Fols; I am bring this posting up to the top and restarting the thread. Simply because it has gotten so long on the orginal:

I wish to state first. That I am pro choice. But that comes at a bitter cost to me personally. My second son was married to lady, who, with is agreement. Aborted not one; but two fetuses. My grand children! I did not know of their hoice untill many months later.

My first son's wife cannot have children. My second kills them, my youngest has as yet to show an intert in marriage. Perhaps this is my punishment for having believed that pro-choice was the woman's right.

But how ever, or what ever the reason. Now I will be dead before I am a grand father. It gives one pause to think, you know. If they didn't want to raise them, why didn't they let me raise them? I had so wanted to see just one child to carry my name after I am gone....

The subject should be re-thought. There are way too many questions not answeared, not for me, not for any one who loves children.

"As for me...I shall finish the Game"!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Shakey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-- Shakey (in_a_bunker@forty.feet), August 03, 2000

Answers

I'm sorry you don't get to be a grandfather, but the fact is that it is not your choice, it is the choice of your children. My mother wanted to raise a future lawyer, but instead she got two acountants and a musician. If she wanted to be a lawyer so bad why didn't she go to law school?

Your children are their own people with their own dreams and their own desires. If you can't get used to that fact I suggest you go see a psychiatrist.

-- Choice (choice@mylife.not.yours), August 03, 2000.

Hey Shakey-

Your first son, if he and his wife desire to have children, can always adopt. No one has to remain childless if they're willing to open their hearts a little. My fiancee and I are both capable of having children, but there are so many unwanted children that we've decided to adopt before we try to have biological children.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejuglewithouta.net), August 03, 2000.

**Your children are their own people with their own dreams and their own desires. If you can't get used to that fact I suggest you go see a psychiatrist.**

Shame on you, you jerk. How very rude.

Shakey, I am very sorry to hear of your heartbreak. But don't give up hope, or stop praying. It's not too late. And little ones have a way of surprising you when you least expect them. =o)

-- cin (cin@cinn.cin), August 03, 2000.

Cin, Just because you feel that way about kids doesn't mean everyone feels that way or must feel that way. People make their own choices on whether or not to have kids and no parent can dictate that he must become a grandparent. Shakey has to accept the choices of his children whether he likes them or not. He's welcome to complain but if it goes beyond complaining then he needs to seek professional help.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), August 03, 2000.

And little ones have a way of surprising you when you least expect them. =o)

Didn't his second wife already get rid of two little surprises already?

-- Choice (choice@mylife.not.yours), August 03, 2000.

yea well some people consider it a blessing; a gift from God.

-- cin (cin@cinn.cin), August 03, 2000.

yea well some people consider it a blessing; a gift from God.

And others don't. What's your point?

-- Choice (choice@mylife.not.yours), August 03, 2000.

well it's obviously over YOUR head

-- cin (cin@cinn.cin), August 03, 2000.

So Cin, are you saying that if one person considers something a blessing then everyone else should change their opinions and actions accordingly?

You know some people consider illness to be a test of faith and a blessing from God. Are you willing to skip a trip to the doctor the next time you get sick?

Beethoven considered the loss of his hearing a blessing from God because it gave him the time to compose his best works free of outside distractions. Does this mean we should avoid treating people who are going deaf?

-- Choice (choice@mylife.not.yours), August 03, 2000.

Isn't the "carry on my name" excuse the one that causes the abortion or extermination of females today in China? If son #2 aborted only female descendants, would you feel differently, Shakey?

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), August 03, 2000.

Shakey, I'm glad to see you online, again. Do you have an "Adopt a grandchild/grandparent" program in your community? I'll try to find the specific references when I have more time, but I remember reading about how some program was pairing up children who didn't have grandparents with grandparents who didn't have grandchildren. The "grandparents" helped the kids with reading, and the sponsoring organization took the participants on outings to the zoo, ball games, etc. If you don't have an organization like that, how about starting one?

-- (kb8um8@yahoo.com), August 03, 2000.

cin, how arrogant to "shame on you, you jerk. How very rude.?" I'll say, yes you were very rude, cin. Because others don't agree with your view on parenting, grandparenting or abortion doesn't give you the right to become the great arbiter of everyone's behavior.

Having children is not the End All, Be All Trip for everyone. I have two granchildren that I'm lucky to see once a year, if they come to visit. We never go see them because we don't feel welcome. Yes, I'd like to see them more. No, I'm not going to mope, nor worry about it. I love my granchildren, but if I'd never had any, it wouldn't have bothered me one bit.

And this "carry on my name" baloney is just that. It's a damned good thing women don't worry about carrying on their names, for they would be up shit creek.

And while I think it's a worthy project for people who like that sort of thing, I don't feel deprived enough to "adopt a grandchild," but it's a good idea for some people and would certainly help the kids.

I love children in general, and a few in particular, but it's every adults choice to have or have not, and I respect that.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), August 03, 2000.

This reminds me a lot of the reasoning behind the Conquistadors' mass slaughter of the Indians they encountered - the Indians were considered non-humans that didn't have souls, so their murder was "justified". It seems to be the same reasoning behind aborting "fetuses" (babies) - "it's just tissue until it's born and breaths" or maybe "it's just tissue until *I* say it's human". All in all, it's just more excuses to promote hedonisim, to make the ADULT's live easier - no responsibility for their actions or the consequences of their actions. God Bless their innocent victims.

As for Romania, it seems that the parents are there to make a buck, that they've created a breeding farm as a means of making a living, horrifying as that is. Abortion - doubt they'd use it much, sorta killing the goose that lays the golden egg... Killing the babies to make the world a better place (?) - how about sterlizing the self- centered, hedonistic idiots who won't take responsibility for their actions?

"Oops, make a mistake and get knocked up(?), weeellll, let's just cut that little sucker right outta there and party on..." Yep, that's REAL healthy, morally sound thinking there. Just like blaming the victim instead of the rapist.

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), August 03, 2000.

Anita wrote, "Isn't the "carry on my name" excuse the one that causes the abortion or extermination of females today in China?" No it goes a little beyond that. Women are not even considered human in China.

Here in America though, since the thread was started by someone lamenting about no grandchildren here in the US, a woman can carry on the family name. Nothing says a woman must change her name when she marries or needs to name her children by the father's name. So you see, female babies will suffice.

BTW, have I broken any rules on responding on this forum?

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), August 03, 2000.

>> "...let's just cut that little sucker right outta there and party on..." Yep, that's REAL healthy, morally sound thinking there. <<

Well, no. Of course that isn't healthy, sound, moral thinking.

But remember, those are merely some (rather flippant) thoughts that you (rather flippantly) attribute to someone else.

The problem with that kind of talk on the issue is that it doesn't make much contact with reality. Reality is what real women think when faced with a real unwanted pregnancy. And I rather doubt reality ever sounds like, "...let's just cut that little sucker right outta there and party on..."

I admit, I base this on talking to a mere six women who have spoken to me about the abortion they chose to have at one time in their life. Not one was thinking in the terms you suggest. Each one thought it was a wrenching and difficult choice. Each of them was somber when they spoke to me about it. But none of them suggested they would choose otherwise if faced with the same circumstances again.

As far as I can see, that is what is real. Belittling those women like that seems just crass to me. In case you cared.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), August 03, 2000.

Excuse me Gilda, but I thought it rude that Shakey should bare his soul, only to be told HOW he should feel, and then, to see a psychiatrist. I thought that very insensitive. But I guess I wouldn't expect you to have noticed.

And for Deb M....well said. If so many don't want children, then why don't they get voluntarily sterilized. I'll bet it would even cost less than an abortion. Why isn't sterilization so readily available? Probably because the abortion industry is big money. Doctors and administrators know they can make more off SEVERAL abortions per female, verses only one sterilization procedure. The sick money hungry bastards

-- cin (cin@cinn.cin), August 03, 2000.

Cin, Sweet One, I'm all for voluntarily sterilization, but it's not a subject that a lot of us guys want to discuss, even though our operation is a lot less complicated and time-consuming. I think that a lot more men should consider it, especially those who've already fathered five or six children with as many women.

-- (kb8um8@yahoo.com), August 04, 2000.

>> Why isn't sterilization so readily available? <<

But...but...gee. It is!

I got sterilized at Planned Parenthood. It was not hard to arrange. In fact, it was pretty darned easy. It was obvious to my wife and I that "no more children" was the only sensible plan for us. I recognized that my getting snipped was a lot less dangerous than her getting a tubal ligation. A no brainer you might say, since I love my wife and have no intention of exposing her to unneeded dangers.

A couple of calls and a half hour visit later.., voila! I'm street legal and wearing an ice pack on my groin for the next 12 hours or so.

What made you think that sterilization is not among the options made simple by the same people who advocate the abortion option be available? I can vouch from personal experience, they make it easy. Their philosophy is consistant. Same for me.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), August 04, 2000.

Good for you Brian.

But judging by the number of abortions performed every day, I'd say they are not doing much counseling for sterilization.

-- cin (cin@cinn.cin), August 04, 2000.

>> I'd say they are not doing much counseling for sterilization. <<

When a pregnant woman walks into your office, what good is "counseling for sterilization" going to do her? Face it. If an abortion is in the offing, sterilization is too late that time around.

As far as counseling it goes. They do. Walk in to any planned Parenthood office and ask them about sterilization. They are ready, willing and able to talk to you about the pros and cons of sterilization and to help you decide if it is an appropriate avenue to explore or pursue.

In most cases, where you have a young man or woman under thirty, sterilization is not the most obvious answer. Don't you think?

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), August 04, 2000.

I see your point Brian.

Still, I think with so many people apparently not wanting to have children, it should really be a more propagated issue.

-- cin (cin@cinn.cin), August 04, 2000.

>I'm street legal and wearing an ice pack on my groin for the next 12 hours or so.

How long did it take for you to heal? I'm giving this procedure serious thought as well.

-- (kb8um8@yahoo.com), August 04, 2000.

Brian, sterilization was the answer for me. I was about 32 and lived in a small town. I went to this Dr. I'd been going to for abourt 4 years and told him I wanted to have band-aid surgery. He asked how many kids I had; I told him one, and he said no way would he do it. I was too young and if something happened to my child I might regret it. I was so damned mad. I told him that if something happened, and I had 10 more, it would never replace that one--the idiot.

I was so angry I was venting at the receptionist desk and she handed me a little card with the name of a woman M.D. I went to her, told her what happened, and she said, "There's no point in you taking brith control pills for the next 20 years. I'm sure you know your own mind." I had it done, an overnight stay in the hospital, and came home wearing my bandaid and that was it. I have never regretted it one minute. I do not understand why more ment and women don't have this simple procedure done.

My brother-in-law worked with a guy in the oil field that had a vasectomy, then rode his motorcycle 60 miles home from the Dr.'s office and forever after he was known as Leather Balls.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), August 04, 2000.

Gilda:

I know another couple who had a hard time getting approval for a vasectomy in Chicago because they only had one child. They were in their early 20's, the girl had learned she was diabetic, and another pregnancy would have been dangerous for her, she felt. They used the same argument that you did and he DID get the vasectomy. My boss when I was about 26 got a vasectomy after one child. His wife had endured a horrible labor and she said, "Never again!" He wore a T- shirt that proudly stated "All juice...no seed."

My husband got a vasectomy a year after our third was born. Of course I began menopause about a month after that. It was quite the mini-scandal as I explained to the neighborhood women that I wasn't menstruating. They INSISTED I was pregnant again and must be fooling around with someone. I knew I wasn't. The doctor wouldn't even test for menopause because I was too young. He DID test for pregnancy and I wasn't pregnant either. He just scratched his head. [I think doctors do a lot of that.]

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), August 04, 2000.

Shakey, sorry for your sorrow. I have not been where you are, though I have been led down a maze which led me as primary care giver for my nephews. What an oddesy. Some folks say I should put to print, the experiece, because it was so unusual. I am not there yet, because the beautiful ending still keeps unfolding, and I never had any control over the situation. I still stand back, in awe. Shakey, are not most, led down a maze? Your situation, like mine, is not in your control. (Don't we wish it were?" Different situations, yet they all require effort and a Leap of Faith? Unlike the president who said i feel your pain, I say "I feel your hurt". This Family here isn't so perfect. But we keep trying. And We will do it over and over again, until we get it right!!!!!!!

-- Church Fan (handw@ver.com), August 04, 2000.

>> How long did it take for you to heal? I'm giving this procedure serious thought as well. <<

OK. I'll give you the quick run-through how it went for me.

It was pretty interesting shaving my scrotum in preparation for the appointment. They want it smooth and hairless. You've never really lived until you've applied a razor to your balls! It is OK to breathe, but not too deeply.

The actual "operation" was pretty uncomplicated. After a local anaesthetic I felt very little and had no discomfort while the local was effective. It took about a half hour from start to finish. They would not let me drive home. My wife came with me and drove me home again.

I used ice packs pretty extensively for the first 20 hours or so, other than when I slept. I preferred ice to the Vicodin when I was awake. Ice worked and didn't have any side effects (other than dripping). I tapered off both the ice and the pain killers completely after about 2 1/2 days.

This was a very conservative approach. The pain, when I allowed it to come through the masking of ice or Vicodin was your basic dull ache, but nothing I couldn't live with, if necessary. Just discomfort. I went for greater comfort rather than biting the bullet.

As for "healing". I had two small slits in my scrotum. No stitches required. I wore a jock strap full time for the first week. There was a minor amount of oozing from the wounds and after a full day at work the ooze tended to crust and attach itself to the jock strap, so changing to a clean jock at night and in the morning, was a minor irritation.

After about a week, the problems were so minor as to be beyond trivial. They just didn't matter any more. I kept feeling so smooth down there that it felt weird, though.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), August 04, 2000.

Shakey, I'm so sorry to hear of your failing health. I wish there were something I could say to make your loss of grandchildren more bearable.

I would like to invite all of you to take a look at a website called Faces of Adoption. You can look at pictures of children waiting for adoption. If you look at sibling groups, you might see birthdates that fall within the same year or several children born in a short period of years. Many of these children are described as doing well in school and socially normal. For some reason they aren't with their birth families any more. Many many other children have medical or psychiatric problems that make them even more difficult to place for adoption. The common theme among them all is that they were living in poverty.

Whether you are pro-choice or pro-life, go look at the kids and see if you can think of a way to help.

-- helen (home@home.home), August 04, 2000.

Brian:

Sounds like you really got into that hairless thing. Do you still shave "down there". I do and I love that silky smoooth feeling between my legs. Ooooooooooooooh!

-- cin (cin@cinn.cin), August 05, 2000.

>> Do you still shave "down there". <<

Heck no. It felt like I was devolving into a chihuahua.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), August 05, 2000.

Good Lord. That was probably way more than anyone here ever wanted to know about cin.

-- (Yuck@Yikes.sheesh), August 05, 2000.

Thanks for the narrative, Brian. Sounds like it isn't that big of a deal, thank goodness.

-- (kb8um8@yahoo.com), August 05, 2000.

Abortion threads are as common 'round here as metaphysical threads. And probably about as effective. Does anyone's mind ever get changed? But these threads are interesting; I am always intrigued by what everyone has to say (altho Brian you pushed my envelope).

So what I say next I am sure I have said before. The same old boring stuff. I'll try to be brief.

Has anyone ever met a woman who considered having an abortion, decided NOT to have the abortion and then regetted her decision? I haven't. Has anyone ever met a woman who has had an abortion and then regretted it? I have.

I don't claim to know when human life begins. I agree that a woman should have a right to choose to have an abortion. (but I don't think she has the right to have the abortion funded by taxpayers). As I say, I am pro-choice but, except for rape or incest or the mother's health, I hope that the choice is always for life.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), August 05, 2000.

That wasn't me. I apparently have a troll/clone.

-- cin (cin@cinn.cin), August 06, 2000.

Mr. Shakey, why do you lament your condition? Come over to my side of the fence. It has been the most astounding of human situations. Before my Grandchildren were born, I was tasked with raising my nephews. I stayed up, to feed these hungry monster "night" eaters, I got little rest. This continued, for several years. I today, lament, that I do not have the soul connectivity to my own Grandchildren, that I have to my deceased Sister's children. I have sought rest and forgivness in prayer. It got so bad, on my soul, one day I raised my hands to the Heavens, and cried "please take this guilt!" Funny thing, the remorse was taken from my shoulders ( while it sits, in safe keeping). One step at the time.

-- Church Fan (hand@waver.com), August 07, 2000.