I am sick that it promotes that many are saved when in fact they have not followed the gospel of Christ. I am sick that it has again this past week taken another member of my family with many more to follow unless true believers wake up and start fighting back. In this lately, I have failed miserably. Are we scared to fight? I am, and have been...so what happens? People die and we have said nothing. Why? There was never the right time, ha, thats a good excuse. Or others will accuse us of being unloving. Any excuse will do you know. But at any cost we must according to others keep the peace, show the fruits of the Spirit, love unconditionally. AT ANY COST, EVEN THE COST OF SOULS BEING ETERNALLY CONDEMNED TO HELL.

The "faith only" doctrine, is partial truth. It is leading more people to hell than any other thing that I know of. It has blinded so many to the complete truth. Satan is indeed having a great day!!

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2000

All this over rejoicing with Bob Lentz and his family, and calling it 'miraculous' instead of 'providential'.

It's irrational.

Sorry, Bob

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2000

Connie,

You say: "All this..." & "It's irrational." After having accused Danny of being someone who could not be loved and honored and respected? Of calling him a liar or at that very least inferring that he is a liar. Your say he exhibits none of the attributes God or the fruits of the Spirit. You called him a nominal Christian preacher with no humility, forbearance, mercy, joy, peace, or love. You also say the personality he displays has none of the mark of Christ.

The does that sound like what you have been preaching to others? How you believe other Christians should behave?

You did not answer my question to you in my last post.

You said: "Lying is mentioned twice." in a post to Danny. What is your point here?

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2000

Yes, Danny, words do mean things. But sometimes they have more than one meaning, or shades of meaning, they are not always black and white. Thats the beauty (and the curse) of the English language. And sometimes it is better to acknowledge that one person's understanding of the word's meaning may be just as acceptable as your own, rather than start a full scale war over which dictionary definition of a particular word should be used in every given point. When I was brought up that was called being respectful and showing Christian charity and bearing with one another in love. Something that seems to sometimes be lacking these days.

(Several cults have gone to this extreme, that every word must have one and only one meaning in all instances, with no shades of grey whatsoever, and that has led them into grievous error.)

There are many things in Christianity that are worth fighting for! On this I am in full agreement with you! Worth using strong words and speaking out for or against! I will not dispute that at all! But I just think that this is not one of them. This is an extrememly minor semantical issue, not a major critical theological watershed, and bickering over it is only serving to divide. The issue of quarreling over extremely trivial issues when weightier matters should be commanding out attention is so important that Paul was inspired to write about it not once, but twice.

2 Timothy 2:23: "Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels."

Titus 3:9: "But avoid foolish controversies and ... arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless."

And indeed, this thread and threads like it have both (a) been unprofitable and useless and (b) produced quarrels among us. Is this what we as Christians should be about? Isn't this what the athiests laugh at us and mock God about?

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2000

P.S. Bob, it blessed me too.

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2000

D. Lee,

I am sorry that I induce such a response in you. You are wrong about the state of my soul. I am born from above, I have been indwelt by the Spirit, and nothing you say can change that. God hears and responds to my prayers. I am content wherein I find myself. God is good.

Someone else made a reference to 'satan' on this thread, not I.

Danny often attacks my remarks, as he did in this thread. I don't know what your reference is to another member of your family being taken by ~ what? The reference to 'lies' also addresses what I am sensing from you. Danny and you are not being truthful when you imply (or state) as you have, that what I believe is not Biblical or that I have not followed the Gospel of Christ. It is untrue and it is ridiculous to bring it up on this thread.

Confrontational vindictiveness is nowhere recommended in the Bible as a way to present the Gospel.

I don't have the heart to fight with you. May Christ reveal Himself to you with a deep love that you will want to share with others.

In Him,

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2000

Danny;

It is not a deliberate attempt to "poison the well." It is merely an area where I have a lot of familiarity and I see parallels to draw. As a wise man once said, "those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Which is why the church is in such a mess today. All the errors today are errors the church dealt with and put behind them in the first few centuries: arianism, paganism, monarchianism, montanism, sabellianism, et. al. .... we just forgot about the lessons we learned.

There was a political cartoon in our local paper last week which is just as appropriate when applied to the spiritual. This guy (actually, a duck) was musing about how people thought the party politics were so mean spirited these days, and he said if he thought this was mean, what about some of the politicking (sp?) of the 1800's? Then he said, "silly me ... that would require people to have some knowledge of history. What was I thinking?"

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2000

A point to notice:

Bob never used or even implied the word "miracle." He merely wanted to praise God about something that happened to him and wanted his fellow brothers and sisters in Christ to rejoice with him. Connie was the first to use the term... and also the ONLY person to praise God about Bob's circumstance and rejoice with him -- until five days after the original post. Seems we were too busy devouring Connie to really care. I'm sorry, but to me, that's rather sad.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2000

John,

You have no idea what you are talking about with the following words about Connie and the rest of us:

...and also the ONLY person to praise God about Bob's circumstance and rejoice with him -- until five days after the original post. Seems we were too busy devouring Connie to really care. I'm sorry, but to me, that's rather sad.

How do you know that Connie is the ONLY person to praise God about Bob's circumstance and rejoice with him? Must a person write in the forum in your eyes to praise God about a situation? You have made a judgement about others here that you know nothing about. You have judged the heart of others, when you do not know if those people have praised God in other than a public forum.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2000

Connie, I did make a statement about satan having a great day, but I did not say you did, so I dont know where your following statement is going Someone else made a reference to 'satan' on this thread, not I. It may be true that Danny often attacks your remarks, I have done the same myself. Danny has attacked remarks I have made, and many others in this forum. Do not feel alone in that. Connie, honestly, have you not done the same to others remarks that you do not agree with? Not only do you do that, but you also personally attack the person. You do not know what kind of husband or father Danny is, yet you attack him personally in that area. You have inferred he can not be loved, respected, or honored. That is a personal attack against his character not his arguments. You say that Danny and I are lying when we say that what you believe is not biblical, or that you have not followed the gospel of Christ. And you say it is untrue and it is ridiculous to bring it up on this thread. You have called us liars, something that you and others thought that E. Lee should not do with Akelley. You think it is horrible for others to do, unchristian, yet you do it. I do not care that you call me a liar. My concern is that I check everything everyone says and measure it with what the bible says. You leave out several things when it comes to salvation. If you do not follow what the bible says concerning salvation, then you are not saved. I can not compromise on what God says concerning salvation just so that you will see me as a loving, fruit showing Christian. That way is truly not from God. As to it being ridiculous to bring it up on this thread that is merely your opinion. I thought it appropriate to the ongoing argument. Confrontationalyes. Vindictiveno. I want you to notice how many times the apostles and disciples were confrontational. Especially when others were teaching something false. You say, I don't have the heart to fight with you. That may be, and if you feel that you can not, than please do not. But do not expect that when you say something I believe to be incorrect concerning the teaching of the Bible that I will not refute it. As for Christ revealing Himself to me with a deep love that I will want to share with others, this he has already done.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2000

Why is EVERYONE (seemingly) so bellicose right now? Could it be the weather? (What's the weather like in the U.S. now, anyway?)

I'm sure when Bob Lentz posted his original message, he intended only to give us the opportunity to "rejoice with those who rejoice" and to give thanks for the providential care of God. Instead, because one person happened to describe the event with a "loaded" word -- one which, whether we like it or not, IS used in several different ways, and means different things to different people -- this thread has become a battleground. And, unfortunately, I see the same thing going on in a couple of other threads right now. It MUST be the weather, or something in the water. Or radiation from computer screens?

How about a truce, for people to cool off? -- and then, if you must continue the "debate" over "what is a miracle", how about doing it in a calmer, more rational manner and in a different thread?

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2000

Benjamin,

My stance against what Connie believes and teaches concerning salvation has been the same; I have not altered from it. It has been the same since the beginning when I first started posting on this forum, before Connie was here. See some of the PK threads for confirmation. It will not change in future.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2000

Sis. Muse,

What I said was as much for Connie as for you -- perhaps even more so since she herself so often complains about the combative tone of some threads in this forum and yet seems to be behaving in the same way right now herself.

As for you, "there is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven" (Eccles. 3:1), and what is appropriate or "timely" at one time may not be so at another. If you have been challenging Connie's views for as long as you say (as I have been myself, at different times and in different ways), I'm sure she already knows how you feel about them.

Saying too much, in the wrong way at the wrong time won't change anything. Few people think really clearly in the height of an argument or when they feel they are "under attack." On the other hand, a polite, reasoned argument, in Christian love, at the right time might work wonders. Have you ever read the fable about how the wind and the sun held a contest to see which one could get a man's overcoat off of him? If you haven't, I'd recommend it.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2000

D. Lee;

I was not meaning to judge anyone. I was merely expressing the obvious evidence in the postings in this thread. If anyone was rejoicing with Bob, you sure couldn't tell it from the posts in this thread. And Bob couldn't tell it either, because he said as much in this thread! So obviously not only was anyone posting in this thread, neither were they emailing Bob, and he had no way of knowing except what he saw, which was bickering and strife, and thus he rejoiced (with the exception of Connie) alone. The man who began the thread enheartened by the powerful grace of God became disheartened by the petty squabbling of God's children.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2000

Benjamin, is this a chinese fable? I'd like to hear it. =)

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2000

Oh, gee, I don't know, Danny .... Maybe it was the fact that he posted here at all, with a big button underneath that said "Contribute an answer", that confused me ...

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2000

John,

It is one of Aesop's fables. Different books have very slight variations in how the story is told -- different translators, perhaps -- but the basic story is the same. Here it is, copied from the "Library of the Future, Third Edition" CD-ROM.

THE_NORTH_WIND_AND_THE_SUN

A dispute arose between the North Wind and the Sun, each claiming that he was stronger than the other. At last they agreed to try their powers upon a traveler to see which could soonest strip him of his cloak. The North Wind had the first try.

Gathering up all his force for the attack, he came whirling furiously down upon the man, and caught up his cloak as though he would wrest it from him by one single effort: but the harder he blew, the more closely the man wrapped it round himself. Then came the turn of the Sun. At first he beamed gently upon the traveler, who soon unclasped his cloak and walked on with it hanging loosely about his shoulders, then he shone forth in his full strength, and the man, before he had gone many steps, was glad to throw his cloak right off and complete his journey more lightly clad.

Moral: Persuasion is better than force. [Another book I have gives the moral as "Gentle words work better than hard ones.]

THE END

--------------------------------------------------------- Electronically Enhanced Text (C) Copyright 1991 - 1994 World Library, Inc.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2000

Benjamin, thanks for that posting. A good story, with a good moral, that many should take to heart.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2000

Guess what brothers? God still reigns and continues to open doors. Case in point. Another calamity with our 91 Dodge. This time the electric window collapsed on the drivers door. (Oh well). Minor detail to have it open all the time. Look what happens now. My mechanic friend and I work for an hour and take it carefully apart. The cable had broken, and what a job to get it out. Now get this!! I called Dodge, and they wanted (are you sitting down) $527 for the cable assembly. 2 Dodge dealers quoted the same price. So I called wrecking yards within 150 miles. All of them knew of the situation and the weakness. A used one would cost $250. Now what do I do? As I was searching, thinking and wondering, it was as if suddenly the lights turned on!! I called a small town where I used to live years ago, and asked the wrecking yard there what it would cost. He said, "I have two Dodge Dynasty's here. You take out the part, and you can have it for $25." I don't know the guy, yet how did this open to me? I was desperately in need again. God knows how to come through and help his children. Amen!! Love you. Bob

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

Wonderful, Bob!

(I won't say 'miraculous' or even 'providential'). May I say that I LOVE your sweet spirit?

May God richly bless you continually.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

Ohhhhh .... I finally get it! Its that authority issue again! Because Paul had a heated confrontation with Peter, that gives us scriptural authority to always react in an argumentative, confrontational, combative, belligerant manner whenever we have a disagreement with out brethren! It is so clear now, why couldn't I see it before!

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

As "The Preacher" (Solomon, writer of Ecclesiastes) said, "There is a time for everything." Certainly there is a time for confrontation -- but not all the time, every time. There is also a time for loving, reasoned teaching. BTW, most, probably all, of Aesop's fables represent sound psychological truth -- including this one. Why not TRY being polite and reasonable to begin with? (In each case -- not just once per person and then forever after you will attack whenever you see the person's name.) You can always switch to "confronting" later on.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2000

Benjamin,

I said my stance on what connie believes and teaches has been the same from the begining, and it has. I did not say that I always use a frontal attack so-to-speak, even though that is my nature. I do have to combat that in myself sometimes.

I do believe that a long while back I wrote you an email concerning this very subject. We are not all alike, and it take all kinds in the body of Christ. I know that you have to understand that from the word itself. Of course there is a time and place for confrontation, but just because you do not believe it is the time or place, does not mean that I agree with your assesment. It is a personal decision. I do wish people would understand that!

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

John,

"Ohhhhh .... I finally get it! Its that authority issue again! Because Paul had a heated confrontation with Peter, that gives us scriptural authority to always react in an argumentative, confrontational, combative, belligerant manner whenever we have a disagreement with out brethren! It is so clear now, why couldn't I see it before!"

This is poor of you. You know that this is not what we are saying. And anyway, it wasn't JUST because Paul had a heated confrontation with Peter...I could pull out many many more examples, but if you think hard enough, you could come up with them on your own.

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

Sis. Lee,

Please also read what I said about our little exchange in Danny's new thread on "The spirit of the age". As I said there, and as I also said in briefer form above, even though you seem to have taken it personally, my original comment about "everyone" being so bellicose right now was NOT primarily intended for you. NEARLY EVERYONE seemed to be behaving that way right then, and there were several that I thought were far worse than you. I intended it mainly for them. With regard to your exchange with Connie, it was actually more for her than for you since she herself seemed to be going against what she so often calls on others to do.

Enough said?

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

Danny,

Thanks!!

You may be equal time, but you are out numbered. Well you do have myself and also E. Lee as I see it. So I guess we have at least three "equal timers". On second thought, E. Lee probably counts for two:)

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

Benjamin,

You assumed too much when you said...

"As I said there, and as I also said in briefer form above, even though you seem to have taken it personally, my original comment about "everyone" being so bellicose right now was NOT primarily intended for you. NEARLY EVERYONE seemed to be behaving that way right then, and there were several that I thought were far worse than you. I intended it mainly for them. With regard to your exchange with Connie, it was actually more for her than for you since she herself seemed to be going against what she so often calls on others to do."

...I understand and have from the begining that you were not primarily intending myself when you inquired why "EVERYONE" was so seemingly bellicose.

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

Sis. Lee,

But you still were the first to respond to what I said, and that response, rather than being something general like Danny's about how "confrontation" is Biblical and sometimes necessary, was to justify your own personal conduct towards Connie. You certainly seemed to feel you were ONE of the "targets" or why would you have felt it necessary to justify your personal conduct against what I had said? I don't think I was "assuming too much" to tell you there was no need for you to feel the way you certainly seemed to be feeling.

I'll repeat the question. Why is everyone so touchy right now?

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

I'M NOT TOUCHY!!!! Now leave me alone while I go kick my dog!

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

Benjamin,

So...I was the first to respond??

Of course I felt I was ONE of the people (why would you use "targets") you were addressing. We...you and I...have had this discussion before, or something similar to it if you will recall. I wrote you a long email about it some time back. And it does seem that you bring it up often.

You assumed too much in thinking I took it overly personally to the possible exclusion of the others. Is that better??

As to your question:

"Why is everyone so touchy right now?"

That wasn't your original question. I thought it was: "Why is EVERYONE (seemingly) so bellicose right now?" Which I took to mean something totally different, more like: hostile, warlike, belligerent, aggressive.

Anyway, I've looked back again over what I've written and what others have written. I first posted in this thread on the 21st I believe. To answer your question about why so "touchy", my uncle died on the 15th. I do not believe he was saved. I believe he like so many others in my family had a "mental assent" or belief only. That day, the day of the 21st, my initial post to connie was the day after the funeral. I had not spoken to him about scriptural salvation. I did not even give him the chance to choose. Complete failure on my part. That inaction probably has cost him his life. And it could cost me mine considering the scriptures I quoted to E. Lee the other day in a private email in Ezek. 33 concerning the watchman.

On second thought maybe you are right, maybe I have been bellicose. The more I talk with you, the more I agree with you on that score. Mostly I have aimed that at myself for being so stupid to let something like this happen. I had prided myself many times on writting letters to everyone I had a known address for about true scriptural salvation. You know, the big pat yourself on the back type thing. Well I didn't have his address. Great excuse huh??

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

D. Lee: Regarding my post ("Ohhhhh .... I finally get it! Its that authority issue again!"), I was attempting to use hyperbolic sarcasm to make a point. :P

P.S. I am very sorry to hear about your recent trajedy. My prayers are with you and your family.

Scott: HAHAHA! As always, I enjoy your sense of humor. And sometimes it is sorely needed around here.

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

My dear brothers, I exhort you. Lay off of one another with the sharp words, and the defenses, and the arguing, and the cynicism, and the criticism!! Please!! Let me ask a question or two. 1. How many Bible studies do you have going with prospects for the church? 2. How much time did you spend on your knees today? 3.Have you asked God to forgive your harsh words that you have been sharing on this forum? 4. If you are preachers of the gospel, haven't you yet learned the merit of patience and forbearance, and turning the other cheek, and forgiving from the heart? 5. Why the attack on your dear brothers and sisters? 6. Get busy--the world is going to hell in a handbasket, and you have the tools to show them how to be set free from the shackles of sin!! Come on, enough is enough!!! I love you. Bob

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000

Amen, Bob!

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2000