So lets briefly examine the following fifteen commonly held BELIEFS that MOST Americans BELIEVE to be "true for a fact" and separate BELIEF from REALITY.

BELIEF #1:

Is that you live in a democracy. After all, doesnt our own president keep referring to America as a "democracy" whose job it is to make the whole WORLD "safe for democracy"? The FACT is that America is NOT a democracy and never HAS been. America is a REPUBLIC. Article 4, Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution states: "the United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a REPUBLICAN Form of Government". You pledge allegiance "... to the REPUBLIC for which it stands UNDER GOD..." The word "democracy" does NOT appear in the Constitution, the constitutions of any of the 50 states, or the Declaration of Independence. ALL democracies throughout history have died when a majority of the public realized they could vote themselves their "FAIR SHARE" of the benefits from the public trough. Samuel Adams, Father of the American Revolution, stated: "Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes itself. there never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide". Its not Americas job to make the whole WORLD "safe for democracy". Democracy isnt SAFE ! Its Americas job to defend and protect our constitutional God Given/Inspired REPUBLIC.

BELIEF #2:

Is that the GOVERNMENT grants us our rights, such as our "right" to a good education, and that the job of the COURTS is to defend our rights FOR us. The FACT is, YOUR rights come from GOD, not from ANY creation of MAN. Its NOT the job of the court, your Congressman or anyone ELSE to assert and defend YOUR God-given rights, its YOUR job. Its the COURTs job to merely see that JUSTICE is EQUALLY served.

BELIEF #3:

Is that the Federal Reserve System is a government agency. The FACT is that the Federal Reserve is a PRIVATE, FOR PROFIT corporation, as confirmed by the 9th Circuit Court when it ruled on June 24, 1982 in the case LEWIS vs. United States:

"We conclude that the [Federal] Reserve Banks are NOT federal... but are independent, PRIVATELY owned... corporations... without day to day direction from the federal government".

The Federal Reserve in no more FEDERAL than Federal Express. You won't find it listed in the phone book under GOVERNMENT AGENCIES. Youll find it in the WHITE pages along with OTHER private businesses. The Federal Reserve pays ZERO federal and state income tax, just PROPERTY taxes on its buildings, and has NEVER to this day been fully audited by the General Accounting Office (GAO). And there are NO reserves, as the Boston Federal Reserve Bank admits in its publication "PUTTING IT SIMPLY":

"When you or I write a check there must be sufficient funds in our account to cover that check, but when the Federal Reserve writes a check, it is creating money".

Under fractional reserve banking, the "Fed" creates money out of THIN AIR by LENDING it into circulation FULL face value PLUS INTEREST. Since FUTURE loans must be issued to CREATE the money to PAY this interest, the federal debt can NEVER mathematically be repaid, in spite of all the political rhetoric.

BELIEF #4:

Is that inflation is a NATURAL and unavoidable phenomenon. The TRUTH is that inflation is ENGINEERED as each new paper lent dollar into circulation REDUCES the value of all dollars ALREADY in existence. Experience has taught the "Fed" that a 5% annual DEVALUATION of the money supply can be consistently maintained without alarming the public. To date, this insidious tax has gradually ROBBED Americans of over 90% of their purchasing power, thereby generating TRILLIONS of dollars in profits to the private banking monopoly that RENTS us our money supply.

BELIEF #5:

Is that our government owes the currently $5.5 TRILLION dollar debt to ITSELF. Of course if that were TRUE, the government could simply FORGIVE itself its OWN DEBT and START OVER ! the fact is that the government owes the debt to the Federal Reserve System. Or, more accurately, to the mostly FOREIGN FAMILIES who lobbied certain Congressmen to RAMROD through the Federal Reserve Act back in 1913 and to this day comprise Class "A" voting STOCKHOLDERS of the Federal Reserve System.

BELIEF #6:

Is that the 16th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution - the so called "INCOME TAX" amendment - AUTHORIZED the income tax. Not according to the SUPREME COURT, it didnt ! The high court ruled in 1916 in STANTON vs. BALTIC MINING - a case that has NEVER been overturned - that the 16th Amendment conferred, and I quote:

"... no new power of taxation".

Imagine that ! The highest court in the land ruling that the 16th changed absolutely NOTHING ! Why not ? Because the 16th Amendment did NOT REPEAL Article 1, Section 2 Clause 3 or Article 1, Section 9, Clause 4 of the Constitution, which absolutely FORBID Congress from DIRECTLY taxing a U.S. citizen ! So why WAS the 16th written? to create the ILLUSION of a new authority to directly tax U.S. citizens, an illusion upon which the IRS still relies.

BELIEF #7

And so it seems BEYOND obvious to say so - is that the purpose of the income tax is to raise revenue to pay for the day-to-day operations of the federal government. Not according to the Grace Commission. On January 15, 1984, this private-sector, blue ribbon committee, impaneled by President Ronald Reagan to find ways to cut government spending, stated in their final report to the president:

"... 100% of what is collected is absorbed SOLELY by interest on the Federal Debt... all individual income tax revenues are gone BEFORE one NICKEL is spent on the service taxpayers expect from government".

The FACT is that not ONE DOLLAR of personal income tax collected by the IRS goes to pay for government services, but actually goes to pay the INTEREST on our "DEBT" to the Federal Reserve.

Then why ARE income taxes collected? Again lets hear the TRUTH directly from the source. In a paper titled "Taxes For Revenue Are Obsolete", published in the January 1946 issue of AMERICAN AFFAIRS, Beardsley Ruml, then Chairman of the powerful New York branch of the Federal Reserve System, revealed:

"... the most important SINGLE purpose to be served by the imposition of federal taxes is the maintenance of a dollar which has stable purchasing power over the years. "Without the use of federal taxation, all other means of stabilization... are unavailing".

In other words, the TRUE purpose of the income tax is to maintain economic CONTROL. By siphoning off excess dollars from circulation, the inflation - perhaps even the hyperinflation - that would ordinarily result from issuing too much PAPER money can be masked. Now you know the truth BEHIND the income tax.

BELIEF #8:

Is that the Internal Revenue Code is so bewildering in its complexity that its beyond the comprehension of mere mortals.

Thats simply not true. In fact, Ive given the code to several TWELVE-YEAR-OLDS to read and they had NO problem understanding it at ALL ! Its written in plain English. To understand the code, you simply start with the INDEX. If youre involved in activities relating to, for example, gifts, trusts, estates or the manufacture of alcohol or tobacco products, go to those chapters and locate the LIABILITY statutes to see what youre required to file and pay. However, if youre NOT involved in those activities, youre not the "TAXPAYER" of those taxes and can IGNORE those chapters completely. Repeated warnings from the government and the media have probably led you to BELIEVE that EVERYONE has a requirement to file income tax returns and owes their "FAIR SHARE" of the income tax whether they LIKE paying it or not. Otherwise, why would MILLIONS of blank Form 1040s be piled up each spring in post offices and libraries across America? Why else would the IRS MAIL one to MILLIONS of American homes each year? So does EVERYONE owe the income tax? Who DID Congress make liable ? Was it YOU ? To see where Congress made the U.S. Citizen working within the fifty states liable for the tax on his OWN "INCOME", simply read chapters through six of the code which cover the tax on "INCOME" and locate the corresponding liability statute. GOOD LUCK, because it doesnt EXIST ! You can scan the ENTIRE code by computer on a CD-ROM or on-line on the Internet: (http://TeamInfinity.com/~ralph/code/t26.html) and I GUARANTEE you wont find it. THOUSANDS have looked with a fine tooth comb and its just NOT THERE. If you do not BELIEVE me, try it YOURSELF. The ONLY liability of the U.S. Citizen is when WITHHOLDING from a FOREIGNER or when working OVERSEAS in a FOREIGN country under a current tax treaty with the U.S. Now, your tax professional may point to code section 1 which imposes the income tax on "individuals", but research the underlying Treasury regulations for code section 1 and you will discover that the "individual" referred to is one with FOREIGN source income ONLY ! Which is why, as outrageous as it may sound, it is absolutely CORRECT to state that, unless in receipt of FOREIGN source income, you are not NOW paying the income tax nor have you EVER paid one DIME in income tax your entire LIFE ! But how could this POSSIBLY be true since youve always filed Form 1040, most likely because you BELIEVE, and this is...

BELIEF #9:

Is that the IRS intended Form 1040 to be used by ALL working Americans to report their income. Not according to the Department of the Treasury which supervises the IRS. Treasury Department Decision 2313 issued on March 21, 1916, states:

"The responsible heads, agents, or representatives of NONRESIDENT ALIENS... shall make a full and complete return of the INCOME there-from on Form 1040...".

As further proof, under the 1980 Paperwork Reduction Act, Congress made the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) the watchdog required to approve ANY government agency form that asks for information from a U.S. citizen. According to the OMB and the National Office of the IRS, the REQUIRED form for a U.S. Citizen to use to report income is NOT Form 1040, its Form 2555, titled "FOREIGN Earned Income". The top of the Form 2225 says "attach to front of Form 1040". Form 1040 "U.S. Individual Income Tax Return" is merely a SUPPLEMENTAL worksheet to the REQUIRED Form 2555, which states "for use by U.S. Citizens...".

Apparently the IRS DOES know the difference between an "INDIVIDUAL" and a "CITIZEN". Sure, youve been filing and signing Form 1040 all along, swearing under penalties of perjury that everything listed on it IS income to you REGARDLESS of its source, foreign or otherwise. And since committing

perjury would be a FELONY, the IRS is correct in PRESUMING that you have sworn to tell the TRUTH. Which is why they dont tear up your 1040 and mail your check back with a letter explaining your mistake. Now you understand the REAL meaning of "VOLUNTARY COMPLIANCE"! So if you havent been paying the INCOME tax, what HAVE you been paying? Youve been paying the EMPLOYMENT tax, otherwise known as the WAGE or SOCIAL SECURITY tax. The EMPLOYMENT TAX is found in chapters twenty-one through twenty-five of the code, and has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the income tax under the law. And who is liable for the EMPLOYMENT TAX? the "EMPLOYEE", a legally defined term with in the law. So is EVERYONE who works for someone else AUTOMATICALLY an "EMPLOYEE"? No, only working VOLUNTEERS. Those who VOLUNTEERED to apply for a Social Security Number. Those who VOLUNTEER to use that number to build up credits towards retirement and other federal benefits. Those who VOLUNTEER to sign a Form W-4 "Employees Withholding ALLOWANCE Certificate" and ALLOW taxes to be withheld from their paycheck. Which leads us to...

BELIEF #10:

That submitting the W-4 is REQUIRED by law. Its NOT ! The fact IS that there is NO law requiring ANY worker to execute a Form W-4. Its STRICTLY ELECTIVE. Of course, it APPEARS mandatory, since most employers wont hire you without one. why not ? Because theyve NEVER read the ACTUAL LAW, so they BELIEVE its required. The W-4 is a PERMISSION SLIP that allows an "EMPLOYER" - another legally defined term - to withhold taxes from an "EMPLOYEE". So is EVERYONE who hires others AUTOMATICALLY an "EMPLOYER"? No, only one who has signed Form SS-4 "Application For Employer Identification Number". As you may have guessed now, THATs not required either ! After all, an application is ALWAYS voluntary, isnt it? Otherwise, thered be no reason to apply! The proper paperwork to STOP tax withholding in the workplace is explained in 26 Code of Federal Regulations, section 1.1441-5 and in IRS Publication 515, which in speaking to the withholding agent states:

"If an individual gives you a written statement stating that he or she is a CITIZEN or RESIDENT of the United States, and you do not know OTHERWISE, you do NOT have withhold tax".

Imagine THAT ! One who hires other does NOT need to be an unpaid bookkeeper for the federal government! And a worker doesnt HAVE to give the government an interest-free loan. Since everyone asks for your Social Security Number, you probably BELIEVE and this is...

BELIEF #11:

That you are REQUIRED to obtain a number for yourself and your child. Not true and NEVER has been. The fact IS, as the Social Security Administration readily admits in its standard form letter to ANYONE who asks:

"The Social Security Act does NOT require a person to have a Social Security number in order to live and work in the United States, nor does it require a [number] simply for the sake of having one".

Title 42 of the United States Code, Section 405(B)(i) states under Subsection (II) that Social Security Numbers are assigned:

"... to and individual who is an APPLICANT for or recipient of benefits".

Theres NO law that REQUIRES a U.S. citizen to obtain or use a number, or to get one for their child. Shocked? It gets worse. the IRS cant even establish a record in their computer systems (by law) for any entity that does NOT volunteer to number itself, whether a corporation, a partnership or a natural person. Which is why those choose NOT to apply for a Social Security are non-taxpayers and are NEVER contacted by the IRS their entire LIVES!

BELIEF #12:

Is that the law REQUIRES EVERYONE to join Social Security and pay Social Security taxes, and that NO one could possibly ever QUIT Social Security. This is perhaps the BIGGEST deceit of all. Walter E. Williams, Distinguished Professor of Economics at George Mason University, wrote:

"All we have to do now is to inform the public that the payment of social security taxes is VOLUNTARY and watch the mass exodus".

Especially when they fully realize the impact of what Dorcas Hardy, former Commissioner of Social Security, wrote in the December 1995 issue of Readers Digest:

"There is no prospect that todays younger workers will receive all the Social Security and Medicare benefits currently promised them".

Tens of THOUSANDS of well informed U.S. citizens have ALREADY quit Social Security - 100% LEGALLY - by submitting an Affidavit of Revocation and Rescission to Secretary of the Treasury, REVOKING their VOLUNTARY application for a Social Security Number.

BELIEF #13:

Based upon MOST Americans ingrained fear of audits, is that you MUST produce your books and records when summoned to appear before the IRS. Not according to the courts. On July 28, 1969, 7th Circuit Court of Appeals Judge Cummings stated in the case U.S. v. Dickerson:

"Only the rare taxpayer would be likely to know that he could REFUSE to produce his records to IRS agents...

"Who would believe the ironic truth that the COOPERATIVE taxpayer fares much WORSE than individual who relies upon his constitutional RIGHTS".

The fact IS that the 4th and 5th Amendments to the U.S. Constitution PROTECT your right to privacy in your books and records and your right NOT to be compelled to be a witness AGAINST yourself in a criminal action.

BELIEF #14:

Is that the IRS has the lawful authority to levy upon the paycheck or bank account of a U.S. citizen. Not according to the Internal Code (Title 26) Section 6331, titled "Levy and Distraint", paragraph (a) states:

"Levy may be made upon the accrues salary or wages of any OFFICER, EMPLOYEE, or ELECTED OFFICIAL of the United States, [or] the District of Columbia...".

No mention of the U.S. Citizen, is there? Of course, that wouldnt stop the IRS from levying YOU, would it?

BELIEF #15:

Our FINAL belief is that, given the horror stories youve seen and heard, if YOU were to decide to take a stand for YOUR rights and were to STOP "DOING BUSINESS" with the IRS, youd be on your own with no support or assistance available. Fortunately, this too is false. Out of a profusion of so-called "un-tax" and "de-tax" groups that rely upon untested theories, unproven arguments and "silver bullets", there has emerged ONE prestigious, national organization which serves no other purpose than to actively promote the study of the law and to assist its members in the assertion of their rights in accordance with the law, ESPECIALLY when dealing with the IRS and the state taxing agencies.

Its called the Save-A-Patriot Fellowship, and has been in CONTINUOUS existence since 1984 at the same physical location - 12 Carroll Street in Westminster, Maryland - and has members in all fifty states.

Our members are aware that various government agencies - and the IRS in PARTICULAR - are systematically infringing upon individual rights; that this infringement is often a direct result of inadequately trained government employees who are more concerned with adhering to administrative "POLICY" than to the written law itself; and that such policy often runs counter to the constitutional LIMITS that are imposed on the government.

As the result of YEARS of dedicated legal research, correspondence and even legal BATTLES with the IRS, our staff has ALREADY sorted through what would take the AVERAGE person a LIFETIME to figure out on his or her own.

Our association recognizes the necessity of raising revenues through taxation but ALSO recognizes that this necessity has provisions in the LAW and that the government in meeting its exigencies may NOT extend its activities BEYOND the law.

The Fellowship is therefore NOT a "tax protest" group, but is a First Amendment association dedicated to confining IRS and other government personnel within the law AS IT IS ACTUALLY WRITTEN.

When someone joins the Fellowship, it is a foregone conclusion that they are particularly concerned with the IRS and its propensity to MISAPPLY the law and to illegally enforce its provisions.

Fellowship members know that the IRS keeps the multitudes in line by using the news media to plant stories suggesting that resistance is useless and reprisal is swift and painful. These "reminders" and a lifetime of Pavlovian conditioning make it difficult for MOST people to take the first break-away step. However, since Fellowship members have taken the time to EDUCATE themselves and prepare a proper legal defense, the risk has been removed! The Fellowship provides mutual aid, support, and assistance to those who wish to assert their rights. This is accomplished in a number of ways.

First, the Fellowship operates much like an insurance company in that members pledge to assist other members should they suffer a loss of cash or property. In the event that any member is damaged financially by the IRS or state taxing agencies as a result of illegal collection practices and confiscations, the member is reimbursed up to one-hundred and fifty thousand dollars through a uniform assessment of the membership, currently costing each member just $15 to $20 dollars per month, a figure which has steadily declined over the years as members continue to join. This MEMBER ASSISTANCE PROGRAM goes a long way towards removing the fear of asserting ones rights in the face of a frequently oppressive taxing authority. And since the member is REIMBURSED and its the IRS that has spent thousands in PURSUING the member, who has REALLY been damaged? With the financial threat of asserting ones Liberty thereby removed, "closet" Patriots are joining the Fellowship in droves. Welcome to the Constitutional Revivalist Movement !

Second, the Fellowship provides educational materials and resources in the form of newsletters, videos, audio cassettes, and books. Our members-only newsletter, "Reasonable Action", has for the past ten years been regarded by many as one of the most highly respected tax-oriented publications in the nation.

Third, the Fellowship has researched and developed legal defensive weapons to protect our members Liberty and Property, and provides assistance via our paralegal and case development departments. Should the IRS attempt to contact a member, caseworkers are available to handle the correspondence and to address any improper requests or allegations. 1f the IRS attempts to move forward with an improper lien or illegal collection action, paralegals are available to assist.

Since 1984, the Fellowship has published a flyer titled "Believe It Or Not!" which offers a $10,000 Cash Reward to ANYONE - in or out of government who can DISPROVE the statements in the flyer To date, not a SINGLE judge, politician, lawyer, C.P.A. or IRS official has been able to collect the reward, and MANY have tried.

The research this flyer has spurred has produced MANY en-lightened C.P.A.s and tax professionals.

For many years, by using fear of audit and other scare tactics, the IRS has maintained CONSTANT surveillance over MILLIONS of honest Americans. Now, its time now to reach out and inform the public that our investigation of the IRS ITSELF is complete. There ARE no more missing puzzle pieces. The picture is complete and its not a pretty one. After viewing it, you may NEVER look at your government the same way again.

Its time for Americans to take our country back, beginning with our pocketbooks. For, without our rights to Property asserted and defended, true Liberty in America can never exist.

If you would like to avail yourself of the opportunity to receive the finest "adult education" currently available with regards to our constitutional heritage, including a thorough and accurate analysis of the LIMITED liability of the U S. citizen for internal taxation, please contact the qualified Independent Representative of The Save-A-Patriot Fellowship who provided you steered you to this information and ask about our educational, Limited Membership.

On the other hand, if you or someone you care about needs assistance in responding properly to a Notice of Deficiency, lien, levy or seizure or to other correspondence received from the Internal Revenue Service or state taxing agency; or needs assistance in stopping tax withholding in the workplace; or in quitting Social Security; or in filing bankruptcy to stop tax collection activity; or with any other tax issue requiring legal assistance and defense, be sure to inquire about our FULL Membership.

Also, ask how to order the following powerful VHS video presentations: our eye-opening, two-hour introductory video, titled "The Truth BEHIND The Income Tax" and our ground-breaking twelve-hour video seminar, titled "Just The Facts"

This web site best viewed in frames CLICK HERE

Streaming Audio No Plugins Needed Click Here

-- truth seeker (truthseeker@aol.com), July 26, 2000

Answers

BELIEF #16: "Truth Seeker" is a SPAMMER posting under multiple names to shill for the fraudulent Save-A-Patriot Fellowship which is apparently running low on suckers who can give them the quick infusion of cash they need to live high on the hog at the expense of hard-working tax-paying Americans.

Seek that!!!!

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), July 26, 2000.

BELIEF # 17: Truth Seeker, after 34 years of dropping purple microdot and 4-way windowpane has discovered that reality was NOT a concept. As a result of this chemically abusive lifestyle, Mr. TS has come to the conclusion that the rest of the world has also mutated thus his childish request for funding. TS, you will find that the path you have been on does not exist when you turn around.

BTW, no tellin what them thar Amaricans will fall fer.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), July 26, 2000.

"after 34 years of dropping purple microdot and 4-way windowpane "

Not "ALL veterans" of that era are pre-disposed to flashbacks Ra,some even kinda turned out quite normal ; )

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), July 26, 2000.

The stars-man-they are twirling around right in front of my eyes-I can taste them-their colors sound magnificent. I can jump over the sun man, just like that cow-the 32nd notes are like a staircase leading to the lap of God-who is munching on a bowl of the largest cherries I have ever seen-strangely, they seem to have little arms and legs-Hey dude, stop bogarting that joint...

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), July 26, 2000.

Not "ALL veterans" of that era are pre-disposed to flashbacks Ra,some even kinda turned out quite normal ; )

capnfun, Im sure glad to hear that :>)

-- Ra (tion@l.1), July 26, 2000.

Truth Seeker:

Where IS Amari and why should I care what the Amaricans believe?

-- Monkey Spanker (monkeyspanker0@angelfire.com), July 26, 2000.

Truth Seeker quotes a lot of back up. I am curious as to why those who responded to his/her post automatically discounted the information. Why didn't you check the info-links first? Why did every one jump up and yell "fool" at the same time, without checking out the supposedly verification? Just because something has been done a certain way for 20 or more years, does not mean that was the way it was intended. Kind of like the "Whisper Game". Geez, talk about the "dumbing down" of people. The internet is wide open for research. Get off your laurels, do the research, prove or disprove what Truth Seeker claims. But come back with as much credibility and references as did the Truth Seeker.

-- 2nd Truth Seeker (forus@ll.com), July 26, 2000.

2nd:

Because I have read it once before and have seen it about 50 times. It is typical, undocumented www. garbage. Don't even read it anymore. If you are trolling for converts you will need to go elsewhere.

Have you ever heard of actual documentation [you know references that can be independently verified]. From the number of subjects covered, this would need at least a 1000 [this means real references that could be obtained in a library; not more web garbage].

Hope this helps.

xxxxxx

-- DB (Debunker@nomore.xxx), July 26, 2000.

Dear DB, I appreciate your response. Yes, it is true that a follow up to all those references would mean more that internet roulette. I have spent some time in a library which hosted specific documents, that others did not. In order to get to the original intent of a legislation, going back into the arguments that transpired back when. It is a lot of work, not to be undertaken by the feint of heart. I have done it, for another cause, I offered the challenge to others. Now, what was my last handle on this topic?

-- 2nd Truth Seeker (forus@ll.com), July 26, 2000.

I doubt that any fact stated in the post can be disproved. In fact I believe that all the statements can be proved valid. I also know that my neighbor pays someone $40 to mow his lawn which takes all of 40 minutes to mow. He pays for this every week because he feels that it is worth the expence. I think what I pay the government is cheep protection money. In fact I think it is much cheeper than what I might have to pay the mob or a gang in the inner city for fire protection.

I also know for a fact that a car can be driven on the public streets by an individual but a regestered motor vehical must have a liscensed operator and itself be liscensed. The question arises; do I want to spend potentialy hundreds of man hours fighting $40 or $50 per year in liscensing fees, or is 10 minutes a year for the renewal process and no money spent on court costs and all that time worth it? Yes I do believe it has to start somewhere, but not here and by me. I'll help but I won't lead.

BTW don't fall for the BS sales tax they are trying to replace our current system with. Look into it. Corps. won't pay it, you will. Right now in this country the top 5% pay over 75% of all the taxes payed and the rest of us pay 25% ( I think its more like 5% pays 90% but I don't feel like checking the facts) If the national sales tax is put into place that burden shifts far down the income range and WE will be paying the 90%. A family making 35k a year spends almost all of it on sales taxable items and a family making 2m an year can cut back to 500k a year in spending.

I also think it might be because the anti-taxers are winning so they are working to insure the governments revenue stream by this change. Keep up the good work and when this snowball gets far enough down the hill this is one snowflake that won't mind being picked up.

Argue the facts. Don't denigrate the person. This means you will actualy have to check the facts and then you will be a convert!

-- Just passin through (nobody@nowhere.com), July 27, 2000.

I am curious as to why those who responded to his/her post automatically discounted the information.

Probably because "truth seeker" spammed this same advertisement multiple times within the space of about an hour under different identities. This is usually done only by individuals who lack confidence in their own position and compensate for this by creating the illusion that multiple people are supporting their ideas.

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), July 27, 2000.

Armchair shrink are ye now? Its also done quite effectively for any product looking to sell to the masses. This is just a carry over from the most popular form of advertiseing on usenet newsgroups. And if you don't happen to have antispamming software you will find antismoking and porn site ads, among others, coming in from all sorts of addresses over a few days, all pointing back to the same company. So what. Look at the info and stop harping about the advertising stratagy. You don't have to buy to benefit, and if you don't want to see it, don't click on the link!

-- Just passin through (nobody@nowhere.com), July 27, 2000.

Armchair shrink are ye now?

Not currently.

Its also done quite effectively for any product looking to sell to the masses.

I have never seen spam to be used effectively for anything other than annoying people.

This is just a carry over from the most popular form of advertiseing on usenet newsgroups.

LOL! "popular" apparently meaning "most reviled." Go take a look at news.admin.net-abuse.usenet where they spend most of their time and energy trying to keep Usenet at least somewhat useable by eliminating spam.

And if you don't happen to have antispamming software you will find antismoking and porn site ads, among others, coming in from all sorts of addresses over a few days, all pointing back to the same company.

I've never seen an anti-smoking spam ad, but I have seen lots of porn site ads as well as loads of Get-Rich-Quick schemes. So, is the Save- A-Patriot fellowship proud of utilizing the tactics of a typical porn site or Get-Rich-Quick scam?

So what. Look at the info and stop harping about the advertising stratagy.

But the advertising strategy is part of the message they send. You even spent the first part of your post arguing how "effective" and "popular" it is. So, if we shouldn't be "harping" about it, then why argue about its effectiveness and popularity?

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), July 27, 2000.

I don't agree with it either, but it must work to the degree that its expected to as an advertising strategy or they wouldn't keep doing it. Cost/benefit ratio works because its so cheap to do. Help them stop making money from this means of advertising and they will go away. Or prove that they are being lied to (likely) by the marketing guys that tell them to do this.

Most advertising comes down to name recognition and that means that the more you see the ad, even if its anoying, the more likely you are to pick that product if you are in the market.

Open the doors to everyone and they will all come in. I thought it was aganst the law to sell on the internet (like amature radio) at one point and the restriction was lifted to promote commerce. I'd like to see that law return, except for the extreem increase in the price of admission to the information superhighway that would result. Business practices like this subsidise the internet to a great degree.

-- Just passin through (nobody@nowhere.com), July 27, 2000.

I don't agree with it either, but it must work to the degree that its expected to as an advertising strategy or they wouldn't keep doing it. Cost/benefit ratio works because its so cheap to do.

This is correct. It works because it is so inexpensive as to be free or nearly free. Thus, even if the rate of return on investment is so small as to be inconsequential, it is still worthwhile because the initial investment itself is so tiny. Still, you rarely, if ever, see legitimate business using this form of advertising despite the fact that it is so inexpensive. Clearly there is a reason for this.

Help them stop making money from this means of advertising and they will go away.

This is not as easy as it sounds given the fact that the cost of the advertising is so little that they need to make hardly any money in order to recoup their investment.

Or prove that they are being lied to (likely) by the marketing guys that tell them to do this.

In most cases, they are unconcerned whether they are being "lied to" because the business being advertised is rather shady to begin with.

Most advertising comes down to name recognition and that means that the more you see the ad, even if its anoying, the more likely you are to pick that product if you are in the market.

While this is generally true, I do not subscribe to the theory that "any publicity is good publicity." This is exactly why legitimate business have avoided using spam as a method of advertisement. Spamming has an extremely negative connotation and causes an immediate negative reaction towards those who use it.

Open the doors to everyone and they will all come in. I thought it was aganst the law to sell on the internet (like amature radio) at one point and the restriction was lifted to promote commerce. I'd like to see that law return, except for the extreem increase in the price of admission to the information superhighway that would result. Business practices like this subsidise the internet to a great degree.

Actually, this is not true. The business practice of spamming has not subsidised the internet in any way. In fact, in nearly every case, spamming is used by those who not only falsify their return address and headers, but hijack unknowing servers in order to evade the built- in limitations most administrators have placed on their own servers. In effect, they are stealing access from servers for which they have no business and deliberately violating the bandwidth restrictions placed on them in order to "get their message out." This is far from a legitimate business practice and only serves to put more of a strain on servers and the network in general.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem at all with business and advertising on the Internet. Banner ads and such are perfectly reasonable, as far as I'm concerned. Spam, however, is another matter entirely.

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), July 27, 2000.

So paul milne has returned to seek suckers. He can't get any takers, so he uses his old tactic of answering himself as thoughtful as he can (possing as another poster, 2nd truth seeker)

Ah, paul, you are so pathetic....but you are funny! Why not move to russia or iraq if you hate "Amarica" so much?

-- Maul Pilne (fedMISinfo@hell.infects), July 27, 2000.

Ah, Ha, Maul Pilne, I caught you! I am NOT the original Paul, he is probably tending his sheep or whatever. I am not his relative, I do not even know where he/she lives (probably in the desert). You are a lier and a thief.......

-- 2ns Truth Seeker (forus@ll.com), July 27, 2000.

2nd, 2nd, remedial....

-- 2nd Truth Seeker (forus@ll.com), July 27, 2000.