I am approaching the point of no return and I would like to hear the opinions of my fellow countrymen and homesteaders on the following statements of grievence. I did not write them but I hold them to be self-evident and request your thoughts ? 1. They have erected a multitude of new offices and sent swarms of officers to harass our citizens (farming,taxes,schools). 2. Thy have kept amoung us, in times of peace, large standing armies without the consent of our legislatures( case in point --the capture of 35 Belgian troops in Montana, without passport or visa ) 3. They have affected to render the military independent of-and superior to the civil power. ( Janet Reno, Ron Hordichi, ATF and FBI HRT teams). 4. They have combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction that is foriegn to our Constitution. ( U.N. troops and law that will allow them to act against our citizens). 5. They have quartered large bodies of troops amoung us.(no real need for a peace time force that neither works or helps the citizens). 6.(and this is the kicker) They have protected them(the military and Justice dept.),by mock trial, from punishment from any murders that they should commit on the people of these states. (Ruby Ridge, Waco and many others to numerous to mention). This will be the text of the vote to combine the militia's. I am leaning on taking the Army of Northern Virginia along these lines as I believe them to be as apparent as the sunrise--Can you proof these charges to be false ? Is there any rational defense for our government ? I lay it at your feet for discussion and await your reply. Joel Rosen

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), July 15, 2000

Answers

Joel: While I admire your courage, commitment and sincerity, to be honest my friend, you're fighting a losing battle.

A friend of mine, who will be soon getting out of prison, was challenging the constitutionality of the income tax. I think he was probably right in doing so but I sincerely doubt he would ever find a court to uphold him. He was paying his taxes as were other people in his group, but he was being a pain in the butt. To make a long story short, his home was raided by the IRS and ATF (allegedly he was keeping an arsenal- info falsely supplied by informant). His personal papers, computers, etc were confiscated and disposed of before he was ever charged with anything. These days the constitution is a mere inconvenience if big brother wants you.

I don't know the answer or remedy to the obvious abuses of governmental power except to demand integrity and transparency from our socalled public servants. And demand from them a sweeping campaign finance reform package which disallows or severely limits contributions from corporations and the extremely wealthy and re- empower the common citizen. Only then will we begin to have a government worthy of its founders.

Anyway, be careful and be wise.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), July 15, 2000.

John, if we are going to demand integrity from our public servants, we must first, as a nation, have it ourselves. If we did have it, we would have people in office, or be able to find people to elect, who did have it. A people who lack integrity inevitably fall under God's judgement, whether by natural catastrophe, tyranny growing from within, or conquerors coming from without. Maybe the people of this country need to experience tyranny and disaster to get them to wake up and turn back to God.

Joel, you are right in your post on all points, and I agree with John, be careful, and be wise. It will be a very unequal battle if you decide to fight, a battle that the government will probably win. That doesn't mean we don't fight, but be prepared for the likely cost. As the Bible says, before you start something, count the cost, and be sure you will be able to finish. The only defense for our government is that God uses those in authority over us for His purposes. We may not understand that purpose now, but one day we will. I think the best way to reform the government is to reform the people of this country, to have a revival of true faith and trust in God, and a return to Bible standards for how we live every day. Without that, Joel, even if the militias won the fight, they would have gained nothing, and we might actually be worse off than we are now. (Look at other countries with battles for control going on -- never mind that they don't have our Constitution and our history. The ONE thing we HAD that made us different, and in many ways better, was a more-or-less nationwide belief in and obedience to God. We don't have that anymore, so have no solid foundation to rebuild our beloved country.) So, Joel, I will be praying for wisdom for you and the others involved in the militias. I hope you are praying, also. Because, as I know you are aware, whichever way this thing goes, there will be profound repercussions for all of us for a long time.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), July 15, 2000.

Joel, I, like you am extremely frustrated at the government's constant ebbing away at our freedom. I am also extremely frustrated by the American people who refuse to see what is happening. The FBI's new carnivore progarm is soon going to be in place to seek out us supposed terrorists, who happen to believe in freedom. I know what is coming, but even still I want to give the system a chance to work. This is not the same country we lived in eight years ago. I believe that soon Americans will begin to feel the constraints placed upon them by our corrupt government. I believe people are beginning to realize that their rights are ebbing away. Hopefully this can be turned around. I am waiting for some kind of defining moment, maybe a little idealistically. I am willing to sit by for the time being and let things develop in the hopes of future change. For the time being I will work to build something for my children. I will work to raise a new generation that values freedom. Here, I maybe fighting a losing battle, but then I have four children. If nothing else I can out- procreate the liberals and then school them in the values of freedom. The homeschooling movement in this country gives me hope. I believe these children are the seeds of a more moral, more upright society. Raised outside of the brainwashing of public schools, they are the future thinkers of America. The liberal tyrranny that is trying to control this country, won this battle in the schools. We will take this country back outside of them. Don't make the mistake of thinking that they aren't afraid. They are. Our homeschooled children are the wild cards, they can't control. There is more than one way to fight this system, Joel. Remember the underground railroad. Change sometimes happens by not getting noticed. The key here is to maintain a low profile, by being proactive in teaching freedom. The more individual we are for now the harder it is for them to get rid of what we believe in. I am not saying that the time is not coming for action. I am saying that we all must bide our time and give freedom a chance to infiltrate people's minds. When we get together in groups, and give ourselves a name, we open the way for defeat before we even start. Like that militia man a few weeks ago, he called attention to himself and paid the price. His men paid the price. Individualism is the key here. If we each work as individuals for the cause of freedom, if we each promote freedom as individuals, if we are not bound together by anything but ideas, we will rule the day. The time to bind together may come someday, but for now we must spread the cause quietly.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), July 15, 2000.

Nope..cannot change your mind, I agree with you..the government is walking down the wrong path.I believe from your earlier posts that i disagree with your solution to the problem...My view is that the government, as it was designed, is the best form of government on the face of the earth..it has been corrupted by immoral, self-serving individuals, and COULD be changed from within by folks like you being placed into office....If folks like you would only run for office before it's too late..I do not feel it is too late at all...If we all scream "power to the people"...we just get arrested and silenced...a person IN power can quietly say, "power to the people" and it happens.Change is insidious, for good or bad...I would like to see some good folks change things for the better, keeping the form of government that we have...so, Joel, why not run for Governor or Senator from your state??? I am serious...Nobody thought Jesse Ventura would win did they???? Go for it!!!!God bless.

-- Lesley (martchas@gateway.net), July 15, 2000.

Kathleen: You say "John, if we are going to demand integrity from our public servants, we must first, as a nation, have it ourselves. If we did have it, we would have people in office, or be able to find people to elect, who did have it"

I don't disagree with the above however the way the system is now, we are truly a nation divided and the powers that be like it that way. People of integrity, and I believe there are some out there, wouldn't touch politics with a ten foot pole, because they are probably wise enuf to know they would be a voice in the wilderness. Why do you think there's such resistance to meaningful campaign finance reform, from both sides of the aisle?

I think part of it has to do with the revolving door in congress. Loose your seat and become a lobbyist for your campaign contributers. The money is such a corrosive, corrupting influence, that its hard to escape.

Assume a common, sensible person with integrity was running for congress. For the sake of discussion lets also assume they were in a party which you do not normally support. First, they need to get their message out and they are hamstrung without big money. Where do they get it? Its either nickels and dimes from the commoners who want clean government or big chunks from people who have their own agendas. The choice becomes sell-out and maybe win or stick to your guns and lose by a landslide to the monied candidate. Would you vote for them if they were from a party you don't normally support? Then there's the mudslinging. Who do you believe? It seems the one with the most financial backing is most likely to survive the public scrutiny.

Its not a simple issue when we look at the big picture but it is a simple issue when looked at from a viewpoint of right and wrong.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), July 15, 2000.

Joel;

No argument or rebuttals but as Kathleen said, until we change the heart and soul of this country nothing can be done to stop the slide that we are on. We have become a nation of self serving souless people that are driven by no more than greed and avarice. Until we can change that, there is nothing to save. Awhile back we had a brief discussion on the price of warfare and the result of taking a human life. As you know this is not a matter of slight consequence and the price, when once paid, can never be returned. The only way to truly affect change in this country is for the people to change to a nation that cares not only for itself but everyone around us. I agree with Little Bit, I am striving to raise my 6 children to beleive in God and freedom and to avoid the pitfalls of the "public education" mind control that we have in our public schools.

Go with God my friend, I pray that all turns out as you wish and you can find peace and happiness in this life.

Jim

-- Jim Tanner (tanner_jim@hotmail.com), July 17, 2000.

Just one quote, (1Peter 2:13-25), "Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as supreme authroity, or to governors, who are sent by hims to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover up for evil; live as servants of God. Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honour the king. Slaves, submits yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. For it is commendable if a man beras up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his step. 'He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.' When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. INstead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls."

The main part of the passage I wanted you to see was the first part, but I thought it might be good to include the whole of it. God bless!

-- Abigail F. (treeoflife@sws.nb.ca), July 17, 2000.

I appreciate your conviction Joel, but shouldn't you prove these allogations to be true before you call on others to prove they're false?

1.) "New offices and swarms of officers." Yep. We've got a new Fed building going up down here. It's meant to replace the ancient one that's vastly too small to serve it's purpose. Should have been done 20 years ago, but that's the Feds for you. I haven't seen any of the harrasing officers you mentioned either. Nor have any of my neighbors or anyone else I know. The vast majority of gov. employees in that new building will be just like the old; mostly paper shufflers; but I'm sure terribly sinister paper shufflers at that, but apparently they really don't care how many guns my neighbors and I own. A substantial arsenal I might add; all legal of course.

2.) "Large standing armys without state legislature approval." Show me where in the constitution it says that our state legislatures have any control over how large the standing army should be. While you're at it, show some real proof that 35 Belgian troops were found in Montana. Belgians....now there's a scary, sinister bunch. Concerning our large standing army, I'll get to that one in a moment.

3.) "Independant military superior to civil power." I don't believe the ATF, FBI or other functions of Justice are associated with the US Military. Totally different departments. Now I'll agree that the ATF, IRS, FBI gets a bit big for their britches at times, but give some real proof that they are currently "independent of and superior to civil power". I think you'll be hard pressed, other than the Great Two Incidents on which your argument stands. They've both been rained in considerably since those blunders by those civil powers they are supposedly superior to. By the way, our military is not beholding to any politician or political party. Though they are under the command of the CandC, the oath is to protect and defend the Constitution.

4.) "Subject us to a jurisdiction, foreign from our Constitution." Again, prove that there are mad Belgian/UN commandos running around in Montana. Isn't Belgian commandos an oxymoron? From what we've seen of UN troops so far, I use the term troops very loosely, they are certainly not to be feared.

5.) "Quartered large bodies of troops amoung us" The original greivance back before the Revolution was that the Brits quartered troops in the homes of American citizens. Prove that that is currently the case. As for their "work" (now that REALLY ticks me off!!!!) and help to citizens, had our military not been mobilized as it was the past 50 years until the build down started under Bush we'd all be speaking Russian as the official language. I think in the last 224 years the boys in uniform have done quite a bit of "work", bleeding and dying so that you can state on a public forum your wish to form a milita of sorts. Actually our standing army is a good deal smaller than it was as recent as the Gulf War. Had it been much smaller, which you seem to advocate, the recent complaining I've seen on this forum about higher gas prices wouldn't have occured since we'd be held hostage to prices far, far higher.

6.) "protected from punshment by mock trials" In the case of Ruby Ridge, the scapegoats caught all the grief. That's certainly nothing new. It's been going on like that for decades when the Gov. really screws up. Waco. Seems to me the evidence is that the Branch Davidians started the fire, according to testimoney by a Texas Ranger who investigated for the State of Texas, seperate from the Fed investigation. Then again, maybe he just said that so he could receive the $2.0M and the 1000 acre ranch outside Lubbock. Is there really THAT many people in on this conspiracy?

Again I appreciate your conviction, but if we who think the Goverment is going down the wrong path would direct that tremendous energy into electing candidates who share our views, we'd all be a lot better off. The system still works if we do our part to make it work, run for office, work mightly in campaigns of those we want elected, make our wishes known without any ambiguty to our elected officials. That's not directed at you Joel, but one look at how many registered voters actually show up at the polls in May, August or November is one of the big problems.

-- Steve in TN (lynswim@mindspring.com), July 17, 2000.

i am not sure what your solution is but i think we (the last two presidential elections) have brought it upon our selves. as i remember many of the senators on exit polling after the impeachment trial in the senate felt that clinton was guilty they just didn't think he deserved to be taken from office. i still believe to change we need to use the system but the system does need to be used. i also believe that God is setting something up. i am not the scholar like many people on this forum are but one of the verses i think that describes both clinton and our allowing him to still be in office is Psalm 12:8 "the wicked freely strut about when what is vile is honored among men" i think the first describes clinton and the last the senate in their vote on impeachment. our govenment is out of hand but i don't see a violent soulution working at this time but maybe the answer in the future. for now i think we must act in this election. i also think that those of us who worry about our govenment must commit to not only casting our ballots but education of the masses by running for office ourselves. would like to continue to hear your thoughts but please be careful as we have to many martyars already we need people like you to keep watch and report. just be careful. gail

-- gail missouri ozarks (gef123@hotmail.com), July 17, 2000.

I have a couple of things to add. Firstof all for Abigail. I have thought and prayed upon the verses in God's word that speak to the subject at hand. This is what I'v come up with. First of all we live under a completely different sort of government than any that existed at that time. We live under a democratic republic. It is in the foundation of our government that the power of the government is derived from the consent of the governed. It is also foundational that citizens have the right to set up new government or change the existing when when the old no longer meets their needs. This is the basis of the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution. If any christians had to deal with this it was our forefathers. I am not under a king. Our forefather's beliefs more than likely mirrored my own, which leads to my second point. These verses were not speaking of political change they were speaking of the Christian reaction to persecution. As christians we are to submit when under persecution for our faith, even as Christ did before Pilate. Steven also submitted to abuse and death for his faith. This is completely different than standing by and doing nothing when powerful men break the laws that govern us. The laws are being broken. I also want to speak to the writer of the following : ""Independant military superior to civil power." I don't believe the ATF, FBI or other functions of Justice are associated with the US Military. Totally different departments. Now I'll agree that the ATF, IRS, FBI gets a bit big for their britches at times, but give some real proof that they are currently "independent of and superior to civil power". I think you'll be hard pressed, other than the Great Two Incidents on which your argument stands. They've both been rained in considerably since those blunders by those civil powers they are supposedly superior to. By the way, our military is not beholding to any politician or political party." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I think it is safe to say that there is not much difference between these organizations and the military. If I call an orange an apple does that make it any less an orange? If so perhaps I can call my money a crop and not have to pay taxes on it. I could also call my guns stuffed bunnies and not register them. What a great idea why can't we all just call our stuff something different something different like the government does? Perhaps then we might be as free to live our lives as they are to make trouble for us.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), July 17, 2000.

I tried to post this yesterday! The gremlins wouldn't let me so here it is today.

Joel, there is no reasonable defense for the government and the actions against the citizens they have taken. The Waco ruling is just another stick on the brushpile that is soon to ignite. I find myself like LilBit, awaiting a defining moment so to speak. I do not know that it is forthcoming. I haven't heard a grunt of indignation regarding the verdict on the Waco murders.

I don't think that this system can be salvaged, but I still hope. I agree with an earlier post that the original system is the best ever, not perfect, because nithing man can do would be perfect, however the words that always stick with me are "a more perfect union"...fallibility is implied, but it is not to be tolerated as we are tolerating the trashing of our GOD GIVEN rights.

I am ready for whatever may come. I don't wish to see war, but if it happens, I know I will fight on the right side. People are waking up slowly, probably much too slowly. I already find the governance to be intolerable, all the hoops and lack of regard for rightness and justice.

I am thinking that underground societies are the future of the freedom loving minority in this country. There will be a time when we must coalesce, and fight this monster in a somewhat organized manner. We are in dire need of real leaders. However, we cannot risk premature and overt action as any participants will be rounded up and incapacitated, through incarceration or media sanctioned death.

Somehow, we must make a stand and get our voices heard. Do we send our own personal declaration of independence to our oppressors? Dare we throw that back in their faces and demand acknowledgement? Are we at the point where we are willing to risk what we have or do we still want to hold onto it because it's not quite that bad yet? I don't remember the exact quote, but T. Jefferson said something akin to people will stay under an evil and corrupt system as long as it is tolerable.

Because we as a society have not had to fight for our freedoms we have taken them for granted and allowed them to be infringed upon so long as we are kept comfortable. We have behaved like very docile cattle in so many ways. So long as we have our conveniences we will not stand up. The day the tv goes blank is my best guess for the start of the "revolution" if you will. Comfort zone is the key.

We are dumbed down and for the most part unaware of the tyranny we are living under, but it really doesn't take too large of a number to reclaim the country. They (the government) have done it without many participants. Double speak and control of the news has allowed this to happen, it is up to us to undo that and expose the "plot".

You just did that in this post and the many others you have submitted. You are making a difference.Thank you.

-- Doreen (livinginskin@yahoo.com), July 17, 2000.

Joel: I don't mean to steal your thunder here as this was your thread which asked a question. I'm responding to one of the responses which illustrates very well what my second response pointed out, that is the divisiveness.

One response basically said the country started to go down hill in the last eight years. Bullshit! The dramatic erosion of civil liberties started, imo, in the Reagan years and has continued to decline since then. Another lays all the blame on the "liberals". C'mon people! Open your eyes and try at least for some objectivity.

Its convenient to say the liberals made us the way we are. Its also convenient to say the conservatives made us the way we are. Round and round we go with no end in sight for the divisiveness. Granted, some of the liberal ideas I think are completely nuts and out of touch with reality just as some of the conservative ideas are. Despite the rhetoric to the contrary, they would each happily sell us out to the highest bidder.

Some gripe about "the liberal media". More bs, parroting people like Pat Robertson, Rush Limbaugh, etc. If the media was so liberal you wouldn't be hearing them on the media.

Its all fine and good to use the bible as a source of inspiration, strength and guidance but there is a reason why theres a division between church and state. I believe, within in our heart of hearts, regardless of religious persuasion, deep within us there is a moral compass which seems to get lost in the heat of political discourse.

Both liberal and conservative, I believe, thirst after rightousness and bottom line, would agree that lieing, thievery, murder, rape, fraud, numerous acts of agression are evil, regardless of religous affiliation. Evil is evil, regardless of motivation. Liberal and conservative alike have the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness and it seems extremely unlikely to me that one side is all right and the other all wrong. But instead of listening to the other side with respect and an open mind and heart we assert our differences rather than seeking common ground. That behavior pattern is the fast track to hell as far as I'm concerned.

We all need food to eat, clothes on our back, fresh air to breathe, and the right to live in peace on an uncontaminated planet. I think God would agree with that. All else is secondary. The recognition of that simple concept should put the divisiveness behind us, but it won't. Some will find it necessary to split hairs and assert their way is the only way and we go round and round again. If we don't learn from history we're doomed to repeat it and we will because we don't.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), July 17, 2000.

Since I wrote the eight year post, I think I'll respond. I was not in any way intimating that the erosion of liberty started eight years ago. In fact, I think it has been evolving since the turn of the century. I do however, feel that in the last eight years the snowball has gotten unbelieveably bigger. Perhaps though the snowball just rolled out of the trees where we could all see it.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), July 18, 2000.

I agree with Jhon Leakes last post and am reminded of the sight of Jon Jon Kennedy at his fathers funeral, I wonder how he felt about losing his father just because someone didnt agree with his politics. He must have missed him terribly.

-- kathy h (saddlebronc@msn.com), July 18, 2000.

John, what you speak of is the different worldview each holds. Liberlism vs Conservatism. Im sure we all know the differences involved in each worldview, so I will not go into that. But I will say as a conservative christian it is not possible for me to "compromise" my core beliefs. Not in the area of public policy. In my personal life, yes. I can and do treat each person I meet as a distinct and unique individual made in the image of God. I can grieve for what I believe to be their deception. But as for patterning our government after the worldview of liberlism....no! I have often wished it were possible to take, oh maybe, 5 or 6 states and declare them "The Liberal States of The United States of America". Gun control, abortion on demand, gay rights, confiscation of personal property for any reason their government sees fit. High taxes, taken from those who work hard and given to those who have made other choices, that do not involve hard work and sacrifice! Federalized daycare, public education institutions from birth to .....? Lots, and lots of regulations to prevent the killing/cutting/maiming of anything not human..trees,slugs, etc... All choices made by the citizenry is equal in value, and to say or think otherwise is punishable be fine or prison. Oh, and we must not forget... to worship God is tolerated as long as all peoples have access to him thru whatever means they choose. Women, feminist women, will always h ave "protected status" and as such will be free from critism and disagreement from any quarter! EEEE GADS, I have just decribed US! Now what? You see, there are things so fundamental to the well being of a people and a free nation that to compromise would be, in essence, to contribute to the downfall of a once great nation! I am of two minds here and it pains me to be so. Joel, I agree so strongly with both Kathleen and Little Bit, and others who have suggested our ultimate hope is in our children. And that we, the citizenry, are the problem! We can, and lots of us are, training up our children in light of God's Word. That they might recognize truth, and discern the value of attributes that contribute to a great and free nation. This is for God's Glory, not man's. That to live under His principles and be governed accordingly brings about natural blessings. To do otherwise will bring about the ruin of a people. No, I am not talking about forced christianity, that is not possible. We are all given a CHOICE. But the principles He has laid out are for ALL people. The second thought I have is like many others have stated, if the people are so lazy, unconcerned and greedy, what good will it do to ??????? I do not know the answer. I, also, seem to find myself waiting for a defining moment. When we can no longer worship our God? Educate our own children? Forced to turn over our guns? I do not know. And to add to my confusion I know there is coming a time when all nations will come together, in peace, and be ruled by one! For this to happen, the United States will have had to have been rendered somewhat useless!?!! I am sorry Joel, I do not seem to be of much help in this. I, too, will be praying for you as I continue to search for the answer. Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), July 18, 2000.

Joel, You know I agree with your assesment of our government, but as you can tell from your own post, they have no qualms about eliminating any people who loudly disagree. I wonder if a nonviolent form of protest would not be far better, it would at least give you time to have your say before they killed you. and they would kill you, the government has turned into this huge parasite, that feeds off the population. Politics are a joke and they are all bought and paid for, I don't care what their political organization is called. Please do not throw your life away, guns are for killing, do your battles with words and truth, that is the real you and you can make a difference. You have given everyone on this forum food for thought. you can do the same on a much larger scale. I can not think of any ordinary person who would not agree with you. Please do not do anything foolish, you have your wife and children who need you. karen

-- Karen Mauk (dairygoatmama@hotmail.com), July 18, 2000.

Little Bit...it sounds as if you are saying that the Bible isn't applicable today! But if you notice, the fisrt thing this passge says is, "Submit to EVERY authority instituted among men". This means submit, UNLESS it is requiring you to sin. If the government decides to make a law against homeschooling, making it illegal, I will not obey, because I firmly believe that God states in His Word, to teach our children. It is not up to us to punish those who break the law. Let us leave that to the ultimate authority and Judge.

-- Abigail F. (treeoflife@sws.nb.ca), July 18, 2000.

Dear Joel, You make me angry because you appear to be hell-bent on getting yourself killed. You have shown by your thoughtful and considerate posts that you have excellent writing talents. I actually sympathize with your frustrations and injustices, but your tactics are, well, ill-advised. Your mind appears almost made up regardless of what anyone says, but here goes, since, as you say "I'm approaching the point of no return".

Get yourself elected or appointed as the recording secretary of the coordinating group that intends to combine the militias. Be their publicist or spokesperson. The six points you listed as their voting text? It's dribble. It's junk. It's doggy doo-doo. My teen-age daughter writes better civic papers in study-hall. And so can you. I was going to post a point-by point rebuttal of the six points, but Steve in TN beat me to it. And I might add, much more eloquently. So get in the driver's seat, Joel. Or at least be part of a steering committee. Establish a web-site. Go public. Broaden your base. ESTABLISH SOME CREDIBILITY! The Feds are on to you anyway, right. So what the heck. Do you honestly think that several hundred (thousand) men who claim to be part of a people's militia are going to slink around unnoticed? Any idiot can fire a gun. The smart ones know how to influence public opinion and institutions without firing a shot.

One of your heros appears to be Patrick Henry. He's remembered for what he said and wrote not who he shot at, isn't he? Want more. Ghandi threw the British out of India without firing a shot. How about Martin Luther King? He sparked a social revolution that swept the country. No Guns. No bombs. And last, but not least, Jesus Christ. He didn't exactly storm into Jerusalem in a Roman war chariot, did he? But he DID stare down the powers that be with his words and example. So there you are.

What has this militia combining organization written that is clear and concise? And where is it posted? Do they have a vision? Do they have ANY goal greater than shooting back at "them"? Be very careful or you'll find yourself aligned with skinheads, neo-nazis and other white supremist organizations. They will want to ride your coat tails. They will use your anti-government stance to push their own agendas. Remember what I said about the press? If they're not on your side, one well placed editorial can destroy all the firepower you can muster.

Would you consider the words of another great American, General George Patton?

"No one ever won a war by dying for his country. You make the other poor b*st*rd die for HIS country."

So, stay well, Joel. You are of greater service to your country alive than dead. If this sounds like a rant, you're right. You are worth a lot more than a bullet through the brain.

With all due respect, (you knucklehead) :)

(:raig

-- Craig Miller (CMiller@ssd.com), July 18, 2000.

Dear Joel: One day while in heartfelt prayer for our country, the Lord gave me Psalm 2. Read it and take courage, because for all the demonic news we see, there is a SOMEONE in charge. God Bless, Norma Lucas

-- NormaLucas (trooper806@webtv.net), July 18, 2000.

Little Bit: You say "In fact, I think it has been evolving since the turn of the century." Interesting. Also about the time of the industrial revolution, No?

"I do however, feel that in the last eight years the snowball has gotten unbelieveably bigger." How so?

---------------------------------------------------------

Wendy: You say, "But I will say as a conservative christian it is not possible for me to "compromise" my core beliefs."

I'm not suggesting you or anyone else do. What I am suggesting is that we honor the intent of the framers of the constitution and declaration of independence, which implicitly respects the native intelligence and the natural law of self determination, and allow for people to make their own decisions and live their own lives they way they see fit, provided they do no harm to another and permit the same for others.

"All choices made by the citizenry is equal in value, and to say or think otherwise is punishable be fine or prison. Oh, and we must not forget... to worship God is tolerated as long as all peoples have access to him thru whatever means they choose."

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. Please explain.

"Women, feminist women, will always have "protected status" and as such will be free from critism and disagreement from any quarter!"

Agreed! No one should have protected status and everyone should have it. By that I mean, we are all people with all the stated needs I mentioned earlier. Feminists, gays, men and women of all colors and religions, all the same, treated equally under law. No exceptions.

"I, also, seem to find myself waiting for a defining moment."

Personally, I don't believe such a defining moment will ever come, because the left will be saying one thing about the moment and the right will be saying the opposite and the people will remain polarized, which, like I said before, is right where "they" want us.

I don't remember where I read this but it had to do with the last days of Rome. The Roman senate basically agreed that it was a good thing to keep the people occupied with various entertainments so the government could go about their dirty work and no one would pay any attention. Consider the popularity of sports these days. Kinda makes you wonder, doesn't it?

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), July 18, 2000.

You know I am not even going to try to change your mind. You know why~ its people like you and my Nieghbors from Hell( for those people that gave me ideas on the forum on how to deal with them.) That make the Government MAKE more laws. IF people were kind to each other, showed manners even when they are in a hurry. Help out the Elders in your towns that cannot do much for themelves, to help people down on their luck without question. To teach our children that Violence solves nothing,, to be kind to one another and honor your elders. So tired of people crying,,, ME~ME~ME~ blumin whining about what they want and what they don`t like or need. If you don`t like a law become a Whip or lobbist.. you are more likely to change a law that way. Don`t you think we have enough Voilence in the world today, why add more. If you have not traveled the world,, I guess you would be narow minded enough to hate this country.. but guess what folks,, we have A LOT OF FREEDOM. More so than any other country in the world. Hell this country all the Killers, rapists, vandels, the people that think the laws are only for other people get away with all the bad things they do, they seem to have all the rights. I find a big problem with that. The people cry to the government to fix their problems,, which by all means they cannot do,,, then when the govenment helps the best they can you complain about it. If people would just be kind, follow the rules,,, guess what, the government would be out of business.... The USA would be a much better place. But the only people can change the way things are now,, but all I see is people complaining. I don`t know why I waste these words,,, your mind has already been made up. But I would much rather do the best I can and help those I can,, than complain about what the government does or doesn`t do.

-- Bergere (autumnhaus@aol.com), July 18, 2000.

Well, lts of food for thought --Thank each of you ! Special Thanks to Steve in Tn for a opposing view. I'm going to run quickly as I can thru these--John, yes I understand political prisoners--the ones we the peple don't have. Yeah right--we have thousands ! Thank You for your kind words, Kathleen. LBF, my friend--we can hide no longer. We must open up be honest and show our disapproval. I think the law states that we can use equal force to overcome an assailant ? An army for an army ? Jim Tanner, Thank You-- I do hope we get a chance to sit down and talk on my way to Iowa in the fall--if the offer is still open ? bigail (future prime minister of Canada ?) I do not think the text refers to sharing a bed with men of criminal behavior patterns but thank you. Lesley, that is the reason I cannot run for office--when you lay down with pigs, you begin to inherit a pigs traits. Same goes withthieves, liars and murderers. Now Steve The goverment has a agency for every part of my life--alcohol, tobacco, firearms, child welfare,cars,boats,planes,electricity, telephone and FARMING ! These are erected ofices with swarms of officers. 2. The colonists hated a standing army over their heads, I hate it also ! The man that wrote these charges was Thomas Jefferson with a footnote that we would need to use them again. Show me where-you said ? He said-- Free and Independent states--free to choose every aspect of their lives a FREE and INDEPENDENT STATES ! 2.The Belgian incident was covered by 60 minutes 5 to 8 years ago. My memory fails me, but I remember Mike Wallace got scared and ended his interview with the militia because they were too heavily armed. If it bothered efferson that Britian had a peacetime standing army than he would be starting militias over this one also. 3. The patches on the arms of the FBI's HRT teams read like a who's who of special forces--Delta, 101st Airborne and Rangers. The hand picked assassin squads of Janet. As witnessed at the trial of Ron Horduchi in Boise, Idaho, a federal agent cannot be charged with a crime while he is on duty. (mock trial). Janetis the biggest serial killer of the decade but the Senate spanked her hand and allowed her to kill again--MOCK TRIAL !! Hard pressed to name more--no--Yorhi Kahl, Gordon Kahl, Claude Dallas and The Order. I have more ! 4. I am afraid of any foriegn army on our soil and Billy bob Clinton signed a law allowing them to come if he needs them to counter act a militia larger than his standing army.5. We pay for countless Military Bases where young men train to be soldiers. They also drink all night party every weekend, getting local girls pregnant --than leave. We are paying for the worlds biggest orgy and party. The least they could do is: pick up the litter they leave on the road, pave roads, clean the public buildings--or something useful. The Gulf War ? Oh yeah--The Great Bombing fireworks exhibit followed by a picnic to feed the starving enemy--I remember now. Where is the head of the wolf you went to hunt ? Still in power, you say ? What happened to the great white hunter ? 6. Yes, the Senate had two mock trials for Janet Reno. Good ole Janet--th woman takes enough prescribed medication to put an elephant down but they spanked her hand and sent her to kill again. She almost scored some more notches in Miami. She was so disappointed ! I appreceite your post, I mean that sincerely. The following is my attempt at humor. Who would you have me vote for--Daddies boy 1 or 2, neither honest, neither has ethics. Tommorow, Tommorow, there is always tommorow, it's only an election away Same Criminal Crap--Different 4 Years ! Kathy--I miss Kennedy also and that statement--"To those whom much is given, much is required" I miss many men including Patrick Henry ! Craig--nice post Thank You Thomas Jefferson would be disappointed that you thought his words were doggy doo doo. You'll find many of your suggestions in my decision--- The Sons of Virginia are ready to unite with all Militia's on the following terms--We dis-allow membership to hate groups such as, The Ku Klux Klan, The Order, The Ayrian Brotherhood and The Nazi's. Virginia stands with you but will not allow--threats of violence upon the duly sworn officers of this country, acts of terrorism or acts of theft of land. It is our hope that a standing army larger than that of the government will lend authority to our unanswered cries for equality and justice. If war should ever come--Virginia means to stand alone as a result of any change in government (I quote) " Cesaer had his Brutus, King George had his 13 colonies and the 106th Congress of these United States has it's Militias--if this be treason--MAKE THE MOST OF IT " !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), July 18, 2000.

This answer is for Abigail. I did not say that the Bible was not applicable to today. Go back and re-read my post. I said that the way our government is set up it is our responsibilty, since we ARE the authority to respond when the government exceeds the law. I believe in submitting to the authority instituted among men. Just what is that authority? The authority in this case is the Constitution, The Bill of Rights, and the Declaration of Independence. Those are the founding laws of this nation. Those documents declare that the people of the United states is where the authority comes from. Therefore, when those laws are broken, It is my responsibily as one who is in authority to respond to them because, as that same verse says God gave us the power to fight evil. It says "as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evil doers" Under our system of Justice, the people sent are us. Therefore God has given us a great gift and a great responsibility, to stand for righteousness in a way no countrymen of that time was free to do. We are not under a king, we are under ourselves, under God. Therefore when our government sins so do we. When our government kills children indiscriminately, we are responsible. When our government kills people on the other side of the world, we are responsible. When our government lies, cheats, and steals, we are responsible. So you see not only do I think God's word applies here, I think that it applies in much more intimate ways than you do. If indeed god placed into our hands the responsibility of determining our own government and where it went, are we not that much more responsible when we passively sit by while it commits eveil acts. Remember the story of the Talents. To him who is given much, much is required.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), July 18, 2000.

Joel, I truly like you! I am sitting here giggling at the words of Thomas Jefferson being called doggie doo doo. I just want to say that I am not for hiding. I am for biding my time for the right moment. I will tell you this, if ever I was to fight such a battle(or to cook for one as the case maybe), I hope I would be blessed to do it for and with men such as you. I know my husband and my son's would stand behind such a noble cause, and they wouldn't be carrying muskets either. I would be proud to defend the Constitution, and would count myself blessed to be able to stand for freedom in the most basic sense of the words. God Bless America!

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), July 18, 2000.

John, I will try and further elaborate on my earlier post. In regards to all choices made by the citizens is equal in value.... this suggests there are no standards. Any and all choices are valid and equal in worth. Marriage, with children - Unmarried, with children...equal. Man & Woman equals marriage, Man & Man equals marriage, however we choose to define it, so it becomes. It is one thing when people make their choices in privacy, we live and let live and try to point to a better way. But when our government sanctions and encourages this, it becomes everyones business. We are then faced with the choice of accepting or rejecting this type of worldview, particularly as our taxes are being used to prop up and sustain these social maneuverings. As to the reference regarding worship of God, this reflects the current mindset that all paths to God are acceptable and equal. Those who believe that Jesus is the only way, are considered hatefilled, narrowminded, know-it-alls, and are NOT to be tolerated. In regards to your statement "provided they do no harm to another and permit the same for others". Again, we are talking about our system of government and what it upholds and values. Life? (abortion) Liberty (erosion of individual freedoms) Justice? (pleeease). I grieve for my country, I do not hate it. I pray for our leaders and the people. I agree with Little Bit that we are held accountable for the sins of our self-governing form of government, if that be the case, what then are we duty bound to do? Thanks John for the opportunity to explain my position further, I know from other posts that we disagree strongly on many issues, but I enjoy your thought process and respect your ability to convey your position on this and other issues. Wendy

-- wjl7 (wjl7@hotmail.com), July 18, 2000.

Wendy: Thanks for clearing those things up.

Re: Your "It is one thing when people make their choices in privacy, we live and let live and try to point to a better way."

In a general sense I agree. For example I find the "gay lifestyle" aberrant at best, however it is a choice some people make. I don't have to like it, participate in it or support it in any way whatsoever, but I feel its necessary to respect the right of others make that choice in a free country and I agree with you, its best to pray about it and set an example.

Re: your "But when our government sanctions and encourages this, it becomes everyones business. We are then faced with the choice of accepting or rejecting this type of worldview, particularly as our taxes are being used to prop up and sustain these social maneuverings."

Respecting the right of others to have that world view is whats necessary, not accepting or rejecting the view itself don't you think? If by sanctioning it you mean allowing it, thats one thing, and despite whatever I may feel in opposition to it, I think thats an element of freedom I have to respect. As to encouraging it, thats another thing and I agree with you there.

Re: "We are then faced with the choice of accepting or rejecting this type of worldview, particularly as our taxes are being used to prop up and sustain these social maneuverings."

I agree. It is offensive to me that my tax dollars would be used to prop up this type of behavior and to sustain the social engineering experiments we're all subject to to some extent. But to allow it, without any monetary support from the Government, is another thing.

Re: Your "As to the reference regarding worship of God, this reflects the current mindset that all paths to God are acceptable and equal."

I won't get into that except to say in a "free" country its necessary to accept that others may believe differently and to allow them the right to be wrong, if thats the way you see it. Re: "Those who believe that Jesus is the only way, are considered hatefilled, narrowminded, know-it-alls, and are NOT to be tolerated."

Unfortunately a few do behave that way but in general I think that depiction is a little extreme. I hope I haven't portrayed myself in that way. Again, in a free country, anyone can worship as they choose, providing they're not force fed religion of any sort. As far as the NOT tolerated part goes, it may surprise you to learn that in some ways I agree---I think fundamentalist Christians are discriminated against. For example, I personally don't have a problem with the ten commandments being posted in public places nor am I opposed to school prayer. I am opposed to either being jammed down someones throat or non participants being discriminated against.

This brings to mind a perfect example of the divisiveness I've mentioned here on this thread. There's been an ongoing battle in a city not far from where I live. There is a statue of the Virgin Mary on what used to be public property. Some of the anti religionists got together and demanded the city remove it. (leftist extremists as far as I'm concerned) The city balked, having a strong Catholic constituency. The antis took them to court and prevailed. After all it is unconstitutional according to a hyper-literal interpretation. The city sold the postage stamp of land the statue sits on to a group who agreed to maintain the statue. The antis didn't like that either and took the city back to court and are now demanding a fence be put around the statue, delineating public land from private. What a bunch of bullshit! Meanspirited, petty squabling over a harmless thing which might actually uplift and give comfort to some.

Curious---I suspect you're a protestant of some sort. How would you feel about that?

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), July 19, 2000.

Craig and several others, you have said it very eloquently. To me, the way we change our government is to work within it. That is why I am a Federal employee, why I have served on zoning boards and planning boards in towns where I have lived and why every day I live as an example to my co-workers. I don't steal from the supply room. I don't make personal phone calls on the government phone and I give them more than eight hours of work for eight hours of pay. My boss knows that I will absolutely not compromise my integrity and if they want me to bend the rules a little bit, it ain't going to happen on my watch.

As a result of having that reputation, I have a lot of people that trust me and confide in me about events that occur. Having that information I am able to stop abuses and ensure that disciplinary action is taken against those who are abusing their power.

Granted, I am not in an agency like Justice but I do my part in my own world. That is all I can do and I feel it is what we all must do. I speak up about injustice and my words make change happen. But this can be the same for everyone if they will only do it in their own little sphere of influence.

Sitting back and waiting for a major event or taking up arms and trying to fight is not going to change our Government. Honest people willing to take a stand and vote their conscience and get involved is what will make a difference. I have seen many times in my life when my voice was heard, not because I am any big deal but just because I spoke up for truth and justice. Most people subconsciously support truth and justice, they are just too scared to speak up. If you take the first step, others will fall in behind you. We have to have more faith in our fellow man and more guts to make change happen.

I'm not trying to sound like I am some white knight. I am only trying to say, too many people feel they cannot make a difference so they never try. I am just saying, from my experience one voice can make a difference. You don't win every battle but one by one you do make change. Do it every day of your life whether it is how you treat someone you meet on the street or breaking up a couple of fighting boys, or speaking to someone who just kicked their dog. If we all speak up for truth and justice in our everyday lives, it becomes more accepted by those around us. This then spreads and eventually major change happens. If none of us takes that first small step, none of us will ever take the more difficult and larger steps that are really needed.

To me, words are much more powerful weapons than guns. We all can make a difference but not if we sit back on our couch and b*tch and moan about the system. Change the system. Each one of us can make a difference. What ever your strong points are, use them. Be a fund raiser, run for office, help voter turnout, whatever. Just do it and quit griping. But do it with words, not guns.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), July 19, 2000.

John here are just a few ways I feel the Snowball has emerged from the trees. Try and keep Up. The FBI's Carnivore is on the loose -- and your e-mail could be its next meal

WASHINGTON, DC -- A new FBI cyber-snooping device code-named "Carnivore" -- which can scan millions of e-mails a second and could already be scanning yours -- may be the biggest threat to Americans' digital privacy ever, the Libertarian Party warned today The traitors in Washington have come up with a plan -- to be implemented IMMEDIATELY -- to deny and confiscate ALL privately owned firearms from All American VETS. The VA has instructed ALL its hospitals to hand over, to FBI & BATF, ALL medical files on ALL U.S. Veterans that indicate ANY kind of psychological problem: Depression, Anxiety, P.T.S.D from WW2 - Korea - Vietnam - The Gulf War.

They will extend this order to cover anyone that cares for a handicapped person in his/her home.

Psychologists for the FBI & BATF will review the files and profile them. Then, based on this "review", they will inform the VETS that their Constitutional Rights to private firearms ownership is being revoked. Any VETS receiving checks, who are "deemed to be incompetent", as evidenced by medication prescriptions for ANY psychological problem, will be deemed unable to Own, Possess or Buy ANY firearms. What this means is that they don't have to worry about the "Brady Check". THE CLINTON/GORE ADMINISTRATION HAS MADE IT CLEAR HOW THEY FEEL ABOUT OUR RURAL RESOURCE COMMUNITIES. Most recently, disparaging commentary toward the men and women who make their living in natural resource businesses has worked its way into Chapter 3 of the Roadless Area Conservation Draft EIS. This new document states:

Logging and lumber millwork are not an inter-generational way of life for all participants in the wood products industry. In 1991, median tenure of employment in the wood products industry was 5.3 years (Power 1996). Timber communities have been noted for

their instability for over a century, due to the migratory nature of the industry (Kaufman & Kaufman 1990). Timber jobs migrate in response to the expansion and contraction of the industry in local areas, with boom and bust cycles caused in large part by unsustainable harvest levels (Power 1996). Even reasonably prosperous timber-dependent communities are among the least prosperous rural communities, having high seasonal unemployment, high rates of population turnover, high divorce rates, and poor housing, social services, and community infrastructures (Drielsma and others, 1990, Power 1996). While TV anchors, politicians or pundits of questionable credentials tell us the cold war is over, we are safe, we are the only super power left.....

Rep. Traficant (D-OH), again tells it like it is.

From: BOBWORN@aol.com Subject: CHINA SAYS AMERICAN SHIPS ARE "DEAD MEAT"

CHINA SAYS AMERICAN SHIPS ARE DEAD MEAT Rep. Traficant (D-OH), House of Representatives, May 22, 2000 Mr. Speaker, military experts say that China just bought 24 cruise missiles from Russia. They now say American ships are now, quote/unquote, dead meat, dead meat. Think about it. We give Russia foreign aid. Russia builds missiles. Russia sells the missiles to China, built with American cash. China threatens Taiwan and Uncle Sam. Unbelievable. I think it is time for Congress to tell China to keep their Communist hands off of Taiwan. In addition, this sweetheart trade deal bothers me. It is very dangerous. If Uncle Sam will turn the other cheek on Taiwan, China will laugh all the way to the bank on this trade deal. Beam me up. We have gone from better dead than red to dead meat. I yield back America's Naval fleet being called dead meat by Naval experts.

Published in the May. 29, 2000 issue of The Washington Weekly Copyright 2000 The Washington Weekly. Now Free Access to All Stories at http://www.federal.com An article by Robert W. Lee, "Dangerous Disarmament," in the June 5, 2000, edition of The New American magazine states: "The drive to deprive Americans of privately owned firearms is part of a larger plan to render the U.S. helpless before a Russian-Chinese axis or a nuclear-armed UN." Clintons push for gun registration (which will make confiscation easy) and his announced plan to reduce our intercontinental ballistic, nuclear warhead missiles by one-half are simply two sides of the same coin, and this week he has been traveling about Europe (heading for Russia) proclaiming that he plans to share our missile defense plans and technology with .... just about everyone. These are all portions of e-mails I recieve everyday regarding the depletion of freedom in this country. Much of this was, although hidden 8 years ago, exacerbated by the election of a completely immoral man to the office of president. here is a list of his greatest hits. 1) the bringing of illegal legislation in the form of EO's to a virtual art form. 2) the betrayal of the trust he has been given with regard to upholding the Constitution by his continual attacks upon all portions of it. This includes, the first Amendment in the form of proposed legislation to prevent Christians sharing their faith. The second amendment in the suggestion of national registration, and licensing. The fourth amendment in the ordering of the greates assault on privacy through surveillance in history. Please read "The Rise of the Surveillance state in last month American spectator to find out more. They have a web site. Also the above FBI program violates this Amendment. The fifth Amendment, Ask any California Gun owner if this amendment has been violated. or how about amendment 10? Clinton himself has assited in the violation of this amendment by pushing for more unconstitutional legislation against guns and in many other ways. Do you think the Carnivore program discribes "particularly" the place to be searched? Trust me if you folks read what I read from all the sources I read it from, this would not even be a question. there are so many things going on in this country with regard to the distruction of freedom that it surprises me more people aren't struggling against it. Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), July 19, 2000.

This is to the above post.......Do any of you remember several years ago when King Bill announced that he wanted to see computers in all homes and all of America traveling on the World Wide Web? Interesting.

Doesn't the existence of programs like "carnivore" and Echelon just fly in the face of the 4th ammendment? Or is it just me?

-- Doreen (livinginskin@yahoo.com), July 19, 2000.

Little Bit: I'm a little slow----had to struggle to keep up, but if your information is accurate, I can see what you mean about the acceleration in the last 8 yrs. Scary indeed!

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), July 19, 2000.

John, I am sorry. I really wasn't trying to be insulting. I have a hard time keeping up with this myself. I apologise. I realize now how that must have sounded.

little bit farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), July 19, 2000.

Little Bit: Apology accepted.

I've got a question I ask in all sincerity and without intending to stir up controversy as I've been accused of before. OK, if the info you've provided is accurate, what do we do about it? The obvious answer first answer is don't vote for Gore, but does that also mean vote for Bush? Tweedle dee or tweedle dum? The republicans are long on good sounding rhetoric but when the rubber hits the road they don't seem to be that much different than the Dems. Case in point--- Rep congressman from Fla, Bill McCullum introduced HR666 for consideration several years ago. It got thru republican controlled committee and onto the floor for debate. It basically allowed the cops to search any one, any house or bldg, anytime, without a warrent, merely because the cop had a hunch or suspicion. I don't know if it was made law or not cause I didn't have time to watch the vote but the debate was heated. One of the Dem congressman tried to introduce the wording from the fourth amendment into the bill which would have gutted it but of course it was voted down.

Seriously, how do we combat this and actually wrest control from the congress and return it to the people? Personally I think a strong third and/or fourth party challenge is essential.

And I agree with the others. When life is comfortable for the masses they say cool! and don't bother getting involved.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), July 20, 2000.

Hi John, see we do agree on some things! he-he! As to your question of protestant, I must confess my ignorance. I had to go to my dictionary to make sure our definitions will be the same (kind of like-it depends on what is, is.) Anyway, it states "A member of a part of the Christian church that seperated from the Roman Catholic Church in the 16th century". So, in that sense yes. I am really somewhat ignorant in regards to "religion" per se, or "church". I am a born again believer and as such a follower of Christ, and a student of His Word. We attend a baptist church, as they seem to line up with the word of God in their teachings. I do not consider myself a baptist, but a christian who attends this church, does that make sense? I am not trying to be obtuse, but am hoping this is somewhat clear. Not every baptist church or any other church for that matter is faithful to preach the Word, so I hesitate to align myself with any other than Christ and His Word. Although I am thrilled to be a part of the body of believers known as the Church. Christ's Church, not made of man's hands. I hope I have not given you more than you wanted to know, such a simple question and such a convoluted answer!! Thanks! Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), July 20, 2000.

Hi LBF...(sigh)

You appear to be suffering from information overload. A very wise minister at my church took me aside one day in my youth and said

"Craig, if you were riding in a car down the road and there was a dead cat on one side of the road, and a field of flowers on the other side, you'd stare at the cat and miss the flowers."

He taught me to be AWARE of the cat, but concentrate on the flowers. So, let me clue you in on some of the dead cats you mentioned.

CHINA & DEAD MEAT - Guess what? I'm in Traficant's congressional district in Ohio. The biggest blowhard and slipperyist seal when it comes to accountability of public funds I've ever had the misfortune to run across. But regarding his Navy comments.... 24 cruise missles? That's IT? HAH! There are readers on this forum that can pick off a cruise missle with the worst shotgun in their rack. Heck, they only fly at about 500 mph. About the speed of a mallard duck :) Being a Navy vet with a specialty in electronic warfare, it would be an interesting fight. Rep. Traficant does dis-service to the Navy by implying that they can't defend themselves. Oh, indeed they can! Besides, it comes under the heading "saber rattling". The Chinese learned it from the Russians. Give them credit. They're flexing their muscles on the global stage. It's to be expected.

VETS AND GUNS - If this a public Congressional or Executive order than there are public documents. Where are they? I don't respond well to rumors and innuendo.

NUCLEAR DISARMAMENT - You Betcha! from 40,000 warheads down to 15,000 or 20,000. Just how many warheads do you need to make a nuclear winter? That's about one warhead for every McDonald's, KFC and Pizza Hut in China. Would you like fries with that? American capitalism strikes again!

EROSION OF FREEDOMS - Yes there are abuses. But I'm not going to get ulcers over it. This is one of those dead cats with a particular smell. So you deal with it. In the press, in court, in Congress, in the voting booth. Just don't miss the flowers, LBF. If you concentrate TOO much on the road kill, you'll wind up driving into the ditch.

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox (made in China), now.

(;raig

-- Craig Miller (CMiller@ssd.com), July 20, 2000.

All I have to do to see the flowers is walk out my door into my beautiful valley. I understand what you are saying about perspective, but there is such a thing as carrying that too far. Ever heard the phrase "rose colored glasses"? I think most Americans are suffering from informational underload. They just don't want to know what is going on, they'd rather look at the flowers, or their stock portfolio as the case may be. Those were clips from e-mails which probably total a couple thousand by now from my political mailing list. I didn't publish the entire e-mails, because it would have taken so much space. To me it is important to learn about these things so that I can do something about it. If we don't know how can we stop this ever increasing slide down the greasy hill toward tyranny. It is true perhaps that I can do nothing, but I couldn't live with myself if I left my children the kind of country we are heading for. I certainly couldn't live with myself if I ignored it all to look at the flowers.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), July 20, 2000.

Oh dear. It's Y2K all over again in the guise of "Carnivore" et. al. I swear if it's not one thing it's another. Some folks just can't seem to live their lives without fear of one so called "conspiracy" or another.

Since Craig has refuted point-by-point, quite well I might add, the latest post of conspiracy rhetoric, I will not. Except to point out that the Chinese really don't need a WHOPPING 24 "cruise missiles" from the Russian Republic to be a threat to commercial or military shipping in the Strait of Taiwan. Ever hear of a little ole weapon system called the Silkworm? Nasty bugger that's been deployed by the Chinese and rogue and semi-rogue nations for over a decade. Doesn't have the range of similar Russian or US hardware, but still quite lethal.

It all boils down to...Don't believe EVERYTHING you read on the internet or receive via e-mail. Think about it. Does it make sense? Ask for PROOF. Confirm it through other, independent sources. And above all, in the immortal words of my maternal Grandfather "Use your heads for something besides a hat rack!"

I've probably said too much and don't really mean to be insulting, but this stuff is getting very, very old. So to keep my own blood pressure under control, I think I'll limit myself to the informational posts on this forum. They are exceptionally good.

One parting aggravation. Joel, with your broad, hateful, unqualified, outlandish, irresponsible statements above about the conduct of military personnel, of which I am a former member, you have done yourself, current and former military personnel a great disservice. Sure there are some bad apples in uniform, but not nearly as many % wise as in civilian society, of which the military is only a cross section. As punishment you should be sent to live in a Chinese sweatshop for a period not less then 5 years, so that you can finally realize what REAL oppression really is. I'm sorry you wont be allowed to whine and complain on the internet about your treatment there. They just don't allow such over there like we do here in the UNITED STATES of AMERICA.

-- Steve in TN (Lynswim@mindspring.com), July 20, 2000.

Steve, I don't see where Joel has been hateful. Broad at times but that is because there is SOOOO much out there that flies in the face of what is right that it takes a heck of a lot of time to delineate each thing. As ex -military, do you agree with the anthrax shot court martials? Do you feel that when you were in the military that you should take orders from non-American officers? Are you property when in the service or do you retain personhood?

You are right that for as much information that is true there is as much that is simply made up. I always try to verify super strange things from 3 sources, before I get up in arms about it. But when I hear a "government official" say something unbelievable, I believe my own ears. Just with Mr. Bill there is plenty of that.

John, I hope for a strong third party, but I would be much happier if we could just can all of the "republicrats" and start over from square one. The whole 2 party system is just a means to get us to infight over trivialities. I won't ever vote along party lines for anything. It has to be for the candidate.

It just bothers me personally that we have this mentality that we must group people into parties thereby giving the parties the ability to make the issues. Somehow it cries back to the gang philosophy. I mostly ascribe to the Libertarian party lines, but see a big danger in the same power corrupting them. I guess I am not much of a joiner. But is there another way? Can it be on a persons character or is that too difficult to determine for us with all this technology at our disposal?

We could do live questions from the people to anyone that desired to be in an elected position. We could do alot, huh?

-- Doreen (livinginskin@yahoo.com), July 20, 2000.

Colleen: Thanks for your response. That did answer my question and I understand what you're saying. I asked at the end of my post, as a protestant, how would you feel about the statue of the virgin Mary on public property. Would that be offensive to you? Would you demand equal time for a statue of Christ? If so how would you feel about a statue of Buddha or Krishna? That question is still open.

Little Bit and others: I really don't keep up with these things and confess to having the same leanings as Craig and Steve in general, but thats not to say I'm so naive as to believe there's no fire where there's smoke either.

I've said before I think the system is broken. I continue to believe one important "fix" and to get things back into proper balance/perspective is to take the big money out of the election process. I think thats critical because the peoples voice will more likely be heard if campaign funds are coming from ordinary citizens.

I don't know alot about this but I've heard of a democratic system called proportional representation. As I understand it and I freely acknowledge my own superficial knowledge of this, it works something like this. For example, if there are we'll say 6 viable parties in the US. In national elections say each party ran a candidate. Party one got 15%, Party 2 got 15%, party 3 got 15%, party 4 got 15%, party 5 20%, and party 6, 20%. The congress would then be composed of that proportion of reps. I kinda like that because such a congress would be less corruptible because the power on one party would be more diffuse. Maybe someone else can fill us in more accurately on Proportional Representation.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), July 20, 2000.

Oooops. Sorry about that. I meant Wendy!

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), July 21, 2000.

John, sorry about that, I thought you were asking me about being a "protestant"!! All that and I did not even answer your question!! Oh well, here goes an attempt to answer the actual question posed. No, I would not be offended by a statue of the Virgin Mary, and I would not demand equal time for Christ, (He does not need it). I understand you to say the statue had been there a long time, which does not suprise me. 1) - It is part of the history of that community 2) Catholiscism has always been a strong force in this country - it is under the umbrella of the Judeo-Christian foundation of this country. 3) The "government" did not recently erect the statue on public property using taxpayers money. It would not happen in the times we now live. As to having a statue of Buddha or Krishna on public property in this country, I do not believe we could find one instance of a local community having placed Buddha or Krishna anywhere on government owned land....it is NOT a part of our history. Since we are talking, in these type of instances, of individual community preferences or leanings in times past, you would have to conclude only "statues", references to Christ, the bible, etc... would be targeted for removal. Believe me, if we had an abundance of Buddha or Krishna statues all over this country on public property, these types of suits would not be happening!! That is not to say if the government NOW began placing them up, there would not be lawsuits- -there definately would be..NOW. Try as people might, we can not erase our Judeo/Christian foundation.....the principles found therein are what propelled the United States to greatness! To say otherwise is mere fancy. Again, this goes back to what our government "upholds".... it once upheld these principles. What and who the citizens of this country "worship" is a personal matter, and that is as it should be. Our past points to the fact that this country has been a nation of believers, and for it to continue to be so is the business of the Church (body of believers), not the government. We live in a time of such chaos and confusion, it would not be possible to be of one mind, concerning the things of God. So, there you have it. Leave alone the things that are currently in place (put there by those before us-even it that includes Buddha, etc..)and agree we will not "put" anything in place on any government property currently. Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), July 21, 2000.

Joel, how about a wind up? You been swayed either way? We going to see you on the T.V., and point to our kids and say "I could have told you that this was going to happen?" Your children are going to live on the wellfare checks, written by the government you hate so much? Without your strong influence your boys will marry liberal, strong, opinionated women like me? :) Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), July 21, 2000.

It is true, that everything you read in e-mail isn't true, but some of it is...Well since obviously I am going to have to prove that these things exist, You can find articles regarding Carnivore at: The Libertarian Party http://www.lp.org/ Just scroll down toward the bottom of the screen and click the link. Just so you have more than one source you can also find articles regarding this at http://www.washingtonpost.com Scroll down to their search bar on the bottom right side of the page and enter FBI Carnivore. There you will find not one but four article. I didn't do it but you could also head over too the AP for their listings. Here is a quote from China threatening the United States from the Washington Weekly. In my own newspaper The Tribune from San Luis Obispo California there was an article day before yesterday about a russian/china alliance. "I said you'll get a military reaction from the United States" if China attacks Taiwan, Freeman recalled," and they said, 'No, you won't. We've watched you in Somalia, Haiti and Bosnia, and you don't have the will.'" Then, according to Freeman, a senior officer added: "In the 1950s, you three times threatened nuclear strikes on China, and you could do that because we couldn't hit back. Now we can. So you are not going to threaten us again because, in the end, you care a lot more about Los Angeles than Taipei." [Washington Post Sunday, June 21, 1998, recounting an incident from 1996]

You can read The Rise of the Surveillance State at: http://www.spectator.org/archives/0005TAS/bovard0005.htm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), July 21, 2000.

I ended up here completely by accident and now I think I'm going to be sick. Now I know where Tim Mcveigh would come to post if he were allowed computer access. You people need to come out of your shelters on occasion and stop putting gospel faith in militia-kook, paranoia periodicals like New American and Washington Weekly. I own guns, they're registered, and nobody is going to take them if they're not used in a crime. (If they are, they should take them and the criminal away). So many of you are so fond of stating your militia rights under the Constitution. Well if you bother to read the rest of it (not just the part that serves your purpose) you will notice several things regarding Militias: The Second Amendment: (your favorite) allows for a WELL REGULATED militia...........ahh, but regulated by whom? The answer to that lies in Article I, section 8: CONGRESS is provided with the calling forth of, organizing, arming, and DISCIPLINING a militia. But wait! There's more! Article II, section 2 the PRESIDENT shall be the COMMANDER AND CHIEF of the army, navy, and MILITIAs of the various states. So you see, the Constitution you and I so dearly love states quite plainly that you exist at the pleasure of Congress and the President and if either of them ordered you to disband, you would have to comply. Something tells me you've all talked yourselves into some twisted logic that allows you to interpret the constitution not as it is CLEARLY WRITTEN, but rather in a way that allows you to cling to it like the word of God when it fortifies your paranoid delusions and wipe your ass with the rest. Well, guess what folks, it just doesn't work that. It also clearly provides provisions for some of your other enemies till the death. Check out the sixteenth amendment sometime, it is quite unambiguous in stating that Congress has the power to collect income tax without regard to census or enumeration. Imagine that! the IRS is actually legal. And for all you freeloaders who actually use the post office, call 911, want to get Osama, drive on the highway, get relief when a tornado blows your trailer away, want criminals in prison,and countless other services, pay your share and or move to Somolia and see how great tax-free life is. And finally, for those who are invoking religion into such matters; if you HONESTLY BELIEVE in your God and that He/She is all powerful, omnicient, and always right; why not let Him/Her take care of the world in His/Her way? Don't you think it's a bit arrogant to presume that you act on behalf of GOD? (such people are called Zealots, you know, like the Taliban) I assure you an all-powerful diety that created the entire universe DOESN'T NEED YOUR HELP WITH ANYTHING! If you don't like Bill Clinton, Guess what! Bill being president is all part of GODs plan. To deny this is to admit that the DEMOCRATS ARE MORE POWERFUL THAN GOD. I would love to hear some of you tell me that's the case. You folks need to relax, worry about the happiness of your children and your families and yourselves. I promise you don't need to worry about Belgian Commandos, the UN stormtroopers, or Janet Reno coming to get them. (That is of course, unless they've holed themselves up in some kook compound and have shot policemen. In which case, you have to blame the parents for raising a criminal)

-- Anthony (xxANTxx@excite.com), January 12, 2002.