The show scene in Germany.

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Elisabeth, you said that you felt it is easier to become a Champion in Germany than in England - can you explain how your system differs to ours?

Also, I understand that you have to have your dogs graded, or have to achieved a certain level, before you can breed from them - am I correct?(:o)

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2000

Answers

Hi, here I try to explain our system. If you have any more questions about it just ask or if my explanation is no good, let me know. We got following calsses: puppy class (from 6-9 month) junior class (from 9 - 18 month) open class (from 15 - ...), first placed dog gets a CAC ticket. champion class (your dog needs to have a titel. For example German Ch. VDH or English Champion. They do not accept American Champion titel here) Class of honor (You put a dog into that one which got all titels already you are able to win at the show, but he competes for BOB) Veteran class (I believe the dog has to be 8 years old for that one, but does not compete for BOB) Class out of competition (here you can sign in a dog you would like to breed with or if you want a critic of him but he is not in show condition. The dogs in this class will get a critic but no placement will be done.) We have CAC Shows and CACIB Shows. The CAC Show is mostly a smaller show with a few different breeds (for example all tibetan dogs or so) held by the breed clubs. The CACIB Shows are International Shows which are held for all breeds and are done on two days by the VDH. Here best bitch and best dog will get a CACIB ticket. You need two CACIB tickets in your home country and two others of different countries in Europe. Between the first and the last ticket must be a time of 12 month and one day. For the title german champion VDH you need 4 CAC tickets from 3 different judges and two of those have to be won on a CACIB show. Also there have to be the time between the first one and the last one of 12 month and 1 day. Junior Champion you have to win 3 times the junior class. All dogs placed on 1 will have to get an excellent to win a ticket. You also can get other titels in germany but it will get to complex here a guess. If somebody is interested just mail.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2000

The VDH (Verband f|r das Deutsche Hundewesen) is comparable with the KC. The second question I can explain you with the dog I bought in the UK. This bitch (called Leonie) arrived here with her export pedigree (very important!). I had to sent the pedigree to our Club office, where they put german registration number on it. Then I had to wait till I can show her in junior class. There are few shows in the year which are anounced before that the "Zuchtzulassung" (breeding permission)will be done. I entered my dog in the junior class and on that day your dog has to get at least a very good from the judge to enter to the breeding permission. (Sorry but I can not translate the word ZUCHTZULASSUNG exactly, therefore I created the word breeding permission which comes quite close with the meaning) The breeding permission will be done after the show from 2 special Shih Tzu judges. They look at your dog very intesiv and they also look at the movement. At the end of the form the will write eather. Yes you can breed with that dog and can use any other Shih Tzu or they can write for example if the dog has a bad bite yes you can breed with it but only are allowed to use a dog with a good bite. If the two judges have the impression the dog introduced has hip dysplasia they can ask for an x-ray and the dog has to be shown again later after he got checked. They also can decide the dog is not enough mature and you have to show him another time, or they decide that you are allowed to do one litter ect. This is the way they do it in the German Shih Tzu Club. Not all the breed clubs are the same. Please let me know what do you think about a breeding system like this? I am very very interested in your point of view.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2000

Elisabeth! You must be exhausted - what a wonderfully detailed description, especially in a `second` language!

So my understanding is that there are different `levels` of champion. The top level (the equivalent to our English CH.) being the VDH one? That one sounds more difficult to get than our one, because you need the equivalent of four of our CCs.

I do like the idea of the 12 months and 1 day gap - it seems a good way to spread the CCs a bit.

Thank you so much for taking the time to explain your German system. (:o)

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2000


I am absolutely fascinated by the `breeding permission` system you have in place in Germany! I have several questions!

Who chooses the Judges who allowed to grade dogs for breeding?

How many Judges are there in Germany who can grade dogs?

Do they have to have a special qualification?

What if you disagree with the Judge`s opinion - can you ask for a second opinion?!

What do you think of the German system? Do you think it works well and is a good thing?

What if the Judge is also the Breeder of the dog - can he still grade the dog for breeding permission?

My first reaction is that I just can not imagine that system being accepted in the UK. I will be very interested to hear what other people think!(:o)

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2000


You keep me busy! 1. The champion titel is to get more easy because we have a small entery of Shih Tzu at the shows. I have been to a CACIB Show where there have been only 11 Shih Tzu and the Shih Tzu Specalty next week (which is not organized of the Shih Tzu Club) has an entry of 47 Shih Tzu which is a lot for us. You get a VDH CAC in Open and Champion Class. For the titel German Champion Club you get a Club CAC ticket in open class. But if you are German Ch. Club you can enter the Champion Class and go for the VDH Ch.

About the breeding permission. All explains are about the system of the German Shih Tzu Club. In other clubs the system can be slightly different. 1. The judges get elected by the club meeting 2. The Shih Tzu Club got 4 Special Judges 3. Two of those judges are activ Shih Tzu breeders and judges for Shih Tzu and two of them are judges also for other breeds. 4. If I disagree, I look very stupid and change the club? LOL I actually do not know, but I will find out. 5. I think the system does not improve the quality of the dogs. I would like to see that they look more for health, size and weight. 6. No, the judges can not do the permission for there own dog.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2000



Elisabeth! You are doing a marvellous job with your replies! I take you point about entry numbers - that does indeed make a big difference.

I am still amazed at the `breeding permission` system. It sounds like two Breed Specialists and two Non-breed Specialists can virtually direct the breeding programme for the whole country. I have no doubt that the judges picked have great integrity, but any Breed Standard is open to some degree of interpretation. By the way, I`m pleased you laughed at my question - what do you do if you disagree! (:o) It was a bit wicked of me I know, but I couldn`t resist!I`mI`m not worried! - no really, I`m not! Just wishing I had never watched programmes like `Ibiza Uncovered`! Anyway, six weeks into her new job, and I think she is ready for some R and R. Yelli`s been working some pretty long hours (hence the lack of postings on here) butseems to be really enjoying it and thoroughly impressing her new employers in the process.

I have been trying to get my head around what I need for my web site - looking for web sets etc. A friend in the States volunteered to do my site for me, and in fact, I wish I had not worried! - no really, I`m not! Just wishing I had never watched programmes like `Ibiza Uncovered`! Anyway, six weeks into her new job, and I think she is ready for some R and R. Yelli`s been working some pretty long hours (hence the lack of postings on here) butseems to be really enjoying it and thoroughly impressing her new employers in the process.

I have been trying to get my head around what I need for my web site - looking for web sets etc. A friend in the States volunteered to do my site for me, and in fact, I wish I had

I hope some people take the time to read you postings - they are just so interesting!

Elisabeth, do feel free to give out the password and webpage to anyone who you think would enjoy contributing. Do you have some contacts in other Continental countries? It would be interesting to compare the various systems throughout the world. (:o)

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2000


Well, if my last posting confused you - don`t worry - it confused me too! Somehow I managed to cut and paste a whole chunk from one of my replies to the Unofficial NUFC Site!!!. I shall re-post it - minus the nonsense in the middle!

What a fool I am sometimes!(:o)

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2000


Right! Let me unscramble that posting of mine. I am sure you not at all interested in my daughter`s forthcoming holiday in Teneriffe! I am assuming that our new Bengal kitten`s climbing all over the keyboard while I was typing must have had something to do with it!

It should have read:

Elisabeth! You are doing a marvellous job with your replies! I take your point about entry numbers - that does indeed make a big difference.

I am still amazed at the `breeding permission` system. It sound like two Breed specialists and two Non-breed specialists can virtually direct the breeding programme for the whole country. I have no doubt that the judges picked have great integrity, but any Breed Standard is open to some degree of interpretation. By the way, I am pleased you laughed at my question - what do you do if you disagree?! It was a bit wicked, but I couldn`t resist!

I hope some people take the time to read your postings - they are just so interesting.

Elisabeth, do feel free to give out the password and webpage to anyone who you think would enjoy contributing. Do you have some contacts in other Continental countries? It would be interesting to compare the various systems throughout the world. (:o)

-- Anonymous, August 04, 2000


Hi Roz & Elizabeth - I am also amazed to hear about the 'breeding permission' system. I had no idea that this had to be done. Is this done for every breed ? Is there more than one Shih Tzu club? If so do they all have their own 'judges' to grade the dogs? Are the gradings accepted by the equivalent of the Kennel Club? Do you ever have complaints about the gradings? or do people just accept them of they are not what they would have wanted? It is fascinating to hear about this!!!!!!

-- Anonymous, August 13, 2000

That`s exactly how I felt Stephanie! I was, as they say, gob- smacked! My immediate reaction was how open to abuse it could be (or am I just being too cynical?) It`s frustrating that so few people have cottoned on to this site yet - I am sure they would find this particular discussion fascinating!(:o)

-- Anonymous, August 13, 2000


Hi, the breeding permission is done in every breed in every club. The german kennel club (VDH) ask the breedclub to do it. In Germany there is the International Shih Tzu Club and a club for all kinds of small breeds who has some members with Shih Tzu as well. If you do not accept what they will write about your dog in that breeding permission then you can make an application and sent this letter to the club, then the two other judges will look at your dog and discuss the problem. I just believe that the quality of a dog can not be mesuared with 12 questions about the dog. And also the Shih Tzu developes still in the first 2 years I think. But it is a rule in germany which every club has to do. I am very busy organizing the show on next saturday, after that I will have more time to shih tzu - talk. Oh, I almost forgot, the show with Pat Lord was really nice. We all liked her judging very much. I made wiht my male and bitch both 2. places in there class. BOB made a solid gold male, Casper of Savaredo and best bitch made Lucky Lions Bitter Sweet. You can find a picture of the Lucky Lions under http://www.welpen.de Go look for Shih Tzu.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2000

Pleased to hear that you had a good show, and enjoyed Pat`s judging. She`s a lovely lady, and a one who knows her dogs. Well done with your placings.(:o)

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2000

Pat was indeed a very nice lady and so is Pauline Brooks.We had alot of fun with both of them.They stayed with us for some days and we watch National videos and go threw old Reporters. We had a good conversation and discussion on the breed.At least we find out that we have nearly the same idears and thoughts. I am hoping to set up a webpage with the winners as soon as i figured out how to load to my new webpage.I let you know.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2000

Excellent! I look forward to seeing them.(:o)

BTW please feel free to pass on the information about this forum to your friends - the more people we have posting, the more fun it will be!

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2000


As Elisabeth said.We have two clubs that represent the shih tzu in germany.I belong to the other one and our breeding permisson is slithly different than the one from the shih tzu club.We need to have a check for the Patella Luxation done,before we can bring the dog in for the breed permission test.We do not have only breed specilist judge,our club has more the allrounders,who breed shih tzu or other toy breeds.My club enclose 13 breeds.We do have a competion where each breed is dog of the year.Out of the winner they will take out the toydog of the year.Similar to the shih tzu club,we have two person done the breed permisson.We have a limited permisson,which can be done for males with 9 month and bitches with 12 month.If you had you dog with permisson in this age you have go again for another permisson with 15 month.The situation is that we as shih tzu breeders in the V.K.e.V. has to part each and everything with other breeds and not many special things are done for shih tzu only.This brought me to my idear that the V.K.e.V. should held a Shih Tzu Spezial.We had a interesting entry and we discussed with some breeders of my club,that she should organisze meetings from time to time to talk about the breed.What else is important that you can't show an amercian champion in champion class,if he has only the american title.As the VDH got the opinion that these titels are to easy to obtain and sometime in to you age.I have no idear how long ti takes to get an english champion,but we do have to wait 1 year and a day between the first and last card CAC.For for sample in Danmark it is much easer to become champion.Netherland count in the CAC won from dogs under 17 month etc..Luxembourg Championship has no waiting time as far as i knew.

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2000


Brigitte - another wonderful explanation! It does seem to me very complicated that you have several different clubs, running the administration of the breed in different ways. But, I can`t decide whether I think that it is a good or a bad thing. At least there is the possibility of a variety of opinions.

As for the breed permission - I am very definately in two minds about that one. I can see that it might help to improve the health of the breed, especially if you have to check for certain problems before applying, but beyond that, I wonder how much personal preferences and interpretation of the standard will affect the assessor`s judgement.

I have a monumental pile of laundry to do to-day, I shall give this further thought whilst wading through it!(:o)

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2000


Hello, I am back, after I had done the show last weekend. Where Brigitte made BOB and BIS with her bitch Phildore Stolen Memories. I wonder if there is something similar to our breeding permission in other countries? What is about the UK? Do you have to show your dogs before you breed them?

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2000

How was the show? Did you enjoy it?

As for your question, it is midnight, and I need a little more time to think about the answer. I will speak to you again about it tomorrow, unless some kind person answers it for me! (:o)

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2000


So far as i knew we as members of the VDH have the strongest breedingrules.I talk to my friend in the netherland a couple of weeks ago and she told me that there will be a change in the netherlands soon.They are working on something.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2000

Brigitte, is your friend in the Netherlands on line? Perhaps you can persuade her to join us(:o)

-- Anonymous, September 02, 2000

I will see what i can do.She has lost some of her dogs due of age and she is very sad and doing her memorie pages and she and me too are praying for a shih tzu breeder friend who need to have a lifesaving surgery.So i am not sure ,if she is joing at this point.So our thoughts are more with her and we are looking daily that they have a place for her bypass operation.

-- Anonymous, September 02, 2000

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