Born Again/From-above

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Since this has nothing to do with I Cor. 16:1-2, I think we really ought to start a new thread for this.

Connie, in the I Cor. 16:1-2 thread, you said the following:

"So the passage IS John 3:3-8. If I remember correctly (and I don't have my copies in front of me, so I could be wrong), both evan and Paul stated that the word 'again' is not in there ~ it is 'born(e) from above'~ as my son said 'fathered from above', or 'fathered out of water and wind'.

"My son really has no axe to grind, so his interpretation would be neutral. He also has all the information about cases and such.

"Presumably, evan's also would be. He gave a word-for-word translation."

I've already answered this (twice, actually) in the "Sinner's Prayer" thread, so I'll copy what I said there over to here. As follows --

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On July 3, I wrote:

On another subject, Connie, you said something awhile back about the Greek word ANOTHEN used in John 3. (I think the other writer you quoted may have transliterated it ANOWTHEN -- the "O" or "OW" takes the place of the Greek Omega, with a long "O" sound, as opposed to the Omicron, also rendered "O", with the short "O" sound.) The Greek word has TWO meanings in English. It can mean EITHER "from above" or "again". Another place where it is used with the "again" meaning is in Gal. 4:9, where it cannot possibly have the "from above" meaning.

Which meaning it has in a particular place can usually be determined from the context. Some clues to the meaning that can be found in the context are, what else is said? and what did the original hearers understand it to mean? Nicodemus plainly understood Jesus to mean it in the sense of "again" or "a second time", and Jesus, rather than contradicting him, went along with that idea, which suggests that this is the meaning Jesus intended in the first place. Since our being "born again" is also "from above", it may be that Jesus intended BOTH meanings. The only problem with that is that Jesus was probably talking to Nicodemus not in Greek but in Aramaic, and I don't know what Aramaic word he would have used, or whether or not it too could have had these same two meanings.

In any case, we are BOTH born "again" and "from above". We have no power to save ourselves or to be "born again" by our own power. But unless you are a strict Calvinist who believes that even faith is given to us by God WITHOUT ANY FREEDOM OF CHOICE on our part, we must all "choose" whether to accept or reject what God offers. Baptism (which I believe -- and ALMOST all translaters and commentators through the centuries have believed -- to be what Jesus meant by being "born of water") is the mechanism by which we affirm and demonstrate that choice. "Born of water" (i.e. baptism) is how we accept what God offers; "born of the Spirit" is what God then accomplishes in us when we do that.

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On July 5, after you had posted the word-by-word translation by your son, I wrote again:

Both your son, Connie, and the other person you quote (Evan?) translate ANOTHEN/ANOWTHEN/anOthen (choose your preferred transliteration -- it's the same Greek word) as "from above" as though that is the ONLY meaning. It is possible that in Attic Greek, which is the variety both your son and Evan are familiar with) it may ONLY have that meaning. But ALL reputable lexicons of Koini Greek include "again" or "anew" as another meaning. Some suggest, as a third meaning, "from the beginning." My guess is that "from above" in a spatial (and perhaps spiritual) sense was the original meaning, which then came to include "from the beginning" (as we might say, "take it from the top", i.e. start over again), from which it was only a very short jump to mean "again" in a more general sense.

In MOST of the Bible verses that use ANOTHEN, the context requires that the meaning be "from above" or "from the top", sometimes in a spatial sense (the curtain of the temple, Matt. 27:51, Mark 15:38) and sometimes in a spiritual sense (every perfect gift is from above, Jas. 1:17). In Luke 1:3, it almost certainly has a temporaral sense -- "from the beginning." In Gal. 4:9 it is hard to see any other possible translation than "again."

In John 3, either "again" or "from above" would fit what Jesus himself says. "From the beginning" would not fit quite so well, although it would reinforce Nicodemus's consternation if that is what HE thought Jesus was saying. What Nicodemus says shows that the original hearer of Jesus' words understood them to mean "again." And Jesus did not contradict this understanding, but seems to have gone along with it.

Many commentators suggest that BOTH meanings may have been intended. It may have been intended (as a kind of "pun") by John when he wrote it down. But would the same "pun" have worked in Aramaic or Hebrew, which is what Jesus and Nicodemus were probably speaking to each other? (It is possible that they spoke a kind of Aramaic with common Greek words thrown in -- like the "Taglish" [Tagalog with English words thrown in] or "Chinglish" [Chinese and English blended together] which I hear all around me here in H.K., but there's no way today of knowing that.)

My own conclusion is that the intended first meaning most likely was "again", though this does not deny or contradict the "from above" aspect, since that is clearly taught throughout Scripture as a whole.

I'm a little confused, Connie. You seem to want to emphasise the "from above" aspect to the exclusion of "again" -- as though you would like to deny that "again" is a possible meaning. Yet you also want to split "born out of water and [the] spirit" into TWO, i.e physical birth and spiritual birth. Most on "my side" would take this expression "out of water and spirit" to be just ONE birth, the second or "from above" birth, with the first birth, the physical one, being taken for granted.

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To reiterate in brief: the word ANOTHEN can, at least *in Koini Greek*, mean *either* "from above" or "again". Either meaning would be true to the facts of what happen when we experience our spiritual (re-)birth. The meaning "again" seems to fit better with Nicodemus's response, which is probably why it has ALWAYS been the preferred choice of translators. Some suggest that John had *both* meanings in mind, which might have been, but may be in conflict with the idea that Jesus was actually speaking Aramaic at the time rather than Greek.

Is it important? Since both meanings would be true to what happens, probably not. Is it even important whether "born of water" refers to baptism or to physical birth? I think it's important, but, as I said earlier (PLEASE do read my recent posting about John 3 in the I Cor. 161-3 thread IN FULL), it isn't absolutely crucial since the link between baptism and salvation and between baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit is *clearly* stated in so many other passages.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 2000

Answers

Benjamin,

I have had to do other things today, so haven't been able to get to this.

Besides that, I'm tired.

I AM bad about referring to other topics from other threads. I treat these threads a conversational, and if someone introduces a slightly different topic, I DO go off in that direction. I'm interested in too many subjects, I guess.

I can't find my NIV-Greek Interlinear, and my son hasn't got time. I've found a site which answers questions such as this (they say), but haven't gotten a response to my questions yet. (I ask too many, probably).

In Him,

-- Anonymous, July 13, 2000


Benjamin,

I am delaying this study for awhile; (the weather has been too beautiful here lately).

My son, Paul, is coming at the end of this month to help celebrate some family birthdays and do some heavy work for us. (He really IS a wonderful son, though not a believer).

I will see if he'll help me with some of these passages. I know I can read the English, and it will be close, but what I get from him is more complete.

And while his main study is Attic Greek, Koine is very easy for him. Koine is based on Attic. He said, though, that the interpretations can be very tricky. I dare say that he may know as much about the language as some of the people working on the committees of various Bible translations possessed.

He, in addition to teaching Greek and Latin, works in his university's Epigraphy department, helping get the antiquities off their original sites (by process of 'rubbings', etc.) and into the computer. When he started doing this, he was the only one able to do it.

He was at The American School for Classical Studies in Athens for a school year (10 months) and that is when we were able to visit in Greece. His university paid for his living expenses and the Athens school paid for his study. (Scholarship).

He has gone on several of these 'fellowship studies', paid for by his university. (If we don't brag about our children, who will?)

He also won some sort of award for a paper he did relative to his subject. So he's no slouch. He won't be quite as dogmatic as WE, who DO have axes to grind, might be. Just kidding! Just kidding!!

Affectionately in Christ,

Connie

-- Anonymous, July 14, 2000


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