Is there anything that should be changed in the standard? : LUSENET : Shih-Tzu Talkshop : One Thread

Take a good look at the Shih-Tzu standard - is there anything that you think should be modified? Size, height etc.(:o)

-- Anonymous, June 27, 2000


I think you are entering a minefield in the U.K. when you mention size and the breed standard in the same breath. It seems today that people are interpreting the wording differently. The Breed standard states height at withers NOT MORE THAN 10.5 inches and ideal weight 10-18lbs. Have I missed something or are tape measures stretching. At Windsor Champ. Show last week there were a lot of dogs far exceeding these measurements. Type and breed characteristics are very important, but surely we should still be trying to breed within our Kennel Club Standard.

-- Anonymous, July 06, 2000

Always thought that question would be provocative! I`m about to cook dinner, but I shall return - to have my four pennyworth! Once we have a few more contibutors, this thread could become quite interesting!(:o)

-- Anonymous, July 06, 2000

I`ve decided, before I make my comments, I shall weigh and measure the dogs I have at home!(;o)

I know for certain I have one dog way over the ten and a half inches - it`s those Greta Garbo legs! Weight wise, I`m guessing my dogs should just about scrape in, but I do have a mixed bunch of sizes, so it will be an interesting exercise!

I promise I will report back honestly! (:o)

-- Anonymous, July 06, 2000

I still haven`t gotten round to measuring and weighing my dogs, but I will definately do so this week.

However, and interesting item appeared in my copy of `Topnot` the publication of the Shih-Tzu Club of South Wales & Western Counties. It is in regard to a proposed change in the Standard, a draft of which has already been sent to the KC. I quote from the Secretary of the club as printed in the publication:

`With the new passport in place and the possible influx of continental exhibitors it was decided by the five Shih Tzu Clubs that the breed standard should be updated to control the over trimming of coat and use of artificial aids in the breeds top knot. A meeting was called to which the Secretaries and Chairman of the various clubs attended, and it was unanimously decided to revise the wording. Draft wording was drawn up and will be forwarded to the Kenel Club full details of this revision is included with this issue.`

The revision is as follows:

from: COAT - Long, dense, not curly, with good undercoat. Slight wave permitted. Strongly recommended that the hair on head tied up.

to: COAT - Long, dense, not curly with good undercoat. Slight wave permitted, Obvious trimming or shaving must be heavily penalised. Strongly recommended that hair on head tied up using elastic bands only. No exaggeration or other artificial aids permitted.

Comments anyone?(:o)

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2000

I`m quite surprised that no-one has come back on this one. Personally, I can think of a few changes to the standard that would be much more important that this one. This particular one just strikes me as a bit of a knee jerk reaction to the possibility of competition from overseas.

Also, I am not altogether convinced that the Chairmen of the various Clubs have the right to declare UDI on changes to the standard. Surely a more general discussion is called for?(:o)

-- Anonymous, July 18, 2000

As far as a general discussion on the considered ammendment to the Kennel Club Standard that you mention - I can only say that it was item 10 on the Shih Tzu Club AGM Agenda - anyone who attended the AGM would have been able to discuss and ask relevant questions regarding the ammendment. Unfortunately, as so often happens, not very many people are interested enough in their Club to attend these meetings.

-- Anonymous, July 20, 2000

Good point Gloria! So far I have never managed to be available for the Shih-Tzu Club AGM - usually business commitments. Was there much discussion on this item then? What was the general thinking behind it? What is meant by artificial aids? What is obvious trimming? I`m not trying to be funny here - I do agree about shaving, but I do also have to trim my dogs (and it`s pretty obvious to me!)

The point I am trying to make I suppose, is that it seemed a bit of a radical move to suddenly put this sort of restriction in the standard regarding presentation. And perhaps, one with which not everyone will agree.(:o)

-- Anonymous, July 20, 2000

I have now received my copy of the Shih-Tzu Journal, containing the minutes of the AGM. Once again the subject of the change to the Breed Standard figures in the proceedings. The implication seems to me to be that the exaggerated top-knots are a ploy to disguise small heads. Far be it from me to disagree - I am quite sure that there are some who would use them to do just that. Also, there are indeed, some small heads appearing in the breed. However, I still remain unconvinced that this particular change to the Breed Standard is the answer. Isn`t it possible to put our heads together and think of a better way?(:o)

-- Anonymous, July 28, 2000

I would think the Seminar that the Shih Tzu Club are holding in November, which will cover Breeding / Whelping etc. might be a good opportunity for asking relevant questions on what to aim for to keep the good attributes of the breed. As far as the "presentation" part, as I said this was discussed fully at the A.G.M. and it was listed in the Agenda that every member should have received prior to the meeting. Any queries or comments regarding this item needed to be put in writing if it was not possible for the member to attend the A.G.M. If anyone feels strongly enough about this, either for or against, I can only suggest that you write a letter with your views to the Committee c/o the secretary. In putting this item up for discussion at the A.G.M. the Committee gave everyone opportunity to ask their questions and air their views, and I have to say, it was left to very few members to do just that.

-- Anonymous, July 28, 2000

You`re quite right Gloria, I completely missed that opportunity to reply! I`m usually pretty good with incoming correspondence etc., and I don`t understand why I didn`t pick up on that agenda. I guess I must have been up to my neck in other things! I still wouldn`t have been able to go, but I would have written in with my views. I guess nothing is written in stone yet, so I will take the time to write to the Shih-Tzu Club - in fact, there are several suggestions/discussion points I would like to raise.

I certainly agree with the principle of trying to keep the correct sized heads - no problems with that at all. I would have a preference for some addition to the Breed Standard under the `Head` heading - something like a `note to judges`. My KC book of Breed Standards seems to have been borrowed and not returned, but looking at the American Breed Standard, they say `Care should be taken to look and examine well beyond the hair to determine if what is seen is the actual head and expression rather than an image created by grooming technique.` Maybe not those exact words, but something along those lines?

Then, in the Coat section, I would have something like, say `Trimming to be kept to a minimum and allowed only to facilitate movement and hygene. Shaving or sculpturing is not permitted.`

At the end of the Breed Standard I would put a note: `The hair on the head to be tied up using elastic or latex bands only, these to be of a colour which blends with the coat.`

On that last point, I have to say, I am not too bothered, but it does seem to be that the majority of people are anti-adornment in the top- knot, so I would be happy to go with the flow so to speak!

I am definately not keen on the idea of `severely penalising` regarding trimming. I feel that sort of qualification should be saved for much more serious faults, rather than coat presentation, which after all, can`t actually alter the underlying structure of the dog.

What do you think?(:o)

-- Anonymous, July 29, 2000

We seem to be carrying on a bit of a two man discussion here Gloria! Oh well, let`s carry on regardless!

I am actually quite warming to the theme of `Notes to Judges`. I am quite certain that all-rounders must have to study the Breed Standard to `refresh` their memories about the requirements of the breed. Perhaps we should look at each section of the Standard and see if there are any other pointers which would be helpful.

Oh, and I would very much enjoy attending the Breeding/Whelping Seminar, I shall be checking my diary this weekend!

By the way, if you know of anyone else who you think could enjoy contributing on here, please try and persuade them to do so. I really think it is a worthwhile venture!(:o)

-- Anonymous, July 29, 2000

The breed standard booklet with pictures/photo's to illustrate various points that the Shih Tzu Club Committee is hoping to produce soon should, hopefully, make the written word come to life and thereby clearer to judges and I would hope that anyone truly interested in the breed and or judging would consider it a necessity. Of course when the breed is judged it is the "interpretation" of the standard that often comes in to question.

-- Anonymous, July 29, 2000

What an excellent idea! I`ve watched the development of several `illustrated guides` and it is fascinating stuff! My very dear friend, Angela Begg, did the illustrations for several Breed Clubs, and for Peggy Grayson`s two books on showing and judging. Sadly no longer with us, Angela had often said how she would have loved to do some Shih-Tzu illustrations. Her only caution to me when I became interested in Shih-Tzu, was to frequently remind me that this is a `hands on` breed, and what you see is not always what you get! How true that is. The ASTC has illustrated the point beautifully in their `Guide to the Shih-Tzu Standard` by showing a dog minus it`s coat, then laying the coat on top - the effect is sometimes quite remarkable!

As the Shih-Tzu Club is in the process of doing a guide, then this definately is the time to be 100% sure that the wording of the Breed Standard is as good as it can be. You certainly wouldn`t want any changes being made after the guide has been produced.

How far has the Club got with this project? Are there any drafts around? I`d love to see them. (:o)

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2000

Does anyone know what is happening about the proposed change in the standard? (:o)

-- Anonymous, October 24, 2000

Has there been another Shih-Tzu Club meeting recently? There was no mention of one in the Shih-Tzu News, and no further mention of the change in breed standard. (:o)

-- Anonymous, December 06, 2000

Just a small comment without mention any names of dogs and owners.I was off to a CACIB Show in Oktober.When we entended we saw alot of entries from south of europe.On each shih tzu they work with battery curlers,hairspray.I watch the scene and finally sit close by the dog that won BOB that day.While sitting and watching the scene i recognisze that my shih tzu have been the only two without a bow and a puff topknot(overstylish).So i decide to use a bow too.Just beside the this i was not able to breath with all this hairspray. Anyway when you mention standard and size.I think the main problem are the judges who do not know how the exact size (if the dog is in well balance):the judge at this show stated my boy with 5,5, kg to massiv and set up a male with 4 kg as the non plus ultra.Another show only a few weeks ago to my surprise,i heard a english judge saying that a shih tzu from full english bloodlines is to big and he has only 6 kg and in size 23 cm.To me it looks like that noone knows,what we want right now.LOL So i think as long we the judge do not know proper how a good sample of the breed is. Hope i disturb with this thoughts.

-- Anonymous, December 07, 2000

Sometimes, Brigitte, I think that judges have a very narrow view. All the points in the standard have to be taken into consideration - size, balance, type, movement etc. I think some judges fixate on one particular point, and seem to judge on that alone. If you have a judge that is hung up on, say, height, and he is presented with a dog of the correct (or desired) height, and a dog which is slightly outside the limit, but well balanced, he may favour the first dog, even if it is too long, doesn`t move as well, etc.

Personally, I think that balance is more important that a rigid adherence to `inches` and `kilos`. But I appreciate that there are many who would argue otherwise. (:o)

-- Anonymous, December 12, 2000

Sorry i am late in response,but i took over the job of the press public officer of our Club (SV OG Hildesheim e.V.) in the german shepherd club and we have to much all the papers and stuff from one to the other home.In between i am doing their homepage and had to organisze their aniversery of 90 years of being of the club. I recognisze alot that many judges have a narrow view.I think showing a dog is like russian roulette.LOL.I think it is a correct to watch for a overall balanced dog at all rather than at Kg etc..But at least where will we end.Is the shih tzu getting bigger than or is he getting smaller.keep in mind that alot of people comming up with miniature shih tzu in many countries. What i really wanted to see again much more is shih tzu like they really are.No overstyle and over makeup.As i see that we try to show with this makeup something,that a "simple" owner could never handle and wonder why. I wish everybody on the board a "Merry Christmas and a happy New Year." See you.!!!!!!

-- Anonymous, December 15, 2000

It seems a long time since anyone took up this thread but I wonder if they have got any further with the new breed standard, Not that i would like to see too many changes. I certainly wouldnt like to see the size of a Shih Tzu increased, although you do see some in the ring that are well up to size I overheard someone at the ringside not so long ago saying that there dog was allmost 20lb wow,a big boy, i think there are some nice dogs that are on the large side and i have also seen some that are really small too, but shouldnt we be aiming somewhere in the middle.

-- Anonymous, September 01, 2001

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