I debated for a while with myself as to whether I should post this but since there seems to be somewhat of a consensus that its ok as long as its appropriately titled here goes.(with moans from the audience)

Little Bit in one of her responses said she believed the Bible literally. Do the rest of you also believe it literally? If so, why? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Little Bit also said . "I believe in Liberty John, so does God. He gave you a choice. I would not have you lockstepping to my tune. I will however give you the chance to make an informed decision."

Am I correct in believing that you see the choice as "believe in me(God) or go to hell."? If so, some choice! You say you would not have me lockstepping to your tune yet to stray from that tune casts me into eternal damnation according to your way of thinking. What am I missing here? Do you little bit think its remotely possible that living in 21st century usa, that a person would not have heard the "good news" at least 50 times a year upon which to make an informed decision? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Little Bit --- you suggested I am defensive. Hmmmm? maybe (just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not chasing me!)

In doing so you dodged the question. In supporting Todd you praised Christians who would stand and "defend" the faith. I challenged the percieved need to "defend" the faith in that I don't recall that it was being attacked? What, in your mind neccessitates a defense? What is an attack? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Whats being challenged by Colleen, sheepish, myself and others is not Christ or even the spiritual value of the bible, even if it was written by men. How can you say with certainty that what you believe the bible means is actually what it means? 2000 christian denominations around the world and YOU'VE got it right! You and every other fundamentalist on the planet who believes a little differently. Don't you think thats kind of arrogant and presumptious? ---------------------------------------------------------------------

I haven't studied the bible alot, but some. I've gotten more out of the bible since I've studied buddhism and hinduism. I believe it gave me a greater depth of understanding, when I got beyond "church" dogma and the hand me down interpretation. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Trying to describe some of these things is like trying to grab a handful of air. The tighter we close our fist around the air the less of it remains within our grasp. An open palm contains more air than a closed fist. Our mind works that way too with truth. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Again, in closing, I have no argument with Christ. I have several with the commonly held meanings of what he said. comments???

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 27, 2000

Answers

The reality of being a believer truly hinges on whether Christ was resurrected. As far as I know, this is the key difference between Christianity and all the other religions. If he proved that he alone has power over death, then he is who He says He is -- the Son of God. Everything else: validation of the Scriptures, "no one comes unto the Father but thru Me", existence of Heaven and Hell, separation from God, spiritual warfare, etc., flows from that -- because he taught about it all. Assuming this context, would you doubt the word of a deity that shows nothing but compassion and caring for humans?

If he doesn't have power over death, then he is no different than any of us, he contradicted himself, and he was a crazy nut. Assuming this context, do we put any credence to the word of a proven lunatic?

So, the resurrection is the key. How do you prove it or disprove it?

-- Mike O (olsonmr@yahoo.com), June 27, 2000.

John, you seem to be venting a bit of frustration here. I am willing to help you understand this in a non-judgemental way to the best of my ability.

First of all Truth is truth. We don't have to like it, but it still does not change the truth. We all need a standard of measure of right and wrong, good and bad. Everything the world has to offer as a standard is relative, there are no absolutes in a secular worldview, it is always changing by popular thought. That is why the world is "going to hell in a handbasket."

For instance, you have a yardstick, I have a thirty-six inch tape measure. Will we argue over what is three feet? No, we have an absolute in measurement. Now we have someone come by who claims these old standards are irrelevent and made up by ignorant old fools long dead. He claims, "Feet and inches do not exist and a yard is as far as you can see." Hmm, can you see some problems brewing if we all embraced this new standard of measure? Chaos and wars, perhaps? This is why some of us adhere to the Bible as our standard of measure of ourselves, each other and the world.

I do not believe the God of the Bible say's "believe in me or go to hell." God's words in the Bible do state that the wages of sin are death and we ALL fall short of the glory of the Lord. If we say we have no sin, we are liars. Jesus says,..."I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death into life." John 5:24. You see, Jesus of the Bible is the ONLY religion that offers everlasting life, the others only offer death. (oops, get a grip, Laura, you're starting to ramble)

Personally, I cannot clain the Bible is the literal word of God. The problem being, which Bible, King James or New Jerusalem? And did God really speak the king's English? I believe the two mentioned translations are two of the most accurate translations from Greek and Hebrew texts. For me, the Bible is the INFALLIBLE word of God, which has never let me down or proved wrong in any circumstance no matter how much I disliked it.

It is kinda like training a young colt. You use love and compassion, firm guidelines, gentle correction. Eventually, the colt submits to your authority and becomes an enjoyable, working member of the family. Or the colt can rebel, face harsher and harsher consequences until he submits to training, or continue to rebel and injures himself or if he refuses to accept training and is "unteachable" ends up dog food. So it is with us, also.

All of us are at different levels of maturity, intellectually and spritually. At different stages of our growth, the Bible opens up to a whole new understanding of the things previously over our head. The goal is to keep learning and growing and assisting others in their walk and helping others find the path to glory. I personally have to make a conscious effort to let people grow, rather than condemn them. As long as they got a grip on salvation, I cannot judge them. I do not believe any of us will have a full grasp of ALL TRUTH until we get to heaven.

John, I do not do religion of churchianity. For me and my family, being a Christian means having Jesus as Lord of my life and my mind, and having the Bible as my standard for truth. And that means accepting that which I do not like or understand.

Jesus states there is only one unforgivable sin and that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, you cannot know the heart of Jesus, without Jesus, you cannot know the Father. Without the Holy Spirit, you cannot understand the Bible. John, if you will do one thing, ask the Holy Spirit to open your eyes and heart to Him and read the books of John in your Bible.

Thank you John, for this invitation to speak my mind!

-- Laura (gsend@hotmail.com), June 27, 2000.

I am always surprised when folks, even Christians, want evidence to prove the scriptures of the Bible to be true. I will boldly predict that the Word of God will never be scientifically proven to be true until the final day when He returns--and even then, there will be those who will not believe. Why can I make such a statement? Because the whole thing is based on faith. And how much faith is needed to believe in a sure thing? There will never be solid scientific proof that Christ rose from the dead; if there were, the whole concept of faith, God's only requirement, would be null and void.

Whether or not you believe isn't my problem. No one needs to prove anything to anybody, it isn't about proof; it is about faith. It is a matter of faith in something that is totally counter to what we see or feel or hear. That is what makes it work. That is why I prefer being called a believer or Christian to being called "religious."

Religion is man's attempt to make believing logical, earthly and understandable...like man, his religions are flawed and counter productive.

Yes, I take the Bible literally. I believe in healing. I believe in answered prayer. I believe everything in it is true. If I didn't, I would be hypocritical and my faith would be compromised. If it weren't true, then God would be a liar and the Bible tells to "let God be true and every man a liar." If you have never felt the warm healing power of God's living Word, then how can you be expected to believe? The catch is you must believe without proof to experience the proof. God proves Himself to me daily, because I believe, not so I will believe.

I did the Hindu, Babba eastern religion gig back when I was a hippie. I can tell you having experienced both belief systems, that God is real, without a doubt in my mind. Buddism and others offer nice little sayings and philosophies to help you deal with life, but Christianity offers power over life and death. All you need to do is sell out to it and believe w/o a doubt.

That is probably why Christians can be so obnoxious in their "selling" of their belief. They just want you to experience what they are...it is done in love and with the license of one scripture that "commissions" believers to spread the Word. They just forget in their enthusiasm that God doesn't need/desire you to be a salesman. He doesn't want to sell you anything. He only wants you to receive what He has already given to you: eternal life and all the benefits He offers for life on this Earth (Psalms 103). He has already given it. You don't have to do anything but accept it and believe without doubt. Nothing more. No catachism, no ritualistic paganisms man has devised to make it more "believable" or "spiritual"....Only believe.

I have a PhD in Chemistry. I have a very scientific, analytical perspective on life in general. But in my mind, I can not deny, nor can I disprove the existance of God. I know, without question, He exists. And my prayer is that all could know His blessings. But that is totally up to you.

Sorry, I really dislike it when Christians "debate" their belief and I seldom, if ever, try to convince anyone that the way I believe is the correct way. I know we are all individuals with the opportunity to have God in us. So, why would we all believe in the same way? It is very much a personal relationship. I understand why folks do this type of thing, but in my mind it really isn't very fruitful and often causes more controversy than converts. :-) Live it.

-- Jim Roberts (jroberts1@cas.org), June 27, 2000.

Thank you both for your thoughtful replies.

Laura, you say something like Jesus of the Bible is the ONLY one that offers everlasting life. Not true. Many of the Hindu and Buddhist sects provide means for attaining immortality.

Jim, I too KNOW without doubt that God exists and is a working presence in my life, yet I've come to that knowledge thru what appears to be a different path. Assuming what you and I say is true regarding that, then being of the analytical persuasion, doesn't it give you pause and cause you to wonder, whats up? This guy, a closet christian, believing differently than I, has God in his life too. How can that be if the Christian vision is so exclusive?

Laura, you commented about my frustration and I won't disagree with you. It stems from the narrowness of the fundamentalist vision, who won't allow for the possiblility that another, who sees things differently than they, might share in the spirit of Christ, which after all, is universal in scope and application. I'd be considerably less frustrated if the "Christian" vision allowed for the possibility that others of different faiths might share some light as well and saw the spirit for what it is----universal.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 27, 2000.

Just a comment on Mike's response -- the resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the best documented historical facts of ancient times. Yes, we rest our faith on that, and without that, the Bible would be meaningless, but if people don't want to believe in God, they won't believe, no matter how good or solid the evidence. Remember, there are still people who believe the earth is flat, in spite of all the evidence otherwise -- they believe that because they want to believe it!! Another comment for John Leake. You seem to believe that God and the Bible are subjective, that we each get to make up our own minds as to whether He is real and the Bible is true. I think you are taking it as a personal attack from us when we tell you that you have a choice to either believe in God or go to hell when you die. Nothing could be further from the truth. God is not subjective. He is real. Is the Queen of England subjective? No. She is a real person -- not quite a good analogy, because she is mostly a figurehead rather than the real source of government in England, but my point is it doesn't matter whether you believe in God -- or the Queen of England -- or not, they are real. God is actually more real than the Queen of England, since He created her, and gave her her position in life. When we testify of Jesus Christ, of God, and of the Word of God, we are not giving our own opinion (subjective truth, which is what you are giving). We are giving objective truth, something that is eternal and does not change. John Leake is here for a few years and then gone (as are we all). God is forever. At some point in our time here on the earth, God comes to each one of us and asks us whether we will choose Him, and eternal life with Him. If we reject Him, then we are eternally separated from Him, and that is death. You may think now that you would prefer that alternative, as you don't seem to have too high an opinion of God, but I think you will regret that decision later. All we can do, in the hopes that you will choose life, is present the Gospel as often as you are willing to hear it. I would like to add that anyone who claims to believe in God needs to be really careful about how they handle the Word of God. If we go changing it to suit ourselves, leaving things out or adding things in, we are in effect saying that we know more than God does, i.e. putting ourselves above God, which makes Him no God at all. This is what got Satan kicked out of heaven, and what got Adam and Eve kicked out of the Garden of Eden -- same sin. That said, what I've had time to read of the other responses seems to be very good.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), June 27, 2000.

Yes, I believe the Bible to be absoulute truth. Do I believe any one "version" is the absolute correct translation though - no. So at times I use several translations (KJV, NAS, NIV) when studying. And when in doubt to the exact meaning, PRAY about it! God's only too happy to respond. As far as the many many denominations - what can I say except that I don't believe any one is absolutely right. Which is why I consider myself non-denominational, and go where the Gospel is preached and hypocracy doesn't run rampent.

I will say that you have to live by faith FIRST, to truly experience God. Without faith, you cannot claim the absolute truths of God. Without God's absolutes, you are left with mankinds relative truths - and they constantly change.

-- Eric in TN (ems@nac.net), June 27, 2000.

Hi John, after reading the other threads on this subject, one thing stuck with me. It seems that most people don't question God, but Jesus. Are they one and the same? I was raised in the Catholic church and we always made the sign of the cross. The Father, Son and the Holy Ghost. Jesus is the Son. Or is he really? Or is it all three make up One? Most fundamentalists believe that the way to heaven is through Jesus Christ, their Lord and Savior, but if Jesus is God, than why isn't believing in God enough? Personally I think Jesus was a part of God here on earth. I don't see a seperate being. To me he is the same God in the Old Testament as well as the New. Now my problem with most organized religions is, the focus primarily on only the New Testament. It's as if nothing happened before. You only here the word Jesus, as far as salvation goes. Then where is God? He's the same. I think people today want to separate them. Jesus as one and God as the other. But then the question arises, where does that leave all the other religions? To tell you the truth I don't know. Is believing in God alone enough? Surely he cares for all His people. When Jesus said that we must believe in him, did he mean him literally or God? I don't think he put himself above God. I have had many questions to God over the years also. If Jesus is God, than who was he praying to in the garden? And, you must go through him to get to the Father. I thought he was God! arrrgh, it gets so confusing. My point is, man has made religion so complicated. I think one of the main reason is the almighty dollar and control. Get more members to this church and we'll tell them what to think. We'll interperate this part of the Bible a little differently, so people will follow us. etc...When in reality we can do it on our own. They are no more closer to God than anyone else. It's really simple. I've had alot of questions through the years, but GOD has led me through them not someone else who has a different opinion. All of our questions will be answered one day, but for now God(Jesus) and I are quite comfortable. It's like others have said, you put it into Faith and don't sweat the details. Do you look at a tree and think of the millions of atoms and biology in a tree? Some do. Or How could that tree be what it is? How does it know when to shed it's leaves? OR, do you just enjoy the beauty of the tree and enjoy when it changes colors and watch the leaves fall and maybe take a quiet stroll through them. It takes alot of the mystery and awe out of it when you discect every single thing and come up with more questions. Just feel it and rejoice in it!

-- Annie (mistletoe@earthlink.net), June 27, 2000.

Kathleen: I hadn't noticed too many posts from you lately and was wondering of you were still around. Glad you are.

You apparently haven't read my post(s). You say "You seem to believe that God and the Bible are subjective, that we each get to make up our own minds as to whether He is real and the Bible is true." That is entirely incorrect. Kindly read my response to Jim.

I'll reitterate. I KNOW God is a living presence in my life. There is no doubt of that in my mind and even without NECESSARILY believing in the literal physical ressurection of Christ.

You also say I seem to have a low opinion of God. Again, not correct. You seem to gloss over what I've said or ignore it or think I'm posturing for political correctness or whatever when, I'll say again, I have no argument with Christ or the bible, per se. I have several arguments with the narrow, confining, exclusive views of the fundamentalist take on things.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 27, 2000.

Interesting, to find this post this morning, after staying up late last night to watch Peter Jenning's (ABC) special on Jesus Christ. He interviewed a wide range of priests, biblical scholars, and other ancient historians, to learn what Jesus' life was REALLY like, aside from the biblical version. One of the most interesting things I learned was that Jesus was most likely only about 5 feet tall! And he was middle-eastern in appearance, with dark skin, hair, and eyes, and that he most likely had a ratty-looking beard, as did most male peasants in those days. The show was absolutely fascinating, and it challenged some widely held sacred beliefs, but Peter Jennings did so with genuine respect. Anyway, a transcript could probably be found if you looked at the ABC website. It definitely pertains to the topic of this thread.

-- Shannon (Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary) (gratacres@aol.com), June 27, 2000.

I don't want to be argumentative, but I would like to point out/correct a few things. First, Jesus Christ IS the only means by which we may be saved. Sure...every religion offers sanctification thorugh some means, but those means are false. Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. Secondly, the only reason we 'accept; Christ, as some of you have put it, is because Christ has taken us unto Himself and pre-ordained who is His and who is not. John 6:60-71 clearly illustrates the truth of Christ choosing us, not us choosing Christ.

"Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?" When Jesus knew in Himself that Hi disiples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? What then if you should see the Son of Man ascedn where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to youare spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been grandted to him by My Father." From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. Then Jesus said to the twelve, Do you also want to go away?" But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ the Son of the living God." Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, of rit was he who would betray Him ,being one of the twelve." Thirdly, you asked how we knew that the Bible was true? We know it is true because it says it is God's Word and that God is Truth. To those who do not believe it may seem like circular reasoning, but it is faith in the living God. Fourthly, you said that if you stray from the tune you will go to hell, or something along those lines. That is not true. It is true that if God has not chosen you, you are destined for eternal damnation and the fire of hell, BUT if you are chosen NOTHING can take you out of His hand. Once you are saved you cannot become, un-saved. Certainly being God's child does not cause you to be sin free, but it gives you the privelege, provided by Christ's death on the cross, of going to Him in prayer and repentance clothed in the righteousness of Christ. We are told in the Bible that if we go to Him for forgivness, He is faithful and just to forgive the sins of His children. It is a glorious promise we are given and His children cling to it and hope for the day when sin is no more, the judgement day. Being able to repent and be forgiven does not mean that we can sin as much as we like. We are commanded that if we love Him we will obey His commandments. We all will give an account for what we do in this life, but His children can look forward to that day with confidence that Christ our Saviour and propitiation for our sins, will mediate on our behalf and because he took our punishment upon Himself, we can stand in His righteousness. I've got to go, but I hope that you all will be open to discussion, as I am.

-- Abigail F. (treeoflife@sws.nb.ca), June 27, 2000.

John, I'll make one resonse to your direct question to me. It isn't my place to calculate, judge, or even wonder what you believe or why you believe as you do. What I am responsible for is my own beliefs and I am not so precocious as to pick and choose what parts of the Bible I will believe. For me to live without conviction, I need to believe it all without question. Yes, because of my background I struggle with analysing and logic which leads to unbelief. But the Bible tells us that God uses the simple things to confound the wise. Remember, it was the High priests and Scholars of the scrolls who didn't believe.

I totally agree with the above post talking about levels of faith and knowledge. The Bible is like the onion, it has layers which allow for gradual growth and the more you study with the help of the Holy Spirit, the deeper you go the more is opened to your understanding. I've found the whole process to be a totally mind boggling experience and the greatest thing to ever happen to me. They are telling the truth when they say it will change your life forever. Forever = now through eternity. I guess, what I'm saying is that if you want the whole package, you need to follow the directions. The more you sellout, the more is revealed. The whole thing is based on what you invest into it is what you'll get out of it. Seed time and harvest. Sowing and reaping. That theme runs true throughout the whole Bible. Over and over and over. I guess God isn't trying to hide anything. It is all up to you.

-- Jim Roberts (jroberts1@cas.org), June 27, 2000.

Thanks Jim: You said "It isn't my place to calculate, judge, or even wonder what you believe or why you believe as you do..." I think you may have misunderstood the gist of the question. I asked, if God is a living presence in your life, a believer, which I don't doubt btw, and a living presence in my life, a believer with a difference, how can that be? Thats what I was wondering about.

And yes, I agree with you and Shannon?. There are layers and layers. The deeper we get the more wonderous things become. Shannon I think it was who said that each of us have different levels of maturity, intellect, and spiritual insight.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 27, 2000.

John, Good morning! I thought and prayed about how to respond to you overnight. I figure I will cover your letter a step at a time. So here goes. "Am I correct in believing that you see the choice as "believe in me (God) or go to hell."? If so, some choice! You say you would not have me lockstepping to your tune yet to stray from that tune casts me into eternal damnation according to your way of thinking. What am I missing here?" In Genesis, the bible says that God created the Earth and all that was in it and then He created man. But in creating man he didn't just speak him into existence as he did all that came before, He breathed his own breath into him and man became a living soul. The bible discribes man as His poima(spelling is probably wrong. it is all geek to me. hee hee), His masterpiece. God loved man, and just as we set limits for our children for their own good he set limits for man. Man rebelled against those limits, and was necessarily punished, because although warned of the consequences of his actions, he chose to rebel. God is just, and justice required that his word be kept. This also is like unto a parent whose child breaks the rules all the while knowing that what he is doing is wrong, and the parent must keep his word about the consequences of that action. God told man that death would come upon him should he disobey, but man chose disobey anyway. Consequently Adam brought death not only to himself, but to all those who followed after him. The problem was that in spite of man's disobedience, God still loved him. God didn't want man to be eternally separated from Him. So God, just, but also merciful, provided man a way out. He gave mankind a second chance, even though mankind did not deserve it. John 3:16 of course, says it best, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotton son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." And here John lies the answer to your question, if you choose not to believe in Him, you will perish. And how do we know this? Because of the rarely quoted eighteenth verse: "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." But the question is what does the word "believe" mean. Is it simply to believe that he existed on earth as a good man? Is that acceptable? What does it mean to believe in someone? When the Bible speaks of belief, It means complete commitment. We can see that in Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." So not only do you have to believe he was Human. You must believed he was everything he claimed he was. What did he claim? Jesus claimed to be God. He knew no sin and was the perfect sacrifice to pay the debt we owed. "Do you little bit think its remotely possible that living in 21st century usa, that a person would not have heard the "good news" at least 50 times a year upon which to make an informed decision?" First of all, it matters not whether you have heard it fifty times a year I am commanded by God to spread the gospel. I do this happily, because it is indeed good news! Extra! Extra! Read all about it in God's word. "In doing so you dodged the question. In supporting Todd you praised Christians who would stand and "defend" the faith. I challenged the percieved need to "defend" the faith in that I don't recall that it was being attacked? What, in your mind neccessitates a defense? What is an attack?" --------------------------------------------------------------------- Well John actually, defending the faith is a phrase that comes from the new testament. The bible says christians should always be prepared to defend the faith. I suppose I interpret that to mean witnessing and demonstrating God's word in my life. As for attacking, I don't see anyone as attacking me at all. I do see society continually attacking God, and trying to dismiss His presence as the creator. I do see society falling for the lie of Satan, that man can be God. Isn't that what the serpent said to eve, "ye shall be as gods". "Whats being challenged by Colleen, sheepish, myself and others is not Christ or even the spiritual value of the bible, even if it was written by men. How can you say with certainty that what you believe the bible means is actually what it means? 2000 christian denominations around the world and YOU'VE got it right! You and every other fundamentalist on the planet who believes a little differently. Don't you think thats kind of arrogant and presumptious?" --------------------------------------------------------------------- Not at all. I am just trying to do what I feel God has called me to do. Simple as that. I have examined the Bible and studied it. I believe it is God's plan for mankind. I exercise that belief within my sphere of influence, and share with others the gospel of Christ as commanded by him. I am so thankful that he has given me the opportunity to share the wonderful thing that has happened in my life. "I haven't studied the bible alot, but some. I've gotten more out of the bible since I've studied buddhism and hinduism. I believe it gave me a greater depth of understanding, when I got beyond "church" dogma and the hand me down interpretation." --------------------------------------------------------------------- This is very interesting since neither hinduism nor buddhism teach the concept of a personal God. Both of those religions teach that man can achieve a state of enlightenment. That man through his own works and deeds can achieve greater heights. Tha man can be gods? very interesting indeed. And somehow you understand the bible better by studying them. The bible that teaches the imperfection of man. the bible that teaches that man cannot save himself no matter what he does. the Bible that teaches that only through experiencing christ and the Creator of the universe can man ever measure up to God's standards. The bible that teaches of an all-knowing, all-loving, all- powerful Personal God. MMMMM. "Trying to describe some of these things is like trying to grab a handful of air. The tighter we close our fist around the air the less of it remains within our grasp. An open palm contains more air than a closed fist. Our mind works that way too with truth." --------------------------------------------------------------------- Unless you know the one who made both the air and truth. God is truth. You can't achieve him, you must only believe in him. Believe in Him for all that he is. "Again, in closing, I have no argument with Christ. I have several with the commonly held meanings of what he said. comments???" Here I honestly don't know how what Christ said was unclear. Do you think he didn't mean John 3:16 and 18. Jesus said "If I have told you of earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things"

Little bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), June 27, 2000.

Got a couple of questions here, particularly for Abigail. If I can only be saved because God/Jesus has chosen me, what is the point of everyone trying to convert everybody. Sounds like the decision is up to God and I don't think any of us are going to change his mind.

Secondly, if God is a loving God, and I believe he is, why would he want to only save a few and let the others burn in hell? Doesn't make sense to me. Sounds more to me like some people just want to feel they are the "elect" like some kind of elitest club.

Sorry, but I believe everyone has an equal chance to enter heaven. They just have to live their life as God wants them to. Try to follow the Ten Commandments and treat their fellow man with love. Very simple message, very hard to accomplish. If we all did this, there would be peace and love throughout the whole world.

I sometimes dream about how nice it would be to live in a community that they only way you could live there was to love everyone else and not do any injury to them, i.e. accept your own responsibility to live in peace and harmony and put your ego aside and make your choices in life that are right for those around you not just for yourself. If you don't, you have to leave the community. Then it becomes a privilige to live in the community in that wonderful environment and others will start wanting to have what they have and will start coming and the community will grow, with the misbehavers being invited to leave. Guess it is my idea of Utopia. I hope to have it someday, even when I am still on this earth, because I believe it can be done. I believe we have the power to create our own peace on earth if we will just let go of our own egos and love others as we love ourselves. (Where have I heard that before? Hmmmm.)

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), June 27, 2000.

I don't know a thing about Buddism, except that, as I understand it,there are multiple gods according to this philosophy. Since the bible asserts that there is only ONE god, that tends to rule out anything with miultiple gods if the bible is true. Is the bible true? I believe it is, at least the old testament for sure, and I am also convinced of the gospels, Acts, and Revelations. I do think that much of the bible is misunderstood, sometimes grossly, when the culture and settings of the times are ignored or simply not researched. For example, some scholars consider Revelations to be kabbalistic, while many christians take it literally. As for the letters of Paul, i think that they are good advice, but they weren't written as scripture, they were written as letters to his friends. It confuses me when people quote Paul in a context that undermines or contradicts the gospels or old testament, as though Paul would have the authority to be greater simply because he wrote a letter? I think he would be horrified if he could see the lengths and liberties people have taken with what were only intended to be friendly letters, advice, and spiritual counsel for his friends during those times. I found the previous post about Peter Jennings saying Jesus was dark haired, dark skinned, with a beard to be humorous. What? You mean he wasn't blue eyed with light brown hair, and six feet tall? He was a jew, not just someone who happened to be living in Israel! Of course he looked like a jew. But it is interesting that they explained his apppearance by calling him a 'male peasant'! My main bones to pick with Christianity are the history and ongoing continuance of anti- semitism, which necessitates ignoring the culture of the bible, and also the context, and the other thing is that all thses churches seem to claim that thay are THE ONE, the one true church, and that if you aren't a member of their church you are in obvious or possible danger of going to hell! How can they all be the only true church? That is so arrogant. The gospels say that many are called but few are chosen, and that the way is narrow and few are they that find it. It seems to me that there are an awful lot of Christians, yet the scriptures say that the truth is not going to be popular or much followed. I'm not saying that the Christians are all deceived and going to hell, I'm just wondering why there are so many of them if they have the exclusive truth.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@transport.com), June 27, 2000.

Little Bit: You say "This is very interesting since neither hinduism nor buddhism teach the concept of a personal God." Not true! It depends on which sect of Hinduism or Buddhism you're listening to.

I see the whole issue like this. Suppose 4 people were asked to describe a house. Each person viewed the house from a different direction, one from the North, another from the south, another from the East and the last from the West.

When asked, the person from the north says "The house has a door and two windows." The one from the south sez, "No it doesn't, it has no doors and three windows." The person from the west sez "You're both wrong, the house has a dormer and two windows." and the last sez,"I don't get it. We're looking at the same house, and the house obviously has a window, a patio door and a fireplace with a stone chimney. Why can't you people see that?"

Now I ask, who's right and whos wrong in the example above? From what I can tell, they're all right, but only partially. Its not until you question each of them and compile the information that you'll get an accurate picture. We have a similar thing going on here with religious/spiritual topics.

You and abigail have attributed certain things to buddhism/hinduism which are not correct. Have either of you ever actually studied either of these belief systems? If you did you'd find many points in common with Christianity. Seriously, I'd suggest you read "Parallel Sayings". It might open you to the fact of a universal spirit which is transcendent of time/space limitations illustrated by Jesus saying "Before Abraham was, I am." and "I am the root and offspring of David..."

BTW, for any who may be interested, there is an excellent thread on Religioustolerance.org on the missing 17 years of Christ.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 27, 2000.

Amen Colleen! I think you're right on the mark.

Rebeka: Yes, some Buddhists do have several Gods as do the Hindus but both share the one Godhead concept. The "gods" are comparable to jungian archtypes, or Christian and jewish Angels.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 27, 2000.

I have been following the religion threads and have found it very interesting indeed. I am by no means a scholar where these issues are concerned and it sounds as though many of you have studied alot. I think the Bible is very clear about what it says maybe with the exception of Isaiah. Yes, you have to take into account the culturaland language differences of that time. I have found study and life application bibles helpful with that. It seems to me you either believe it or you dont. I really want to believe it, but somehow my logic or my sense of control wont let me. I'm afraid that maybe some important things have been left out because of space constraints or because certain things didnt suit the council that decided what would comprise the Bible. then I probably watch dicovery channel way too much(shows about evolution and such). I know Christians are just people that sin just like me but

have found it extremely difficult to break into the alredy established cliques and friendships. I would always do the inviting and things would go well but never any return interest. They seem too busy. It doewsnt seem they are the caring crowd they are supposed to be. I never received any guidance or discipling and every thing I learned has been mostly due to my own initiative. I've tried quite a few different churches and it seems to be about the same. John, I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish here. Do you want to be convinced or vice versa. If cristianity is a choice of believe or go to hell then the smart thing would be to cover your bases. I dont want to go to hell any more than the next guy nor do I want to be a god. I keep thinking if i study and go to church that eventually I'll have that relationship and knowing that some of you have. I envy that. So John it seems to me according to the Bible that it's Jesus or nothing. You accept it or you dont. The other influences you mention were chronologically speaking before Jesus but God was before them. We cant tailor this thing just to suit our ways. there does have to be a standard or as mentioned before things will go to hell in a handbasket. Little Bit I admire your stand on this and other posts. You make alot of sense. Denise

-- Denise (jphammock@earthlink.net), June 27, 2000.

Denise: You ask "John, I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish here. Do you want to be convinced or vice versa?"

No I don't want to be convinced because I am convinced. I'm convinced that the essence of Christs teachings is shared by many of the worlds religions. That, to me is very good news indeed.

I am puzzled and sometimes angered by the absolute refusal of "christians", usually of the fundamentalist stripe, to entertain the possibility that what they believe is largely shared by the other religions and the arrogance that I see when someone thinks they have a corner on salvation.

I am astounded by the absolute refusal to use reason, which is in no way in opposition to Christ, to ferret out the truth. I am apalled by the lack of comprehension and the unwillingness to broaden ones perspective of a universal spirit, when it in no way threatens the message of Christ.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 27, 2000.

Denise: I had to cut my previous post short. Something came up. To complete my response to you, you say "So John it seems to me according to the Bible that it's Jesus or nothing. You accept it or you dont."

Try to get beyond the historical personage of Jesus and think about the God and Holy spirit aspect of him. If you can do that you might understand about the universal spirit, how it always has been, always will be. Open your eyes to all around you and recognize that spirit in random acts of kindness. The motivating spirit of compassion and love which initiated the act is a part of the universal spirit and Christians are not the only ones who practice that. That spirit I accept wholeheartedly because it is the spirit of Christ.

Beyond that I'll take my chances.

There are none so blind as those who will not see. It applies here.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 27, 2000.

OK, John, I'm glad you're convinced. I mean that with sincerity and due respect. But dont you see, they are just as convinced and will not be moved any more than you will. Since they believe the Bible as the word of God, it says what it says and there is no reason to consider these other religions. They are telling you what they believe as they are commanded in the great commission. It's a good thing to be convinced because then you know where you stand. If you are frustrated by their unwillingness to reason, why does that bother you. Are you saying that you know better? Or are you not as convinced as you think? I ask hat because you seem to be pushing your views just as adamantly as the most Bible thumping fundamentalist would his.I would like to know more of what you are talking about without having to read the suggested book. i do wonder though as I mentioned before that God predates the men in your book and it says in the Bible that the Holy Spirit hovered over the earth at it's creation. I wonder whether the Holy Spirit had some influence over what your guys have been inspired to say. So yes, there could be some connection. Maybe they were helping to pave the way that would eventually lead to Jesus. Just a thought. Maybe I'm trying to find a way to reconcile both views. Denise

-- Denise (jphammock@earthlink.net), June 27, 2000.

>>I am puzzled and sometimes angered by the absolute refusal of >>"christians", usually of the fundamentalist stripe, to entertain >>the possibility that what they believe is largely shared by the >>other religions and the arrogance that I see when someone thinks >>they have a corner on salvation.

John, Try to put yourself in the shoes of a committed Christian, it's really not so puzzling. Imagine that one day your entire life is turned up side down, suddenly you have a new purpose for living and it was all done for you by Jesus. Imagine everything's changed, your not only a homesteader anymore, your a Christian homesteader! Your not only a dad or a husband, your a Christain dad or husband, your whole life and everything you do now centers on your personal relationship with your Savior. Now the very One that saved you and changed your life upside down is also the One that says there is no other way to the Father except through Him. And the very same One that changed your life is also the One that says go out and tell people that He is the good news, He is the Savior. Would you do other wise?

Don't be angry at us.

Todd O <>< IA.

-- Todd Osborn (Tosborn@cccglobal.com), June 27, 2000.

Todd and Denise: Its an issue of loving the sinner and hating the "sin." You are perhaps thinking similarly about me. I'd like to think we are all at least people of good will.

I understand, acknowledge, and respect the sincerity with which you all hold your views and I'm glad they have been helpful to you in getting your lives together. I do understand where most of you are coming from, tho I doubt if you believe that. In all these debates we've had here I have yet to hear anyone express anything like "Hmmm, maybe you have a point" or "Wow, I never looked at it like that before. Interesting." Not necessarily with my posts but Colleen, Sheepish and others have made some good points which I think are quite reasonable and are deserving of thot, rather than knee-jerk reactions.

Doesn't the bible warn us about being stiff-necked? What does that mean to you? Doesn't Jesus also call upon us to use our reason?

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 27, 2000.

Hey John,

The Eastern religions claim that Nirvana is achieved through death. But I don't think that Christians have a corner on changing that part of religion that they don't agree with.

John you claim you have the Christ and the spirit of God, but you reject the God and Jesus of the Bible. So what christ and god do you have? The god of this world, the god of this present age, the gods of the pagans? Is your christ one of the many false christs Jesus tells us about in the Bible?

Yes, John, you can take only the parts of the Bible you agree with, like peace and love, toss out the parts you don't like repentance and holiness, add a little Eastern mysticism, throw in some ancient occult, secular humanism and pantheistic philosophy and slap the name of Jesus on it, but what do you got? Mr. Potatohead! Behind your Mr. Potatohead god is the father of lies. How do I know this? Because the Bible teaches these things, and I accept these teachings as Truth.

The question was asked, why don't Biblical Christians accept that there may be another truth out there somewhere? Well, John for some of us it is a "been there, done that thing and it was a lie," thing. For others who avoided that hellish path, the Bible clearly states that our suffiency is in Jesus Christ, and the Bible is not to be added to, or taken away from.

If it is not Jesus and God of the Bible, it is the god of this world and one of the many false christs. Do you know the god of this world is? Test your spirits, John.

-- Laura (gsend@hotmail.com), June 27, 2000.

History goes back a long ways in other ways, too. To wit:

"The "Definition of the Council of Chalcedon," 451, was the end result of the struggle to understand the relationship of the three persons of the Holy Trinity. It is accepted as a symbol of Christian doctrine by the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, Reformed and Lutheran churches. The concern of Chalcedon is the humanity and divinity of Jesus Christ. Seeking a middle way, it says "no" to doctrines that deny either that Christ was truly human or that Christ was truly divine. Christ is both, the definition says, united to the First Person of the Trinity in his divinity and united to us in his humanity. Even today, some Christians experience Jesus only as God, others only as a human being. The contribution of Chalcedonwhich is now the mainstream of Christianityis an inclusive Christology that affirms that both experiences are true, but neither is complete without the other."

Peace.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), June 27, 2000.

Hello, all - John invited me here from another BB and, having read the posts in this thread, all I can do is throw up my hands and say, "What's the use??!!"

My take on things? If a person believes in a God not universally available to all in all sorts of different ways, a God who is supposedly "loving" yet offers only "one way" of "salvation," that person quite likely has serious self-esteem problems. The kind of self-esteem problems that lead some to be racist, others to be snobbish toward people of "lower station" in life, others to be stepping-on-bodies-competitive, etc., etc.

Some people can't or won't resort to the type of compensating mentioned above, but they still have to have a way to feel "special," so they're easily attracted to a religious philosophy that offers some modicum of superiority. Now you won't hear them SAY that. No, they're busily and "lovingly" trying to "save" other people--which in itself is evidence of a superiority stance adopted as compensation for feelings of inferiorty. Otherwise, why would they not be able to allow for the validity of the views of others?

-- dndylion (dndylion@swbell.net), June 27, 2000.

Ahhh, the reinforcements! Let me guess dndylion is from religioustolerance.org perhaps? Just guessing. And now that we've all been psycho-analyzed, and determined that we have a superiority complex, I can say your right. It's useless. I am totally devoted to Christ. God bless you, have a nice day.

Little bit farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), June 27, 2000.

Your responses for the most part, as well meaning as they might be, tell me that you just don't get it. You can have your exclusive Christianity. I'll partake of a spirit that includes all men and women of good will, regardless of race, nationality, or religion. Caring people of good will partake of the spirit, like it or not, believe it or not.

From my perspective good people you are the ones who are truly lost because you seem to be incapable of comprehending that the Christ I speak of IS the Christ of the bible.

BTW, the story of Christ is very similar to the Osiris myth of the Egyptians, borrowed to suit the ends of the early churchmen.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 27, 2000.

Dndylion, i must agree. No one will ever convince me that the native americans, who worshiped the "great spirit" as well as other nature sourced gods and spirits would be damned in eternity. I see them as being closer to God then most of us will ever be. It's sad that religion must cause such great controversy. I don't think it matters whether you believe in a strict translation (and how accurate is it...remember playing telephone line in school?) or if you believe God is nature all around us and within each of us. The bottom line is, how do you lead your life? We really only need one commandment: Do unto others.... That covers a decent moral life, no? Sue

-- Sue (sulandherb@aol.com), June 27, 2000.

John, personally I'd like to thank you for starting this thread. I think God's smiling on us all for taking the time to really discuss Him, whatever our viewpoints are. At least we all are intersted enough, huh? People will all have different views, especially on religion. Main reason is, man has had his hand in it for too long. I once knew a priest who was arguing (discussing) religion with a fundamental Christian about the Bible and Jesus in particular. They had some opposing viewpoints and she started quoting the Bible. He had pointed out some things which were wrong. She asked him how he could say what he did. His response was, he had read the Bible in the original Greek and it was different than the King James version. Now, I had always wondered how Christianity could have soooo many different ideas on what was right or wrong! I guess that's my main argument with organized religion, all of them. Since Jesus's time who knows what has been changed just to suit man or their church? And for what reasons? Are the things taught today, really what Jesus had in mind. For some reason I don't think so. Are our deeds as good as our words? Do we take the time to care for the poor (personally, not contributions or an offering in church), love and forgive our enemies, not worship money and power, speak a kind word? Look at all the hatred that has been done in the name of religion. Do people think Jesus would have condoned this? I think not. He had a very loving and simple message for us. We (men) are the ones who have complicated it. I think He would want us to pay more attention to what His true message was than to argue over Religious theology. I think some of us understand what you are trying to get across. It's hard for me to do on a computer, writing this, without talking face to face. We all believe what we are taught or learned and hopefully some of us will be right. God Bless.

-- Annie (mistletoe@earthlink.net), June 27, 2000.

John and Annie, I totally agree with you both as well as some others. I think the point we are trying to make is that many Christians, are the least tolerant of their fellow man. It is their way or the highway. Some how, they like the feeling of superiority they get from their belief that they are the chosen ones and they don't want to let go of that. The point we are just trying to make is that it really doesn't matter how we find God, all that matters is that we find him and live the life he wanted us to live. We should accept all of humanity in a loving way in spite of our differences whether they be religious, ethnic, racial, age or whatever. And we should not try to change them. It is not our job to change each other. It is our job to change ourselves to be more loving and caring of our fellow man. One of the things that fascinates me about this is that if everyone in the world got up tomorrow morning and decided they would be kind and loving to everyone they met that day and live the life God wants us to live, our world would be changed in an instant. Guess what. Jesus would show up too I'll bet. This is all he wants us to do. To me this would be heaven on earth.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), June 27, 2000.

Thank you Annie, sue, colleen, sheepish and others who've e-mailed me in support. Lets ALL dream a little dream with Colleen.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 27, 2000.

Here's a fundamental sticking point in this discussion:

Most opposition to the exclusive "Christianity" being complained about here seems to hold the view that man is basically "good", in need of a tuneup or a few rough edges honed off, but doing OK. And that they are capable of finding the truth by their own means.

The Christian stance is that all humans (even themselves) are irretrievably evil: "There is none righteous, not even one; There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one." (Romans 3:10-12) Everyone of us needs a Substitute Righteousness (Jesus) to be "good" enough to avoid the penalty of being evil (sinful).

I find it very interesting that (all?) other religions believe in the ability of man to become good or enlightened (or don't even recognize the need for redemption). Go around enough times to get it right and reach enlightenment. Change your karma by doing it better in this life (or the next). So, who's right? Are we gonna get it right eventually on our own or are we in an endless cycle of evil that can only be broken by a redeemer? Christianity seems to be the only voice in the wilderness of religions that starts with the premise that humanity is inherently evil.

Do we not see evidence every day of how wretched humanity really is? Do we really think that true evil is the work of a few bad apples? Do some of our daily acts of self-interest qualify as sin worthy of penalty?

Hopefully, we can start to understand how a certain "foundation" helps to build the framework of each view expressed here.

-- Mike O (olsonmr@yahoo.com), June 28, 2000.

Hi, Mike - For me, it's not a question of whether humankind is evil or not. It's obvious "we" are a mixture of what we call "good" and "evil." In fact, it can be just as easily said that "there is none who is [totally] evil, no not one."

The sticking point for me is the Christian fundamentalist twist on the human condition: God creates us, but God creates us evil? OK. God creates us good, but somewhere in the process of being born, or growing up as children, we inevitably become evil -- so evil that God can't stand us? Either way, here's this supposedly loving God keeping on creating folks who s/he knows are going to become reprehensible beings s/he can't stand. So why keep on doing it? Why doesn't this good and loving Creator quit throwing powerless and unsuspecting souls into a no-win situation?

Ah, but you say, "God has provided a 'way' for us to escape, i.e., Jesus. All we have to do is accept it." Sounds good, but the fact of the matter is that that "way" is NOT open to all, due to "accident of birth" or whatever. [Wait a minute. "Accident" of birth?!! Let's face it, God the Creator puts people into non-Christian cultures. Hmm-m.]

I have a mental image of a huge ocean. That's this world. Into that ocean God purposely tosses all of humanity. And when we start sinking and drowning he throws down one life preserver. Nope. Such a God is not my idea of "loving."

-- dndylion (dndylion@swbell.net), June 28, 2000.

It would seem that there is just no tolerance for Christians in the " all religions are one "crowd. Why cant you accept that some of us have walked the eastern, native american, buddhist etc.. road, found it to be empty and of no value in our lifes, met Jesus and became beleivers in Him, and rejected the useless things of the past? Some of you love to label us as "narrow minded" assuming we have never looked at things from your supposed lofty all inclusive perch, but the fact is that I and I'm sure others have been down the road you all are on now and found it sadly lacking.You think we should see value in the things we have rejected, but we cannot serve two masters. As for me and my house we shall serve the Lord. Mike

-- mike (mstydale@aeroinc.net), June 28, 2000.

Oh dear...I don't know where to start!! I guess I'll start with Colleen's post, which was directed primarily toward me. First of all, God is not ONLY a loving God. He is a holy, jealous God. He cannot stand sin and that is why we all deserve to burn in hell for ever, BUT for reasons we don't know, God chose to have mercy upon some and He sent His son to take our place on the cross. I is a mystery why God has chosen who He has chosen, but we know that He did not save everyone. Many people who have heard me speak of limited atonement complain that God would not force Himself on us. I'm not saying that He does. THE REASON WE CALL UPON HIM IS BECAUSE HE PUT HIS SPIRIT IN US.

-- Abigail F. (treeoflife@sws.nb.ca), June 28, 2000.

Well put Mike! That was the point I was trying to make when I asked why it bothered John ans dndylion so much that christians have chosen to believe what they do. It does seem like a reverse nontolerance. dndylion as far as man being created evil, it would be ridiculous to create us evil and then keep giving us chances. But my understanding is that God created Adam and Eve good. They in turn chose not to obey their loving father and chose evil by following the will of the serpent. That separated them from God and separated everyone that came after. When my children disobey me I dont give up on them. I continue to give them chances to make correct choices. I even set them up for success at times. I dont think we have the ability to make ourselves good by ourselves no matter how many lifetimes we get a crack at. Christianity makes alot of sense in a strange sort of way. It is interesting to learn about eastern religions and it is something to ponder. I am more than willing to listen to what they believe but it just doesnt make as much sense to me. For lack of better terminology I feel very drawn toward christianity and ponder it on a daily basis. I am not committed to it as yet but feel in my gut it is probably right. Could that be theholy spirit? I dont have this feeling about these other religions. I was not raised going to church and was raised by parents that were not raised with church so I dont think it is my upbringing that influences me. I married a man who comes from an unchurched family and doesn't understand why this concerns me so much. So its not his influence either. I still even feel it is right after feeling sort of snubbed at the churches I've been to. I just chalk it up to them just being people and that is not what this is supposed to be about. I have respect for your views and you as I have received more advice and guidance from the countryside forum than I have in church and this includes people that dont believe in God at all. I respect them and their knowledge just as much as I do christians. This going bqack and forth like this I dont think is accomplishing anything. I think it is time to throw your hands up( they worship that way in some churches you know :). Christians will not be moved to believe other than what the Bible says no matter what you present. The Bible's message is clear and there is no getting around it. Denise

-- Denise (jphammock@earthlink.net), June 28, 2000.

Oh dear...I don't know where to start!! I guess I'll start with Colleen's post, which was directed primarily toward me. First of all, God is not ONLY a loving God. He is a holy, jealous God. He cannot stand sin and that is why we all deserve to burn in hell for ever, BUT for reasons we don't know, God chose to have mercy upon some and He sent His son to take our place on the cross. I is a mystery why God has chosen who He has chosen, but we know that He did not save everyone. Many people who have heard me speak of limited atonement complain that God would not force Himself on us. I'm not saying that He does. THE REASON WE CALL UPON HIM IS BECAUSE HE PUT HIS SPIRIT IN US. Secondly, we are NOT called to convert people. Since we do not know who God has put the Holy Spirit in, we are to spread the gospel and tell all of the good news to everyone. Now to others, (I'm sorry I can't remember all your names, but I'm not talking to everyone of you, only those who are saying what I am about to make a rebuttal to) Buddhists, Hindus and Muslims do not worship the same God as we do. They may tell similiar stories of Him and His prophet, but in the case of those 3 religions I am quite sure that salvation is by works, NOT by faith alone as it is with Christianity. If I read you correctly, you are saying that there are many ways into heaven, then I hope that airline pilots don't believe as you do. In other words, let's hope they don't believe that there are many way into the airport. Exodus 20 clearly states that there is ONE TRUE GOD. "And God spoke al these words saying: I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to then nor werve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the thrid and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments..." I must go give a riding lesson, but hope to talk more about this in the near future.

-- Abigail F. (treeoflife@sws.nb.ca), June 28, 2000.

There seems to be alot of talk about God and Jesus. This is good. I haven't seen this much Christian action in ages. Really good to see it. Could this mean the time of the second coming is near. God bless you all and keep up the good talk.

-- Tammy bunger (jbunger@zoomnet.net), June 28, 2000.

Sorry, Mike, but I haven't seen too many "evil" three year olds. Evilness is something we learn from adults as we grow. It is not something we are born with. Unless you believe innocent children are evil. Maybe you do. Sometimes you have to open your eyes to see what evidence is in front of you instead of letting men who are long dead give you your truth.

Secondly, I don't have a problem with people who believe in Jesus. I happen to be a Christian myself. I just don't accept Jesus in the same context that some others do. I base my belief on my personal experience with Jesus and God rather than someone else's experience, i.e. those that wrote the Bible. That is the only problem I have with many, not all Christians. They are intolerant of anyone who does not believe exactly as they believe.

As an example, I live in Virginia. I have yet to find a church where blacks and whites worship together in relatively equal numbers (say even 60/40) as opposed to a token representation. The white Christians don't want the blacks in their church and the blacks don't want the whites in their church. Until Christians change this viewpoint, at least in the south, I will never believe any doctrine they are trying to preach because they are obviously not following the teachings of Jesus in that arena so why should I believe anything else they say. Many writings purporting to represent what Jesus said states to love your fellow man. So why don't you?

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), June 28, 2000.

John, I haven't had time to read all the responses, so maybe you've answered this. What I don't understand is, what's your point? You don't want to be convinced that the Bible is right, there's been several threads along this line, you seem to be doing your best to convince people your way is the only way, NO ONE IN THIS WHOLE WORLD IS TOLERANT OF EVERYTHING, if you were, you'd be tolerant of those that believe as we do. What is it you really want? Perhaps you've been hurt very badly? When you run so hard from something, you usually run right into it. God judges the heart. He knows who is truly seeking him, and once you are saved you don't necessarily change overnight, it can take a long time to be what God wants you to be. You don't go to hell because of what you do. You may go through a little bit though- for example smoking-cancer etc. You go to hell because you reject Chritst. God has made a wonderful plan that no one should rot in hell. God will give you the understanding for this IF you sincerely ask him. There's osmething more I want to tell you, but I won't do it unless you want me to.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), June 28, 2000.

Y'know Mike, you ask why is it that others don't get it when many current practicing Christians have been there, done that regarding eastern religions and it did not fulfill their needs and Christianity did. Thats fine---for them. If that is the path they relate to then that is the path they should follow. But merely because something did not work for you does not mean it has no value or truth for others. Mainstream Christianity which I was born into did not work for me thats why I explored elsewhere and found something that does work for me.

I told a simple little story illustrating the value of different perspectives in learning the whole truth about something yet no-one has commented on it. The story illustrates how everyone brings some truth to the table and I don't think anyone is entirely wrong or entirely right in this discussion or others before it.

As I've said a zillion times here in this thread I truly have no argument with either the bible or Christ and I am truly not worried about my relationship with him and God. Several of you have said its a one size fits all package and you accept it-all or nothing. IT seeming to be in your minds your specific interpretation of what things mean in the bible. Is it possible that what you take the bible to mean in any given passage is incomplete? or even wrong? Are any of you infallible regarding matters of the spirit and biblical interpretation?

Many of you say yes, we take the bible literally. If thats the case maybe the bible is about homesteading. I recall some comment about separating the sheep from the goats. If thats to be taken literally what relevance does it have in the spiritual sense?

Jim Roberts said there are layers and layers of truth, kinda like an onion. You peel one layer off and theres another. I've found that to be true.

According to some here its been preordained that some are chosen whether they want to be or not and the rest are left behind, with no hope of redemption. Even amongst your selves you can't agree about fundamental doctrine yet would have us "outsiders" believe you've got a lock on the truth.

I believe the bible says something about using reason to ferret out the truth. I try to do that. Alot of the fundamentalist position just doesn't make sense to me because it doesn't make sense to me.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 28, 2000.

Yes there are different interpretations about certain nuances. That's where the different denominations come from. but the core belief seems to be constant. That would be faith, repentance, and redemption. That is where I'm coming from when I say the Bible's message is clear. The eastern religions seem to say that a man can do it himself given enough life times. When I posted earlier I wasn't saying that 3 yr. olds are evil. What I meant was that we are born with that bent in us already and it is a constant struggle to always do the right thing. Even when we set out to do the right thing it doesn't always happen that way. Therefore a need for a saviour. we can never be good enough on our own. My hesitation with christianity is that I would find it difficult to put God before everything else. I love my family first. If put to task I probably would not put God before them. Do any of the christians out there have any thoughts about that. I feel it would be wrong to enter into a relationship where I know from the start that I wouldn't put God first. Or am I expexting too much and does that type of commitment come with maturity? Denise

-- Denise (jphammock@earthlink.net), June 28, 2000.

Hell and Damnation!!! Is that all that "Christians" worry about. It seems that we are wanting to be "saved" and believe in Jesus, for the SOLE purpose of not going to hell. Did he not stand for alot of other things? Are all the other things he preached secondary? Can we pick just one thing (i.e. just believing he is the way to heaven) and not live our lives without the other things he stood for? Why would He have taken the time to teach us how to live our lives? Every time I turn on the TV and see an evangelist, all they talk about concerning Jesus is being saved so we don't go to Hell. Jesus stands for alot more. Why don't they preach more of it? Instilling fear, is why. Catholics don't preach "born Again". Are they wrong? I was raised Catholic and I can never remember in my life not knowing and loving Jesus. Why would I need to be born agin, if I knew him since I can remember? Why are they right and I'm wrong? What about all the severely handicapped people? Are they going to hell? They're not born again? This probably has nothing to do with exclusion as John was speaking of, but then again maybe it does. Maybe we need to open our arms and hearts more.

-- Annie (mistletoe@earthlink.net), June 28, 2000.

Cindy: You say I seem to be convinced that the bible is incorrect. Again I say for the umpteenth time, I have no argument with the bible. There is much beauty, wisdom and truth in it and it applies to all of humanity. The same is also true of the scriptures of other religions around the world. What I do take issue with is the narrow interpretation of it which would seem to exclude most of the worlds population because they don't call themselves Christians. There are as many ways of understanding the bible as there are people, some more correct or accurate than others. If your way works for you and others Praise God! If my way works for me and others, Praise God!

You say maybe I've been hurt by something in the past relating to religion. Maybe, but if so I truly don't recall or think so. As a child I asked questions of my pastors and the answers were unsatisfactory. They didn't make sense to me. Mainstream Christianity did not satisfy my seeking soul so I looked elsewhere and came later to realise that truth is truth, no matter where you find it. Universal truth is universal truth, no matter where you find it. I understand Jesus to be the personification of a universal spirit whose works and words can be found thruout the worlds spiritual literature.

When this thread is done we'll all go our separate ways, living our lives the best we can in whatever spiritual path that works for us. Maybe as a result of sharing our respective views on these things we've all grown in knowledge and wisdom. Denise: Since you asked this of the "christians" you may not want my opinion, but here it is any way. You say "My hesitation with christianity is that I would find it difficult to put God before everything else. I love my family first. If put to task I probably would not put God before them. Do any of the christians out there have any thoughts about that. I feel it would be wrong to enter into a relationship where I know from the start that I wouldn't put God first." I think putting God before family means that, for example, one of your children is accused by another of doing something wrong. As a God loving parent do you throw your child to the wolves, do you defend their actions without getting the facts before passing judgement or do you get the facts, find your child to be wrong and determine the appropriate corrective measures?

I've known people who's children could do no wrong. Even when presented with irrefutable evidence that the child screwed up they took it as a matter of family loyalty to defend the child thus shielding them from the natural consequences of their actions. Is it the action of a God loving parent to shield the child from the consequences of their bad behavior? I don't think so.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 28, 2000.

That'a not what I meant John. Of course I would weigh the evidence and mete out correct discipline. I'm thinking more along the lines of paying a proper tithe. If my family needed something, the money would be spent on my family first. Or especially with religions that do alot of missionary work where leaving your family for awhile would be necessary. I wouldn't do it. Mormon kids leave home for a couple of years and even interrupt college educations to godo missionary work. If given that choice I would stay in school. I'm not Mormon, but it is quitewadmirable how dedicated they are. I realize not all are called to do such things and I probably would not be called either.Some say they are willing to give up everything even their life inthe name of Jesus. Many in history have done such. That's just not me even thogh that may seem shortsighted in the eternal perspective. Denise

-- Denise (jphammock@earthlink.net), June 28, 2000.

Denise, what you say is true. When we accept Christ, we accept the fact that we will do things his way from now on. Our priorities become God first, family second and everything else follows. We all have to make that decision. Be comforted by the fact though, that all of God's promises apply to your children as well. And in fact, God's word commands me to be a good wife and mother. After all God is the author of the family. What you have to realize is that God loves you and he loves your family too. Do you really think that the God who created you, and sent his son to die for you, wants anything but the best for you? It is difficult to let go of the control that we feel we must have. I am praying for you.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), June 28, 2000.

John, I didn't ask if you'd been hurt relating to religion, just thought maybe you were hurt somewhere in life. Perhaps a betrayal. That's one of the main reasons I love being a real Christian so much. I've learned to forgive and for the first time in almost 48 years I'm learning what being a child is all about. When you come to God through Jesus, He gives you what you need. Denise, when you come to Christ and surrender your will(which can be a gradual process- He'll be there when you're ready) He will give you what you need and be your strength when He asks you to do something you may not think you would want to do. And oh, the blessings that you receive for being faithful, you might want to read the book of Job and then discuss it with a pastor or someone really sensitive to that book. And just as Little Bit is, I'll pray for you also.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), June 28, 2000.

Hi John,

I have another analogy for you. Let's discuss rat poison. Rat poison is made up of 95% good, wholesome grain. The other 5% is deadly poison, causing the entire content to be deadly poison.

So it is with deception and lies. They work so well because they contain 95% truth. That 5% lie causes the entire content to be deadly to your spirit.

So when we say "Don't eat the D-CON", it is because of that 5% poison. If you want good wholesome grain, eat 100% good wholesome grain. But you are replying, "Everybody else is eating the D-CON, it must be good." They have not yet drank the water, either. That 5% poison is very sweet, indeed. Read the label, John.

It is by scripture that shows Jesus is the Christ, so we must stay 100% in the scripture lest we be tainted with poison. There is much room for lively debate using only the Bible. That is how we Christians grow in knowledge is through Bible study and Biblical debate. (and prayer and submission to the Word of God)

God's grace abounds for us sinners. He gives us every chance to come through that narrow gate. This door has been offered to you many times, John, it is YOU who are rejecting the Word of God, it is not us rejecting you.

It is our responsibility as Christians to offer salvation to the lost and correction to the brother in error using scriptural principles only. As you claim to be a brother in Christ, I offer this correction to you in a loving way. Submitting yourself to Christ and the lessons of the scriptures 100% will not only give you everlasting life, but the fruits of the Spirit, abundant life and blessings beyond measure, an intimacy beyond any comprhension and a freedom from every bondage. Don't just get your feet wet, jump in over your head.

John, I recall from another thread that you embrace alternative healing methods rooted in ancient occultic practices, you defended this as okay, as long as it works,even if it is against scripture. The book of EZEKIEL and many passages in the Bible tell of how God's people embraced foreign gods, bringing their idols and occultic practices right into the Temple of the Lord. God withdrew His Spirit from His Temple and His people, when they refused to heed correction. Then He turned them over to their enemies.

I am curious about your views on the Virgin Birth.

-- Laura (gsend@hotmail.com), June 28, 2000.

Denise: Tithing to the church is not the same thing as giving to God, tho I can understand why the church would have you believe that.

Laura: Whether you reject me or not is of small concern to me, tho rest assured if your car broke down on the road next to my place, I would help you get on your way again, or if your health and welfare was being threatened in some way that I'd be able to help, I would. Its not about acts, its about the spirit that drives the acts.

As to the virgin birth, I dunno. I do know, back in the days of Christ and before, it was not an uncommon thing. Pharoes, ceasers, even Plato were said to be born of a virgin. It is a fairly common mythological theme.

Practically speaking, from what I understand, parthenogenesis is not unknown in biology but it is very rare.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 28, 2000.

Sorry about the confusion of my post(s). It seems I posted the same thing twice, except with more on the bottom the 2nd time. Sorry about that. Anyway, in regards to the discussion which seems to be a very diverse and confusing one...You mentioned above, John, that tithing is not the same as giving to God. You are perfectly right because no one can give to God what is already His. Tithing is our response and a way of our thanking Him for what He has given us. You, (John), also said that we could be saved our way and you yours. Sorry, but there is no way unto Christ but through Christ and if you truly believe that Scripture is the infallable Word of God then you cannot argue with it. I must go again, but may be back tomorrow. Good night!

-- Abigail F. (treeoflife@sws.nb.ca), June 28, 2000.

Abigail: "and if you truly believe that Scripture is the infallable Word of God then you cannot argue with it." I don't. Nuff said

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 28, 2000.

Now I can see why wars were fought in the name of Christianity! Thanks for helping me get the big picture!

Blessings to all.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), June 28, 2000.

Jesus said," I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me". If you have no arguement with Christ then how can one argue that there are other ways? What Christ said about himself is very exclusive so was he lying when he made that statement? As far as the leaders of other beliefs are concerned, I know that they are dead. Christ was ressurected and lives, He conquered sin and death. If the ressurection is not true, then my faith is in vain.

It was only after I received the Holy Spirit by accepting the gift of salvation through the blood of Christ, that I was able to read and understand the bible. "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1 Corinthians 1:18)

Yes it is true that Christains are sometimes their own worst enemies. When we fail to walk our faith the world looks at us and determines that we are no different than anyone else. The truth is that God doesn't want anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

May God touch your heart with the truth.

-- Kathy (jubilant@ncweb.com), June 29, 2000.

Kathy: You say "Jesus said," I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me". If you have no arguement with Christ then how can one argue that there are other ways?"

For the last time --- Jesus was the embodiment and personification of a universal spirit, transcendent of time, always has been, always will be. From my view I have no argument with Christ. The requirements for communion with god thru that spirit have always been the same---to love one another, to cultivate wisdom, etc. Those simple requirements get lost in a flood of verbiage in all the religions, christian and non christian alike but they are there none the less. Some call it the perrenial philosophy, because it is the root of all the world religions. The works and influence of that spirit can be seen thruout them all.

What is so hard to understand about this simple, sublime concept? Why does it seem to be so threatening to you of "faith"?

I've learned a couple things from this thread. One is the use of reason seems to be anathema to you. I've asked this more than once why but no-one has cared to respond. The other is that when Jesus does return, you'all will likely be calling him the anti-christ because I'm quite certain he'll be saying things you won't want to hear.

Often belief is equated to faith. Personally, I think thats mistaken. The faith is in the knowing or experience, not the manmade belief construct. Some of you have said the peace of the lord has come upon you since you've been born again. You've turned to God in a time of need, were born again, and now your life and inner self is peaceful. Good, I'll buy that and I'm glad of it. I believe God is gracious, loving, forgiving etc and why wouldn't he help a sincere, well meaning soul out?

So now, from the believers perspective, they think, hmmm, the peace is here, my life is getting on track, I read the scriptures, before and after the second birth, this must be confirmation of what I believe, and commence to converting the world. Actually I can see how you might arrive at this conclusion. Where my problem is is the thinking that seems to come along with it.

You all say, well---it worked for me. It must be because I believe this or that. Therefore this and that must be true. And if its true for me, it must be true for everyone else. In order to remain faithful to God, I must not stray from this path of "belief" that works and its the only path thats worked for me so it must be the only path that works---period. You all seem to be afraid to entertain the posibility that another path which is not named Christian, and BTW, many that are, could possibly contain truth also. And you all seem to be absolutely unwilling to see the universal aspect of the spirit of Christ.

It makes me sad. You're closing yourselves off to a very enriching attitude which would lead you to a more loving, less isolationist attitude, which would be far more likely to bring you even closer to God and your fellow man.

Denise: You asked a while back, what is the purpose of this thread. Perhaps I wanted an opportunity to share some really good news but there are few here that have ears to hear.

Laura: I'd asked for a response and comments to the little analogy I offered on perspective. Instead you offered one of your own. I can see some validity in it. It says to me theres 95% truth some of what we read and 5% bs.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 29, 2000.

John, I still don't have time to read this whole thread, but I did happen to read something you said. You said you "wanted to share some really good news", well we born again Christians have the best news. You said we could be "more loving" and "closer to God" you can't get any closer to God than through Jesus Christ and a person who really surrenders his life couldn't be more loving(you learn forgiveness). You said something about other "paths" containing truth, that's true they contain some truth-bits and pieces,even satan believes in God. Christianity contains the whole truth. The Bible is not open to your own interpretation. The Holy Spirit reveals the truth to you. Something you obviously don't know about is how the denominations are coming closer together, that is the real Christians in the denominations. It's happening all over the world. That tells us volumes. From my experience with "other religions" and study, I can see why you would be so confused. I also see how easy it is to be in those religions.(paragraph) God doesn't want puppets and we cannot work our way to heaven. Why do you want to make something so hard, that's so easy? Have you ever thought that the reason you run so hard is because God may have a wonderful purpose in your life and satan's working hard(overtime I'd say) to keep you from it? Can you put into a capsule your real philosophy? Straight forward and honest? You said something on this forum differently that you did on a private e-mail to me. I said all that to say this: Why should we Christians settle for second rate when we have the best?

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), June 29, 2000.

Cindy, I found it very interesting to read what you said to John and then compare it to what John said. John's comments were full of love and tolerance for those with other viewpoints than his own and yours were just full of attack and superiority towards him. Which one of you truly is closer to God? John certainly is in my book just by his words and actions. Regardless of the path he took to get there, he obviously has arrived. I'll pray for you.

John, I did notice your analogy and found it excellent. No matter what side of the house we enter from, we are all trying to get into God's house even if we enter through different doors or a window. It doesn't matter as long as we enter.

I also noticed that none of the Christians which have been so outspoken on this thread responded to my comment on the lack of mixing of races in Christian churches in the south. That seems to be something that is just fine with them even though Jesus obviously teaches otherwise. I guess some just like to ignore the teachings they don't want to follow. It is this kind of hypocrasy which has kept me away from Christian churches even though I am a very spiritual person. They preach one thing and do another. I, too, wonder how many will recognize Jesus when he comes again. He obviously won't be teaching everyone's doctrines because they are different so I guess they will just try converting Him to their beliefs. I truly believe that only those that see love in their fellow man will recognize Him. It won't matter what doctrine they have learned. Love is the way to know Him.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), June 29, 2000.

Colleen, I did read and ponder about the lack of race mixture in the southern churches. I'm not in tne south but there isn't alot of mixing here either. It's not because other races wouldn't be welcome. I think it has more to do with a persons choice of where they live. There are very few peole of other races where i live. Most people try to go to church near where they live. I think it's as simple as that. Since different ethnic groups seem to have their own customs and culture, I can see that people live near other people similar to themselves because it is familiar and more comfortable for them.

I think it was Sheepish that said she could see from this why so many wars were fought over religion. Me too! It just makes me wnat to say forget it!

John, you sound like you're a great guy. I wouldn't mind for you to be my neighbor. You taught me a new word today! anathema- I cracked out the dictionary for that one.

well my curiosity probably wont let me drop this thread, so I'll be checking in.But I almost think we're beginning to beat a dead horse here. Denise.

-- Denise (jphammock@earthlink.net), June 29, 2000.

Colleen, As far as race goes I have 2 black sons-in-law and 8 bi- racial grandchildren and no problem with any of them as far as race goes. The problem with typing answers instead of hearing them is you don't know what the emphasis or attitude is. Anger or compassion and understanding.I do speak with the voice of experience of what John speaks about and on his personal e-mail level. God Bless You and I've been praying for you for several weeks now.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), June 29, 2000.

John, I think that you are just trying to get a rise out of people. You seem to be trying to start an argument!! I haven't studied any other religions, because I don't feel I need to (or should). You believe that you are right, and I believe that I am right. Are you willing to change your position????? I doubt you are. Now, why do you expect me to change mine???? Why should I bend, when you won't?

You cannot take part of the Bible, read it, believe it and put it into practice in your life, and just throw the rest away! In answer to your original question, yes, I believe the Bible literally. To me it is an actual documentation of the history of the world since Creation. Why are you so willing to believe what everyone else has written, but not the Bible? You seem to put a lot of stock into Hinduism and Budhism (spelling?). You seem to take all of that very seriously and literally, why not the Bible?

I believe it was you who asked (on another religion thread) how can we be so sure that the Bible is historically accurate (if it wasn't you, then I apologize). Well, were any of us there at the signing of the Declaration of Independance? No, but we believe it happened the way history says it did. Why? We weren't there. We take it on faith that it happened (and remember, all we have is documentation, no living eye witnesses, isn't that what the Bible is, documentation of Jesus' life?). It is the same with the Bible. Being a Christian means having FAITH! The Bible is clear on this, if you do not believe, you will not be saved (but then if you don't believe what the Bible says, then I guess it really doesn't matter).

I do not attend church (I used to be Baptist), I homechurch with some friends. We feel that today's church is not Biblical. I don't know about all the denominations, I just try to follow what the Bible says.

I am sorry John, but I don't believe that you can know the God that I know if you don't believe in the resurection. I believe that the Bible is very clear on this. Jesus was God's son, He was God. He came to earth in human form. I believe in the virgin birth, I believe in the miracles, I believe that He died for your sins and mine, I believe that He rose again on the third day. I believe (literally) every word that is printed in the Bible!! I do believe that I am right on this, and I will not back down from my beliefs. I believe that you will probably try to find fault with my statements, and in your eyes there probably will be fault in them. I don't ever intend to cave into believing in any other religions or gods. I will not read the Hindu bible (or whatever) or study budhism, because I believe that it is a sin against my God to study/worship other gods.

If you are not willing to believe that what I am saying is the truth, then don't expect me to believe that what you say is the truth. But, don't be mad at me for my beliefs. I am not mad at you for yours.

-- Linda (botkinhomeschool@yahoo.com), June 29, 2000.

I just want to say I agree with Cindy and Little Bit. I too am praying for you John and also Colleen. Not because it will bring anything to me such as "I told you so" but so that I might meet you some day in Glory and you can experience the Love of God while we live through the trials of this world. God bless you all.

-- barbara (barbaraj@mis.net), June 29, 2000.

No, John, 95% grain 5% RAT POISON, not b.s. B.S. is soft squishy and make the garden grow. Rat poison is sweet and deadly to all who eat of it.

John, I am sorry that you don't believe me, but the "universal christ spirit" is the god of this world, Lucifer, Satan himself, the father of lies. You cannot worship the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham if you cannot believe the Bible itself.

I am not saying you are evil, and I am not rejecting you. If I have a flat tire, I would appreciate your help. When you are thirsty and hungry I will feed you and offer you drink. When you offer me D-CON, I have to say, "no thank you, I don't do rat poison."

Colleen, I attend interracial churches. When I was in Oklahoma, I was shocked at the racism and there were churches I would noever step foot in because I don't do religion. I did meet young Christian women of different races who had never spoken to someone of a different race. This is a CULTURAL thing, not a Christian thing. I had the pleasure of facilitating interracial friendships with these women. I also got to experience an awesome move of the Lord in a jailhouse ministry where the black girls were laying hands and Nazi lesbians were on their knees, repenting and confessing and the Holy Spirit was touching everyone....I could go on about THAT.

Colleen, John, do you really believe that when Jesus comes back he will be walking and talking and teaching and preaching universal ONE WORLD FAITH? If you do, why do you believe this?

-- Laura (gsend@hotmail.com), June 29, 2000.

Linda, Barbara and Laura, Well said!

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), June 29, 2000.

Hey..did any of you guys catch the online chat with Dr. John Dominic Crossan? If you did, what did you think? This is one powerhouse scholar in the world of Christianity...I don't have his bio, but you can check him out online. He is very well respected.

Anyway, he said (in reply to a question) that it has been common knowledge in seminaries for the last 100 years that Matthew and Luke copied Mark. Again, in answer to a question, he said that it was unfortunate that this information hadn't been shared with the laity, but now's the 21st century and welcome!

Since I don't mind that priests and pastors have known about this and not the rest of us (except of course for the power issue of having kept us in the dark!)...how would you feel if new, authenticated, archival evidence revealed that some of what we think we know about the New Testament has alternative sources or meanings? Or new information? Does that potentially shake your faith?

I know there's more out there that we don't know, and yes, I have faith, so the words don't shake me up that much, but sheesh! Doesn't it just awaken those curious bones in your body to think that there's so much more out there? That stuff could challenge, or better yet, support Jesus' history?? WOW. I think it's cool. I look forward to all the research and scholarship and whatever else the "powers that be" (in this case secular) decide to "share" with us! Remember, God doesn't need us puny humans to defend Him!

BTW, Buddha was an historical figure who preceded Jesus by about 500 years. I can't prove it any more than I can prove anything, but just thought I would share it.

Peace and Joy!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), June 29, 2000.

Colleen, Sheepish, Annie and others, thanks for speaking up. To the others, thanks for the prayers. I must need them as I pray for you as well.

One of you asked, did I start this just to raise a ruckus. No, that was not my specific intention, but I suspected it would.

Laura: "Colleen, John, do you really believe that when Jesus comes back he will be walking and talking and teaching and preaching universal ONE WORLD FAITH? If you do, why do you believe this?"

Well, for my part, I would hope that he would. At least I hope he would help us all recognize the truths and the needs we hold in common and that above all else that we should love and respect one another which truly is at the root of all the worlds religions. That wouldn't necessitate one world religion but it would bring us closer to a unified vision for humanity in general, a cessation of wars, and a caretaking of all of humanity and the earth. And if he didn,t, and given the opportunity, I'd ask him why not.

I had to chuckle a little bit at that question. Assume, for a moment that all the prosthelytising that you folks do was 100% successful. Wouldn't we have a ONE WORLD FAITH then?

As an aside, someone commented about the "racial divide" in some of the churches. Denises own experiences as a caucasian would seem to bear this out regarding trying to be accepted as a contributing member of a congregation, snubbed because she wasn't a member of the ruling clique.

Someone asked something like if I take the Hindu and Buddhist scriptures literally why not the bible? First, I don't take them literally. It seems most of the world scriptures are, at least in places, written in a symbolical language which reveals levels and levels of understanding. This is also true of the bible. Recall the parables. Was Jesus speaking literally or was he speaking figuratively? Kinda like the analogy I gave with the house. Was I literally talking about a house or did I use it to illustrate a point about perspective?

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 30, 2000.

It's hard to remember who said what and the things I'd likeThe Bible is not open to your to respond to. So this one's for Cindy: You ask/say "Christianity contains the whole truth. The bible is not open to your own interpretation. The Holy Spirit reveals the truth to you."

I'll address these one at a time."Christianity contains the whole truth." Christ (you know, that universal spirit thing) Christianity does not.

"The bible is not open to your own interpretation." Yes it is, and yours, and everyone else. Its obvious to me at least that this is so. Even amongst your selves you've evidenced differences in interpretation. Thats as natural as a rising sun. Any given verse in the bible will mean something different to each of us. That simple observation is the crux of my query in fact.

"The Holy Spirit reveals the truth to you." Perhaps it has.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 30, 2000.

Of all the BB I go to I like this format the best but I do wish it would let us edit or at least review the entire thread while we're posting. In the previous respons to Cindy I had a cut and paste error at the beginning and have something else saved in paste so I hope it doesn't cause any confusion.

Two more things for Cindy. You say "God may have a wonderful purpose in your life ---" Perhaps I'm serving that purpose now.

You asked for a summary of what I believe. Read this thread and it'll give you a pretty good idea.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 30, 2000.

John, while I haven't had the time to read through this whole post since my earlier one (been busy picking berries, making pickles, snapping beans, and working on the truck), I have read some of the latter posts. And as I've been pondering an additional reply, I find myself asking how / why you believe that "Jesus was the embodiment and personification of a universal spirit"? What led you to this conclusion? Nowhere does the Bible teach us this. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus even hint of this, and He was very candid about who He was!

You also mentioned the "lost" years of Jesus, and I did take the trouble to find the thread you mention and read it, although I have read about this topic in the past elsewhere. And I disagree entirely with the whole idea that Jesus studied with Buddas.

If Jesus did actually study in the east, why is it that He and His disciples NEVER quote any text except the Old Testament as Law? Why did Jesus say "It is written" when he affirmed the truths of the Old Testament? Why is it the phrase "It is written" is never used to affirm the teachings of another religion? Why is it ONLY Jewish law that Jesus obeyed? Why is it only Jewish prophecy that is fulfilled?

Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me" (John 14:6). Jesus didn't claim to be one of many equally legitimate paths to God, or the way to God for His day only. He claimed to be the only way to God - then, now, and forever.

Personally John, I cannot believe in a Star Wars like universal force. But I do agree with you that many world religions have similar underlying messages as Christianity. HOWEVER how many others teach that man cannot save himself through his works alone? Even Jesus said works without faith is no good!

I have experienced the workings of the Holy Spirit in my life, and I have experienced the workings of other spirits in my life. And ever since choosing the Holy Spirit, I can look back in my life, and see how truly blessed it has been.

I haven't been raised to blindly follow the teachings of the Bible. I have chosen to be a Christian. Perhaps part of your problem with fundamentalists is that many of them are humans having a Christian experience, and view themselves as such. But they should be viewing themselves as Christians having a human experience! I for one do!

-- Eric in TN (ems@nac.net), June 30, 2000.

John-I wasn't accusing you of having an argument with the Bible, but was saying that if you believe that Bible is True and is the only rule by which we are to live, then you can't believe there are other ways to heaven, besides Christ. "No one comes to the Father except by me." Also, you boldly said that we would think that Christ at His second coming, was the anti-Christ. When Christ comes again it is going to be with a trumpet blast and He will descend from the air and divide the sheep from the goats and raise the dead from the grave and "every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." There will be NO question as to who Christ is. You also said that we were against using reason, or something along those lines. We cannot prove anything! It is by faith that we believe these things and know them to be true. We use the Bible when "proving" the Bible, but to unbelievers it makes no sense. You also said that the Bible is open to your own interpretation. I'm sorry, but its not. You can interprete things differently than someone else, but there is only ONE TRUTH.

Eric in TC- Actually, Christ said faith without works is dead. Our works are nothing to Christ and cannot atone. Only His blood makes us clean and He gave us faith, but that faith is dead unless we obey. If we are truly saved we will produce fruit. Perhaps that is what you were saying, but I wasn't sure. And remember, you cannot give yourself merit for being a Christian. The only reason you came unto the Father, was because He, in His everlasting grace and mercy put the Holy Spirit in you, so that you could put yur hope and trust in Him. Perhaps, that is also what you believe, but again I wasn't sure. Anyway, I really enjoyed your post. Thanks everyone for the discussion...I may be back tomorrow. God bless!

-- Abigail F. (treeoflife@sws.nb.ca), June 30, 2000.

I haven't been raised to blindly follow the teachings of the Bible. I have chosen to be a Christian. Perhaps part of your problem with fundamentalists is that many of them are humans having a Christian experience, and view themselves as such. But they should be viewing themselves as Christians having a human experience! I for one do!

-- Eric in TN (ems@nac.net), June 30, 2000.

Eric: You ask "I find myself asking how / why you believe that "Jesus was the embodiment and personification of a universal spirit"? What led you to this conclusion?"

It makes sense to me. He, Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I am". He also says "I am the root and offspring of David..." One of the characteristics of universality is transcendence of time, you know, always has been, always will be.

You say "And I disagree entirely with the whole idea that Jesus studied with Buddas." Despite what the scriptural and documented evidence clearly demonstrates? What does the Bible say about the missing years?

If Jesus did actually study in the east, why is it that He and His disciples NEVER quote any text except the Old Testament as Law?"

For the same reason I don't quote the Gita, sutras, tantras etc. to you. While there may be truth in them, because they come from another culture their credibility would automatically be discounted, because they come from a foreign land whos culture and values may differ from your own. On the other hand, if I was quoting chapter and verse from the bible to you, you might be more likely to give credence to what I'm saying.

You say "Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me" (John 14:6). Jesus didn't claim to be one of many equally legitimate paths to God, or the way to God for His day only. He claimed to be the only way to God - then, now, and forever."

I've attempted to explain this before, to no avail. I'd take another stab at it but I suspect it will be a waste of time because you don't accept the universality concept and my entire argument rests on that idea.

You say "Personally John, I cannot believe in a Star Wars like universal force. But I do agree with you that many world religions have similar underlying messages as Christianity. HOWEVER how many others teach that man cannot save himself through his works alone? Even Jesus said works without faith is no good!"

The presumption in your argument is that faith is not a component of other religions. You are mistaken. The spirit in which we perform the works is the deciding element. Do we perform the works for our own benefit or do we perform the works for the welfare of others without thought to our self? And whether you know it or not, other religions rely on the Grace of their god also.

I have experienced the workings of the Holy Spirit in my life, and I have experienced the workings of other spirits in my life. And ever since choosing the Holy Spirit, I can look back in my life, and see how truly blessed it has been.

Ditto!

You say "I haven't been raised to blindly follow the teachings of the Bible. I have chosen to be a Christian. Perhaps part of your problem with fundamentalists is that many of them are humans having a Christian experience, and view themselves as such. But they should be viewing themselves as Christians having a human experience! I for one do!

I'm not sure I understand the last part of that paragraph. Is it like "are we a body with a spirit or a spirit with a body?"question.

The problem I have with fundamentalists I've tried to explain. Even if the Bible is inerrant, regardless of its source, human or divine, and for the sake of argument we'll assume it is inerrant, what makes you all so certain that your understanding is the correct one considering that to err is human, to forgive, divine. Each of us will look at something or read something and get something different from it. Thats pretty much an irrefutable fact, as amply demonstrated by the 2000 or so Christian denominations on the face of the planet, and within each of them zillions of followers who have their own specific take on things.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 30, 2000.

Abigail, I have to say, I totally disagree with you. God does not choose some of us to go to heaven and some of us to go to hell! "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that WHOEVER shall believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life." WE choose for ourselves. God gives US ALL a choice. At some point in our lives, the Holy Spirit comes to ALL of us and invites us to accept the Lord.... "And and angel said to them, 'Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy which shall be for ALL the people for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord." Luke 2:10-11..."and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2 I am very interested in knowing where you find verses to support you claim that God only chooses some of us. I have to say, if that were true, then I wouldn't want to serve a God like that either. How can we expect to convince people to serve a God who doesn't love us all equally? I have to believe in a God who gives us all an equal chance.

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1

-- Linda (botkinhomeschool@yahoo.com), June 30, 2000.

Abigail: You're right in the point you make. I was unclear here. I was trying to say in a broad and general way that without faith, no matter what we do, it is no good anyway, because without faith, we can't be alive in Christ. If we're not alive in Christ, we're dead.

John: you asked me what does the Bible say about the missing years? While the Bible doesn't directly address the missing years, Jesus was known as a carpenter (Mark 6:3) and a carpenter's son (Matthew 13:55). It was customary among the Jews for fathers to teach their sons a trade. So it is a likely assumption he spent his "missing years" with Joseph learning the trade of carpentry. That carpentry played a role in His life is clear because some of His parables and teachings drew upon that experience. For example, He told of building a house on rock as opposed to sand (Matthew 7:24-27).

Luke 4:16 is also a key text to refute the idea that Jesus traveled to the east to study. At the beginning of His ministry, Jesus "came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath and stood up to read." Jesus was brought up in Nazareth, and His custom was to visit the synagogue. If it was his custom, that means he had been doing it for some time. It was not something new to him that he only started doing when He tarted his ministry.

It is also noteworthy that Jesus read from the Old Testament Scriptures at the synagogue. The Old Testament, for which Jesus often displayed reverence (see Matthew 5:18), warns about staying away from false gods and other religious systems (Exodus 20:2-3; 34:14; Deuteronomy 6:14; 13:10; 2 Kings 17:35). The Old Testament also clearly distinguishes the creation from the Creator, unlike Eastern pantheism, and teaches the need for redemption, not enlightenment.

"You state that Jesus and the disciples only quoted the Old Testament For the same reason I don't quote the Gita, sutras, tantras etc. to you."

If that's true John, then how do you justify the Great Commission where the disciples are commanded to go out and spread the Gospel? They weren't given a command to spread anything else. They weren't commanded to only preach to the Jews either, which means that there were no cultural barriers to the Gospel that were a concern to Jesus.

-- Eric in TN (ems@nac.net), June 30, 2000.

John, let me address you house analogy. You got 4 people looking at 4 different sides of the house each with their own view. Do they want to enter the house? They will all need to go through the front door to get to the throne room. Are you trying to get to heaven by the back door or are you trying to come through a window like a thief? The Bible not only gives us a picture of the house but the entire floor plan and blueprint, too.

Do you think God has all his windows and doors wide open all the time? If you and I were to open our houses like that, we would be overrun with rats, mice, snakes, flies and all manner of filth. Is that how you run your house? I can most assuredly state that God does not allow filth in His house.

How do I know that my interpretation of the Bible is truth? Because I study diligently and submissively under God, pastors and elders. I do not follow or ride doctrinal hobby horses. Are there things I am unsure of? Yes, but I know that when I reach that maturity of understanding, that portion of truth will be revealed to me. I am in no way unsure of my salvation, responsibilities or the blessings bestowed upon me.

You see, John, you are not offering us anything new or enlightening. Twenty years ago, I was arguing and defending your exact position. Then I got smacked hard with the reality of who I was really following and worshipping. I was following the Deceiver and worshipping "self." I revelled in my superior intellect over those whose who were too "narrow minded to grasp the enlightenment." Much like yourself.

We will be praying for you, John that you will know the truth about your god and be saved before it is too late.

PRAISE THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB!

-- Laura (gsend@hotmail.com), June 30, 2000.

I feel like the Maytag repairman. How come nobody answers my questions?!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), June 30, 2000.

I have a question, seriously. What if you all were born, say, 300 years ago. Before the invention of tv or radio and you did not have the means to hear about Jesus. Would you go to hell?

-- Annie (mistletoe@earthlink.net), June 30, 2000.

Hi John, I noticed in your original post that you said, "I haven't studied the bible alot, but some." - That would certainly explain your confusion. The old testiment is just as important as the new testiment. The bible interprets itself. The old testiment prophesies were fulfilled in the new testiment. Some new testiment prophesies have also been fulfilled.

The next event on the prophetic calender to be fulfilled is the "rapture" of the church. "For the Lord himself will come down from Heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." 1 Thessalonians 4:8.

According to scripture, the fall of man began in the Garden of Eden when Satan tempted Eve and she and Adam ate the fruit that God commanded them not to. Genesis 3.

Romans 3:23 - "All haved sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 6:23 - "The wages of sin is death." Romans 5:8 - "God demonstrated His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Ephesians 2:8,9 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one should boast."

It is trusting Jesus Christ that saves you. Tell Him how you feel about this. Ask him to forgive you of your sins and to become part of your life before it's too late.

John 5:24 - "He who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death to life."

If you want to understand the bible, you must read it. Ask God to reveal to you the things you don't understand. He knows your heart and He is faithfull.

I pray that God will touch your heart with the truth.

-- Kathy (jubilant@ncweb.com), June 30, 2000.

All right Sheepish, I'll answer your question!

I knew about the Gospels being "copied" 3 years ago. Did or does the potentiality of other "discoveries shake my faith? Not even a little bit!

As far as more "evidence" or possible other sources coming to light, that doesn't bother me either.

It is just so strange to read all of John's comments because like the post just a tic earlier, I argued the exact same things almost verbatim years ago. I've read alot of Joseph Campbell, The Aqaurarian Gospel, some Gnostic books, lots of ancient "pagan" mythology, and the like so I know of which you speak, and understand you position. I believe you are extremely sincere and yet, sincerely wrong. I in no way mean that as a bash, PLEASE do not take it that way.

John, I know you won't understand this because it just can't be "logically" explained, but since I accepted Christ and began to submit to His will, I have this surety inside of me that is, for lack of a better phrase, what I refer to as the "I Know".......it's unflappable and no amount of arguing points of man's logic can change it. It is a comforter, and helps me to "accept the things I cannot change" as it were.

I didn't come to faith through logic, I don't think anyone can argue you into it, or out of it. It is exactly a leap of faith, and an acceptance that the world's way isn't the right way.

John, I cannot convince you of the truth. No one here can. God can and I honestly believe that He is trying to. You are right to search for truth. Just be very careful that you don't buy a bootlegged truth.

I will continue to pray for you, and it won't hurt you one bit! May God Bless all of you.

Since I don't mind that priests and pastors have known about this and not the rest of us (except of course for the power issue of having kept us in the dark!)...how would you feel if new, authenticated, archival evidence revealed that some of what we think we know about the New Testament has alternative sources or meanings? Or new information? Does that potentially shake your faith?

I know there's more out there that we don't know, and yes, I have faith, so the words don't shake me up that much, but sheesh! Doesn't it just awaken those curious bones in your body to think that there's so much more out there? That stuff could challenge, or better yet, support Jesus' history??

-- Doreen (livinginskin@yahoo.com), June 30, 2000.

Sorry I messed up and forgot to delete Sheepish's questions! Forgive me?

-- Doreen (livinginskin@yahoo.com), June 30, 2000.

Hi Annie,

You may want to read Romans chapters 1 and 4.

Romans 1:20 -" For since the creation of the world God's invisable qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse".

Romans 4:3 -" Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Now Abraham, who we read about in Genesis, who lived before the time of Moses which was around (1446 BC) did not know of Jesus at that time, but he was justified by faith, according to the scriptures. ( I hope someone else has more to add to this because it is one of those questions that is hard to answer.)

-- Kathy (jubilant@ncweb.com), June 30, 2000.

Thank you Kathy for responding! I have always believed in Jesus, but then again I feel I am also priveledged to be living in these times of easy communication. It has always bothered me that the people of this day and age that have the easy mean of tv and radio, can judge, the souls that were not so fortunate. What is going to happen to those people? I can't hardly believe that God would condem them, they didn't have a chance. Do you think when Jesus said we must believe in him, he meant for what he stood for, as in God?

-- Annie (mistletoe@earthlink.net), June 30, 2000.

Doreen: I understand your statement about the surity and unflappable calm. I have it too. It kinda reminds me of the question I asked jim early on in this thread. If I have god in my life, have the peace beyond words etc, believing as I do, and you or Jim or anyone else here, believing as you do, has it also, then whats up? In an earlier religious thread, it think it was Cindy who said something like "our peace is deeper" Maybe it is and maybe its not. I am certain tho there's nobody here qualified to make that assesment and it would be a rediculous discussion to get into. Is it possible that what we believe is less important than what we are? that what we believe is less important to God than what we are?

As to the analogy, note, in the analogy there was no mention of entering the house through any means. The analogy was only there for the sake of illustration pertaining to perspective. A few posts later someone commented about entering the house and now a rebuttal comment about entering the house. Since I authored the analogy to begin with I reserve the right to restrict its use to its intended purpose---to illustrate a point about perspective and thats all.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 30, 2000.

Linda- I'm sorry that we disagree. The passages that you quoted are often used against the argument of limited atonement. The word 'world' that John uses in that passage is now generally excepted to mean those chosen by God. This is shown by the study of the word in its original language and that the rest of Scripture teaches otherwise. The second quote you gave speaks that the good news is for all nations. That is true!! The gospel is free! That is why we are told to spread the gospel, because is is for ALL TO HEAR. My question to you is, do you believe that every person ever born will be in heaven? Or do you believe that whoever chooses to be in heaven will be there? I suspect the latter. If you believe that then you must believe that Jesus died for EVERYONE, which is not true. In Isaiah it is written that He will die for the sins of MANY. In Isaiah 43:20b, "To give drinnk to My people, My chosen. This people I have formed for Myself; They shall declare My praise." I quoted the following passage in an earlier post, but I will quote part of it again, John 6:65, "And He said, 'Therfore I have said to you that no one can come unto Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.'" The fact is we are sinners, who would not come to Him by our own choice, unless He first brought us to Himself. We were slaves in sin and like a slave could not free himself, but God freed us from the bondage of sin. Praise the Lord that He chose us! Annie, someone who has not heard the gospel will perish. If God had predestined him/her to be saved He would have sent the means by which the gospel would have been introduced to them. I have a suggestion for everyone. I think that John 10 would be good for some of you to read. It would be easier than me typing it all out. It speaks of the Good Shepherd and His sheep. So long!

-- Abigail F. (treeoflife@sws.nb.ca), July 01, 2000.

Doreen! Thank you for replying!

Is your paragraph (I copied here below):

"It is just so strange to read all of John's comments because like the post just a tic earlier, I argued the exact same things almost verbatim years ago. I've read alot of Joseph Campbell, The Aqaurarian Gospel, some Gnostic books, lots of ancient "pagan" mythology, and the like so I know of which you speak, and understand you position. I believe you are extremely sincere and yet, sincerely wrong. I in no way mean that as a bash, PLEASE do not take it that way. "

directed to me or John? I am a little sleepy so forgive me! I just couldn't tell.....I am trying to figure out who is sincerely wrong. And I wouldn't take it as bashing, nor would John I would bet.

Thanks!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), July 01, 2000.

Ah, John, now we are getting down into the truth of this whole exercise.

John does not want to go into the house, nor does he want enyone else going into the house...

John, your religion is a religion of ideas and concepts, an intellectual worship of self. You do not wish to go into the house because you do not want to risk a personal relationship with God. You do not want anyone else going into the house and having that personal relationship with God because then YOU feel left out.

This is rooted in fear, John, a fear of intimacy.

I would venture to say you have a deep hidden secret, something your mother probably shamed you about, that you don't want anyone, not even God to know about. Guess what? God already sees it. He knows all about it. Your heart is no secret to Him! He is waiting for you to give that secret shame to Him and accept the healing that He is offering to you so that you may enter the personal relationship with HIM.

Go into the house, John, through the front door and sit at the feet of our Creator. Allow Him to heal you, cleanse you, and teach you His way. Let Him take away your fear.

-- Laura (gsend@hotmail.com), July 01, 2000.

You make alot of assumptions Laura that you're not qualified to make. You say my "religion" is a religion of ideas. Maybe it is but its also borne of experience with God. Bottom line---my relationship with God is mine as yours is with yours. It is a personal experience.

You're quick to dispute but slow to answer many of the questions I've asked.

One question I've asked before. If you as a born again christian have God in your life, experience the peace etc and I do as well, believing as I do, whats up? This exclusive God you revere has deemed to give me many gifts of the spirit and of the world, including the peace that goes beyond words, how can that be?

You say to test the spirits. Perhaps you should do the same. From where I stand, your minds have been poisoned by a petty, narrow, diety straight out of the old testament. Search your hearts! When Jesus comes knocking on your door try not to crucify him. Its not good karma!

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), July 01, 2000.

John, last statement first, when Jesus returns it will be as Himself, and EVERYONE will know it is him and millions will know that He is God and they will still reject him and try to fight. No one will ever crucify Him again other than metaphorically, through accepting the gift of salvation and hard headedly continuing to sin. Once for All.

Regarding your question, and the peace and knowing that you and I both claim......I can only speak from my experience, I always believed in God (except for about 6mos as a freshman in college where I claimed agnosticism).....but I didn't believe in Jesus as the ONLY way. I had a surety of knowing there was a "Creative Force" in the Universe, but it wasn't as personal nor was the stand something I would die for before I would renounce it. That's MY answer to your question, I am not certain that it is the same for other Christians, but I suspect that it is similar.

Still praying.

-- Doreen (livinginskin@yahoo.com), July 01, 2000.

I thought I'd stop by just in case some of you thought Little bit Had left the building and say unfortunately for all of you I am just on vacation. I will be back bright and shiny on wednesday morning, with probably more to say than anyone wants to hear. I am going to go listen to my wonderful father preach tomorrow, and worship the Lord. I wish all of you a wonderful Lord's day and fourth of July. God bless you all. Hopefully on wednesday the problem I am having with downloading this page will have resolved itself. Otherwise you may never hear from me again. Seems like it, but I am really just kidding. Little Bit Farm

-- Little Bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), July 02, 2000.

Cindy, I don't think you get to pick your sons-in-law. You either accept them or have to disown your daughters which I'm sure most people wouldn't do. The real question is, do they attend your church with you. And is the church a multi-racial one? Also, I don't think you live in the south which was how the question was phrased. So far, I haven't seen anyone who goes to a multi-racial church who lives in the south. Proves my point.

Laura, I think you need a little shot of humility. Your comments to John about his personal upbringing were so far out of line it certainly showed where your Christianity is.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), July 02, 2000.

This is starting to sound more like Freud, than the Bible. Sheesh. Now were picking things out of thin air and analizing?

-- Annie (mistletoe@earthlink.net), July 02, 2000.

The above response was intended for Laura. I agree with Coleen.

-- Annie (mistletoe@earthlink.net), July 02, 2000.

Maybe we all need a little shot of humility, (yes including myself). Sometimes I get frusterated because I can't make people understand what I'm trying to say. Sorry, if I've been a bit of a bother, especially in regards to limited atonement. I just can't see how we, who are totally depraved, can choose whether we want to accept a mighty omnitpotent God or not! Saterday I noticed this in 1Peter 1:1-2, "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ to the stranger scattered throughour Pntus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." The part I want you to notice is the 'Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctification of the Spirit.' Anyway, John, you again accused God's elect of hating God. God requires the narrow way Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in therat: Becasue strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. " This passage is speaking to believers and it warns them to stay on the staight path. The only rule by which we shall follow God, is the Bible, which is a very narrow path. Our pastor said something yesterday that I found very encouraging. Jesus Christ is Truth and He is the Word. The Word is Truth. If we deny the Word of God in any way, then we deny God Himself. He also said something else which prompts me to be very careful. He said that if we are interpreting the Scriptures in a false way and truly believe in that false interpretation, we are still sinning and living in disobedience. Ignorance is no excuse. John, if you still believe that there are other ways, except Jesus Christ, unto salvation I would like you to tell me where in the Bible it states that. You mentioned that you found reading the "bibles" of other religions helped you gain deaper insight, (into what?). In 2Peter, Peter gives a final reminder to His book of reminders. And that is to becareful of false prophets. The only way we can avoid falling into their traps is to fill our minds with the Truth and become well grounded in it. Where does one start? At the Bible. You MUST study the Bible and read it. "Write it on your doorposts" I THINK, (correct me if I'm wrong), you are trying to apply the principles of other religions to Christianity. God wants nothing to do with other religions. They are a stench to Him. He accepts only pure worship. My time's up, but if you all are going to continue with this discussion I'll be back.

-- Abigail F. (treeoflife@sws.nb.ca), July 03, 2000.

All I can say Abigail is that I believe you are mistaken about many things in what you've said. There's no need to go into them because it won't change anything. This thread is about to expire so this'll be my last post on it. Thanks ya'll for a stimulating discussion/debate/argument.

See ya'll on the mountaintop----the same one!

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), July 03, 2000.

Colleen, You're right, I didn't pick my sons-in-law, and I don't live in the South. but I'm still not prejudiced against black peopleI grew up in a very prejudice house, but I could never understand why, so I didn't accept it. There are many in Indiana that are. I do wish my sons-in-law would go to church, they don't. They live in Indy, I don't. I was saved in a church that's about 45% black. You know what I noticed there? There really wasn't any difference, people were just people. It was the friendliest big city church I was ever in. Have you ever asked people why they're prejudiced? I bet most of them don't know or are just that way out of habit or family habits. It's a sad thing.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), July 03, 2000.

John, God has laid in upon my heart, to tell you that He loves you very much. And that if you will stop kicking against the thorns, He would very much like to show you His love and peace. He wants you to sit down at the foot of the cross and let the Holy Spirit work in your heart and mind, to prepare for knowledge and peace beyond your wildest expectations. God loves you John, please read John 14:27

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), July 03, 2000.

Cindy, It is so true that racism is a learned behaviour. Innocent children do not hate a child of another race. I wish we all had remembered that when we got to be adults. I was raised in New Hampshire and had very little exposure to blacks but my parents were both from the south. I was taught by my mother to not be racist and one day when I was an adult I heard my mother tell my brother that his house was so dirty it was no better than a nigger's. I was so shocked since my mother was the consumate Southern Belle and I had never heard her say anything like that. So, I said in shocked disbelief, "Mom, what are you saying, using that word?" She then told me that being raised in the south she had been raised to not like blacks but as an adult she realized it was wrong and swore that she would see that her children were raised without racial prejudice. She succeeded so well that none of us ever realized that she had a strong prejudice against blacks. I thought it was such a tribute to her that she had succeeded in instilling in us something that she couldn't overcome for herself. I just wish we all could learn to love everyone no matter their race, religion, sex or whatever.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), July 03, 2000.

AMEN...now can we give this thread the Last Rites? John has already bid us all adieu, and he is the author.

I would suggest if someone wants to carry on, that they start a new thread. Actually, I wouldn't really suggest it! Maybe not for a while!

Peace to you all, and aren't you glad we live in a nation where we can worship our consciences???

Happy Fourth of July!!!!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), July 03, 2000.