I have a question about religion that has always bothered me. Some of you seem quite well versed about the Bible (No pun intended)and knowledgeable. Maybe somebody could set me straight here. It is my understanding that Satan was originally one of God's angels and that angels were created by God. Satan was cast out of heaven for sinning against God by his pride and thinking he was equal to God. At least that is how I have understood it. My question is, if angels were created by a perfect God in a perfect environment, where did the original "seed of evil" or the propensity to sin come from in the first place? I'm sorry, I don't mean to be blasphemous (sp??) in any way, nor am I doubting God or the Bible. This is just a question I have never been able to figure out. Can someone help me out??

-- (trigger@mcn.net), August 12, 2000

Answers

My faith would lead me to believe that the angels were created to glorify God in heaven. This would make them the predecessors to man. God us a free will when he created humans. Therefore, I have to believe that this is the essence of God to create with choice. Lucifer made a choice- " it is better to Rule in hell, than serve in Heaven " ! I think God loves all of his creations. He let Lucifer live but punished him by placing him in Hell. I have only my faith to confirm this statement.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), August 12, 2000.

Without eyewitnesses or factual reporting, how are we to know, I think it is all hokey-pokey.

-- Hendo (redgate@echoweb.net), August 12, 2000.

Hendo, that is the essence of faith, believing without seeing. You can have l,000 eyewitnesses to an event, and possibly still not have the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth... And Joel, that IS my question, if everything created came from a perfect God, who gave free will, where did the will to do evil come from, because God is perfect, in Him there is no evil. I'm not trying to be contentious, this is an honest question

-- (trigger@mcn.net), August 12, 2000.

Evil rather than being created is the absence of good. The same way that darkness really doesnt exist. It is what happens when there is no light. I believe that our immortal spirit is the part of us that is made in Gods image and the fact that God gave us a choice sets us apart from the rest of the animals in the world. The bible teaches that God cares for the animals but he loved us enough to give us the will to choose whether we would serve him or satan. Then because he knew that given a choice, we being human would make mistakes, gave us a way to be forgiven. This has been from the beginning. I appreciate not being created a robot programmed to think and act a certain way. And as for it being a lot of huey....you either believe it or not...you have a choice. Peggy

-- Peggy (wclpc@cookeville.com), August 12, 2000.

God gave us the choice whether to love and obey Him or not, because otherwise we would be no better than robots, programmed to serve. He wanted love from a willing heart, freely given. I don't believe the Bible specifically says, but He must have given the angels the same freedom of choice that He gave us. But we can't alway understand what God has done, or why, because He is infinite, and we are finite. He's all-wise and all-knowing, and we are not. And sometimes He doesn't tell us everything, even if He could, because we need to learn to trust Him, or because we don't need to know right now, or because foolish people would make contentions and disputes over it. I'm sure there could be other reasons, but you get the idea. Sorry I couldn't give you a more definitive answer, but I hope this helped. Sometimes we just have to trust that God knows the answers and we don't need to (like children need to trust that their parents know the answers to things that the children don't need to know yet -- and may be better off not knowing until they are a little older).

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), August 12, 2000.

Hendo, I'm with you. If I told everyone to feed cheerios to their livestock because I heard the lord (or Ganesh or Buddha) say so, would they take it on faith? No, because they aren't totally stupid, but they continue to believe in ancient superstitions. Try reading non-fiction. Like EO Wilson's "Consilience". And yeah, I've seen the new Wendell Berry book where he gets so frightened of anyone, specifically Wilson, questioning his faith that he panics and resorts (almost) to name calling.

-- Anne (HT@HM.com), August 12, 2000.

I have no answer, trigger. I have taken God on faith alone. Without evil there can be no good is my best response and I agree with Kathleen and Wendy(I think that is Wendy ). By faith alone I believed, by the grace of God through his Son I am forgiven. This is my faith ! I would venture to say that I am the worst sinner in this forum, yet, his grace is sufficent for me. I'm no soul saver. God has yet to reveal my true purpose but he guides me on. I pray he reveals the answer you seek to you. For myself, faith will have to work by itself .

-- Joel (Joel681@webtv.net), August 12, 2000.

Sorry, I meant Peggy, I agree with peggy.

-- Joel (Joel681@webtv.net), August 12, 2000.

And I agree with Joel except I'm probably the worst sinner on here! Matt. 24:44

-- hoot (hoot@pcinetwork.com), August 12, 2000.

I believe that God gave angels the choice to serve Him, just as He did us. He wants us to love Him & follow His commandments freely. It's no different than my own children. I want them to listen to me & follow the rules, but they don't always choose to do so. I still love them just the same. Just as God still loves all of us. It's the bad things we do that He doesn't love. I believe He will forgive any sin as long as we are truly sorry & do not do it again. The only perfect human to walk the earth was Jesus Christ. If everyone lived life as he did, the world would be an awesome place to live. He loved everyone just as His father does.

-- Wendy (weiskids@yahoo.com), August 12, 2000.

AND NOW--I agree with Wendy also !

-- Joel (Joel681@webtv.net), August 12, 2000.

Peggy, My answer to you would be that I believe the absence of good is apathy, not evil. Evil seems to be a force of its own and light illumines the darkness. I understand and agree about the free choice and the faith issues. I just don't understand where the evil originated from in the first place that could be chosen!! For me it takes more faith to accept your dollar bill as being worth a dollar, because the Federal Reserve says it is, than to beleive in a living God that reveals Himself to me in a myriad of ways each day. Guess I just had too much time on my hands "pickin beans" in the hot sun yesterday. Since I don't do any "real" reading, I just didn't realize they had repealed the right of religion and free speech.

-- (trigger@mcn.net), August 13, 2000.

Trigger, my friend--Do not be discourged by your mind contemplating ! This how the most ingeniuous thought of our generation are formed. I call it pondering a thought. I am not trying to sway you one way or another but, not everyone is granted the knowledge of God's will ! It would be like explaining why a secretion from a man, mixed with a fertile egg from woman can create an individual. I have been called confused by a private individual on this forum--So Be IT ! I would rather say that if it was not myself-- than the airwaves would themselves get up and scream for response. Can I make you believe ? No, you already do ! Don't let the petty differences in the scripture sway you. Although the "Bible" was inspired by God it was printed by a man ! SHOW ME THE PERFECT MAN and I'll show you a good liar !

-- Joel (Joel681 @webtv.net), August 13, 2000.

Joel, I am not discouraged by contemplating, quite the opposite. I love to wrestle these kind of issues with God, because He is always faithful to come through with an answer. I believe that my faith can only be shored up by searching for answers honestly and openly. If I tried to stuff my questions under a rock and never examine them, they would turn to doubts rather than "truth revealed" and my faith would eventually be eroded. God is big enough to handle my questions. He didn't fall off His throne when I asked Him. God confounds me sometimes, but I can't imagine trying to live a live without faith. I want to see the goodness of life. Miracles that happen are revealed to us through eyes of faith. I like to think that by believing in a miracle, I somehow participated with God in it. And please, I don't mean that to be as presumptuis (SP???) as it sounds. I just mean that we need to believe in a miracle to see it, and to give God the glory and praise that He deserves!!

-- (trigger @mcn.net), August 13, 2000.

You need no help from me--your faith, is sufficient ! I would only be the blind leading the sighted.

-- Joel (Joel681@webtv.net), August 13, 2000.

Maybe evil can be understood from another angle. If you think man evolved from animals it looks different.Maybe when man was an animal there was no good or evil. I don't see evil in the animal or plant world. Maybe as we evolved, we sudenly found ourselves with a self re- flective consciousness or choice. Or in other words, having evolved into choice also creates good snd evil and all the rest that goes with it. My guess is man evolved to choice causing good and evil...Kirk...P.S. Or not. Ha ha!!!!

-- Kirk Davis (kirkay@yahoo.com), August 13, 2000.

God did not create what we call evil. But an angel or person can certainly choose to be near God or to distance himself from God. The result of Satan choosing to make himself equal to God resulted in his becoming very distant from God. And we need only to look at our world to see the difference between what is good and therefor from God versus what is devoid of God and full of pain and suffering.

-- lynne atencio (Lynnie70@juno.com), August 13, 2000.

Here are two excellent books that discuss in detail the topics of angels and demons from a biblical perspective: "Angels, God's Secret Agents" by Billy Graham; and "Angels Among Us" by Ron Rhodes. Both books provide much in-depth information that may be helpful.

-- Liz Rhein (merhein@shentel.net), August 13, 2000.

People who want to share their religious views with you almost never want you to share yours with them. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), August 15, 2000.

Boy Vicki! You can say that again (and I hope you do) Ha!....Kirk...

-- Kirk Davis (kirkay@yahoo.com), August 15, 2000.

I know this is not going to answer your question properly. I do know that it will give several folks reason to laugh. Oh well , here goes. Trigger, Some times you can spend to much time thinking about why. If you believe that ANY part of the Bible is true(you say you do), then logically you must accept all of it, as it is the Word of God and either all or none must be true. What I'm trying to say is, some things just are. It's good (for all of us) to read and ponder on the Word. But don't get stuck on philisophical points. I think Joel said it about things will be revealed in due time. Just believe. Obey first, understand later. Some times it's better to keep it simple and have that "child like" faith. I know some folks confuse simple w/ stupid. Not so. The more you examine the Bible, the physical world and yourself, you will see His marvelous hand in everything. It becomes easier to just accept and believe when seen in that light. I'm not a very eloquent writer like some of you, and I wish that I could express myself better at times. I've always needed a couple rewrites to get my thoughts ordered. I always had trouble on essay tests in college. All things will be revealed eventually.

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), August 15, 2000.

My thots: If God is love and love is the highest virtue as St Paul implied then perhaps "Satan" is the fear of love.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), August 16, 2000.

I offer this (found in my little sisters magazine, The Catalyst, in Salt Lake City) without comment.

Dear Dr, Laura, Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding Gods law. I have learned a great deal from you and and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how best to follow them.

When I burn a bull on an altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev.15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states that he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 10:10: it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I dont agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that Gods word is eternal and unchanging. I look forward to hearing your answers.A Listener

-- Jd (belanger@tds.net), August 18, 2000.

I know this is a very old thread but I'm new here. Surely jd has tongue in cheek concerning certain instructions and ordanances that were nailed to "the tree" when grace came in Jesus Christ. I believe that Lucifer became envious and lifted up against God. He wanted the Kingdom to be based more on beauty, power, and speed as opposed to humbleness, patience, and meekness. So Lucifer rebelled against God and won over some of the angels. In that day iniquity was found in him. I find that most Christians are living at least in part in the light of a bygone day. The Jews of 2000 years ago were living in the light of Moses and Abraham went Jesus came on the scene. I believe that Luther's day was the blade. Wesley's was the tassel. Pentecost was the shuck. But now it's grain time. Yes I tried to be tassel in shuck and then grain day so I have "been there and done that". A bride has been called out in this day to be the wife of Christ. So much more could be said-if one "has an ear to hear."

-- Wayne A. Blake (sueblake@onemain.com), March 05, 2002.

You know, if you read that verse right from the scripture, in it's original context, it doesn't say that the evil one was ever an angel, or that he became evil by rebelling against G-d. The person reffered to, is a king that was alive at that time. Read it again, with unbiased eyes. The problem is, thatwe are taught things from an early age, and then we can have the truth right in front of our eyes and not see it, because this verse means 'B' even though it has 'A' written all over it. It's the same thing with JD's post, the verses are taken out of context, misquoted, and misused. There is an entire thread on that subject. Here is that thread

My own opinion is that evil spirits and influences are not necessarily seperate from ourselves, as commonly viewed- the devil made me do it, etc. Rather, we give evil life every time we do an evil deed, and we perpetuate it in that way. The potential for evil came when we were given free will, while we were also given the potential for good. Every day we have that choice- good ? or evil ?.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), March 05, 2002.

I suggest making up your own story,Trigger. Much the same as you see others have done. Whatever makes you feel good. I kinda like the old saying " to know that you do not know...that is thegreatest wisdom."

-- jz (oz49us@yahoo.com), March 05, 2002.

Rebekah,

I believe that the King of Tyre is an allegory of Lucifer. Many things in the scriptures [particularily the Old Testiment prophicies] are hidden from Satan and unbelief but are revealed little by little as we begin to think more like God does. In other words the Bible is like a love letter. There are things oozing out to you as you get on the same wave length and as you know the author better.

These same things are called foolisness by unbelivers. Remember how the religous leaders by and large said Jesus had a devil while a poor woman who had been married 5 times and was with another man who was not her husband -how she received Jesus. The leaders had to give an answer to their congreation so they ascribed evil to Jesus. They could not deny the miracles.

-- Wayne B. IN (sueblake@onemain.com), March 07, 2002.

This is partly in response to the question posed in the thread and partly in response to most of the answers.

I'm sure the mud's going to fly becuase of this but I've got my raincoat on and a pretty thick skin besides, so here goes...

(I do not consider these my own opinions but the teachings of Scripture as I have been taught and have read for myself. If you have a problem with what follows, take it up with God for there lies your problem.)

First of all, the Bible says that God is NOT the author of evil. God is in absolute control over everything. If he wasn't, He would not be GOD. There is nothing that happens that is not allowed by God. Satan was allowed to rebel as part of God's own plan and for His Own Glory.

We are only allowed to choose God because He chooses to work in us through His Holy Spirit. Bible says the He first loved us. Not the other way around we do NOT choose God first. The Holy Spirit first gives us life that we then would choose God. A dead thing can do nothing until God gives it life and then it cannot help but choose to love the Creator that has given it life.

Left to our Own Free Will we will NOT choose God.

Scripture is FILLED with examples of God doing the choosing.

Understanding this doctrine of God has got to be about the most humbling teaching of Scripture. That God in His inscrutable mercy and grace, would send His only Son to pay the price for my rebellion because I could not do one thing towards that end on my own? What have I ever done to deserve such grace (unmerited favor)?

-- LBD (lavenderbluedilly@hotmail.com), March 07, 2002.