"Get a life."

Popular Polly phrase around TB2000 before rollover but now more popular here among Doomers.

Aint life grand?

Which camp do you think learned MORE from this y2k experience?

How would your answer reflect on the tenor of this forum?

-- Carlos (riffraff1@cybertime.net), June 25, 2000

Answers

I think we drop people to easily into polarized categories. I never thought of myself as a "doomer" but an alarmed "middle of the roader." Unfortunatley, I allowed myself to be persuaded more by doomers than reasonable preppers or pollies. Nevertheless, I did not spend money on anything I cannot now use. I actually benefited financially from my preps by getting out of debt and saving money as well as developing a garden and pantry. ALl of my preps were things I could "live" with.

My guess is that the vast majority of people on this forum and the previous TB forum, were people who were reasonably concerned and willing to do some mild preparation as we do in South Florida for huricane season. The exteme "doomers" and "pollies" that engaged in name calling, spaming and personal attacks were probably just a vocal minority.

Those that tried to reason and express balanced positions were shouted down by extremist on both sides. In my view, the saddest thing happening in our society is the trend towards polarization on every issue (abortion, gun control, etc), rather than seeking consensus.

-- JoseMiami (caris@prodigy.net), June 25, 2000.

Best said Jose.

-- Carlos (riffraff1@cybertime.net), June 25, 2000.

Why is "Extremism" in opposition to EVIL a vice?? Why is "moderation in the pursuit of "civility" a virtue? You do not tolerate garbage on your front yard much less your home? Why let it into your brain? Y2k FEAR MONGERING SPREAD GARBAGE.

The whole tactic of the Y2k FUD pushers was to move the dialog to THEIR TERMS, THEIR ARGUMENTS AND THEIR "DEFINITIONS". When Companies were ready or compliant it wasn't good enough for the Hair Stylist in Kansas. She wanted IV&V. Same with "contingency plans" because without them, A & L would not approve. And where did it all come from? The daily doses of Wrong Again Gary's daily posts redistributed by the Zombies like a@a.a (I hope he gets his snail mail with that address). A@a.a. wasn't happy if a day went by that he could not re- distribute a Gary or a Milne. And that equates to a DRUM BEAT hitting your brain as in "brain washing" and re-inforcement. DE NILE now is a creek not a river but the point is the same. A FEW.......made a lot of normal people SICK.

I'm as Far Right as Attila the Hun, Coors and William Buckley/Reagan and Eye of Newt. Yet I view North and Yourdon as FRINGERS not to be tolerated. One left and one past the radical right.

No WAY, Jose' and any others. The Y2k Fear was deliberately driven and motivated by gain whether financially or for agenda. It was "an Issue to be EXPLOITED" to gain memberships, make sales and win new friends while *NEUTRALIZING" the opposition. That was why the Doom Side was so adamant about their being "right" (Cap Right is reserved for good guys like Goldwater, Reagan and Buckley). It should have been clear when Fringe Leftists took up the cause with Gary (look on any Left site and see that he was always a leading "link" for information").

It was that "moderation" and "civility" that enabled a KNOWN FEAR PUSHER named Gary North to propagate and spread, maintain and build the ENTIRE structure of Y2k **FEAR** vs. the Technical business problem that was addressed by de Jager, Giga, Gartner and the rest off the Pros.

GARY NORTH should have been exposed in 1997 and all those supporting his ludicrous points of view (including Yourdon, Hyatt and the rest) should have been BLASTED OUT OF ANY DISCUSSIONS. Instead, they were able to ..........DEMAND.....they be accorded the same rights of the Moderates and Centrists and all Non-EXTREMISTS.

UNDERSTAND THAT? If you do not I have about 700 megs of data to support that. And I am not alone. The history of the "Manipulation" of the public by North and the rest has not been written. Knowing that, North, a Historian, exited early as he always does after being "Wrong Again Gary".

The Doomzies invented the term "pollies" for ALL who opposed them. In reality, 99++% of the population oppose extremists over issues. It was more proper to refer to the De-Bunkers as ANTI-DOOMERS. NOT."pollies".

-- cpr (buytexas@swbell.net), June 25, 2000.

Which camp do you think learned MORE from this y2k experience?

If my memory serves me correctly, us Pollys were the teachers and the Doomers were the students, albeit with a serious learning disability. The question should be;

Did the Doomer camp learn ANYTHING from the Y2K experience?

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 25, 2000.

Did they learn anything? Some did like Forest Covington, but most of the real diehards were "pre-conditioned" to go along with Y2k and will join the next "issue" asap when one comes that will appeal to them. It is doubtful another one of Y2k global scope (if not impact) will surface soon. Oil, Nuke Power, The Russkies, China, and Comtrails are....NOT GOING TO CUT IT. Even Gary will have trouble making another Fear Souffle.

As proof that some never learn, the first Doomzies on Gary's House of Horror's Forum were the LAST TO STAY. You could almost see the "crisis end" on GN's own boards as the "doubters" began to exit. That happened on the Christian Right Lists I was one. PEOPLE MADE UP THEIR OWN MINDS.

In that respect, TB I was an exception and we know that it was the "manipulation" of a few and EY himself who are to blame for that.

Doubt it? I can name a survivalist list set up for Y2k that died with the survivalists themselves began to call Y2k a hoax as far as the need to prepare was concerned. ONLY the "vested interests" kept the Wheel of FUD spinning.

The people that were unduly influenced by the Doomzies are the ones who learned. I seriously doubt that a Forrest Covington will let himself be taken in again by an "R.C."

Note that it was not "R.C." that made FC leave TB I, it was the reaction of the Nutso zombies to his post that "we should all be more careful who we listen to in the future."

There were many more. While I seriously doubt Covington would ever agree with me over much, his "seeing the light" and exiting gave me a great deal of satisfaction.

All the Morons here who think that I or Andy Ray or any De-bunker care what people think or how they think need to remember something. Unlike the Doomzies, none of use demand you think and agree with us.

Of course, in my case, I simply assume that those who do not agree with me are lesser humans for it and it is truly their loss. (GGGG).

Contrast that to the DEMANDS to "delete, delete" on PigPen I and the censorship in TB II.

-- cpr (buytexas@swbell.net), June 25, 2000.

This is great. Missing the point maybe (sound familar?), but great. Last hurrah CEEP? Poole post said you're nearing the END. Is there an END? Will life go on? Do better.

-- Carlos (riffraff1@cybertime.net), June 25, 2000.

Do better?

HOW WOULD **YOU** , Carlos, EVER, EVER, EVER KNOW??

-- cpr (buytexas@swbell.net), June 25, 2000.

Nonetheless, a rhetorician could admire North. He has a remarkable knack for asking simple questions with simple answers ONLY if you swallowed the false assumptions on which the questions rested. He was skillfully aware that anyone who attempted to rearrange the question to remove the false assumptions *looked* like they were dodging the "real issue". He also knew most of his readers wouldn't even notice the assumptions.

He who gets to name the game wins, no matter what the final score. North knows this. He's good at it.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), June 25, 2000.

cpr,

Lunch? Not a joke. Asked a year ago or so and U said U wouldn't have lunch "with the likes of you", meaning me.

Never an exclusionist myself.

Will E before next DFW trip.

-- Carlos (riffraff1@cybertime.net), June 25, 2000.

I learned a lot about being well prepared for any number of situations where we may not be able to depend on the current infrastructure. From now on I will always be prepared to be self-reliant for 3 to 6 months, which is something I never really did before the experience of Y2K. I am convinced that the doomer approach is much wiser than being a foolish idiot pollyanna, and I am very thankful to all the "doomers" who shared their ideas.

-- Hawk (flyin@hi.again), June 25, 2000.

Ra and cpr--

Don't you understand that not everyone who was concerned about y2k was or is a "doomer"? Speaking for myself, I was spooked by the hyperbole of the alarmists. Which of them were cynically spreading FUD for their own reasons and which were honestly mistaken is still not clear to me and neither is it of interest to me. I didn't have the time or feck to dig into this as some debunkers did. I commend you on your energy and persistance.

I liken the whole experience to that of taking the advice of a bad stock market guru. I followed the advice and I should not have done so. I realize he may have pumped and dumped me or maybe he was just plain wrong. In any case, I take responsibility for what I did. I seek no retribution and I don't even expect him to take responsibility for what he said.

Jose, I agree with you except that I can't say that all my preps will get used. I don't want to eat all the canned food; I don't expect to drink the bottled water and what is to be done with several cases of canned heat?

Did I learn anything? Well, I am more suspect of so-called info on the Internet. And I was reminded of how vulnerable our complex, inerconnected society is. I don't lose sleep over it but I think Infomagic's "devolution" scenario is very possible given the right trigger. Thankfully y2k was not that trigger. But very few folks are capable of independant sustenance anymore.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), June 25, 2000.

OK, I'll go for it. And this is genuine.

I learned more in the past four years of my life than in any previous time (and that includes all schooling).

I learned about myself, I learned about others. I learned things I never needed or wanted to know (i.e., how incredibly cruel and selfish so many people can be). I learned that paranoia among certain groups of people is real (I honestly never knew this). I learned some people can be terribly hypocritical when attempting to justify their position on anything. I learned how to do my job better, and I learned how others can do theirs better. I learned how to play "the business game" and I learned I was better at it than most; I learned I didn't like playing games, probably because I am so good at it.

I learned that no matter how nice you are, someone is always going to be an asshole towards you. I learned that no matter how rational and logical you are, someone is always going to twist and turn your words against you. I learned I can't be bothered with such types, though it does get to me at times.

I learned that, even if I have almost nothing visibly or obviously in common with people, I can still be friends with them. And that was one of the most important lessons I learned. Perhaps it's "tolerance" that I learned; I don't really care what it is, I'm just glad it IS.

I grew personally, professionally and (ultimately) spiritually.

And I was a so-called "polly" since maybe 1997. I tried to "call" Gary North on his bullshit a number of times on de Jager's mail list in "the early days"; I saw what he was doing; how could people NOT see what he was doing? Pretty much all of my postings were returned or simply not posted (it was hard to hide my temper sometimes). Instead, I would post things (way toned down) and have The Garee Himself email me *personally* because he became too much of a weasel to post in public. I got flamed for my attempts at logic and rational discussion. I tried to reason with the unreasonable. I finally learned I can't be bothered with these people, though it still gets to me at times.

Bottom line is that anyone who claims they didn't learn anything is lying. Period. It was an experience that, for better or for worse, TAUGHT people things, whether it be about themselves, about others, or just about life in general. And while I wouldn't really ever want to repeat it, I wouldn't have "missed it for the world".

Good question, Carlos. Glad you asked.

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), June 25, 2000.

Hawk:

Y2k led me to make a lot of choices different than I'd have made otherwise. None of these were *bad* choices, they just weren't my *first* choices. And I think if I had it to do over again, even knowing nothing would happen, I wouldn't change some of those choices anyway -- I'm very happy with them. And some of what I did was plain dumb, purely wasted time and money.

But these are dangerous waters. Nobody likes to admit error, so no matter what we did, we are very strongly motivated to convince ourselves we're better off. But by doing so, ipso facto we are admitting that without y2k, we'd have made (and were always making) worse choices. I think it's also wise to question your own judgment, when you KNOW you let yourself get "tricked" into inappropriate decisions. Saying, later on, that your errors were actually wise moves smacks powerfully of sour grapes.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), June 25, 2000.

Best answer Patricia.

Not surprised.

-- Carlos (riffraff1@cybertime.net), June 25, 2000.

Jose, you wrote: "Those that tried to reason and express balanced positions were shouted down by extremist on both sides. In my view, the saddest thing happening in our society is the trend towards polarization on every issue (abortion, gun control, etc), rather than seeking consensus."

This is correct, but as you allude to, it's not exclusive to Y2K. One of the most important things we all need to remember about Y2K was that it was, in many ways, a "test" of the Internet as an information medium; the first such "test". IMHO, it failed miserably.

That doesn't mean that one should not look to the Internet as a most valuable information tool; it simply means that (and for this we have Y2K to thank) when one does use the Internet as an information tool, one needs to take great care in what one does with that information and take greater care in how one interprets that information.

I posted, on several occasions, a couple of "web checklists" that are simply invaluable when analyzing Internet information. I don't have the links handy, but I'm sure if you plug "web checklist" into a search engine, you'll find some.

The only thing I regret at times is that those checklists were seemingly not read by the people to whom they were directed.....those "doomers" who fell the hardest for the Y2K fear. Had these people looked past my "polly" label and my "associations" with certain "pollies", and the boards on which I posted, they would have been able to effectively evaluate, say, a Mike Adams and Y2KNewswire for what it really was.....a MARKETING TOOL. And had those checklists been used, Ed Yourdon probably wouldn't have had the "15 minutes of fame" that he had. Gary North certainly wouldn't have had the following he had; and those "secret Navy papers" probably never would have made it past Jim Lord's fax machine.

It is my hope that, like you and Lars and myself and others, people accept that they really did learn something from Y2K. And frankly, it wasn't "preparations".

Those "extremists" on both sides WERE the minority. But they were a VOCAL minority, which made all the difference. And one did not have to be "loud" to be part of that vocal minority, either. It had alot (if not everything) to do with the Y2K polarization. Sadly, I doubt that will die with Y2K.

Hey, it's another lesson learned for all :-)

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), June 25, 2000.

Don't overdo it darlin.

Refer to the original questions.

Specially, "the tenor" of this forum.

-- Carlos (riffraff1@cybertime.net), June 25, 2000.

Flint,

No one "tricked" me into anything, I saw an awful lot of information from hundreds of different sources that convinced me that there was reason enough for concern to be prepared. The world spent in the neighborhood of $1 Trillion to repair the problem, more than any single event in history, and I felt there was a good chance that there could be enough human error introduced to cause a disaster. The simple fact of the matter is that everyone was so scared that they did an exceptional job, and they got very lucky. I have no problems admitting errors, but I don't see errors with anything that I did to prepare. Some people who went overboard certainly did some stupid things, but I regret nothing that I did. Some of you seem to get your jollies going around saying how stupid everyone was, but that won't change my belief that, given the circumstances, I did exactly what was most appropriate for me, and will do it again in a similar situation.

-- Hawk (flyin@hi.again), June 25, 2000.

The "winner" of a Graffiti war in a NYC subway is the "artist" with the biggest paint brush.

On the net, Wasted Bandwidth spouting Garbage does the trick. J. Olin Grabbe proved that when he stated on TV he would put anything on his web site he felt like putting true on not. When asked whether some of it was a lie, he responded "yes". He refused to take responsibility for that. We should have learned from that Expose' back in 1997. Grabbe was a beginner vs. Gary North, Farah, Missler, Craig Smith and the Young Fear Meister: Mike Adams (Goodin) the PR trained "best Y2k News service in the world"((only $169/year)). $400,000 taken in for his "information" in less than 6 months. Home run because he had "little or no cost" other that a periodic Press Release for $500 a pop announcing some other PR stunt.

To this day there are some of us who still do not believe the FUD got so out of hand. Patricia and I are two of those and I can name 100 more. I can name the head of a Law Firm department who knew all about the attacks on the Banks and what the banks were doing to counteract it because he alone had 50 banks as clients. He flat out told me "No body would ever believe that sort of thing. Its from the Mc Carthy days (about hard money and the "conspiracy" of the bankers).

The trick was to "Hit and Run". HIT and not let yourself be questioned. North gave no interviews. Lord Jim answered few questions. Roleigh Martin never re-circulated 1/2 the email sent him by people informing him he was wrong. Yourdon was the Master after he was exposed on a few list serves. He "dropped in" and then answered what he felt like answering. HYATT **BANNED PEOPLE** before Yourdon who used the "delete,delete" and Chanting Meme attack methods. All of it was "Choreographed" for the Fans.

"Jimmy Bagga Donuts" had it right all along. It was all about moving merchandise and books. PERIOD. EY had his book **and** his MLM scheme. All the rest were "selling something". But to dare "critique them" was wrong for "the blood of the Un Prepared" would be on the hands of those who dared criticize.

Temporary hysteria or a "Warning" for the future? BOTH. IMNSHO.

Every one who has the slightest experience in Politics or simply follows Political Science knows about Fringe and Radical groups. Prior to 1995, they were mostly isolatable and separated by Fax and phone costs. The Net ended that. It also enabled a Roleigh Martin to email every State legislator in Mn. and "demand" something be done about Y2k. He bragged about that while not mentioning they laughed because "they all knew Roleigh".

It was no accident that North kept his ID off his web site until he was constantly exposed. I am very proud of that and proud that Gary knows that I helped do it. I was not alone. Many on the Y2k lists especially on de Jager's got to see the "other side of Brer Garee" and his long history.

Even then back in winter 1997 and 1998 we all "assumed" North would be contained. The NET proved us wrong. North was the TYPHOID MARY of Y2k FUD and anyone who doubts that need only count the links to his web site and the many citations of his "work" found in other "white papers". (Until the legitimate writers were informed of Duct Tape's more "interesting" statements.)

What Patricia leaves out is the many emails between ourselves and others containing the phrase "WHO would ever believe such a thing?".

We all kept emailing and posting that North would be debunked, no one would believe him and his friends etc. and it was "impossible" for reasonable people to listen to such CRAP.

We left out one thing in the equation and because of that we waited too long to effectively squelch the Yo-Yos from the start. Instead of blasting off on North, many decided that it was better to let him go on rather than give "any" of them exposure. By Nov. and December of 1998 it was clear the Press was making hay with story after story about "The Preppers". I saved them all.

-- cpr (buytexas@swbell.net), June 25, 2000.

My bad :-) (I didn't realize this was a test [g].)

I'd say that *I* probably learned the most from this experience, but as to the specific question of "which camp", I would have no way of knowing outside of what I've seen posted on this forum in the past few months -- in which case it would appear to be more "doomers" who, at least openly, admit to learning alot. These are some of the people I hold in the highest regard.

As to "the tenor of this forum", I don't consider my "voice" reflective of anything except *me*. I'm sure there are some who agree with me from both "camps", just as I'm also sure there are those who don't from both "camps". To be honest, outside of a select few (many of whom are anonymous), I don't see the "camps" any longer. I see a group of people who just want to hang out and discuss the "issue of the day", even if that issue is the funniest bumper sticker you've ever seen, or whether capnfun's Tiki Bar is open for business, or whether al-d will ever figure out how to punctuate a paragraph.

And that works just fine by me. Point is, no matter what these folks discuss, I seem to learn something. And that's what keeps me here.

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), June 25, 2000.

Carlos:

I can't answer anything regarding "camps." I CAN tell ya what *I* learned, though. I learned that just because I agree with some folks on ONE subject doesn't mean I'll agree with those same folks on ALL subjects. I learned that there are gullible people in the world besides my mother. I learned that the majority of differences we have with others is NOT due to lack of information, but more due to "baggage" carried along from previous experiences.

I can't address your "tenor" question of this forum either. For the most, I enjoy this forum. If I didn't, I wouldn't post here. Some folks go apeshit when they read something they don't like. I always thought that's why we had a "back" arrow.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), June 25, 2000.

cpr,

I tried to phrase my questions careully but must have done badly.

Help please to stop the "wasted bandwith".

-- Carlos (riffraff1@cybertime.net), June 25, 2000.

Hawk:

If you're satisfied with what you did, nobody could ask for more. I'm satisfied with what I did as well. However, forgive me for finding mild amusement with some of what you write:

[The world spent in the neighborhood of $1 Trillion to repair the problem, more than any single event in history]

This is a repetition of a very early, very inflated *projection* of what a worst case might end up costing. MOST of that original figure was *legal settlements* after all the worldwide screwups that didn't happen. The most recent upper limit on TOTAL remediation expenses worldwide was on the order of $200 billion, and that included anything that might conceivably have been y2k related, from upgrades that would have been done anyway to general PR that included y2k reassurances.

I don't understand why you'd repeat a nearly 3 year old mistake as a "fact" by now. We KNOW better.

[I felt there was a good chance that there could be enough human error introduced to cause a disaster.]

This is what I meant by "tricked". A negative can't be proved, so nobody could ever rule out glitches. The "good chance of disaster" was more and more clearly imaginary. When MY imagination sees what isn't there, I've been tricked (if only by myself). Hey, you had plenty of tricksters directing your imagination, whether you admit this or not.

[The simple fact of the matter is that everyone was so scared that they did an exceptional job, and they got very lucky.]

This is sour grapes plain and simple. About 2% of IT budgets in the US were spent on remediation. That's not luck, that's business as usual. The problem was identified, corralled, addressed, and tested. Tune out a few very vocal screechers and look back at what was going on in IT departments, it was very ho hum. As one example, all efforts to generate interest in y2k on COBOL, IT, UNIX, and such newsgroups was met first with laughter and then with impatience. They knew better.

[I have no problems admitting errors]

Which is a good thing, because it's obvious you have no problem *making* them either.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), June 25, 2000.

CARLOS,

Trying to get a job with Diane or Big Jerk? Maybe EY has an opening for you or an extra "delete" button.

When you send me a check for $100,000 as a retainer for one year's consultant's fee that I can CASH....you can tell me what to do and how to do it. Until then, like Brian and Lube Job: FUCK OFF.

CPR

-- cpr (buytexas@swbell.net), June 25, 2000.

Cut me a break. Did the "pollys" present a sound argument? One thing that I liked about the old TB2K, was that it was a very active forum. 300,000+ messages. Hundreds of new posts per day, not considering the "answers". What was the best that the "pollys" could do? Debunky, with maybe, 25? Biffy, with 20? Add 'em all up, they didn't even come close.

Oh, the "pollys" were vocal. cpr, CET, the "power men", and guys like Flint and Hoff, they did make their point. But why were they outnumbered 10 to 1? Why was I able to find almost 1,000 man-years of "doomer" programmer experience on TB2K? And don't give me that crap about them being "censored". I go back too far for that...

Did Yourdon really suck that many people in? Did he have that big of an influence on the US Senate? Was North responsible for the $50 million command center? Did IBM have people reading TB2K, that lead to their warnings? LOL... ROTFLMAO... LOL...

Us "doomers" are now blamed for trying to warn people about a possible problem. Thank God, it didn't turn out that way. The fact is that Y2K was a serious problem, and I don't care what Andy Ray and co. have to say.

Like I said, thank God that my fellow programmers were able to pull it off. I spent my entire adult life in one corporate environment or another. Based on what I have seen in the past, I figured it was a hopeless cause...

<:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), June 25, 2000.

Sysman,

Don't know squat about computers but for your first three paragraphs, RIGHT ON.

CEEP, you're missing it. More important you're missing out on meeting me. When does all this crap get less important to you?

-- Carlos (riffraff1@cybertime.net), June 25, 2000.

SYSMAN,

YOU, continue to be the Biggest SUCKER still??? Now you were mislead by "the big guys"?? YOU, the guy who cashed a CD long before it was clear what would happen?

You couldn't "judge" a sound argument about Rice and Beans much less Y2k "Impacts". HOW COULD YOU? You cliche your way to 1/1/2000 like Big Jerk Puppy with "Its not Y2k yet Hah hah... you'll see. Better "prepare"". ..........YOU "JUDGE A SOUND ARGUMENT"????

HOW do you shave in the morning ? From Memory rather than looking in the mirror??

YOU ARE A ** NET PUNK** who wants attention and when someone calls your bluff your "cry to MOMMY" !!!! Like Big Puppy Jerk, you NEVER had the EDUCATION to JUDGE New from Classic Coke. He lacked the Computer Science degree (admitted online he was "classically trained" (aka: Liberal Arts) and YOU have no Sheepskin (that isn't wrapped in aluminum foil and circular in shape).

You can't be serious. YOU ... Mr."its not Y2k yet" Sysman.....couldn't tell if a "sound argument" was presented about anything outside your experience in I.T./Lans. WHO are you trying to CONTINUALLY...BULL SHIT after all this time??

YOU were as much of a Vector for FUD as Gary North. When TB I broke down, you tried to carry the BS to Yahoo and got your head handed to you. Then when TB I came back online, you CRIED like an 8 year old "MOMMY, the "pollies" were everywhere on that Yahoo Forum". (DON"T DENY IT. I HAVE THE WHOLE TRAIL).

GET THIS YOU **DIM WIT**.....: YOU PASS YOURSELF OFF AS A "TECH". That means something to the people who read your DRIVEL to this day. BUT, what you leave out is that YOUR FREAKING OPINIONS ARE BASED ON YOUR "EXPERIENCE" and not a FORMAL EDUCATION.

JUST LIKE COWLES, who never answered, YOU DON"T EVEN HAVE A COLLEGE EDUCATION....DO YOU??

PEOPLE IN I.T. with COMPUTER SCIENCE DEGREES AND MBAs DISMISSED Y2k FUD for what it was BULL SHIT and ***YOU*** bought the whole "schmear". NOW....you use the same Politicians and "upper management" you would call CLUELESS as YOUR ***EXCUSE**???

NOW, like all the others, "I WAS WRONG BUT I WAS MISLEAD........" and in your case you take the prudent instructions from IBM to 300,000 employees to unplug their desktops before a long weekend and the Sales Pitch from the RED CROSS, the Money **wasted** on the Y2k Command center as your "EXCUSE"??

IT WAS PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT FORCED THE BANKS TO WASTE $100 Million in PR work to avoid "PANIC" and forced the Fed to have funds over and above normal in case HUMANS...started bank runs BEFORE Y2k CDC.

YOU and PEOPLE LIKE YOU ............SPREAD THE BULL SHIT THEY WERE BRAIN WASHED WITH.

YOU were wrong **but** .........you were wrong because you saw all the "Big Guys doing it?"

**GOOD TRY** BAD LOGIC and MOSTLY BULL SHIT. TAKE IT BACK TO YOURDON, maybe he can fix the Logic (of course, he hasn't programmed in 20 year but maybe for YOU, "THE SYSMAN" he might).

NOTE........that does not make you a bad person. It does make you LESS THAN ADEQUATE TO PONTIFICATE ABOUT Y2k BUSINESS OR POLITICAL OR SOCIAL IMPACTS.

MEANWHILE....don't strain your arms patting yourself on the back that YOU "did the right thing"...YOU DID NOT.

YOU WERE ONE OF THE LEADERS OF THE FUD BRIGADE. **DEAL WITH IT WHEN YOU SHAVE EVERY MORNING FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE.

-- cpr (buytexas@swbell.net), June 25, 2000.

"Its not Y2k yet" SYSMAN uses the number of posts to TB as a "reason" there was any validity to the DAILY BRAIN WASHING ?? 1/2 to 3/4 were DRIVEL. "good post", "nice job, Linkmeister", "good point a@a.a", "Great work Diane, we all support you from the evil Trolls"

They couldn't "validate" a parking lot ticket!!!!

FACTs.

300,000 posts /2 yrs (2 x365) --> 410.95 posts or 411 posts/day.

As of this AM there were 803 "members" (email addresses) on TB II.

In reality, the forum seldom follows "Pareto's law" of 80/20. Maybe, 10% are active. SYSMAN posted HOW MANY TIMES ?? 3,000. (4 posts/day 2 years).

FACT, 411 posts at 4X would need ONLY 101 for the Daily Quota.

However, we know that the posters posted in waves depending on the thread. DIANE alone could post 30 times /day or others were good for more.

AT 10 (TEN) posts a day...........41 people could "fill the quota".

FORTY ONE........including 35-39 BRAIN WASHED ZOMBIES LIKE "THE "its not Y2k yet" SYSMAN.

-- cpr (buytexas@swbell.net), June 25, 2000.

Flint, you just like to do a lot of flat-out lying through your ass. If you want to lie and call it my error, so be it, but I still can't believe you think I'm dumb enough to believe you. I got my information from both sides, and I made decisions based on which parts I believed were realistic, not what someone else might have wanted me to believe. I am amused at you, and the way you manufacture "facts" (that's a laugh) just so that you can feel as though you've won your argument. You don't fool me for a second, you're just a poser.

(PS, you've been at the computer all weekend, when have you found time to go out and shoot your 2000 bullets into the target? :-)

-- Hawk (flyin@hi.again), June 25, 2000.

Hawk:

[I got my information from both sides, and I made decisions based on which parts I believed were realistic]

And I'm a liar because YOU believed the wrong parts? But you weren't fooled in any way? And meanwhile, you ignore every point I raised?

I read your sentence as a straight admission you got tricked. You fell for the hypesters' spin. All by yourself. Good for you! The irony of your *continued* unwillingness to address the issue is marvelous. Could it possibly occur to you that the reaction you just demonstrated is Exhibit A on HOW you got it so wrong? Well, you can lead a, uh, horse to the facts, but you can't make him think.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), June 25, 2000.

cpr,

Sheesh! Lots to reply to here. I guess I'll hit on your main points...

No, I don't have a "Sheepskin" and I don't even hold a CNE. But I was a CNE, several years before Novell invented the term. My first job was while I was still in high school. 1968 cpr, how long have you been involved in this business??? And it's not business for me, programming is a hobby that I just happen to get paid for. No cpr, I don't have a degree, but I did teach college level 360/370/390 assembly language. Do you know where Princeton is, cpr? Look it up.

"PEOPLE IN I.T. with COMPUTER SCIENCE DEGREES AND MBAs"... You are joking here, aren't you, cpr? I'm the guy that hires these junior jerk-offs....

CD? Sorry cpr, I didn't CASH a CD, I took out an 18 month $10,000 CD in Aug '99, that is due in Feb '01, and I told the forum when I did it. That's right cpr, I did have faith in the banking system, in the long run. Get your facts straight next time.

I don't shave, cpr. I do trim my beard about once a month. Yes, my long hair was shaved after my accident, but it's well on it's way back. I'll be a hippie again soon enough...

The "big guys" cpr? Yes, I did listen to IBM. Yes, I did listen to the Senate. Yes, I did comment on the NERC "joke" that they called a drill. I used to work for IBM, and I still respect their opinion, when it comes to computers.

The Yahoo forum, cpr? I think I spent about 5 days there, looking for an alternate site, after it was announced that TB2K could be down for the rollover. Show me your trail. Don't believe me? Ask Lurkinator.

Yes, my opinion was based on my experience. I have worked on several systems, financial, degree day forcasting, etc, that are very date sensative. 3+ decades of looking at programs that used CURRENT-DATE, did lead to my "it's not Y2K yet" comments. How about you, cpr, have you ever seen a program that uses CURRENT-DATE?

Please, cpr, tell me why the .gov wasted that $50,000,000.00. I have been looking for a reason. Maybe you can enlighten me?

Anything else that you would like me to comment on here, cpr? Just let me know...

<:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), June 25, 2000.

Kiss my ass Flint. I didn't get tricked by anyone. I was perfectly aware that there were some individuals hyping the situation for profit, I made my own decisions and did what I felt was appropriate. Everything I purchased is now being consumed, and it turns out I saved a lot of money because prices have gone up significantly. No regrets whatsoever, in fact I will be re-stocking my supplies again soon to keep at least 3 to 6 months on hand at all times. Y2K was an excellent opportunity to learn about sustainable living, but apparently you haven't learned anything except how to taunt others like a child. Grow up.

-- Hawk (flyin@hi.again), June 25, 2000.

Would anyone here want to have cpr as a boss? Sheesh, talk about "going postal"!

-- (nemesis@awol.com), June 25, 2000.

And cpr,

I think this has been posted enough, but I guess you just don't get it. What were you saying about the internal IBM memo, telling employees to "unplug" theis systems? Sure doesn't look like that to me:

IBM, Red Cross suggest safeguards for New Year's

Computer giant and aid agency suggest using common sense Jonathan Chevreau Financial Post

A recent internal publication issued by International Business Machines Corp. focused on the Y2K problem, advises employees around the world to make personal contingency plans and be prepared on personal finances, including putting aside some extra cash.

The special 1999 issue of IBM's Think magazine, headlined simply "Understanding Y2K," also advises workers to be flexible about vacation plans and to be prepared for unusually heavy workloads in the fourth quarter of 1999 and first quarter of 2000.

"In planning for the transition to 2000, nothing is being taken for granted, and few scenarios are too far-fetched," it warns.

For personal living preparations, it largely relies on the recommendations of the American Red Cross, available on the Internet at www.redcross.org/disaster/ safety/y2k.html.

"Stock non-perishable foods, water and medications you use regularly," the IBM publication says. "Have some extra cash on hand; fill your gas tank a day or so before New Year's Eve; and have blankets, gloves, flashlights and extra batteries on hand in case of power failures." (It suggests candles are hazardous.)

While the document says "there's no reason to panic," it also suggests that employees "should talk to your personal bank/credit union/health-care provider about whether they are ready." It also cautions people to "beware of rumours," particularly spread over the Internet.

While personal preparation suggestions are often cited by Y2K skeptics as coming from the lunatic fringe, it's quite another thing coming from IBM or the Red Cross.

But IBM acknowledges it has been essentially near "ground zero" in the whole Y2K phenomenon. In 1964, it reminds us, IBM introduced the System/360 mainframe, and used a two-digit year to conserve space on punch cards.

Indeed it is a former IBMer-- Peter de Jager -- who became dubbed the Paul Revere of the Y2K crisis when he issued his call for action in a 1993 article in Computerworld magazine, headlined "Doomsday 2000."

Last March, Mr. de Jager declared Doomsday had, in fact, been avoided, asserting that the world had at least broken the back of Y2K enough to avert the most far-out "end of the world as we know it" apocalyptic scenarios.

That doesn't mean there won't be days or weeks of disruptions. What's remarkable about the IBM publication is its repeated reminders that "all markets, all businesses, all governments and all communities are interconnected."

In fact, IBM's graphic descriptions of Y2K interconnectedness and interdependencies aren't radically different from the dire falling-domino theories of such Y2K doomsayers as Dr. Gary North and Joe Boivin.

"It's not enough to convert your own business, because you're not ready until your entire supply chain is," IBM says.

"It's not enough to live in a Y2K-ready neighborhood unless all its interwoven threads -- businesses, schools, neighbourhood associations, police and fire departments -- are ready. Y2K will throw these interconnections into sharp relief."

The publication warns of the billions of embedded chips contained in such diverse technologies as oil-drilling equipment, airplanes, medical devices and microwave ovens.

It says efforts to find and fix embedded chips will continue "well after Jan. 1, 2000." Mr. de Jager calls embedded chips the wild card of Y2K.

But Y2K, according to IBM, is not primarily about the way we code dates in computer software, hardware or components. Rather, "it's mostly about how information technology has spread throughout our economy, society and personal lives."

IBM recognizes that opinions about the consequences of not being Y2K- ready "range all over the map. Perhaps the biggest problem with Y2K is that no one knows exactly what will happen."

From its interaction with customers around the world, IBM does not see anything to support predictions of a global recession or some kind of "digital winter."

It says large U.S. organizations "should be ready," although it is "less certain ... how small businesses and less developed nations will fare... Many are on the move now, but they've got to pick up the pace."

IBM met with some internal resistance when it began one year ago -- relatively late in the game -- to gather data on contingency plans. It eventually came up with 10 scenarios "that could possibly go wrong -- from applications and systems failures to disruptions in utilities, telephone and public mail services." It called the exercise sobering.

That's why businesses have developed contingency plans and why individuals should also regard some personal preparations as a form of insurance against disruptions.

The Red Cross suggests having on hand at least a three-day supply of household staples. This is consistent with the most conservative Y2K- preparation gurus, who compare any possible disruptions to a weekend storm. There are plenty of Y2K experts who argue for a month or many months of supplies.

The Red Cross Disaster Supplies Kit checklist includes storing a gallon of water per person per day, non-perishable food, a first-aid kit, non-prescription drugs, various sanitation items such as toilet paper, tools such as flashlights and battery-operated radio, a non- electric can opener, warm clothing, extra eyeglasses or contact lenses and much more.

Canadian Y2K gurus would add to the list a supply of firewood for a fireplace or wood stove.

Don't wait until the final few weeks, since such supplies could be unavailable, scarce or very costly.

Coming from prominent Y2K gloom-and-doomers, such survival contingency plans might appear ludicrous. But when they come from IBM and the Red Cross, maybe -- just maybe --there may be cause to take at least the teensiest bit of personal preparations.

Besides, even if Y2K ends up a blustery gust rather than a raging storm, there's always the possibility a major blizzard or other act of God could strike.

Residents of Eastern Canada who suffered through the ice storm almost two years ago would have welcomed having a lot more than the Red Cross' three days worth of provisions. Mr. de Jager told CTV News last week that two or three weeks of provisions would be prudent.

As of tomorrow, there are just 100 days until the turn of the century.

Jonathan Chevreau can be reached by e-mail at jchevreau@nationalpost.com

<:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), June 25, 2000.

And just one more thing cpr,

I didn't comment on yout statistical analysis of the posts at TB2K.

Let me ask you this. Of the few posts that were on Debunky, Biffy, etc, how many were related to Y2K? From what I remember, most were mocking the swamp (TB2K), calling North an idiot, making fun of doomers, etc. Very little effort was made to make your polly point. Admit it, you had nothing better to do.

I'm not saying that the doomers didn't waste a bunch of time doing the same. But if you want to break it down, I think it's a draw, as far as what real facts were presented. Would you like to see my trail???

<:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), June 25, 2000.

It's probably hard to divide people into camps when your thinking about who learned more, I suspect some probably learned nothing, a few may have been jaded, and most learned positive things.

This current acrimony over y2k's outcome is hilarious, when you consider it in terms of this forum.. even Flint who argued as he did was preppped... I'd say that pretty much says it all right there.

-- Will (righthere@home.now), June 25, 2000.

Let me ask you this. Of the few posts that were on Debunky, Biffy, etc, how many were related to Y2K? From what I remember, most were mocking the swamp (TB2K), calling North an idiot, making fun of doomers, etc. Very little effort was made to make your polly point. Admit it, you had nothing better to do. I'm not saying that the doomers didn't waste a bunch of time doing the same. But if you want to break it down, I think it's a draw, as far as what real facts were presented. Would you like to see my trail??? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxx

What PLANET ARE YOU ON? Everthing on De-bunk and BIFFY was directed at countering the BULL SHIT FROM TB I, GARY AND THE REST OF BULL SHITTERS LIKE YOU. LUCKILY, the rest of the world is STILL LAUGHING AT YOU ALL.

-- cpr (buytexas@swbell.net), June 26, 2000.

NO, Charlie, actually the rest of THE WORLD (insofar as YOU seem to think THE WORLD exists on this internet forum) is still laughing at YOU!! It doesn't matter that YOU WERE RIGHT about Y2K. Most of the world was!! You still sound like a shrill, hystrionic snow monkey with rabies!! As an internet persona, YOU are a JOKE!! GET IT??? Heller's a joke. But, he couldn't carry your shorts when it comes to appearing like a RAVING STREET CORNER LUNATIC!!!

-- (Anonymous@Polly.now), June 26, 2000.

CPR:

"Why is "Extremism" in opposition to EVIL a vice?? Why is "moderation in the pursuit of "civility" a virtue?"

zeal7ot (zlt) n.

1.

a. One who is zealous, especially excessively so.

b. A fanatically committed person. See Synonyms at fanatic.

2. Zealot. A member of a Jewish movement of the first century A.D. that fought against Roman rule in Palestine as incompatible with strict monotheism.

Additional definitions available upon request.

-- Spindoc' (spindoc_99_2000@yahoo.com), June 26, 2000.

CPR,

Obviously, there are many evils in this world. There is also much that is good. The Y2K issue is mostly resolved. You have won your argument. Why not move on to more fruitful discussions?

-- Spindoc' (spindoc_99_2000@yahoo.com), June 26, 2000.

Maybe they were sheeple, maybe they were wise but the rest of the world never got into y2k on either side. The Polly/Doomer debate only existed in our hermetic place. The rest of the world is laughing at no one. They don't even know we exist.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), June 26, 2000.

The rest of the world is laughing at no one. They don't even know we exist. Awww, don't tell this to that little creeper fellow. It'll break his little black heart.

-- A Mind (is a terrible@thng to.waste), June 26, 2000.

Lars speaks volumes. Outside of the very few sites like this one, nobody, and I mean NOBODY even thinks about Y2K. For that reason we are a very select little group, very little, small, insignificant, not many people, maybe 250 max.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 26, 2000.

More like 25 max, if we don't count all of Princess cpr's sock puppets...

-- (he's SCREAMING@again.com), June 26, 2000.

Why is "Extremism" in opposition to EVIL a vice?? Why is "moderation in the pursuit of "civility" a virtue? -- CEEPER, 2000

He's trying to position himself as a possible candidate for Dubya's campaign, from the Barry Goldwater side of the party. (Pitiful thing is, Barry Goldwater was a lot more moderate than people gave him credit for. But would you want rapidly-losing-it CEEPER "a heartbeat away from the presidency?")

-- We Can Think Up Better Lines (DNC@We're.No.Better), June 26, 2000.

Please, cpr, tell me why the .gov wasted that $50,000,000.00. I have been looking for a reason. Maybe you can enlighten me?

Are you trying to say that the government has never before wasted large amounts of money? $50,000,000.00 is pocket change. They probably had to sacrifice about 4 whole days from the Congressional Scientific Study Of Cow Farts to pay for it.

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), June 26, 2000.

Please, cpr, tell me why the .gov wasted that $50,000,000.00. I have been looking for a reason. Maybe you can enlighten me?

Are you trying to say that the government has never before wasted large amounts of money? $50,000,000.00 is pocket change. They probably had to sacrifice about 4 whole days from the Congressional Scientific Study Of Cow Farts to pay for it.

---------------------------------

Exactly correct and the 100% approval for funding for the Y2k effort pretty much enabled the "we have to spend the money, its in the budget" mentality the D.C. enjoys and people like the SWILL around "Center for Y2k and wasted Grant money" most enjoy WASTING. Almost the first "review" of the Fed Effort contained statements in the Press that "no one knew what even *could* be done with the "Command Center"". ABC and Sam Donaldson were there on CDC and Donaldson's remark when Jennings asked how things were doing was classic, "Peter, we are dying here." Meaning there was nothing to report (the kiss of death for a top TV journalist).

At the State and Local level that did not go on even though there were many "command centers" mostly with Emergency response teams

Texas and Dallas both came in ontime or ahead of time and WAY under budget. Dallas was finished almost a year ahead and had to wait for 3 assorted things (one of which was a 3rd back up of a smaller main frame). Dallas did most of the work internally and squeezed vendors because we can (we are rated one of the best run cities in the country and pay on time or even take the 2/10 day discounts. (School system is not part of the city).

Dallas' status was never stated because the City Attorney and advisors did not permit it. That was bad news because it was a tremendous publicity score. Later on, Dallas with Boston were rated the two most prepared, ready and compliant cities. The Chamber of Commerce missed a great chance to Promo the City's Y2k status because of the Lawyers.

-- cpr (buytexas@swbell.net), June 26, 2000.

Hi Carlos and all,

First, Carlos, if I may take issue with a premise of yours: "Camps" don't learn. Individuals do -- or don't. And, since there are all kinds of things that could and have been learned from this experience -- well, that makes the issue of trying to force the learning into two "camps" even more problematic.

I was a doomer regarding Y2K, and was obviously dead wrong in my predictions. But I'm not a "natural" doomer, in any sense. For most of my life before July, 1998 and since this January, I've been, and am, almost an incurable optimist (although I try to stay objective), in just about every sense of that word.

I learn much better when I'm under pressure -- kinda like studying for a final. So what I had was a year-and-a-half long "week before finals" cramming (including hands-on practice) -- with the materials being practically everything I could get my hands on with respect to self-sufficiency. And by far, most of what I learned in that respect was absolutely priceless.

And I learned a lot about myself and others.

Finally, this whole thing forced me to come to terms with my own mortality and that of my loved ones.

I did spend some money on things I probably won't use. But, since I analyzed our risk to the best of my ability in doing so, however wrong I was -- I see that part as simply insurance expense.

One of the main things that caused me to go down the wrong path was the question of embeddeds, where apparently I looked at and focused on the wrong things and people. But I really don't think that it was because I consciously or subconsciously wanted to, because I'd never been a doomer about anything else, either before or since my Y2K experience.

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), June 26, 2000.

Which camp do you think learned MORE from this y2k experience?

I submit that the Doomers learned more from the y2k experience, Carlos. For example they may have learned: 1. If it sounds like BS, it just might be. 2. If what you read on the internet differs drastically with what you read from other sources, it might be BS. 3. If it is a dreaded doom thing, it's probably BS.

Basically, the pollies, or "DGI"s, actually had a clue, doomers did not. Post rollover, the pollies only learned what they already knew, while "the clue" whacked most doomers upside the head and NOW they REALLY get it....;)

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), June 26, 2000.

The Red Cross suggests having on hand at least a three-day supply of household staples. This is consistent with the most conservative Y2K- preparation gurus, who compare any possible disruptions to a weekend storm. There are plenty of Y2K experts who argue for a month or many months of supplies.

Now Sysman, look how you take the Red Crosses "three days of household staples" and stretch it to a month....thats YOU saying that Sysman, NOT the Red Cross. If your quoting a Y2K expert who was right about y2k pre-rollover, puleez give the name...

How you go from three days to what many doomers advocated for preps is beyond me. And how many people don't already have at least a three day or weeks supply of staples on-hand?

Sorry, request to blame the Red Cross and IBM for those who thought doom was a comin is denied....;)

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), June 26, 2000.

Hi FF,

No, it wasn't me that said it, but the author of the article. But yes, I did say in the past, that 3 days was a joke. Most households in the country could already survive for 3 days without a problem. Plus, several other .orgs were saying that a week or 2 worth of supplies was a good idea, especially in late '99.

Yea, I was one that figured a months worth of "supplies" was a good idea. I live in NJ, where the winters can be cold and nasty. We did install another 275 gal fuel oil tank, and had them both filled in late Dec. But this is something that we should have done years ago, and I'm glad that we did. This is a very old, big farm house, that goes thru oil on a cold day, like s!@t thru a goose. Even though we keep a close eye on the oil, we have run out in the past, when a cold front passes in January. We've always had a kero, and a few electric heaters, just in case. But these just don't cut it. They keep the pipes from freezing, but we still needed sweaters and a blanket...

As for food and water, we did stock up. But we haven't wasted anything. Everything is now gone, or I should say cycled out. We still keep a good supply of canned goods, not a months worth, but at least a few weeks. As I've said in the past, I'm glad that I was in a position be able to stock a little extra, for the neighbors if they needed any help, just in case things did go bad...

I'm not "sorry" for any of my preps. The generator came in very handy, last summer, and once so far this summer, with thunderstorms knocking out power, and last winter, when a snowstorm did the same thing.

cpr and co. say that people wasted their life savings, preping for Y2K. What can I say. It takes all kinds...

<:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), June 26, 2000.

Sysman,

Me too... all of that cheap diesel ( note to Creeper)... all of those cases of canned food that cost 50% more now ( another note to Creeper et al...)

So Charlie, why am I paying so much for fuel now??????????... I know your future options are paying off big time !!!!... so why?

From a real dickhead to an ass hole,

-- Netghost (ng@no.yr), June 27, 2000.

CROCK as usual from Net Wasted who needs to get a woman who knows how to buy.

Diesel DALLAS, 1990-1999:

1990-1998 1.09-1.2995

1999: 1.045 - 1.1235

2000: Last week: **1.345* Current range 1.345-1.59 (which only Stoop- Eds would pay.

range this yr.: 1.19-1.55 (bought 5 gal. at 1.55 and 2 days filled at 1.445).

I watch selected supermarket items weekly as one measure of inflation. Same for white goods, soft goods and almost all computer hardware/peripherals. The slide in boxed retail software has mostly stopped. Hardware continues via: Moore's Law with disc drive pricing now weird (20 gigs $129 to 149 major, 10 g. $79 to $99). If you buy "as needed" you pay retail. Learn to shop

MILK $1.49 Kroger's special for months as a loss leader (limit 4)

Bread, almost all brands go on sale 1 week /4. House brands white 24 oz 2/$1. wheat 24oz. low as .99

Canned Veg. Dallas, June, 2000: Generic 5 or 4 /$1.00 (Kroger)

Delmonte 3 /$1.00 (sale. Ofter 2/$1.00)

Soups too high and have been for 3 years ditto: Cereals, candy, cookies/baked goods, (anything double processed)

-- cpr (buytexas@swbell.net), June 27, 2000.

eve hits the bullseye for many:

"Finally, this whole thing forced me to come to terms with my own mortality and that of my loved ones."

-- flora (***@__._), June 27, 2000.

Well, to sum it all up, we all came out of y2k smelling pretty good. No loosers here...:)

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), June 27, 2000.