Some say that there are only two things in the world: God and fear; love and fear are the only two things. There's only one evil in the world, fear. There's only one good in the world, love. It's sometimes called by other names. It's sometimes called happiness or freedom or peace or joy or God or whatever. But the label doesn't really matter. And there's not a single evil in the world that you cannot trace to fear. Not one.

Ignorance and fear, ignorance caused by fear, that's where all the evil comes from, that's where your violence comes from. The person who is truly nonviolent, who is incapable of violence, is the person who is fearless. It's only when you're afraid that you become angry. Think of the last time you were angry. Go ahead. Think of the last time you were angry and search for the fear behind it. What were you afraid of losing? What were you afraid would be taken from you? That's where the anger comes from. Think of an angry person, maybe someone you're afraid of. Can you see how frightened he or she is? He's really frightened, he really is. She's really frightened or she wouldn't be angry. Ultimately, there are only two things, love and fear.

In this retreat I'd rather leave it like this, unstructured and moving from one thing to another and returning to themes again and again, because that's the way to really grasp what I'm saying. If it doesn't hit you the first time, it might the second time, and what doesn't hit one person might hit another. I've got different themes, but they are all about the same thing. Call it awareness, call it love, call it spirituality or freedom or awakening or whatever. It really is the same thing.

Anthony de Mello, SJ

I am pretty much in agreement with this idea. I know when I am angry it can usually be attributed to fear of losing something I have or not getting something I want. How about you?

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), August 09, 2000

Answers

let =GOD-tell you who you are..& mere-mortal,s 'pale insignificant!! there will alway,s be--un-fulilled=bully,s!!they're sick & want=company!!---case in point->RAtion=hates al-d.=SO??? RATTY didn,t die on a cross for-me!! so who's ratty-compared to - jesus??----0.---my I.D.-is not dependant on little person's problem!!

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), August 09, 2000.

When I am angry, I am usually in a rage about injustice.

-- Oxy (Oxsys@aol.com), August 09, 2000.

Well, ok, I can kick butt over other things too. But fear does not seem to be a factor.

-- Oxy (Oxsys@aol.com), August 09, 2000.

FS:

I have more problems with my placidity causing problems than I have with anger causing problems. I'm not convinced that de Mello [although I love the "ring" of that name] is correct on this one. I have a lot of fears right now. Loss of independence is one, and that's always been very important to me. I'm out of money, and seeking a new path to make money. My latest plan is on Stephen's forum.

Anyway, I'm not convinced that anger is an emotion elicited by fear of losing something or not getting something we want. I lost all my material possessions via divorce and was quite content to have nothing. I lost quite a few rights regarding my children during that one, as well, but it was more important to me to demonstrate to my children that THEY still had a father and a mother who both loved them than to reduce myself to playing "tit for tat."

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), August 09, 2000.

The interesting thing about fear is that it can be such a hard thing to peg.

FS,

That's where I left it with sponge on your last thread. The motivating force for almost all of those characters in the movie was fear, and not beauty. It's usually much easier to see it at work in others, but getting to the root of it within ourselves is sometimes a nasty business.

-- flora (***@__._), August 09, 2000.

Oxy:

What would happen if you did not rage against injustice? What causes that rage? Is it fear of what would result if all good people gave up the fight against misogeny, rascism and the like? Is there not a fear of what our world will become if we do not speak out?

To all:

Can you be afraid and not angry? I am not saying I am in total agreement with DeMello on this one, but he seems to be saying that we cannot be angry without being afraid-does the opposite hold true?

I would suggest, also, that we cannot do our best work when filled with anger-so the best approach to working against injustice is to allow the anger to be what it is, but detach from it when going out to do the work. Much more effective.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), August 09, 2000.

FS:

I see fear as a motivator more than equating it to anger. If one fears something, one must ask oneself "What can I do to resolve this fear I feel?"

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), August 09, 2000.

FS, will you ever address the issue I raised in reference to the act of abortion as being a fear based act?

-- KoFE (your@town.USA), August 09, 2000.

KOFE:

I have purposely avoided this issue as I refuse to get involved in any thread having to do with it. Call it a cop-out, call it whatever you like, but I see nothing being accomplished in the heated debate over abortion-I have seen no one change their mind.

If you were to know my feelings, I am sure you would disagree. There is no debating the topic for me-I feel the way I do and no one-NO ONE- can change my mind on it. I do not see the issue through the lens of religion, and you do. There is no common ground on which to debate. I would ask that you refrain from turning this thread into another debate on this, to me, worn out topic. Should you chose to do so, so be it. This is a free board. But I will not respond to you, not because I have any animosity toward you, but because I will not be a party to yet another debate on this issue.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), August 09, 2000.

FS, you said,

-I feel the way I do and no one-NO ONE- can change my mind on it.

Does that include yourself? Note that I'm NOT trying to reroute the thread to abortion, but isn't refusing to be *willing* to change your mind contrary to "growth"?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), August 09, 2000.

I'm not gonna hound you on this, but each time you post some more high-brow selective sanitized spirituality, I am reminded of the snide comment you made on another post about the subject.

I fail to see how you reconcile the two, but I'm mystified by other peoples philosophy and behavior often anyway. BTW, I don't know where you got the idea that I practice some kind of religion.

-- KoFE (your@town.USA), August 09, 2000.

My experiences with fear have always turned out to be "control issues". For example, I used to have an extreme fear of flying (and we're not just talking "white-knuckles" either; I was absolutely terrified to the point where my heart rate was up well over 200 -- not a good thing). And this is where what Anita said about "fear" being a motivator came into play for me: I had to define the source of the fear. I found that it was due to the lack of control I felt in an airplane. After all, I'm putting my LIFE into the hands of a complete stranger. Didn't matter that said "complete stranger" had no desire whatsoever to kill him/herself; all that mattered was that I had to TRUST (relinquish control to) someone I didn't know.

As to anger, well, these days I lean more towards what Oxy was saying; I mostly feel anger at unjust situations. I really haven't examined those events very closely, but on the surface, I don't see fear being a factor; at least, not a major factor.

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), August 09, 2000.

FS, correct me if I'm wrong but I translate this into "all negative emotions reduce to fear". Meaning that hate, rage, anger, envy, and others. One can have fear without having one of these emotions but one cannot have one of these emotions without having fear. And further, this fear leads to violence. Thus we eliminate the fear in some way and we ultimately eliminate the negative emotions and the violence. Not sure I completely agree for I do see that we can have negative feelings without having fear. For example, where does road rage come from? Is it a fear of control? I don't think so. It may be a part of revenge but how does that reduce to fear? Something to ponder.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), August 09, 2000.

"Ignorance and fear, ignorance caused by fear, that's where all the evil comes from, that's where your violence comes from."

I don't know FS; a little facile for me. Sounds like all that is needed to eliminate evil is for everyone to have a good attitude adjustment from a $100/hr psychotherapist.

Do you think sociopathic murderers are driven by fear? What about megalomaniac genocidal dictators? What about political terrorists who argue that the End justifies the Means. The only fear I see in such "people" is the fear of getting caught; the fear of justice.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), August 09, 2000.

Driscol, I dont hate you for I dont even know you. I dont *hate* anyone, period. What disgusts me is what you ARE: A phony, a hypocrite, a scam artist, and a person that brings disrespect to all good Christians. One of the great things about this forum is that lowlifes like you are allowed to say whatever YOU please and others can comment on that however THEY please. The pornography and over-the- edge obscenity is distasteful, but you are in a special class by yourself. That being said, I have never called for your blasphemous, idiotic babbling to be silenced. And you should expect me to remind you that I know what you are.

Now, as you DO KNOW so well, there ARE some folks that REALLY HATE you and YOU know WHY. You should focus on them and not my harmless words on an Internet forum.

This will be the last time that I address you here. I find myself yearning for a hot shower whenever I get this close to you and Ive said way too much already. Enjoy whatever life you have and may true justice visit you soon.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), August 09, 2000.

I am cryptic but I see true fear and true love as a human response to a lack of rational, reliable information.

Best wishes,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), August 09, 2000.

Frank:

I am not sure what your motive is, but you are setting up a straw man by bringing up the idea of "growth". Taking me to task for having a fixed opinion on something is somewhat hypocritical-you are on record as a person who will never believe in astrology. Astrology is an important part of my spiritual practice. It is a craft through which I have been able to help others, even heal others. I stood by the sidelines in your last debate with Luna, and I am not bringing it up to debate it again. The reason I mention it is your fixed position on this is no different than my fixed position on abortion.

There seem to be several folks around here who think I claim to be some kind of mystic or a saint-My response to that, to qoute my friend DeMello is "I'm an ass, you're an ass". I will not reach perfection in this lifetime. I am sure of that. So to say that having a fixed position on abortion is contrary to growth is moot-My open- mindedness, if you want to call it that, is the best it can be for today. Even though you may not have intended it, it seems you wanted to ridicule me, by somehow showing me as a hypocrite. Cin tried to do the same thing. As far as I can remember, I have not done this to you, and have not questioned your integrity personally, as you appear to be doing.

Because I do not believe what you believe does not make me less moral; I have never made any claims in any of my threads to have the secrets to life, the holy grail of knowledge. I write to provoke thought, to receive input and to give input. There are others, and I am not naming names, who proclaim themselves as the voice of God, and who promulgate their belief system as the ONE truth. I have often said here that today's truth could be tomorrow's bullshit. So where anybody came to the conclusion that I think of myself as the arbiter of truth is beyond me.

KOFE:

Please post my snide remark for all to see again. As I said to Cin last week, I have never claimed to be perfect, or 100% righteous. If I am wrong about you and religion I apologize and stand corrected. But whatever your belief system may be, you show yourself in poor light to attack mine as "High brow selective sanitized spirituality".

Your spiritual hubris shines through in that wonderful statement. I feel no need to defend mine; all I can say is that I have harmed no one today, I have risen from the ashes of addiction and am no longer a drain on society. I help other addicts and alcoholics find new lives. I go to work every day and have risen through the ranks of my company as a valuable member of the team. My wife adores me and my friends love me-they all know I can be counted on to be responsible and to do the right thing. I am part of, and an originator of a prayer group that is taking part in the healing process of at least 6 people at this time. I am happy with my life, and the people in my life are happy with me.

If this is the result of "High brow selective sanitized spirituality" than you know what, I think this is just the spirituality for me. The true test of a belief system is if it works-and what I mean "work" is that the result of it is an individual who is a productive member of society who, though not mistake free, tries their damndest to do the right thing as often as possible.

So please, post my comment. My response will probably be-oh well I was angry, acted accordingly, and that was that.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), August 09, 2000.

FS, you said,

I am not sure what your motive is, but you are setting up a straw man by bringing up the idea of "growth". Taking me to task for having a fixed opinion on something is somewhat hypocritical-you are on record as a person who will never believe in astrology.

The second part, the "astrology" part is not true. I don't believe in "astrology" because it's NOT SCIENTIFIC. There's no claim of objective proof it works that's in any way verifiable. If you can PROVE it works in the same way that I can prove pure water will boil at 100 degrees C (at STP) then I'll jump on the "astrology" bandwagon. I'm not dead set against CHANGE if proven wrong, per se.

The reason I mention it is your fixed position on this is no different than my fixed position on abortion.

Based on the above, I disagree. I'm a pragmatist. I'm willing to believe in what's PROVEN to be true. When "astrology" is proven to work, I'll believe. That to me is different than REFUSING to change my belief in spite of any evidence presented.

Even though you may not have intended it, it seems you wanted to ridicule me, by somehow showing me as a hypocrite.

FS, actually I was trying to give some "constructive criticism" and nudge you toward what (I think) is the right way to go (as to being at least somewhat open-minded to change). Believe me, I was in NO WAY trying to ridicule you. Maybe there were just too many posts directed your way at once, but please try and reread my earlier post in a different mindset. What you read was not what I intended.

I have often said here that today's truth could be tomorrow's bullshit.

Yes

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), August 09, 2000.

Frank:

If you truly want proof, let me do your chart. I have no reason to prove my prowess in astrology, and no reason to lie about its accuracy and the manner in which it has served me and others. I have yet to charge for my service, and I am not on this board looking for business so my motive is pure. I have verified astrology from years of working with it-and I was a nerdy, scientifically oriented kid until I discovered that science as we know it did not havbe all the answers.

As far as my position on abortion, there is no way to "prove" anything to me on that, either. What is there to prove. If you have a certain belief system you are against it-if you have mine, you are not.

Forgive me if I misread your intentions; it did seem that you were trying to back my into an ideological corner-that is why I stated that I was not sure of your intent. I will not fault you for trying to steer me to what you think is right; but I will say again you are speaking to a rock if you are trying to persuade me.

The point at which "life" begins has been debated since the dawn of time-and will be debated until the end of time. But I do not see a way of scientifically proving it. Is there a soul? If so, when does it enter the body? and more important-How can you prove when it enters the body? Religious texts do not count-I want scientific proof.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), August 09, 2000.

I disagree with de Mello, and agree with Socrates who said, "There is only one good knowledge, and one evil, ignorance. "

For instance there are people I love dearly, but they sometimes make me very angry, and it has nothing to do with fear of losing them.

Also, I'm not a fearful person, but I'm in agreement with Patricia and Oxy on this one. I the think fear of loss of control is a biggie. I truly believe that most of my preparations for Y2K were based on fear and uncertainty more than anything else, and I've been mortified over the FUD, much more than I have the loss of money, time and energy.

FS, you asked, "Can you be afraid and not angry?" Definitely yes. I have one great fear that I am totally incapable of overcoming, and there is no anger involved--I am terrified of height.

But I do get angry about injustice, and I think more people should get angry about injustice--especially concerning racism, religion, child and animal abuse and ageism. Fear is involved here, for when I see injustice happening to others, I can also see that if we don't protest injustice we may end up being the victim as well.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), August 10, 2000.

FS,

Well, I've put you into a corner, I guess. I'm too paranoid to give out my birthdate, etc. on the Net, so you really can't prove your case. But thanks for the offer. I guess the "proof" of it will have to wait until we meet someday, in this lifetime or the next.

On abortion, I wasn't trying to change your view at all, but merely suggesting you be *open to change* should different information come your way. That to me is the important thing.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), August 10, 2000.

I'm scared as Hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!

-- (PeterFinch@Network.themovie), August 12, 2000.