What's different this time round?

Dreadful pre-season with results giving no cause for comfort. Defence seemingly in tatters. Treatment room full of players who are doubtful for start of hostilities. PR gaffes show no sign of abating and there is a general feeling of simmering resentment still about the moving of Bond holders (even if Helen Duffy has used up any good will by doing it all in public).

The manager has publicly blasted individual players for poor performances and the whole squad collectively for the same. Some players feel that the manager has no plans for them in his future and feel that he is unapproachable and unwilling to talk about the issue. Players who the manager wants shot of are holding out for a better deal or simply scuppering all offers that are made.

There are glaring areas of weakness in the squad, yet seemingly no cash is forthcoming to make good our deficiencies and sales must be made before purchasing is ratified. The manager's insistence that all players speak English might also bring about a split in the dressing room between English and Spanish speakers. The sale of Howey and purchase of 2 Argentinians and Carl Cort has effectively reduced the quotient of native English speakers still further. After the problems we have seen wrt foreign stars settling on Tyneside, should the continuing policy of buying from abroad be allowed to continue unchecked?

So tell me, are there extenuating circumstances for this position? Is this simply an indication of what having a good relationship with the media can do for you? Was Gullit's principle crime simply the fact that he was a foreigner? Gullit got cut some slack on the weakness of the squad because of his predecessor's predilection for signing poor players; how much slack will Bobby get if his signings are slow to make a difference?

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Answers

Whoa there Devil's boy. To answer your question of whats changed here goes; Robson saved our season last year and in the close season has tried to get rid of the dead wood that has remained at St James for years. Not one player who has left have I disagreed with, and hes got a good price for them. Hopefully bobby will make in roads with the rest of the dead wood, brady to barnsley etc!! Pre-season games should be taken with a pinch of salt, okay we will probably lose at man utd and everyone will start worrying but we cant surely do worse than last year. Steady progress is required and I think bobby is doing sterling work in getting this great club back in some kind of order, even the bookies are starting to take note!!!

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

It seems that the pre-season has dampened some of the euphoria and expectation, myself included.

Robson has done well dealing in the summer and to get rid of Perez was a masterstroke. What worries me the most and I've said it already this morning, is the defensive inadequacies we ALWAYS seem to posses. To his credit Gullit tried something here with the purchases of Marcellino, Goma and Domi. These players came here with excellent reputations on the European game but failed to settle in with exception of Domi and to an extent Goma (early on).

I think there is something deeper rooted here. We have tried various different players in various different formations and yet it still doesn't work.

I don't blame Robson, but I do expect him to sort it out. He is the coach and the expert on European football and you don't spend all the time in football that he has without knowing how to defend properly.

Could it be our inability to attack on the break with speed. This enables other teams to push up and squash us in our own half, piling the pressure on. The opposition know full well that Shearer is not going to tear up the park and leather in a goal before the centre backs know what hit them.

Another problem is the shape and lack of a left winger who would pull defenders wide and open up large gaps in the centre for others to surge through.

Buying another centre back may not be the answer.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

We have a marginally better squad and Bobby Robson. That combination put us about 6th best last season. IF things do go wrong then we have a manager who will sort it out rather than sulking.

We will have a lot of new faces in the crowd for home games, the sort that actually sing when they can get in for cup games etc.. Now they are in for every match the atmosphere will be better. SJP will become a fortress once more. Learn to win on our travels and we'll be top 3.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

We aren't getting beateb by the likes of Livingstone and the manager isn't playing himself rather than a senior squad member who is a much- loved servant of the club. The manager hasn't spent the last year alienating the senior players. The manager doesn't tell Tommy Craig that his reserves are "crap" (see Stuart Pearce's book). The manager isn't an arrogant wa*ker who thinks that a Derby going back to the adys when the Tynemouth and Weramoith monasteries fell out (about 700AD) is less important than the Milan derby. The manager isn't going to start having nervous breakdown son Sky as Gullit did last year. The manager has our star asset playing again.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Geordie, the atmosphere usually deteriorates if anything during Cup games unless it's a particularly exciting game. Spurs at home was terrific last season but the Sheffield United game had perhaps the worst atmosphere of the season.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

"The manager doesn't tell Tommy Craig that his reserves are "crap" "

Dougal, the reserves are crap. That's why Robson is doing his best to get rid of half of them. Gullit was able to make this observation on the strength of having gone along to watch them every time they played, a claim that can be made by a lot less than a thousand others. He was quite right you know, no amount of practice or training or could have improved some of that shower - they needed getting shot of.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Thanks for that Softie ;-)

Now can anyone help me tie this noose so I can end it all now :(

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

can we start a 'Sing, St. James', Sing' campaign or something.

Now we've got a great new stadium, a top manager and a better squad - we've got a bit of confidence - let's show it at the opening matches and inject a breath of fresh air into the place.

I know we normally do that anyway, but if we have a sustained 5 match electric atmosphere for 5 home games runnning, regardless, it could do the team wonders....

plus it'll show EVERYONE connected with NUFC from day one of 2000/2001 season that it's a privilege to be at SJP and you should do your bit for everyone outside the ground...

min

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Softie - walking up to Tommy Craig and saying "I saw your reserves last night and they were shit" i snot the way to deal with it and just about sums him up for the pr.ck he is. Pearce maintains that he made a big, public show of going to half a reserves game so people would think he was dedicated but in fact didn't kno wanyone outside the first side's name. W.nker.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

PS. Softie, I didn't put that very well but anyone who can make such an almighty cock up of telling someone something like that is NEVER going to be able to manage hiS way out of a plastic bag. I don't recall his having too bad an opinion of Carl Serrant ((-:

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

"walking up to Tommy Craig and saying "I saw your reserves last night and they were shit" i snot the way to deal with it and just about sums him up for the pr.ck he is."

I would have seen that game and I would probably have said precisely the same thing, especially if part of my remit was to improve the standard of football at every level of the club.

"Pearce maintains that he made a big, public show of going to half a reserves game so people would think he was dedicated but in fact didn't kno wanyone outside the first side's name. W.nker."

And yet he went to those games. And yet he promoted players from the Juniors into the reserves and from the reserves into the First team and Stuart Pearce of course has no axe to grind. All without knowing the players' names - and incidentally, I bet he could name a damn sight more of them than YBR :-)

Obviously what he should have said is "Tommy, great 3-0 capitulation to Everton's reserves, the lads really showed Cadamateri up as overrated, didn't they?" The reason he should have been so happy with the state of the Reserves is perhaps best evidenced by the fact that the player YBR chose to step up to the first team from this glittering array of talent, was Fumaca. Crap? What a disgraceful thing to say!

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Min - you ain't just been on one of those "team building" outward bound course have you? Grand idea mind! I think the new roof will get a good testing out next Wednesday night. I for one will be Screaching at the top of my voice. And I hear TM's coming along too.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

hmmm...touch of the sunstroke i reckon.

I'll be there for the chelsea match on the 9th so i'll have to give me lungs a good airing then...

any news on yer OT tickets?

min

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

No, but he could have sat down and said "I know you are working hard and the players themselves are but we really need to sort the quality question out". That's management.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Of course Stuart Pearce has an axe to grind. He tells of how he used to try to lamp Gullit in training and Rob Lee would put in a short pass deliberately so he could do so. Shearer once asked Pearce "Why does he hate you so much? Have you been shagging his wife?". Gullit has said similar in his own book (which, lest we forget, he published before anyone else did) - no love lost at all. However, Stuart Pearce has no reason at all to lie about whether Gullit had an interest in the club's youth policy/reserves. Gullit may have been a good coach and even Alan Shearer admits he was a good coach. He was also possibly the least pleasant man ever to set foot in SJP.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

"Stuart Pearce has no reason at all to lie about whether Gullit had an interest in the club's youth policy/reserves"

Other than to market the book at hundreds of thousands of NUFC fans who he knew would then want to buy his book.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Softie,

I really don't want to get into a big 'contre temps' over this, but suspect you're on a loser if your intent here is to polish up Gullit's reputation, and as you well know, being a foreigner had nothing at all to do with his demise.
Let's just remember that BR effected an absolute bloody miracle keeping us in the PL after Gullit had further compounded Dalglish's errors.
The shambles that these two created can not be corrected overnight, but IMO anyway BR has made a pretty good start. Quite obviously there is still an awful long way to go.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Min, bad news mate....I'll be up for the Chelsea game as well ;)) other games you should avoid if you don't want me touching you up are Cov away and Southampton away ;))

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

As opposed to the England/Notts Forest/West Ham fans who couldn't give a f..k and are the larger part of the market? Don't forget, Gullit sanctioned his book first.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

ps. there are three pages about NUFC.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

How do you know he didn't say that? This information isn't from Tommy Craig, who looked to be getting on well with Gullit when I saw them together. This information is from Stuart Pearce. The man who was so professional about being relegated to the reserves that he wouldn't warm up before games and ended up in the treatment room with hamstring trouble.

I'm heartily sick of reading quotes from Pearce, Pistone and Rob Lee about what a shallow, useless bastard Gullit was. When I hear it from Speed and Barton, who positively flourished under him, and McClen and Harper and Hughes and Griffin, who made their real first team breaks under him, I will treat them with a bit more credibility. The fact that these comments aren't readily available suggests that he wasn't as utterly incompetent as the people who have a vested ineterest in asserting he was are saying. Interestingly enough, McClen is not overly impressed with YBR, but I put that down to his disappointment at being put back in the reserves rather than assuming it is gospel.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Gav,

you know how i love it when we get on a train together....;;)) and we're not talking about that little locomotive in your pocket either... ; ))

My only two games i can get to are Soton away and Chelsea at home so you'd better be behaving yerself. Might make Coventry but it's doubtful.

What are yer travel plans....so i can avoid ya....!

min

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

However, McClen also slagged off Gullit in the True Faith interview, saying he ruined his game, making him too defensive. Barton has been relatively critical of him in the Mag and the day Gary Speed expresses an opinion on anything, we may find out whether he actually has a tongue. Gullit was just wrong for Newcastle. He admits he has never supported a football club and that just about summarises why he could never have been right for the Toon.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Ps. Softie - great debate. Devil's advocate worked!

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

I wouldn't get carried away folks, The Stadium is something of a mystery on how it will affect match atmos.

The team I believe is worse at this stage but much of what made it a better team last time didn't work at all. This is what brings me forward. We hit a purple patch last season when Berb arrived, classic honeymoon, but it went a tad pearshaped later. I think we'll be OK as it's easier for good coach to bring an average team round than a bad coach to bring a potentially good one round. I do however grow solace from Wozza Barton, Gary Speed, Alli PistOne, and Dabs all of whom screwed up first season. We then Spend #6m on a Spanish CB and everyone says CR*P! I don't like his lack of bottle in Rome but he could come good....as could a lot of others.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

"However, Stuart Pearce has no reason at all to lie about whether Gullit had an interest in the club's youth policy/reserves. "

None except that it's what his publisher and ghost writer will have asked him to agree to. Dougal, considering as how hardly any f*cker bothers going to the reserves, precisely whom was Gullit hoping to impress by going along? Why did he used to tell Tommy Craig to take players off at half time and we would then see them on the bench come the Saturday if he was solely there to impress the 400 cold, miserable idiots struggling with the arctic gale?

If he had no interest then why was he the one who arranged the open days for hundreds of North East kids to work on their skills? Why did he put Caldwell, Coppinger, Kerr and Green in to train with the first team straight from the U19 group if he had no interest in youth? Seeing as how Bobby has continued with precisely the same practices can we expect later editions of Stuart Pearce's book to contain a stark warning as to how Bobby Robson shows the same lack of interest as Gullit?

I didn't set out in life to be Gullit's apologist, but what I see here is the same sort of crap I had to contend with when I moved back from South Africa. A coutry which is run on an inherently unequal and discriminatory basis is plain wrong: let the facts speak for themselves, don't go making up a load of bollocks to overemphasise the case. Gullit knew plenty about football, coaching and tactics, he was just the wrong person to get those ideas across. The failing was not the result of incompetence or apathy as these tedious accounts keep trying to imply: you do not have a nervous breakdown by not giving a sh*t.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

On a different tack, Uriah Rennie will not be officiating in any of our opening matches which is a postive pointer to this, versus last season.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Yeah but we've got wiggy for the Old Trafford opener and he's notoriously spineless....THE sterotypical homer.......

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Right....now you've convinced Softie, how are you going to convince me that we're any better than the mid table side I think we are??

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Softie, I have read most of this thread backwards so please bear with me if the interpretation goes a little ascue.

So far it started as a feint poke to the anti Gullit folks on here. Fare enough. But I find the inference of blind intolerence a little stiff especially with the evokative lanugae that you use. I for one don't sense a xenophobic streak on here Softie lad, have I missed anything? I am an anti gullit man, no question and was unaware he had suffered a nervous breakdown, shame. But I would say that at the time I felt the following: 1. He and Shearer were a problem that was breaking the club and one had to go - it would have been touch and go if he'd sold Shearer but I wouldn't have called for his head. He did neither. 2. He appeared ignorant of the footballing heritage of the region but more importantly it footballing pride (which can be bad as well as good). 3. His apparent lack of humanity and respect towards fellow staff/players typified by Rob Lee affair seemed ameteurish at best. 4. His seeming ability to build a team environment was laughable and counterproductive due to divide and rule atmosphere (see ALL of above). This is my greatest criticism, when it get tough you need people to pull together, I don't believe he had that. 5. His communication was/seemed arrogant thereby appearing no longer with us, but against us. It may be all about perception but I am no wagon jumper and this was my impression.

Please reply Softie.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Jonno - You're on fine form, pet lamb ((-: Softie - My opinion of Gullit isn't predicated on what I see people saying about him. I was at a Liverpool v Chelsea game a couple of yeras ago through work. Gullit was player manager at this stage. Chelsea were being battered so he took off Vialli (best player on the pitch probably) and came on himself. He ran through the Liverpool defence, was one on one with the goalie, then fell over the ball. Hell breaks loose - he accuses the nearest Liverpool player (at least 5 feet away) of tripping him up. Examines the grass. Complains about it on MOTD and evenb says that it would never have happened in any other country in the world. The Kop had what was no doubt its best laugh ever. And he moaned about that. I have loathed him ever since. He quite literally fell over his own big head. And furthermore, just because an opinion or story is related by someone who has an axe to grind doesn't mean it's not true or that the person giving them some credence is biased/stupid or incapable of analytical thinking.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Lest my rantings make anyone think I'm a Xenophobe, I'm not. Some of my best mates are Xenos.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

I have probably the same expectations as last year, last year I thought once the manager had a pre-season under his belt we could progress but we still had much of the dross from Dalglish left on the books. This year I believe Bob has been hindered by the lack of funds else we would be flying so I expect to sneak a European place and a decent cup run. This could change if we sign a decent CB.

I remember that was the topic this time last year when we thought the problem was sorted with the arrivals of Dumas, Goma & Martha, of the 3 I thought Dumas was the better then injuries took there toll, Dabizas (who was out in the cold for a blunder in Scotland) got recalled to fill the spot and has done alright but we still need help in this area.

The signs are in place for improved PR, 1st Rogan Taylor then free web-casts sadly sadly undone by the family enclosure withdrawl of lounge facilities for patrons who didn't move despite being told otherwise when they made their decision.

The ground is big plus, I hope it can be turned into a fortress once again. The prospect of seeing Cordone running at defences is another reason to get excited, I hope we've unearthed a gem there.

The bad feeling about Gullit is all down to taking sides, remember Stevo's translation of the interview for Voet football or whatever it was; everyone thought he was the bees knees cos he knew what he was talking about. Gary Speed & Barton did progress under Gullit; Dabizas, Rob Lee & Shearer came on a treat under Robson. I don't think Gullit was right for Newcastle, the arrogance required to be a top player needed calming down for a management role and he didn't grasp that.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Do we not see, in Bobby Robsons rantings about the inadequacies of his team when defending a corner, the same sort of damning criticism that Gullit was lambasted for dishing out.

Bobby with over fifty years in football still deemed it necessary to pull Goma off at half time (Dabs at Dundee?)and then publicly bollock the whole team part from Shearer, Given and partly Marcelino (Well the buyers were in Spain weren' they!) Gullit may have had a problem with communicating to players, but if Bobby Robson has the same problem, who is wrong theplayers or the manager.

Robson has stated that he has told them on more than one occasion that it only takes the opposition 3 seconds to score from a corner and our defenders cannot seem to be able to organise quickly enough, or more worringly not one player is taking it upon themselves to organise others.

What I am saying is that the two managers have tried to influence the same players using the managerial styles they possess. Same useless result, both managers increasingly frustrated. If you have tried everything and it doesn't work then you have to change things. Both managers are/were in the position whereby they are not allowed to change i.e buy new players. Gullit bought in and could hardly ask for more money, Robson doesn't have more money.

Gullit made some mistakes and I'm sure Bobby has made/will make a few but if at the end of the day the people they are dealing with are beyond educating, we shouldn't criticise them.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

So far it started as a feint poke to the anti Gullit folks on here. Fare enough. But I find the inference of blind intolerence a little stiff especially with the evokative lanugae that you use. I for one don't sense a xenophobic streak on here Softie lad, have I missed anything? As usual I have expressed myself badly: the "Was Gullit's major crime that he was a foreigner?" comment was supposed to be more obviously tied to the point about having a good relationship with the media, it was meant at all about the bbs. My reading of that situation is that the media loathed Gullit before he ever got here, Every possible negative angle was explored in detail and the positives were always brushed over - a trend which shows no sign of abating.

Compare that with Bobby Robson. It was tough for the media, they had foolishly come round to representing us as noble victims of an uncaring board and an apathetic manager. They couldn't then launch into YBR when he arrived in case it looked like they were picking on us. They had openly mocked YBR during France98 where he was ridiculed by the likes of Jim Rosenthal, and they waited with baited breath for him to screw up. Sadly for them, the Chelsea fans joined in a standing ovation for him at Stamford Bridge, and from the Sheff Wed 8- 0 thrashing onwards (but not a day before) the press have been nothing but positive about YBR. They have passed up the opportunity to draw parallells with his freezing out of Ketsbaia with Gullit's of Lee, the pre-season disasters have gone largely unremarked on, the slump during the run-in when we went from challenging for Europe to a very tame trundle into eleventh.

I see in that the hallmarks of the little England attitude of our press. How dare Gullit come from overseas to try to show us how to play football. YBR, on the other hand, has gone from being mocked out of the England job to being one of the most respected managers in Europe - the only Englishman to be viewed with such respect (unless you count Roy Hodgson in Switzerland). What was always reported as crass arrogance from Gullit is seen as tough- talking and teaking a firm stance from YBR.

"1. He and Shearer were a problem that was breaking the club and one had to go - it would have been touch and go if he'd sold Shearer but I wouldn't have called for his head. He did neither. "

Agreed

"2. He appeared ignorant of the footballing heritage of the region but more importantly it footballing pride (which can be bad as well as good). "

I must admit to being a little hazy about the footballing heritage of his homeland.

"3. His apparent lack of humanity and respect towards fellow staff/players typified by Rob Lee affair seemed ameteurish at best."

Never heard a bad word about him from coaching staff who worked with him. The Rob Lee affair is fascinating. Does the manager have the right to choose who he wants in his team or not? Was his priority to the Club getting 1.5 mil from the sale of Rob to Sotton and Charlton (who both matched our valuation) and saving us the 26k/week on an ageing midfielder, or was it to be nice to a player who refused to accept that he was surplus to requirements. YBR made it perfectly clear to Ketsbaia that he didn't feature in his plans but nobody else told him to hold firm because changes were afoot (as Rob Lee said on "A Round with Rob" on TTTV the other week). You may not like his being refused a number, but how many ways are there to say "Please join another club, I don't want you in the squad"?

"4. His seeming ability to build a team environment was laughable and counterproductive due to divide and rule atmosphere (see ALL of above). This is my greatest criticism, when it get tough you need people to pull together, I don't believe he had that. "

Was he the one doing the dividing? Seems incompatible that a man is accused of both not talking to anyone and dividing the team. A neat trick if you never say anything. It's certainly clear from Rob Lee that persons unspecified had assured him that he should stick it out as change was in the offing, but whether you place the blame for the split on those spreading dissent or the style of the man in charge is open to interpretation. Kieron Dyer revealed that the first thing Bobby said to them was "I don't care who you are, I'm not scared of any of you. If anyone gives me any trouble I'll be straight to the Chairman and have you thrown out of my Club." Seems more likely that Gullit wasn't tough enough to cope with the job at the top rather than a case of having been too hard on the troops.

"5. His communication was/seemed arrogant thereby appearing no longer with us, but against us. It may be all about perception but I am no wagon jumper and this was my impression."

Agree with you entirely. Dr Bill gave us a very clear diagnosis based on the visible symptoms and it all pointed to a complete nervous breakdown. Blaming everyone but himself, refusing to talk to anyone, turning on those who were on his side etc etc etc.

"Please reply Softie."

How's that? Better than talking about Big Brother, surely? ;-)

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Common entities = Barton & Dabizas, Barton is supposedly taking a coahing certificate, how are the lectures structured?

Lecture One: How to get round questions from George Gavin after the televised match.

Lecture Two: Moving on from Lecture One, one hundred and one footballin management cliches.

Lecture Three: Dressing to impress, a time and a place for everything.

Lecture Four: How to defend at corners (Attendance Optional) Learning the fundamental art of defending a set piece, one of the unchanged things about football since the game began!!!!!

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Lecture Four: How to defend at corners (Attendance Optional) Learning the fundamental art of defending a set piece, one of the unchanged things about football since the game began!!!!!

But when do we learn to defend ourselves against point-ed sticks? ;-)

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Softie, Dougal, I'm thoroughly enjoying this debate. Most stimulating thread for some time. Great credit to both of you for keeping it civilised when you obviously fundamentally disagree on Gullit's legacy. Always found it mildly puzzling how Shearer escaped with his reputation untarnished considering how much damage his split with Ruud did to the club, takes two to tango etc.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Thanks for replying Softie.

The media did have a part to play but no less that 4 months prior to his appointment his designer label was being touted round London, it was not his football that attracted the media it was the other interests, and he went AFTER that publicity.

In terms of dividing, it always appeared as if he had his camp, and Shearer/Lee had theirs. It was his responsibility to sort that out, if it means people get fired then so be it. What Bobby did with Kets is quite different in my view as Kets was not a regular 1st team player, Lee aws. I agree Rob Lee is passed his best, but some best. RG lost my support when he slagged off players in public. To say the lads were below par is different from what he said.

In total though, he was not the right man for the job, not just in hindsight, I thought it was wrong when he came. Yes it was a bit of the fancy dan comin up here think he knows it all thing, yes there was an element of that but that was because I felt there was a cultral gap and therefore the understanding (on both sides) wasn't there.....this was the comment about football heritage or pride (ie ours)

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

"Always found it mildly puzzling how Shearer escaped with his reputation untarnished considering how much damage his split with Ruud did to the club, takes two to tango etc. "

For my part, I could have shot him for his part in the mess, but when Bobby took over I said that he would need to play like a #15mil superstar if he was going to stay at NUFC beyond Christmas....he did :-)

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Agree with that one Softie, personally I think his chances of smoothly snuggling next to Bobby R on the coaching side is not cut and dried. I believe YBR when he said you have to go and learn it, bit like he did I think.

PS. hows the cuticles? Not bitten the fingers that far yet? ETF (estimated time of fatherhood)still on course?.....noticed you've been gettin' a bit tetchy like! ;->

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

ETF 16 days. Ante natal class tonight so I get to listen to tubby ladies make unfortunate noises as they shift about on the floor and pretend I wouldn't rather be at Croft Park with Screacher and clarky :-(

Wasn't aware of getting tetchy but I'll take your word for it! :-)

I do like a good debate, mind, specially when everyone steers clear of the personal. I've been programmed to be an awkward sod through studying History. Some people still think History is about studying the past, but it's really about choosing a frame of reference and then having a damn good argument about it. Source material is all ruled out through being either hearsay (secondary sources) or warped through being too subjective (primary sources). This means that since all historians agree that no evidence is admissable, all evidence has equal waiting and it is down to the idividual historian to browbeat his collegaues into submission. I loved it :-)

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Compelling debate and some terrific points made - especially on the different attitudes of the Press towards BR and RG, and the probable reasons.

I hadn't actually realised that RG had had a nervous breakdown, but that would certainly explain a lot.

The simple truth is he was thrown (willingly) into a situation that was beyond his ability to manage. That should not be interpreted as a character defect, but as a simple lack of certain skills. His relative lack of managerial experience almost certainly compounded his problems.

It is not at all unusual for people who find themselves in RG's situation, in very high pressure situations/jobs - as he most certainly was - to suffer physcological trauma. The only solution is to get the individual out of the situation that created that trauma. For his own long-term well-being it just as well that he extricated himself when he did.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

One of the skills he seems to have lacked most was the ability to know his own limitations.

The business with the media is quite stark when you compare him with John Gregory:

Outspoken
Publicly criticizes players
Ostracizes major talents at club
Devalues players on the market by advertising the fact that they aren't needed
Buys a player 'for the fans' - more style than substance

Two main differences:

1) John Gregory is English

2) John Gregory provides the press with constant ill-considered quotes which help to sell newspapers. The day he does a Gullit and stops talking to the media they will crucify him. Probably in September then :-)

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

I have a feeling that John Gregory is going down the same road as Gullit - with a similar outcome looking increasingly likely.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

John Gregory is loathsome BUT he kept Villa in the PL the year he was appointed, took them to 6th last year and 6th plus Cup Final this year so his position can't be anywhere near as perilous as Gullit's was. On the other hand, they had a run just before Christmas where they had fewer points out of about 9 than we had out of our first seven and he was let off the hook.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000