Is the Catholic Church, the Church of the New Testament?greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread |
This was taken from a different thread and was started based on the question is the Catholic church the church of the New Testament.
Thanks for the response. I will admit that I'm wrong if you can show it to me in the Bible and the Bible only. Not the Catechism because the two are not in agreement with one another. Either the Catechism is right. Or the Bible is right.
First of all, the church of Christ is not a denomination. The church started on the day of Pentecost 33 A.D. in Jeruselem (Acts chapters 1 and 2) and not Rome. Jesus Christ is our founder and not Boniface III. Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith the one true faith which is the Bible.
I will at admit that the Catholic Church was the first denomination that started in 606 A.D. in Rome by Boniface III when it was known as the Roman Catholic Church. The bible prophesied that the church will start in Jerusalem, not Rome.
Isaiah 2:2-3 "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hill; and all nations shall flow unto IT. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from JERUSALEM."
Christ said that he will build his church, not the Roman Catholic church (Matthew 16:18). Christ is the head of his church and not the Pope (Ephesians 5:23-24), (Ephesians 1:22-23), (Colossians 1:18).
The church of Christ worships God and not Mary. The bible does not tell us to worship Mary. It tells us to worship God.
John 4:23-24 "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit (people who have obeyed the Gospel and have received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which was promised in Acts 2:38) and in truth (according to God's word)."
Peter was not the first pope. Now Peter was an elder (or bishop or pastor) but he was not head of the church. Lets look at Matthew 16:18.
Matthew 16:18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter (Petros), and upon this rock (petras) I will build MY church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
In the previous verses Christ asked who did men say he was. Some thought that he was a prophet or one of the prophets Elias or Jeremias or John the Baptist. Peter proclaims that Jesus is the Christ. Christ did not build the church on Peter (Petros), but he built it based on the confession that Peter made in which he was referring to the "rock" (petras) and that Jesus is the Son of the Living God...the Christ. Jesus further said that he would give Peter the keys to the kingdom (Matthew 16:19).
Then we find in Acts that Peter opened the doors to the kingdom by preaching the first gospel sermon (Acts 2:14-38). This is what Christ was refeffing to when he gave Peter the keys to heaven. Any one who obeys the gospel according to Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 8:26-39, shall be saved. Notice in the scriptures above that the individual most believe, repent, confess, and be baptized in order to be saved. Infants can't believe, nor confess Jesus. This practice is a doctrine of man and is not in harmony with the scriptures. Its not taught in the Bible and it should not be taught to those who are lost. If it is taught, and those who witness it and believe it are still lost.
I'm coming to you in love. I know that Catholics have been taught a certain way for centuries. But these teachings are man made doctrines which are not the will of God.
Matthew 23:8-9 "But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, Christ; and ALL ye are BRETHREN. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."
We are all brethren and should not be called anything more (Reverend, Father, Rabbi, Pope, etc.).
Paul wrote to the Corinthians not to think of any man above that which is written.
1 Corinthians 4:6-7 "...that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written; that no one of you be puffed up one against another..."
There should not be a Pope. The organization of the church can be found in the bible. There is Christ (the head) followed by elders, deacons, ministers or evangelists, teachers, helpers and members. All working together to edify the body (church) of Christ (Ephesians 4:11- 12).
I just want the Catholics to see the truth, so that they obey it according to the scriptures. Now will you admit that you could be wrong? Will you submit yourself to the will of God and not man? Please do.
Galatians 1:10 "For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ."
-- Derrick Macon (derrickmacon@hotmail.com), August 06, 2000.
Jmj
Whoa, Derrick! Hold your horses, man!
I read only the first paragraph of your message and then stopped. When we discuss matters of this kind, it is necessary to take one thing at a time.
It is easy for you to list fifteen or twenty objections (each one in full or partial error) in fifteen or twenty short sentences. But we Catholics here may have to write fifteen or twenty sentences just to refute ONE of your objections. Furthermore, with God's help, you will realize, after one or more refutations, that none of your objections will stand up to close scrutiny, and you can abandon the remainder. And so, let us take one thing at a time.
Now after you read this answer of mine, please go to the "post a new question" page [http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-post-new.tcl?topic=Catholic] and start a new thread with your SINGLE strongest objection to the Catholic faith. We are currently corresponding in a Catholic/Mormon thread, which is not appropriate for our conversation.
And, before you start the new thread, I need to say this: 1. We will place NO restriction on the kinds of objections or argumentation you will be making, except that it be respectful and not insulting. 2. We can accept NO restriction from you that our replies be limited to quoting from the Bible, unless you can first prove that the Bible itself requires this. In other words, if "sola scriptura" is your principle (i.e., that the "Bible alone" is the source of religious truth), then you must prove that that principle is found in the Bible. [Hint: You cannot find it there, so we will not be able to follow that principle. Moreover, NO Christians spoke of, much less followed, that principle for the first 1500 years of Christendom, because it is a modern "tradition of (Protestant) men." And finally, that principle has led to the splintering of Protestantism into over 20,000 denominations, to one of which you belong. Even your "Church(es) of Christ," founded in the 1800s, has splintered into several denominations -- for example, those that allow musical instruments in church and those that do not.]
OK, new friend Derrick, please do not respond here, but start a new thread. And thanks for returning. That was courageous of you. The Holy Spirit is working in your life. John
-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), August 07, 2000.
-- Derrick Macon (derrickmacon@hotmail.com), August 07, 2000
Jim, Can I ask you a question? How does the Catholic religion relate to what is written in the Bible? Where is the pope in the Bible? Where does it say we should worship Mary in the Bible? Where is infant baptism in the Bible? The Bible says that "all scriptures are inspired by God and that its profitable for doctrine, correction, reproof, and instruction in righteousness." Catholicism is not according to God's plan. In the book of Hebrews it says that we are "all priests". We have a mediator in Christ to the Father. A lot of your practices are Old Testament beliefs and beliefs that has been generated by men of your faith. If your religion is not in agreement with the Bible then either the Catechism is right, or the Bible is right.You claim that the church of Christ has denominations, it does. Some incorprate instrumental music. The 1st century church did not worship with instrumental music. The East Orthodox church and The Roman Catholic church had a problem with this. The Catholic church is a denomination. The church of Christ was started on the day of Pentecost in Jerusalem. Men decided to go back to "search the scriptures because they were fed up with all of the religious denominations in which was started by your faith. The church of Christ has always been around because its found in the Word of God. The word of God has stood the test of times and will stay forever. So the church has always been since it was established but it was man that left the word of God. So now you have what you call Protestant. You claim that any religious body that is not Catholic is protestant. Well, if it wasn't for the Catholic church, we would not have this problem, since the Catholic church was the first denomination. Men saw the practices and beliefs for what they were and decided to leave Catholicism. The truth is in the word of God, not the Catechism. Not the pope, and not the "Virgin" Mary. Catholics never want to come to the knowledge of the truth. God said that he would those who don't obey the gospel strong delusion to the point that you would believe it. I don't have my bible in front of me but when I do, I will be glad to give you the references.
Jim, Can you prove from the Bible what I said earlier is the truth? Or am I lying. Your beliefs are not in harmony with the scriptures. So unless you can prove it from the Bible, I can't be convinced otherwise. We both agree that the Bible is from God, right? So either God is confusing us, or someone is lying. We do know that the bible came before the Catholic religion and the Catechism. Thank you. Please answer the statements that were made at the beginning. I would appreciate that. Help me understand where you are coming from. I don't see it.
-- Derrick (derrickmacon@hotmail.com), August 07, 2000.
Sorry for calling you Jim. I meant John. I'm pasting the previous discussion with the correct name. Oops! Sorry :-)John, Can I ask you a question? How does the Catholic religion relate to what is written in the Bible? Where is the pope in the Bible? Where does it say we should worship Mary in the Bible? Where is infant baptism in the Bible? The Bible says that "all scriptures are inspired by God and that its profitable for doctrine, correction, reproof, and instruction in righteousness." Catholicism is not according to God's plan. In the book of Hebrews it says that we are "all priests". We have a mediator in Christ to the Father. A lot of your practices are Old Testament beliefs and beliefs that has been generated by men of your faith. If your religion is not in agreement with the Bible then either the Catechism is right, or the Bible is right.
You claim that the church of Christ has denominations, it does. Some incorprate instrumental music. The 1st century church did not worship with instrumental music. The East Orthodox church and The Roman Catholic church had a problem with this. The Catholic church is a denomination. The church of Christ was started on the day of Pentecost in Jerusalem. Men decided to go back to "search the scriptures because they were fed up with all of the religious denominations in which was started by your faith. The church of Christ has always been around because its found in the Word of God. The word of God has stood the test of times and will stay forever. So the church has always been since it was established but it was man that left the word of God. So now you have what you call Protestant. You claim that any religious body that is not Catholic is protestant. Well, if it wasn't for the Catholic church, we would not have this problem, since the Catholic church was the first denomination. Men saw the practices and beliefs for what they were and decided to leave Catholicism. The truth is in the word of God, not the Catechism. Not the pope, and not the "Virgin" Mary. Catholics never want to come to the knowledge of the truth. God said that he would those who don't obey the gospel strong delusion to the point that you would believe it. I don't have my bible in front of me but when I do, I will be glad to give you the references.
John, Can you prove from the Bible what I said earlier is the truth? Or am I lying. Your beliefs are not in harmony with the scriptures. So unless you can prove it from the Bible, I can't be convinced otherwise. We both agree that the Bible is from God, right? So either God is confusing us, or someone is lying. We do know that the bible came before the Catholic religion and the Catechism. Thank you. Please answer the statements that were made at the beginning. I would appreciate that. Help me understand where you are coming from. I don't see it.
-- Derrick (derrickmacon@hotmail.com), August 07, 2000.
Hi, Derrick.
I will try to co-operate with you in the future, if you will honor the request I made of you -- which I don't think is a difficult or unreasonable one.
Over on the other thread, I wrote the following to you (and you copied it above):
"Now ... please go to the 'post a new question' page .. and start a new thread with your SINGLE strongest objection to the Catholic faith."
The reasonable expectation was for us to see one sentence, or perhaps a paragraph, with your single strongest objection. But, I was dumbfounded when, instead of this, I found the following up above:
1. Your entire, long, original post, with its many objections.
2. My response.
3. Your new, long essay -- over 500 words -- asking various questions, attacking Catholicism, defending the Church(es) of Christ, and so forth.
Perhaps other Catholics who visit this board will wish to respond to your many, many topics on this thread. I hope they won't, but they have the right to do so. But I simply cannot do so, because my time is very limited and I would need hours to respond to all your thoughts. That is why I renew this request: Please go to the 'post a new question' page .. and start a new thread with your SINGLE strongest objection to the Catholic faith.
If you must refuse to do that, then I will simply leave you with two notes and wish you "godspeed." I will not be returning to this thread.
Note 1. Your first question this time was, "How does the Catholic religion relate to what is written in the Bible?"
Derrick, the Catholic Church treasures the Bible as much as, if not more than, any other Christians. Why?
___a. Because the earliest Catholics wrote the New Testament (under the Holy Spirit's inspiration)...
___b. Because Catholic leaders (successors of the apostles) assembled the Bible's varied books under one cover around the year 400 -- declaring which ancient books were inspired and which were not. If not for this action, you would not know if, for example, "Romans" was inspired or not.
___c. Because Catholic monks for centuries painstakingly hand-copied the inspired texts, without which sacrifice you would not have any scriptures at all to read today. Yes, if not for Catholics, you would have no scriptures at all to misinterpret against Catholics!
Note 2. Several decades ago, there was a young "Church of Christ" member like yourself, Derrick. His name was Benjamin Luther, and he was a descendant of the famous Luthers of Germany. Through careful examination of Church history and scripture, he was blessed to become, not just a Catholic, but a Catholic priest. Father Luther used to receive and answer huge numbers of questions about the Catholic faith in a newspaper. Now he publishes a newsletter called "Bartimaeus." (Please write to him, Derrick, at St. John's Church, 6705 Old 45, Paducah, KY 42003). I used to read his newspaper answers, but recently found out about the newsletter at an interesting Internet site [http://www.catholichost.com/ccc/browse.html]. I encourage EVERYONE to go there, where we can all read autobiographical sketches of Church-of-Christ members who have become Catholic, learn how better to defend our faith, etc..
May God bless us all.
-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), August 07, 2000.
As an ex-practicing Catholic, I've tried to seach the bible to find the answers of the true religion. I've decided that the true religion was not the same of the man who kisses the Koran and embraces other religions with anti-Christian setiment, that carries a staff with a disfigured portrayal of the Lord, and does nothing to stop child abuse in his own church. There are many quotes in the bible that disprove of the way that Catholics practice. When I asked Priests and CCD teachers about them they would give me an answer I know and they knew would be wrong. The biggest Bible-beaters of them all in the church know the word of god the least.Looking at the Verses, especially one called False Asceticism (1 Timothy 4).This passage strictly forbids religions that don't permit marriage between certain people and the abstinince of any food for any reason, especially in God's name. How can Catholosism be the right religion? The chapter is also an avid description of what the false religion will be like in the end times (very familiar to today.....)
-- W.C. Spagnuolo (billz986@aol.com), June 10, 2003.
Dear W.C.,How typical of a practitioner of manmade religion to misquote the Bible, taking passages out of context, and trying to twist them into some sort of apparent agreement with your modern traditions of men. At least most misinterpreters of scripture stop short of adding words to the text, but I see even that tactic is fair game for you.
You claim that 1 Tim 4 "strictly forbids religions that don't permit marriage between certain people". No, it does not. The phrase "between certain people" does not appear in the text. YOU conveniently added it, not unlike your founder who added the word "alone" after the word "faith" in the divinely-inspired text, thereby reducing the inspired Word of God to a hybrid of God's Word and his own. The text you misquoted is a condemnation of herectical sects which forbad marriage TOTALLY, denying that it was a godly sacrament, and condemning it as a moral evil, because marital intimacy involves the flesh, and they denounced the flesh itself as being intrinsically evil. Therefore this text has absolutely nothing to do with priestly celibacy or any teaching of God's Church. I suggest you read 1 Corinthians 7, where Paul recommends that ministers of the Church remain unmarried, explains why, and describes his own unmarried state as a gift from God.
You also claim that 1 Tim 4 strictly forbids religions that require "abstinence of any food for any reason, especially in God's name". No, it does not. The word "any" does not appear in the biblical text at all. You have inserted it twice, in an attempt to rewrite God's Word according to your own false doctrines. Here is what the Holy Bible actually has to say about abstaining from food ...
"And after He had FASTED forty days and forty nights, He then became hungry" (Matthew 4:2)
"Whenever you FAST, do not put on a gloomy face as the hypocrites do, but you, when you FAST, anoint your head and wash your face so that your FASTING will not be noticed by men, but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will REWARD YOU" (Matt 6:16-18)
"But this kind [of evil spirit] does not go out except by prayer and FASTING" (Matthew 17:21)
"While they were ministering to the Lord and FASTING, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them. Then, when they had FASTED and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. (Acts 13:2-3)
"When they had appointed elders for them in every church, having prayed with FASTING, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed. (Acts 14:23)
Sounds to me like the Church of Jesus Christ placed great emphasis on abstaining from food; and no wonder since Jesus Himself said that it was a source of great spiritual power! (Matt 17:21). By what authority do YOU reject this portion of God's Holy Word??
If you have been "searching the Bible for the truth" as you claim, how did you manage to miss all this?? The simple fact is, there cannot be anything in the Bible that conflicts with Catholic teaching, because the Catholic Church alone compiled the Bible, making every decision about which texts should be included and which should not. Really now - do you think they would have included texts which contradicted their own teaching?? Where the conflict lies is between the genuine meaning of the scriptural texts and your own inaccurate, unapproved, unauthoritative, personal guesses concerning these Catholic writings. Please note that your interpretations contradict not only those of the true and original Christian Church, but also those of many other manmade churches. The degree of conflict among Protestant beliefs alone stands as clear evidence that they cannot be true to the Bible, for truth cannot contradict truth.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 10, 2003.
A great rebuttal, Paul!
Let me say our visitor, WCS is truly welcome; as long as he refrains from arguing from the bible. If he stayys, let him give us good reasoning, not bad interpretations. The devil quoted scripture for his own evil intents. I think he's inspired some things WCS says to us now. Look:''I've decided that the true religion was not the same of the man who kisses the Koran and embraces other religions with anti-Christian setiment, that carries a staff with a disfigured portrayal of the Lord, and does nothing to stop child abuse in his own church.''
In his very first two words, ''I've decided'', our friend wants it clear: He decides; not God. Not Christ or the apostles.
Why??? He reads. The old story, read and become full of yourself, PROUD of reading!
As for the evil and slanted remarks about the Pope; why would a follower of Jesus christ react with such venom and say the most unjust things? ''Disfigured,'' --''does nothing to stop child abuse'' or just his expression of disgust? Has he seen what the Pope did? NO; but he imagines some things. Does WCS know how to stop child abuse? I wonder what he would do, if he were the Pope?
He might say, pray. We shall pray for God's mercy and grace; and bring the Church together, and condemn the sins of bad priests.
Exactly the things John Paul II is doing today.
But our friend says this is his clue that we aren't the True Church.
He doesn't care where the true Church may be. But he knows which one he hates. A sign of LOVE? Christ commanded the Church: Love one another as I have loved you.'' Doesn't WC care what Jesus commanded?
Jesus never commanded me to read a Bible at all; much less to read it so I could learn to hate the Church. WC, let me ask you: ''Where is Jesus seen saying, ''Blessed are the Bible students,''--?
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 11, 2003.
I respect what the fellow readers of the past paragraph I wrote responded with. I know that it looks like I inserted some of those parts into the quote, which is true for the New American Bible of catholics in the U.S. In alot of the Protestant bibles, (unabridged through time) These words do appear. If you read all of The first letter to Timothy, you see that God says there is only one mediator between him and the human race, Jesus. How can the Pope then be the Vicar of God? Also, how come the day of Worship changed from Saturday to Sunday, there is no reason for that to happen. Even before Jesus'ss death, his Apostles celebrated the Sabath day on Saturday, not Sunday. About the disfigured Jesus on the staff, he does carry that. That wasn't meant to be disrepectful. He also has an upside down cross in back of him at some of his public apperances, a common symbol of Satanism. This wasn't to be disrespectful and I respect your opinion.
-- W.C. Spagnuolo (billz986@aol.com), June 11, 2003.
Dear W.C.,You say, "I know that it looks like I inserted some of those parts into the quote, which is true for the New American Bible of catholics in the U.S. In a lot of the Protestant bibles, (unabridged through time) these words do appear."
A: I am always willing to learn. Show me! I have access to many different Bibles, both here at home and on line. Please direct me to a translation in which 1 Tim 4 states that not allowing marriage "to certain people" is forbidden - and please, a translation where I can read that "abstaining from any food for any reason" is forbidden. Can scripture contradict itself? I already gave you multiple passages which describe the early Christian practice of abstaining from food for spiritual reasons. Can the Word of God condemn an act which the Son of God Himself did for 40 days, and which His own apostles did when they were specifically seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit? Still, if you direct me to those translations, I'll be glad to read them.
"If you read all of The first letter to Timothy, you see that God says there is only one mediator between him and the human race, Jesus. How can the Pope then be the Vicar of God?"
A: Your question is meaningless, since the Pope is not a mediator between God and the human race. You apparently don't understand the meaning of "mediator". Few Protestants do. A mediator is a third party who intervenes to facilitate the repair of a broken relationship between two other parties. As in a dispute between labor and management. As in the relationship between God and the human race, which was broken by the sin of Adam and Eve, and which Jesus Christ repaired by His death and Resurrection. Therefore Jesus is the only mediator between God and man. A Vicar is an officially appointed representative of a higher authority, who exercises the authority of that higher power during his physical absence. The "chief steward" held the position of "vicar" in a household, and made decisions for the master of the house, by the master's own authority, while he was away. The symbol of the chief steward's position and the delegated authority he exercised was the keys to the household, which were entrusted to him and him alone. Sound familiar?
"Also, how come the day of Worship changed from Saturday to Sunday, there is no reason for that to happen."
A: The day of worship did not "change". Before the founding of the Christian Church, there was NO Christian day of worship. There was a Jewish day of worship, and that Jewish day of worship remains unchanged to the present day. Therefore nothing "changed". Rather, a Christian day of worship was INSTITUTED at the same time the Christian Church itself was instituted. There is no reason to celebrate the day of the victory of the Son of God over death and sin, one of the two greatest events in the history of the human race, and specifically the history of our salvation???? What happened on Saturday that Christians should commemorate? Give me one good reason why Christians should observe a non-Christian (Jewish) day of worship?? There is no reason to do so, unless you also observe all of the tenets of the Mosaic Law - in which case you are a Jew, not a Christian. In any case, Christians worshipped on Sunday from the very beginning, as the Bible clearly states (Acts 20:7).
"Even before Jesus's death, his Apostles celebrated the Sabbath day on Saturday, not Sunday"
A: Yes, they did, since the Resurrection had not yet occurred, nor had Pentecost, the birthday of the Catholic Church. They also went to synogogue. Do you? They also celebrated Passover. Do you? Once the Resurrection and Pentecost had occurred, thereafter they met for CHRISTIAN worship, on Sunday, as the above passage indicates.
"About the disfigured Jesus on the staff, he does carry that."
A: There are several different papal staffs which a Pope can use. The head of the staff which this Pope has elected to use includes the image of the crucified Lord, whose humble servant the Pope is. The image is not "disfigured". It is simply "stylized", something done by the artist who designed it, not by the Pope himself. It curves forward a bit, to suggest the normal curvature of a crozier, or "shepherd's staff". The other staffs curve forward much more so, but do not bear the image of the Lord. The staff Pope John Paul II carries incorporates both designs in one image. Honestly, some people just need something to worry about!
"He also has an upside down cross in back of him at some of his public apperances, a common symbol of Satanism."
A: Yeah, right, the Vicar of the Our Lord and Savior carries satanic images around with him. Let's not be ridiculous! I have never seen such an image accompanying the Pope anywhere. However, if such an image were actually present, it's symbolism is immediately obvious to anyone familiar with early Christian history. The Pope holds the office of Saint Peter, and the upside down cross is a symbol of that great saint. Jesus prophecied that Peter would die by crucifixion. When the time came, Peter requested that he be crucified upside down, since he considered himself unworthy to die in the same manner as his Lord and Savior. Hence the symbolism.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 11, 2003.
ok Derrick,I will say that this quote:
"I will admit that the Catholic Church was the first denomination that started in 606 A.D. in Rome by Boniface III when it was known as the Roman Catholic Church. The bible prophesied that the church will start in Jerusalem, not Rome."
is the single most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my life! You, my misguided friend, are certainly among the countless millions of Protestants who have no clue of your heritage.
The first thing, you said Boniface III started it all. Just look at his name (the THIRD). If he is the Third, that means there were AT LEAST two before him. So already your statement is totally absurd.
But, that is not my response. I will tell you that you need some serious study in Church History. For your convenience, we will go back FROM 606 AD, and see where it takes us. First we have Augustine around 400 AD, who mentions the Authority of the Holy Catholic Church (the same as we know it today), because he is commenting on how the Scriptures were canonized in 393 and 397 AD by the Synods of Hippo and Cathage. These were headed by Bishops and the Pope. You only believe the infallibilty of Scriptures because they decreed it so( they also decreed the Deuterocanonical as well, so not additionally acknowledging them is a grave violation of Rev. 22 :18 worthy of condemnation). Ok, so we see that the Catholic Church was in existence AT LEAST by 400 AD. Let's go further:
We can trace it further back to Ignatius of Antioch, an ordained Bishop by the apostle Peter himself in Rome. This is c. 107 AD, when he wrote his 7 epistles on his way to execution on a ship. He not only mentions submitting to the authority of the bishop, but also says "just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church". He also mentions "the Eucharist, which is the selfsame body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ". That's some hard evidence, consdering he is the FIRST generation right after the Apostles. Derrick, Ignatius was ordained by Peter, and knew both Peter and Paul personally. If he was wrong, then the Christians would have reprimanded him.
Just look at history and see where it leads you. The One, Holy, Catholic, and APOSTOLIC Church has no human founder in 606 AD, but only Jesus Christ and the Apostles. I'll pray for you
-- Andrew Staupe (stau0085@umn.edu), April 17, 2004.