Many religions and secular belief systems incorporate the idea that the things we do will come back to us. Is this part of your belief system? Do you think this is a natural law of physics, a general principle of human nature that isn't really a "rule" at all, or a universal truth governed by mystical forces? Or do you think that life is unfair, and sometimes the bad guys never suffer for their sins? (Richard is going to win the million on Survivor. I just know it.)

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2000

Answers

I definitely believe this. I think you get the treatment you deserve, and if you're a good person who is nice to others, life will treat you accordingly. It may not happen straight away, and it may be difficult to remember when life is hard, but things even out at the end - call it karma, or whatever.

I just think of it as positive thinking. If you approach life positively and assume the best of everybody, people will treat you well. It's as simple as that, and it's worked pretty well for me in recent years.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Natural laws of physics are descriptions of the behavior of nature based on measurable characteristics and which are repeatedly demonstrated under experimental conditions. Karma is not quantifiable.

I think it's all a bunch of hooey anyway. Sure, people attempt to punish the misdeeds of others and reward the noble, but I don't see any basis for how nature would do such a thing.

I also think that karma can be a harmful idea--after all, doesn't it circumvent the need for human compassion? Does it mean that the richest, happiest and most successful people are the best ones and the poor, unlucky ones are merely paying for their misdeeds?

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

I'm with Jackie on this one - i think it's a bit of positive thinking.

Here's how i see it. Perhaps there's no big goddess sitting up on a cloud with a notebook and a fountain pen doing the Santa Claus "making a list and checking it twice" thing. But i think you do attract what you put out.

You know the way positive, happy, and generous people are often surrounded by people who are the same way and people who are bitchy and rude and asshole-y attract the same type of crowd? I think it's like that.

If you're a bitch and all you do is act obnoxious and do mean things, then you're going to attract the sort of people who will do the same to you. And vice versa.

I don't know. It's early and that all sounded logical in my head, but i don't know if that makes any sense at all now.

I'm going to get another cup of coffee now and refrain from writing anything else until the caffeine settles in.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

I'd like to believe in cosmic justice (and I do in a casual, taking a long view kinda way.) I like to think personal balance can be achieved, and that suffering well and being generous through adversity makes a difference in the outcome.

I have some friends who take this idea to an unpleasant extreme. I don't like it when people use "karma" as a way of keeping a tally sheet about who owes them or to whom they are indebted and for how much.

I think that the sheer complexity of interaction between oneself and the rest of the world is pretty amazing. I don't know that there are laws to govern that complexity, but then again how would we ever know? There very well might be, but our ability to understand that type of complexity is too limited. I like thinking that there might be an order I can't comprehend--it keeps me from getting too cynical or bored.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

I think to a degree, you reap what you sow. However, there are some terrible people out in the world that never "suffer" for what they've done. At least now they don't or that I can tell they don't. They seem to always come out smelling like a rose, despite being evil incarnate. The only explanation I've been able to come up with is that Heaven only knows what is in these people's minds.

Rabbi Harold Kushner wrote a book I found very helpful in my personal stuggle with the issue. "When Bad Things Happen to Good People?" basically says there is no answer, things just happen. He debunks a lot of very hurtful sayings people faced with suffering are told, etc... Very good book.

I think I do, however, kinda buy into the karma thing to a degree. You can generate good vibes that effect the people and things around you. And this effects you directly & indirectly.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Sometimes it's nice to think about karma, and believe that there is justice in the world and that people will get what they deserve eventually. It makes us feel a little betterto think that way, I suppose.

But the bottom line reality for me is that it means nothing since I am an atheist and I don't believe any outside force governs this sort of thing...oh well...sigh...

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

I got nothing but love for you people, but we're gonna get this karma thing straight right now.

Karma does not exist in a vacuum - outside of the context of the Four Noble Truths and Eightfold Path, and samsara, karma has absolutely no meaning, no value. They cannot exist without one another. Karma is a spoke on a wheel - not the wheel itself.

Karma is not the same as 'what you put out, you get back'. (Since it would require the belief in the very existence of a 'you', which Buddhism does not - adding new weight to the come- back, "There's no 'I' in team, sir." But I digress.) It's not a metaphysical bargaining chip, or an instant return procedure or a one- on-one transaction (group karma is part of the cycle - how's that for fun!). In fact, reliance on the common Western notion of what karma is ("S/he's a jerk, but s/he'll get it back!"), is the very sort of attachment that Buddhism/ists have recognized as contributing to samsara (the cycle of death and rebirth). Life is suffering, suffering arises from attachment (to things, ideas, the belief in "I") - that's the crux of the situation. Buddhism puts forth paths and truths that can lead to enlightenment and thus release from samsara. Karma is a part of that process.

http://www.tricycle.com/buddhistbasics/

Is a fine place to begin the study of karma and its place in the Dharma.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Yes, but let's not forget the teachings of the Zulu religion, that all bad things are the result of evil sorcery or offended spirits. You don't want to be offending those spirits, man.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Bad people can get good things with no repercussions their whole lives, and vice versa. 'Nuff said for me.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Gabby ---- thanks for the very good explanation. We'll have to come up with a new word for the Western notion of karma.

Jennifer... Yes, evil incarnate type people don't always get their do. (I know all too well.) I reassure myself that my decisions reflect a fundamentally good person who can sleep at ease tonight rather than an evil person who is tormented by thoughts, deeds, etc that aren't really nice. I'd much rather take my lumps and be able to experience true joy & happiness than have to live with an evil mind never truly experiencing any joy - ever. Not to mention knowing all the people who hate me, pity me, etc....

So do we just call that Western karma "bad vibes" instead?

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

due. not do.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Grace, a truly evil person wouldn't be tormented by his or her thoughts and deeds. Nietzsche believed that having no conscience was the key to ultimate power.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

I do not believe that our bad actions generate a bad result -- or, at least, not a different result than good actions. Of course, sometimes other people can affect our fates, and if we have treated them badly they are more likely to treat us badly. But the universe doesn't seem to keep books, as far as I can tell. Some bad people get rich and live to old age, while good people can get cancer and die young. Everything I have seen so far convinces me that fates are apportioned randomly, except for the certain equality of death at the end for everyone.

It amuses me to play with the possibilities, though. For example, what would you have to do in a past life to earn Ringo Starr's good luck? For a rhythmless toad to wind up as one of the musical superstars of an era, you would think he must have saved Atlantis in a former incarnation. What about Cher? And we can assume that Linda Tripp really screwed the pooch in some parallel dimension . . .

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

I believe we reap what we sow, whether it be good or bad. Sometimes truly evil people 'seem' to get away with being that way. We must always remember that money isn't everything, especially if we aren't at peace within ourselves.

And we don't always know 'everything' about a person's life. He/she could appear to be the happiest, most successful, at peace with themselves person when in reality he/she may be miserable.

I know that I sometimes put on a happy face when I'm not altogether happy.

Take for instance, O.J. Simpson. He got away with murder-in this life. If he doesn't confess, he'll answer to God when he dies. And I do believe in Heaven and Hell.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

Not in this life.

I don't believe any unprejudiced view of history can support it, either.

Robber barons died in the lap of luxury, while kids starved outside.

A gay guy gets beaten to death just for being gay, and Lt. Calley got away with an art of villagocide with nothing but a court-martial.

Charles Manson is alive.

A friend with AIDS is dead.

A commander of Serbian rape camps is alive.

Jamie is dead.

I don't believe in justice in the afterlife/next life, either.

I hope.... for mercy.

--Al of NOVA NOTES.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2000

It's my considered opinion that, beyond the very direct causal relationships in everyday life, we have very little control over what happens to us in life. Even those direct causal relationships fail us at times.
The one thing that is truly under our control is our attitude. Okay, that sounds a little hokey, but whaddyagonnado? We determine our attitude, and our attitude determines how we perceive events. This determines our reaction. Which allows us to keep pushing along with life, and working those direct causal angles.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2000

Well, I'm going to make sure that Beth's comment on the "Forum is back" thread about how much she missed me while the forum was down comes back to her by sticking around for a very long time to come. I don't know what she's done to deserve me, but she's stuck with me for a while at least :)

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2000

I'm not a vibes person, but my brother is. He thinks that how you treat the people around you will get back to you one way or another. However, he's also realized that it depends partly on who the people around him are. If you're surrounded by sleazebags and criminals, you can be as nice to them as you want, and it's much less likely to come back to you because they and their acquaintances are much less capable of being nice. He now tries to surround himself with more normal people.

I've always tried to surround myself with people who inspire me to be good, creative, and happy, because I'm more of a follower than a leader. It's much easier for me to get inspired than to inspire. So I guess I believe in the vibe thing, but with the direction of causality reversed. If other people treat me well, then I will be a nice person. If other people treat me badly, it's much harder to be a nice person.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2000

Jennifer,

But would the truly evil person ever know true happiness?

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2000

Why wouldn't an evil person know true happiness? If being a good person doesn't matter to you, the fact that you aren't would be totally irrelevant.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2000

Thinking further about this, I think it's a bit of a worry that the same rule would seem to imply you somehow 'deserve' problems - like you've unwittingly done somebody wrong and earned them.

I don't think I buy it all, on reflection. I'll stick with my philosophy of the benefits of positive thinking, and not try and subscribe to anything else.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2000

I think some folk wisdom turns out to be true. What goes around, comes around. But the race isn't always to the swift. The more you empty out, the more you fill back up. And the kind you put in is the kind you'll get back. But sometimes it doesn't work. Virtue is its own reward. You'll know what you did. If you're cheated, or overlooked, that has its own cachet. No man can know the hour or the day. Death comes for us all. The rest is problematical. Nor can fate be entreated, placated. Influenced, swayed. All you can do is stay true to your own lights and hope for the best. Trust for the best. When you can't calculate, or understand, you can trust, and have faith. Faith in what I am not sure. It changes. I don't believe there is a purpose, or a design. But I believe there are cycles. Processes. I try to get in harmony with positive ones and let the negative ones go. When you're up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember your objective was to drain the swamp. If faut dabord durer. First, you must endure. Before you can prevail. Get the work done, and do it right. Then let go of the outcome. Let the outcome take care of itself. Vinegar Joe Stillwells motto was Illegitimati non carborundum. Dont let the bastards grind you down.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2000