Quotably Quoted #54greenspun.com : LUSENET : TB2K spinoff uncensored : One Thread |
After much agonizing over alternatives, we have decided to move the TimeBombY2000 forum from the Greenspun site at MIT to this new home on the ezBoard site. Professor Greenspun's technology was absolutely the best-in-class when we began in late 1997, and it still has some features that are unmatched elsewhere -- but it also had a limited ability to block the trolls and spammers who occasionally disrupted the forum.
Cheers,
Ed
-- Ed Yourdon (ed@yourdon.com), March 02, 2000HEd Yourdom has always been, is, and will forever remain a pathetic memetic doomer, and a hopeless liar. He is a disgrace to the programming profession, MIT, and any and all who have, continue to, or will associate themselves with him.
Vindicated Regards,
Andy Ray
-- Andy Ray (andyman633@hotmail.com), July 14, 2000
For many people, the original "focus" of Y2K discussions has changed; some are interested in tracking and documenting post-Y2K glitches (e.g., the various problems that may or may not occur on Feb 29), while others have shifted to a broader look at the impact of technology (and technological glitches) on society. Still others are discussing political subjects, or whatever else interests them.
The new forum is set up so that anyone can lurk without registering or revealing their identity. But to post a message, you must register with the ezBoard system. There is no "approval" required, but you must supply a user-name and email address; thus, it's reasonably "open", but does not cater to completely anonymous postings of messages.
I'm expecting everyone to remain reasonably civil and well-behaved, but I'm also willing to tolerate heated, raucous debates. I'll delete messages that contain pornography, excessive obscenity, or racist or slanderous/libelous attacks -- as well as sales pitches, advertisements, etc. We'll warn offenders to stop making such posts, and then take advantage of ezBoard's features to block repeated offenders. A handful of trolls and spammers who have made persistent, aggressive efforts to disrupt this forum will be blocked, to whatever extent we're capable of doing so, from making any postings of any kind on the new forum.
We intend to leave the current Greenspun forum intact, but will "freeze" it to prevent new threads from being posted. The existing collection of some 360,000 messages that have accumulated over the past 26+ months is a valuable archive for researchers and others.
I'd like to add my own personal thanks to all of the sysops and forum moderators who have worked so hard for the past two years to keep things reasonably civil and orderly -- with nothing more than an occasional "thanks" as compensation. Diane Squire took much of the heat through her visibility; had I known that I was going to be subjecting her to so much public abuse back in May 1999, I doubt that I would have had the heart to ask her to take over for me. But in addition, another half-dozen sysops have worked just as hard during this period -- often to the detriment of their family life, their sleep, and their jobs. I don't think that any of us expected Y2K to be such an emotionally polarizing event, and all of these folks have made an enormous effort to keep it from being any worse than it was.
In any case ... life goes on. We managed to get through the Feb 29/Mar 1 leap-year rollover without very many significant problems -- and for several of the sysops, and a lot of forum lurkers, it's time to get back to their "regular" lives. But for everyone who still wants to keep watch on Y2K events, and to discuss various aspects of it, the new forum awaits you.
Cheers,
Ed
-- Ed Yourdon (ed@yourdon.com), March 02, 2000HEd Yourdom has always been, is, and will forever remain a pathetic memetic doomer, and a hopeless liar. He is a disgrace to the programming profession, MIT, and any and all who have, continue to, or will associate themselves with him.
Vindicated Regards,
Andy Ray
-- Andy Ray (andyman633@hotmail.com), July 14, 2000.
Rather than making the Greenspun forum password-protected, we decided to move to a new ezBoard TimeBomb 2000 forum. It's one of several discussion forums that are attached to my web site.
-- Andy Ray (andyman633@hotmail.com), July 14, 2000.
"...pathetic memetic doomer..." "...pathetic memetic doomer..." "...pathetic memetic doomer..." "...pathetic memetic doomer..."Is it just me, or does it seem like Andy Fey needs a new writer?
-- (Writers.Guild@of.America), July 14, 2000.
EXCUUUUSE ME, BUT I BEG TO DIFFER THERE ANDY GAY. IT IS YOU WHO ARE PATHETIC, AND YOU WHO ARE A LIAR. YOU ARE ALSO VERY MENTALLY ILL, SINCE YOU ARE UNABLE TO GET OVER YOUR OBSESSION WITH THIS IDEA THAT YOU CAN ALTER EVENTS WHICH HAVE ALREADY OCCURRED. IF ANYONE IS A MEMETIC ASSWIPE, IT IS MOST DEFINITELY YOU! BRAIN TRANSPLANTS ARE EXPENSIVE, BUT I WOULD SUGGEST THAT IF YOU PUT AS MUCH TIME AS YOU SPEND ON THESE POSTS TOWARD CONSTRUCTIVE LABOR, YOU MAY SOMEDAY BE ABLE TO GET ONE. A HEALTHIER BRAIN WOULD ALLOW YOU TO MOVE OUT OF YOUR RUT IN HISTORY AND BEGIN LIVING FOR TODAY. TRY IT, YOU'LL LIKE IT!
-- (BIG@TEXT.MAN), July 14, 2000.
I'm here, I'm there = Big Text Man
-- I (know@who.it.is), July 14, 2000.
Big Text Man,
Those who forget the past (especially their past mistakes - especially one as large and idiotic as predicting a catstrophic Y2k whicj needed to be prepared for...) are "doomed" to repeat them. Are you still a doomer? Cheer up, something bad will happen soon enough...
Vindicated Regards,
Andy Ray
-- Andy Ray (andyman633@hotmail.com), July 14, 2000.
OH I SEE, AND I SUPPOSE ANDY GAY HAS NEVER MADE A MISTAKE IN HIS LIFE, SO HE DOESN'T NEED SOMEONE IN HIS FACE EVERY DAY ALL DAY LONG REMINDING HIM OF HOW HE FUCKED UP? THAT'S PREETY CLEVER HOW YOU FIGURED THAT OUT, TOO BAD IT IS WRONG, DIPSHIT LOSER.
-- (BIG@TEXT.MAN), July 14, 2000.
Andy: If you want to continue to "air" superiority, you really need to check your typing/spelling.
-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), July 14, 2000.
Anita,
For a bunch of doomers? I thinj not.
Vindicated Regards,
Andy Ray
-- Andy Ray (andyman633@hotmail.com), July 14, 2000.
Will the real Andy Ray please stand up?TOILET BOWL CLEANER GUY Mediocr e artist guy
a href="http://www.derwentside.org.uk/community/demi/andyray.htm"It takes leather balls to play rugby, especially if you're a hookerguy
On second thought, will the real Andy Ray take a flying f**k at a rolling donut?
-- (nemesis@awol.com), July 14, 2000.
Two guys wouldn't cooperatemediocr e artist guy
-- (nemesis@awol.com), July 14, 2000.
ROTFL!!GOT TO BE THE TOILET CLEANER GUY!
I THINK THE RUGBY GUY IS CREEPER, LOOKS LIKE A REAL DIMWIT.
LOL, GOOD ONE NEMESIS!
-- (BIG@TEXT.MAN), July 14, 2000.
Ed Yourdon - Y2K: Are You Prepared?
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/tech/DailyNews/chat_990212yourdon.html
http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002mDC
-- (More@on.Yourdon), July 15, 2000.
Ed Yourdon Y2K: Are You Prepared?
Feb. 12 What will happen on Jan. 1, 2000? Will the computer glitch known as the millennium bug cause life- support systems to fail and planes to fall out of the sky? We talked to Ed Yourdon, one of the world's leading authorities on software development and author of The New York Times best-seller Time Bomb 2000.Moderator at 1:01pm ET Ed Yourdon now joins us. Welcome.
Sterling Hill from dialup.mindspring.com at 1:04pm ET Please explain the difference between Y2K ready and Y2K Compliant.
Ed Yourdon at 1:04pm ET Everyone is inventing their own definitions for Y2K ready and Y2K compliant. It's important to ask the companies what they mean by these terms since there is no universally accepted definition.
Brent Larson from mnext.umn.edu at 1:05pm ET With all the computer technology available, why can't these situations be simulated in the critical environments we hear so much about so we know what is going to happen?
Ed Yourdon at 1:06pm ET The difficulty with simulation is that there are so many interconnections between components of any system. So it's impossible, for example, to simulate the behavior of the entire international telecommunications system or the behavior of the entire national power grid.
nglover from [38.29.63.42], at 1:07pm ET Don't you think the Y2K problem is really overblown and meant to be a money pit for ignorant people who just don't understand the problem completely?
Ed Yourdon at 1:07pm ET No, I don't think it's overblown. There are some areas that have been exaggerated but, in general, it's a potentially very serious problem that has been underappreciated by most people.
-- Quotably (quotED@abc.abc), July 15, 2000.
Al Conger from [206.242.150.66], at 1:08pm ET Does the average person need to make special preparations for Y2K? If so, what?
Ed Yourdon at 1:10pm ET The average person needs to assess where he might be vulnerable to Y2K problems and then needs to decide whether to prepare for a disruption of a few days, a few weeks, or a few months. For most people, this would usually involve a modest amount of stockpiling for basic supplies. For example, the Red Cross recommends stockpiling a weeks' worth of food.
Shedel from [207.4.188.144], at 1:11pm ET Mr. Yourdon, My big question is this: What do you really think the odds are that the power grid could go down for a significant period of time? In my opinion, this is the one big factor that could lead to a doomsday scenario. Everything else, we'll recover from... eventually.
Ed Yourdon at 1:11pm ET Most experts now believe that we will not suffer a nationwide power failure. But we may experience localized power disruptions in various cities, perhaps lasting as long as a few days or a week.
Dan Campanelli (dkc114@technol from [131.220.59.85], at 1:12pm ET Mr. Yourdon, Do you believe the fallout from the Y2K situation will be seen before Jan. 1. 2000? I have heard that the markets will take a tumble in the last half of the Year.
Ed Yourdon at 1:14pm ET The Wall Street reaction to Y2K will probably depend upon the outcome of certain Y2K "Trigger Dates." These include April 1st (beginning of 1999-2000 fiscal year for New York State and Canada), and July 1st (beginning of 1999-2000 fiscal year for 46 additional states).
Brett Dalrymple from sugar-land.omnes.net at 1:14pm ET How have your views on the Y2K problem changed since your book on the subject was published?
Ed Yourdon at 1:15pm ET My opinion about Y2K has become more pessimistic since the original publication of my book. The reason is that we have more evidence now that small companies are not preparing for Y2K. Similarly, there is more evidence now that small towns and small countries are not preparing for Y2K.
Mike McKulka from [144.170.168.203], at 1:16pm ET After reading the world bank report about non-industrialized nations, and realizing that 3/4 of them will never come close to being Y2K compliant, what are your thoughts on how this will affect the rest of the world and the global economy. How can we support contingency planning for these masses of humanity?
Ed Yourdon at 1:17pm ET Most recent studies agree that developing nations are far behind schedule with Y2K. This will almost certainly cause a massive disruption in the global economy. The United Nations discussed this problem in a Y2K Summit Conference on Dec. 11, 1998, but there is no obvious solution to the problem.
-- Quotably (quotED@abc.abc), July 15, 2000.
Timothy G. from [146.132.234.8], at 1:18pm ET Mr. Yourdon, With the number of embedded chips in computer systems estimated as high as 70 billion, only a small percentage of some reportedly will be affected by the millennium bug. But this small percentage is still a very big number. How will these rotten eggs spoil the meal?
Ed Yourdon at 1: ET The concern about embedded systems is that they are used to control critical manufacturing processes. It's often difficult to locate and identify the non-compliant embedded systems, and there is often significant delay in obtaining a compliant replacement. Thus, if a problem does occur, it may not be possible to fix it quickly.
Ray from [198.85.45.138], at 1:20pm ET Can we take some "comfort" in the fact that the Gartner Group has stated that only 8% of Y2K related problems will occur at the "witching" hour? The rest of the problems are already starting to happen now and will continue to happen well past the year 2000.
Ed Yourdon at 1:22pm ET There is some comfort from the statement, because we may have an early warning of Y2K problems that would otherwise have been ignored. And it may give us more time to fix the problems rather than being confronted with a need to fix all the problems at one instant in time.
Kelly Moore from [209.75.154.110], at 1:22pm ET What are you planning to do to prepare for Y2K, and what do you suggest families on a strict budget do to prepare?
Ed Yourdon at 1:24pm ET I have moved to New Mexico and have installed a solar panel on my roof to generate electricity as well as making many other plans. For families on a tight budget, you need to begin making modest preparations as soon as possible, a little at a time. Buy a little bit of extra food each week and set aside a little bit of extra cash each week.
Emily Turrettini from zurich.ch.pub-ip.eu.psi.net at 1:26pm ET Dear Mr. Yourden: I Follow Y2K news daily and I have never come across an article with regard to the automobile industry. I know cars have many embedded chips but not if they have dates in them. Will we be able to open our car doors, use our breaks?
Ed Yourdon at 1:26pm ET The vast majority of consumer automobiles should be safe. A few models of high-end sophisticated automobiles may have problems with GPS Navigation Systems and other embedded chips. But most of the problems will occur in industrial vehicles such as buses, fire engines, and heavy duty trucks.
Amy from atlanta-05-10rs.ga.dial-access.att.net at 1:27pm ET How likely are we to experience a disruption in the supply of food and gasoline, and to what extent?
Ed Yourdon at 1:29pm ET Food disruptions could occur in many different areas. For example, most grocery stores are re-stocked every 72 hours. So if there is a disruption in transportation, that could cause a disruption in availability of groceries. And if there is a disruption in shipping, it could cause a disruption in imported foods. For example, 60% of the fish consumed in this country is imported. Regarding gasoline, there may be disruptions in oil wells, the oil tankers, refineries, and the distribution of refined gasoline to the gasoline stations.
-- Quotably (QuotED@abc.abc), July 15, 2000.
Inman (thinman@digisys.net) from [205.138.110.159], at 1:30pm ET Mr. Yourdon: Are the large cities more vulnerable to extended power and other utility problems than the rural areas? If so, how are the police and other agencies gearing up ahead of time to prevent widespread looting? In my opinion, this will be catalyst for the breakdown of society.
Ed Yourdon at 1:34pm ET Large cities and rural communities are both vulnerable to power disruptions. However, residents of the suburban or the rural community usually have the option of buying their own generator or providing some form of alternative energy (such as solar panels). Residents of an urban city usually have no control over their basic utilities. A long term disruption in power or water or other basic utilities certainly could lead to civil unrest. There are rumors of plans being made by the National Guard and other government agencies to provide emergency services in the event of a Y2K breakdown, but none of this has been confirmed by government authorities.
Gary Hansbrough from mix1.sacramento.cw.net at 1:34pm ET When I talk to computer industry insiders, most of them seem to think Y2K is mostly hype that a lot of people are promoting to make a buck off of. Honestly, how much are you profiting from it and why should I believe this doesn't skew your views on it?
Ed Yourdon at 1:37pm ET I am a making no more of a profit for my Y2K activities than I was in the past with my other computer activities. Regarding the question of hype, you should ask why the IRS is spending $1 billion on Y2K repairs. Why is AT&T spending $500 million on Y2K and why is Citibank spending $650 million on Y2K repairs? If Y2K is so simple, why has the federal government budget for Y2K tripled within the past 18 months.
Arnoldo Rodriguez from [160.94.112.88], at 1:37pm ET Who is responsible for the Y2K bug? Should we press for further action against them?
Ed Yourdon at 1:40pm ET The best history of the Y2K bug was published in an article in the Jan. 1999 of Vanity Fair Magazine. Historically, almost every programmer created Y2K bugs deliberately in the 1960's because we had such limited computer memory available. So the question is not who created the problem, but why we did not start dealing with the problem sooner. The answer is that procrastination is a universal American habit.
Leslie W. Elaine,AR from [150.208.115.118], at 1:41pm ET How and why do you think that there is going to be a global economic depression as a worst case scenario?
Ed Yourdon at 1:43pm ET We are likely to see failures of some international banking systems. We are likely to see bankruptcies of industrial organizations around the world because of Y2K problems. And we are likely to see problems in air transportation and air shipping which will disrupt global trade.
Melissa from [205.188.195.26], at 1:44pm ET Mr. Yourdon, Do you see any real possibility of threat to our national security as a result of Y2K on nuclear tracking devices?
Ed Yourdon at 1:45pm ET There are potential threats caused by terrorists who might try to take advantage of Y2K disruptions. And the military has expressed concern about possible Y2K problems in early warning systems. But they express confidence that nuclear weapons themselves will remain safe.
-- Quotably (QuotED@abc.abc), July 15, 2000.
Karen from [209.240.197.33], at 1:46pm ET In your opinion what, if anything, should the government be doing differently in the way they are handlng the Y2K problem? Especially with regard to what they are telling the public?
Ed Yourdon at 1:48pm ET I believe the government should be much more candid and forthright about potential Y2K problems. And I think the government should be publishing recommended Y2K contingency plans much like the Red Cross has done on their website. Unfortunately, government is likely to be part of the problem rather than part of the solution.
Jason Brittain from [216.15.103.34], at 1:49pm ET Mr. Yourdon: I have read several news stories on the Net about the potential for Y2k nuclear disasters such as nuclear reactor meltdowns and Y2k-triggered nuclear missile launches from around the world. As a software engineer, I see this as a very real possibility, and I worry about it. What (if anything) have you heard about serious government effort to prevent these life-threatening Y2k problems?
Ed Yourdon at 1:50pm ET As you might imagine, most of the information about nuclear weapons is highly classified. So we can only hope that military officials have had the common sense to carefully check potential Y2K problems in nuclear weapons.
Prasad Ram from [4.11.247.69], at 1:51pm ET Would the Y2K bug affect Bio-electronics, like heart monitors and so on? If so, will the liability to correct fall on the manufacturer? Lastly, how will Y2K bug affect such equipment sold to third world countries? Thanks.
Ed Yourdon at 1:53pm ET Most hospitals have discovered that they have hundreds of medical devices that contain embedded systems and each of these must be checked to see whether a Y2K problem might have life-threatening consequences. Pace makers for example, will not stop or explode if they have a Y2K problem, but they might record erroneous information about a patient's heart condition. This could lead to a faulty diagnosis on the part of the doctor.
michael from [206.148.52.140], at 1:53pm ET It seems inevitable that some sectors will try to take advantage of a global crisis. Which businesses or people in power do you see benefiting the most in the Y2K fallout?
Ed Yourdon at 1:55pm ET Some companies may achieve competitive advantage simply because they are Y2K compliant, while their competitors experience Y2K problems. On a global scale, the United States might gain an advantage because we have taken the Y2K problem more seriously than most other countries around the world.
Brent Sundberg from kellogg.com at 1:56pm ET What risk do we have of losing money in the financial institutions at the turn of the century? Are there good alternative havens during that period?
Ed Yourdon at 1:58pm ET Of all the industries working on Y2K, the banking and financial industry has the greatest sense of urgency and has made the most progress in achieving Y2K compliance. But there is no absolute guarantee that every bank will be safe, or that the American banking system will remain unaffected by Y2K problems that might occur in international banks. On the other hand, there may be a greater risk caused by panic and bank runs than the risk of actual Y2K problems.
-- Quotably (QuotED@abc.abc), July 15, 2000.
Dennis Chimelis from [208.225.13.10], at 1:59pm ET Aren't we creating a potentially dangerous atmosphere by overhyping the so-called Y2K bug? Making the public aware is one thing, causing the public to panic with a run at the bank in 12/99 is quite another.
Ed Yourdon at 2:01pm ET There is a fine line between awarenes and panic, and the best way of preventing panic is to provide detailed credible information that can be verified by an independent third party. Unfortunately, none of the banks have provided a detailed description of the state of their Y2K compliance that has been subjected to a third party audit. They are simply asking us to trust their assurances of Y2K progress.
Moderator at 2:07pm ET Any final thoughts, Ed?
Ed Yourdon at 2:08pm ET I'd like to offer my best wishes for whatever Y2K plans you might be making. For more information, feel free to visit my website at www.yourdon.com.
Moderator at 2:11pm ET Thanks for joining us everyone. Sorry we couldn't get to all of your questions ... we had nearly 500 in the queue!
-- Quotably (QuotED@abc.abc), July 15, 2000.