The biggee: abortion.

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Oh, what the hell. The subject came up on another thread, but it probably needs its own space.

Are you pro choice? Pro life? Why? And are you (like me) really horrified when you think how much of our nation's time and energy has been spent on this issue, when there are other things we ought to be worrying about?

To clarify that last statement, I'll give you my views: I am pro choice. I view first trimester abortions as nothing very different than contraception. Like a lot of people, I get a little squeamish about late (even second trimester) abortions, but I don't think it's particularly any of my business to make those decisions; I think that's between a woman and her doctor. However, I would willingly accept a law banning abortion outright in the third trimester and making them harder to get in the second trimester, because I think that would ease a lot of the political and emotional tension surrounding the issue, and maybe we could move on to other issues -- like improving our schools and coming up with some kind of health care system that works.

Oddly enough, I'm the only person I know who is willing to compromise at all on the issue, in either direction. How about you?

-- Anonymous, June 23, 2000

Answers

I'm pro-choice.

Over all, I believe that it is up to each individual to decide whether or not abortion is murder or an acceptable option in the face of an unwanted preganancy.

Who am I, to tell someone else what is right, when I am a complete stranger, unaware of that individual's situation and beliefs?

However, I do have problems with late second, or third trimester abortions, unless there are extenuating circumstances, such as rape or danger to the mother's health.

It's a very thorny issue and all I can do is think, what would I do if I were in the situation of having to choose.

When it comes down to it, I don't know if I could go through with an abortion. But I would want the option to be there if I felt that I needed to take that route.

-- Anonymous, June 23, 2000


I have two answers. Personally, i am pro-life. I can't imagine myself having an abortion. I don't want a baby right now, but if it happened, i can't see it coming to an abortion.

However, as far as society goes in general, i am pro-choice. My choice is no. But i think every woman should have the right to say yes or no. I don't think making it illegal is a viable option because there will always be some back-alley butcher willling to do a half-assed and potentially dangerous job for a ridiculous amount of money as long as everyone keeps their mouths shut about it. I think it's in the general best interest of women's safety to keep it legal.

Beth, you know, i had never thought of it in such a broken-down way before, but reading it like that, well i think it makes a lot of sense. It would help to prevent people from changing their minds because they suddenly decide "Nah, i don't want one after all".

But abortion is so much like every other picky topic - it's so easy to judge. Just because i personally don't believe i could do doesn't mean that i think anyone who had an abortion is a monster. Not at all.

I do think it would be useful to make some sort of mandatory counselling, say X amount of sessions, because most women that i know of suffer emotional and mental stress after the fact. If it was necessary to seek counselling after an abortion, it might help the women a lot quicker than them waiting until someone suggests it.

Here's a tangent question now: Do you think the man should have any right to protest an abortion? I've always wondered how a man would feel if he desperately wanted to keep the baby but the woman said "no, i'm aborting it". It's another tough twist.

-- Anonymous, June 23, 2000


I'm pro-choice. And willing to compromise on second- and third-trimester abortions, although I feel a little squidgy about feeling that way.

I think the part that makes me so queasy on the issue is that there are a lot of folks out there with all kinds of beliefs about what you should/shouldn't do, and what would happen if all those beliefs were to become law. What if blood transfusions were illegal (and I just found out that recycling one's own blood is a no-go under the same principles)? Or, to pick a less-emotionally-loaded (or maybe not) example, what if cosmetics were made illegal?

I, personally, believe that it is bad and wrong to stick a fork in your eye. I am strongly opposed to that sort of behavior. But that's your choice, just like it's my choice to keep my tableware on the table and not in my eye. Nobody's being forced to fork, nobody's being prevented from forking, and the only business that is mine is where it applies to my eyes. That's how I like it.

-- Anonymous, June 23, 2000


This is a tough subject for me.

I'm anti-Anti-Abortion. I am so sick of people protesting "murder" and then running out and killing doctors who perform abortions. It sickens me. While I agree that everyone that has views on the subject are entitled to their own oppinions, don't throw it in my face, or use "it's in the Bible" as an excuse to kill and harrass people. I know that these people are in the minority, but they rank up there with the "God hates fags" idiots. I was reading another journal, and the person who writes it has gotten hate-mail from anti-abortionists because of her strong views on the subject. One of them went so far as to say something like "you'll feel different when you fall in love with the little baby snuggled in your womb..." I wanted to throw up on that one. First off, the person obviously has a very Sesame Street view on pregnancy (did he think the fetus would have a blankie and a teddy bear in there?), and second, where does he get off telling people how they should feel?

When I was in college, a high school friend of mine admitted to me she'd had an abortion. She had been 13 and a victim of a date rape. Her parents knew, and they supported her decision. I respect her for what she did, because I know that at 13 she would not have had the maturity to be a mother.

All that being said, when I was faced with the thought that I might be pregnant, I was in a panic. Would I be able to have an abortion? I seriously don't know. My friend always thinks about her baby, about how old he would be right now, what he would look like. For someone who wants to eventually have kids, the idea that I would intentionally give one up is quite thought provoking. I've lain awake at night. Lukily for me, I wasn't pregnant. My pills just supressed my periods. Scary time, though.

-- Anonymous, June 23, 2000


Speaking as someone who's been there, even intelligent, well-educated people can screw up this contraception business. Giving everybody the option to back out of an unfortunate accident is a good idea. I agree with Beth that 1st-trimester abortions are little more than contraception.

I also have friends who have waited for years to adopt any baby they could get their hands on, healthy or not, who ended up adopting a boy from India with Hep C. Back in college, if my girlfriend hadn't had an abortion and instead had kept the baby, it would have ruined our lives as we knew them. If she had put the baby up for adoption, however, some couple out there would have gotten a baby who otherwise didn't.

My big problem with the pro-choice/anti-abortion issue is that the two groups are arguing the opposite sides of different arguments: pro- choice people say they have the right to decide what to do with their bodies, and anti-abortion people say abortion is murder. These two arguments exist in denial of the other 'side'.

The anti-abortionists could clarify their argument if they owned up to a couple points: (a) they can't prove that a fetus in the 1st trimester is a human being yet, but (b) it may not be human but it is alive. In other words, if they switched to arguing that an abortion kills something which, if left undisturbed, in the vast majority of cases would develop into a health human baby, they would suddenly have a much more powerful argument. It's not the actual physical thing today that matters; it's what it has the potential to develop into that matters.

The counter to this, for the pro-choice people, is that pro-lifers who practice contraception are only one little teeny step away from abortion by this reckoning. Choosing not to get pregnant when one is involved with someone is basically condemning that one egg or two eggs per month to never develop into human babies.

And that's the right-to-lifer's choice to make.

-- Anonymous, June 23, 2000



I'm very conflicted on the issue. I would agree to any compromise on abortion that satisfied a large majority, because I think single-issue voting on abortion has effectively marginalized the libertarians in American political discourse. That is, because libertarians are by definition both pro-choice and anti-big-government, they don't currenlty fit into either party. They would be a useful element in the GOP, I think, but for the abortion issue. In short, if we could prevent abortion from continuing to monopolize the spotlight, I would be all for that.

-- Anonymous, June 23, 2000

I gratefully have never had to choose--which puts me smack in the "what do you know about it, fucker?" camp that Randall Terry, Jerry Falwell, et al. are in. Nonetheless I still have my bright shiny opinions.

I have never had a second's squick about abortion as an issue of murder. I despise what I would call the irresponsibility behind elective (ie nonmedical) abortions after the first trimester and behind multiple elective abortions used instead of contraception. (I do recognize that some women cannot muster the funds, time off from work, transportation, etc. as rapidly as others, and that the inaccessibility of gynecological services in many parts of the country contributes to later abortions.) But the viability of the fetus isn't a concern for me.

Because of the irresponsibility factor, it'd be keen if illegalizing elective third-trimester (stats? anyone? what percentage of electives are third-trimester?) encouraged women to seek, and society to make easily available, earlier abortions, but I think it instead would lead to more births to unfit women. And there's the slippery-slope thing, which wouldn't be a problem if the government ever kept its promises, except it doesn't.

Bear-and-adopt doesn't make sense to me as an enforced abortion alternative. It reduces a woman to a brood-sow. As a choice for me, I am waaaaaay to selfish: I couldn't bear the mystery of a closed adoption nor the responsibility of an open one (any more than I ever wish the responsibility of any child at all). For women who do choose to bear-and-adopt (rather than have that scenario thrust upon them), well, they're not so selfish as I am (as long as, four years later, they don't decide they want their kid back and try to overturn legal adoption).

From how I see it, the priority of the pro-choice is the woman and the priority of the pro-life is the zygote. No matter what life the woman has, how stupid or irresponsible or unfortunate she is, her life is established. To me, she is the more important of the two.

Clinton said "safe and available but rare." This is achievable through education--about sex and self-esteem--, with freely available, faultless contraception (something like an on-off switch), and after tidying up social injustices.

Compromise? Like "We won't bomb or harass or threaten or berate or otherwise impinge on your first trimester choice if you will use the effective contraceptives whose development we will no longer battle and whose funding we will no longer deny; and and you will be educated enough to prevent the problem and self-confident enough to deal with inevitable human fallibility and you need not fear your parents' or society's or anyone's reprisal for your own, prompt, educated, responsible choice. In return, unless bearing this fetus will damage you, you'll only get to dither (if dither it be) for three months." Yeah, that sounds okay. Workable, maybe not; but fair, maybe.

----

As far as men who want their partners to bear their children, my sympathy varies.



-- Anonymous, June 23, 2000

I'm pro abortion. I think the fetus is alive and human, and it's probably murder to kill it, but I don't think that's wrong. I think it serves the greater good for the woman to have control of her body until the baby is a seperate entity. It doesn't bother me at all.

I've never had one, but I've come close. I know a couple of people who say they still feel sad about it, or even note the anniversary every year, but the majority of friends I've talked to say that it was just a big relief and they were never bothered by it.

I think it should be legal into the third trimester. It's the woman's body and her decision.

I don't think compromising on this will help - pro life people want to take away abortions any way they can. Some of them are anti contraception, too, either because the method kills the zygote (like the IUD) or it's just wrong to interfere with a natural process.

It is pretty amazing that our nation spends so much time and money on this issue.

-- Anonymous, June 23, 2000


I'm prochoice. That doesn't explain it completely though.

I believe every woman has the right to decide what goes on within their body.

Would I have an abortion now? No. I want a child now.

I did have an abortion at 14 though. I got pregnant the first time I had sex. I knew that having a child would ruin my life, whether or not I kept it or gave it up for adoption. (I would have been branded for life in the small town I grew up in).

I don't like abortion, I wish there was less of a need for it, but until there is 100% effective birth control (which is not going to happen) there will be a need.

-- Anonymous, June 23, 2000


"what percentage of electives are third-trimester?"

Third trimester abortions total less than .5% of all abortions in the USA. I don't have the stats on whether they are elective or medically needed.

-- Anonymous, June 23, 2000



Thanks, Suzy--and that's point five percent, if anyone missed the decimal point.

-- Anonymous, June 23, 2000

I have to agree totally with Beth. I've never been in a situation myself where I've had to make that type of choice, mostly due to planning but at least partially due to luck. And if I did find myself pregnant, I would at least like the comfort of knowing that the decision is in my hands. (Well, mine and my husband's.)

I don't agree with or support the adoption "if you don't want it, someone else will" argument. There are already too many children in the world waiting for adoption.

-- Anonymous, June 23, 2000


Well, I had one, so that makes me pro. It was never the monster trauma for me that it was for many people, because I never bonded with the baby in my head or thought about her as a baby or anything.

I remember her, I think of her as a girl, and I know that she would have been twelve in July. I probably will always know how old she would have been, but I never regretted it or was sad about it, because I was 23 years old with no money and no insurance in the middle of a dying relationship (he would never have abandoned the baby, but had we stayed together for the sake of a baby, it would have ended even more badly than it did).

It was the right decision, and I'm glad that I was able to make it, and wasn't punished just because the condom broke.

There were some girls at the clinic the same time I was who were younger than I was and were having abortions that weren't their first, and refused the free packs of pills that they were giving out. I just don't get abortion as birth control, because it really really hurts!

-- Anonymous, June 23, 2000


Suzy, do you have a source on that? I'm not doubting you; I need to quote that stat in another forum in order to complete an argument, and I'll get shot down if I don't provide a source. Thanks!

-- Anonymous, June 23, 2000

I've always found the "abortion is murder" claim to be kind of weird, because at no other time is anyone required to give so much of herself to prevent someone from dying. No one is required to donate a kidney to save someone else's life. Hell, you could beat someone up until they suffered kidney failure, and you'd sure get in trouble for it, but no one would think you owed them a kidney. You can watch someone getting shot outside your window, and not call the police, and that's legal. (Though, I would argue, quite wrong.) This is fundamentally why I'm pro-choice: I don't feel I owe anyone my services as an incubator.

I'm a little leery of the whole viability issue, too. In time, practically any fertilized egg with be viable outside the mother--with sufficient expenditure and medical expense, of course. I'd hate to see that be a line, since it's such a moving target and since, being hard-hearted, I'd rather see that money spent on people who already exist.

-- Anonymous, June 23, 2000



Do you think the man should have any right to protest an abortion?

Everyone has a right to protest -- of course the father has a right to state his opinion. He even has a right to try to convince his partner to change her mind, to a certain point, as long as "convincing" doesn't become bullying, harrassing or badgering.

Once a final decision has been made, then I think it is in the best interests of both parties to stick the decision they've made.

For one male perspective on this issue, I can quote my sweetie.

When we discussed the unlikely event of an unplanned pregnancy, early in our relationship, Sabs stated that the decision to abort or not, would be mine and mine alone and he would abide by that decision. He didn't feel as if he had the right to take that decision away from me. He also stated unequivocally that if we did have an unplanned child together and I decided to carry to term, that he would be there to support me and our child, no matter what happened between us.

-- Anonymous, June 23, 2000


I'm pro-choice.

I started having sex at a young age, and always felt that I would have an abortion if I ever got pregnant before the age of 18. I recognized the fact that I wouldn't possibly be emotionally, mentally or financially responsible enough to raise a child.

Now, I know I could never have an abortion. Even though Jake and I, at first, never wanted children, and then just started talking about it MIGHT not be tragic, when we got pregnant, there was no discussion required. There was never any doubt in our minds that we would have and raise our child. And even though we don't currently plan on having any others, I won't tempt Fate a second time by saying it Will.Not.Happen.. If we ever find that I'm pregnant again, I'm sure we'll have and raise that child as well.

However, I do respect every other woman and the fact that their body is their body and I have zero right to tell anyone else to have or not have a child.

Though, admittedly, I did get disgusted by someone I knew that had an abortion. Only because she tried many "natural" things to cause herself to miscarry (teas and herbs and such) and after a month and a half when nothing worked she went and had an abortion. That's all very well and good, but THEN, after I had Jessica, she came over with her husband to visit and at one point she turned to her husband and said: "can we have one of those?"

Yes, this was AFTER she'd had an abortion AND after her husband had had a vasectomy(sp?).

It just rubbed me SUCH a wrong way. She HAD her chance to "have one of those". "One of those" was even a DETERMINED little spirit and tried to hang in there through all her attempts to naturally abort and she went and had the medical procedure done anyway.

It just made me shake my head.

More required counseling. Maybe that's the ticket. I dunno.

-- Anonymous, June 24, 2000

While it's a legal option available people should be entitled to avail themselves of it, but personally I am pro-life - to me, life is sacred, nobody is entitled to take it away, and it begins at conception.

And now I'll back slowly away from this thread, because this is a big 'hot topic' for me. I've had several friends who've had abortions, and I've supported them despite my personal feelings about it all, so for my own peace of mind I choose to be an ostrich with my head in the sand on this one.

-- Anonymous, June 24, 2000


I don't put up stuff about abortion on Medley very often but I happened to just recently so I'll quote it here:

William Saletan of Slate has an article at The New Republic on abortion and the death penalty and the alleged inconsistencies in those of us who think the gov't should keep its nose out of the former and are opposed to the latter.

The reason we're rethinking the death penalty today is the same reason we liberalized abortion laws 30 years ago: We're learning that the state is too clumsy to handle it. [...]

People who support the death penalty in principle are getting cold feet about its application because they are coming to doubt that the government makes these decisions wisely. That kind of doubt is not a reason to support tougher abortion laws. It's a reason to oppose them. [...]

The question of abortion, like that of execution, can be put in practical terms: How confident are you of the state's ability to comprehend and resolve the morality of each individual case? If you have misgivings about both the death penalty and broad restrictions on abortion, are you inconsistent in your respect for life? Or are you consistent in your respect for life's complexity? At its core, this perspective isn't about saving lives or fighting for women's freedom. It's about the limits of our ability to apply rigid principles. It's about humility. [emphases added]



-- Anonymous, June 24, 2000

I've had abortions and am totally pro-choice. I don't feel any guilt or sense of loss at all. I was young/careless/horny and shit happens. But, I do think you should make the decision within the first trimester and take care of the problem as early in the pregnancy as possible.

That being said, when I reached 30 and tried to have a baby on purpose, I've had miscarriages and an ectopic pregnancy which all resulted in surgeries and subsequent depression. I'm 40 now and will never have children(of my own). I'm sure the churchies would say that I'm being punished. What do you guys think?

-- Anonymous, June 24, 2000


I've never had to make the decision so save me a cabin in that "You don't have the right to speak about this, bitch" camp. I am pro- choice. While I would never have an abortion myself under any circumstances whatsoever, I do believe that the option should be available for other women who might need to have that option available to them at some point in their lives.

Do I believe that abortion is murder? Yes, I do believe that in a way it is. A woman that ends the life of the baby growing inside of her no matter what time during the pregnancy is technically ending someone's life in a harmful manner. I know this isn't everyone's belief so that is why I am pro-choice for the general population of women.

-- Anonymous, June 24, 2000

Nasty things can happen during pregnancy. Nobody likes to talk about them, but pregnancies can go badly awry in mid to late second trimester, and an abortion can become a medical necessity. It's a horrible experience -- one I wouldn't wish on anyone, even those in the "never under any circumstances" camp.

-- Anonymous, June 24, 2000

i'll just say that I'm pro-life. I believe that life starts at conception. And it's not OK to kill a human life outside the womb, so why should it be OK to kill inside the womb.

-- Anonymous, June 25, 2000

"Suzy, do you have a source on that? I'm not doubting you; I need to quote that stat in another forum in order to complete an argument, and I'll get shot down if I don't provide a source. Thanks! "

I'm looking for the original source. I'm on several debate lists and this is one of the stats that I actually remember. When I find it, I'll post it.

-- Anonymous, June 25, 2000


"I'm sure the churchies would say that I'm being punished. What do you guys think? "

I don't believe you're being punished. Many women who have an abortion have children everyday. Sometimes shit happens though. Like I said, I had an abortion at 14, We're trying to conceive now with no luck. I'm not being punished.

My PCOS has just gotten worse. Someday I will have a child, either by birth or adoption.

-- Anonymous, June 25, 2000


Strongly pro-choice, which is not the same as pro-abortion. My choice was not to abort. I've faced that question for both rape and health, and am content with the choices I made - but they were MY choices, and i'd feel very different about my children if I felt they'd been unvoluntarily foisted on me in those situations. I would never, ever dream of even pressuring someone else (much less compelling them via legislation) to make that same choice.

I still reserve the right to be *angered* by those who use it as a birth control method, even while agreeing that it is their 'right' to do so. A legal right isn't always ethically right, ya know...

I flinch hard at the idea of third trimester abortions, and I can't wrap my mind around the idea that anyone WOULD choose such a thing except in the most compelling of cases - but I'm also squeamish about legislating it, because in those situations time would be crucial factor that if one had to go through a process of persuading authorities that it had legal basis, it would be a moot point.

Nor do I go for the theory that it's murder *unless the woman has been raped*. That is too close to saying 'she should be punished for having sex unless we're sure that she not only didn't want to get pregnant, but she didn't want to have sex.' If it's murder, what does her rape have to do with that... and if it's not, then we're just punishing female sexual activity.

And why on earth would a woman whose been raped wait until the third trimester and then decide she can't cope with being pregnant, long enough to deliver the child and place it for adoption?

-- Anonymous, June 25, 2000


Oh geez. whatever my personal feelings, I cannot, in good conscious, agree with any law that restricts abortions to "when it's medically necessary". Any type of abortion, any reason. That's a step in the wrong direction and will only bring more unwanted babies into the world to parents who have no way to care for them.

I saw a bumper sticker recently: "If it's not a baby, you're not pregnant", I think taking away the argument that it's not a baby until this or that week. I want to create a bumper sticker that says "If you don't have a uterus, you don't have an opinion". Yeah, some guys will be in that situation and have to help their girlfriends out, my boyfriend did, but not many guys are gonna be there. Certainly not the ones who grow up to be politicans. I know I'm generalizing, but that's so easy to do.

Talk about trippy - less than 24 hours before I was scheduled to go in for my abortion, I miscarried. In a church bathroom. And I'm not even religious.

As for pro-lifers, dude, if you're taking in pregnant teenagers and helping them make decisions and helping them raise their baby, more power to you. If you're picketing outside a clinic where I'm trying to get my goddamn Pap smear, fuck you. If you're trying to provide safe and healthy alternatives to abortions, or educate women about adoption options, or something that is positive, good for you. We need more like you. But if you're shooting abortion doctors and trying to make it impossible for women who need abortions to get them, you are a poor excuse for a human being.

-- Anonymous, June 25, 2000


I'm very much pro-choice, having made the decision myself, and I think the biggest fault of the pro-lifers is forgetting that some women who have abortions make the decision as MOTHERS and not just as women trying to rid themselves of an inconvenience. Many women I know wanted to do what was best for the potential child, and felt that abortion was the right path.

I have issues with late second and third trimester abortions, simply because the woman already had five months to take care of it, and by that point the fetus can survive outside the womb (albeit with medical attention. It's a very grey area, understandably).

I also don't agree with the woman who suggested more counseling. I was lucky enough to not be in a state where counseling was required. I was angry at the thought of having to find transportation not only for the procedure, but for the required counseling and subsequent 24 hour waiting period. Two four hour drives in three days. That wasn't possible in my situation, and I'm glad I was able to avoid it. I can't imagine what some girls go through..

-- Anonymous, June 25, 2000


Is it human life if it's 49% human and 51% something else?

I was just thinking of all the recent capabilities, and actual cases where human cells and parts of humans exist combined with some other animal.

-- Anonymous, June 25, 2000


I seem to fall into the "Been there, done that" camp.

I had one when I was nineteen. I had been on the Depo shot and used a condom. Why did I do it? Hmm. I was nineteen. I was in school. I was young and immature. I drank unbelievable quantities and did some light drugs (LSD, pot) quite regularly. I was convinced, if I carried the child to term (I was six weeks when I found out and had been quite messed up for those six weeks) that the child would likely be born with deformities, as a result of my drug use.

The "father" told me he didn't want to speak to me anymore, he wished I was dead. Luckily, I had very supportive friends who loaned me money and took me to have the procedure. It was rough, not in the "I'm killing something" way but it did a lot to open up my eyes as to what I was doing to my life. I might have ended a life in some people's eyes, but I ended up saving my own.

The mandatory counseling would NOT work. I had to have a pregnancy test before the procedure to estimate the age of gestation--it was rammed down my throat that I didn't have to do this. People called me all the time. They gave me little pamphlets with pictures of "Your Baby at Six Weeks", etc. If women need counseling post-abortion, leave it to them to select the how and the why. THEY KNOW why they're doing it. They don't need to discuss it endlessly with someone, who more likely than not, is a pro-lifer and will just make them feel like shit.

When I went in to have it, people outside the gate screamed that I was a murderer and I was going to go to hell. All I could wonder was if those people had kids--and if they did, why weren't they with their kids and why the hell are they so concerned about me?

It's been seven years and yeah, every few years I think about it and wonder what s/he would look like, what I would be doing, how would things be, etc.

I don't regret it. Not for a second. It would have destroyed my life and, in turn, destroyed the child's. I would have never finished college, most likely. I would not have a good internship right now, preparing for graduate school. I don't ever feel like I'm being punished but I think I owe it to myself to make the best life possible for me and any future children, so that will not have happened in vain.

But no, Beth, I don't know why everyone is so consumed with this issue. Let's worry about the kids we already have, okay?

-- Anonymous, June 26, 2000


Beth, are we being as well behaved as it seems, or are you deleting hundreds of entries from those who have gone ballistic?

-- Anonymous, June 26, 2000

Tom: nope, I haven't deleted a post in ages, on any topic. We only get riled up about online journals, I think.

Although everyone has been pretty polite about the Kim and Gus thing, too.

-- Anonymous, June 26, 2000


Well, you can probably guess what I was going to say, but I think focusing on abortion, flagburning and a few other lifestyle issues is a deliberate tactic to keep us from focusing on big picture stuff like the benefits of increased economic productivity going almost entirely to a small portion of the population, or the fact that someone can work 20 years for a company or go off and fight and kill for his country yet still get evicted by a greedy landlord if a greedy boss decides it's more profitable to employ 14 year old Indonesian kids than American families.

Corporate funded Democrats like Al Gore can pretend they are on your side because you agree only on abortion even though they are selling us out.

When's the last time you heard a politician call for a thirty hour work week? When's the last time you heard a politician call for politicians' salaries to be equal to the median income in the district they represent?

No, they talk about flag burning, abortion, and gay marriage.

We just have to stop falling for it.

-- Anonymous, June 26, 2000


David Grenier said: increased economic productivity going almost entirely to a small portion of the population

I'm not sure what you--but if you meant to say the benefits of a boom economy are going only to a small portion of the population, then I'd have to ask where the heck you're living.

-- Anonymous, June 26, 2000


Flag burning, abortion, gay marriage seem to be the only issues we are worried about only because they are 3 issues that arouse much emotion.

Abortion has been legal in the USA since 1973, yet it is one of the most debated issues because there are strong emotions for or against.

If we're going to bring up other issues, how about this one? Why do so few people actual vote? Why isn't everyone who is eligible vote at the polls on election day?

-- Anonymous, June 27, 2000


I'm pro-choice and pro-abortion. I don't really care what trimester the woman is in. It's her choice. I had to make that choice, too, so I know how horrifying it is. It's pisses me off when I hear MEN talking about this issue, like it's any of their concern, or business. All they do is supply the sperm. That's it. Then they roll over and fall asleep, leaving you with a belly full of shit you didn't want. Any woman against abortion is a disgrace to our female species. You make me sick. It's your body, no one else's, and especially not a man's, whom you're letting decide the future of your reproductive freedom. Just remember that. Men don't have periods. They don't get cramps. They don't bleed for 7 days straight and still live. Their bellies don't swell up with life in them. They'll never go through pregnancy. Women do. It's our right, and our choice, and our beliefs. No one else's. It's time women stand up for themselves, and stop following the men behind them in their shadows, listening to the bullshit they feed us about how "we're killing babies," or that "you'll go to hell." Please! Stay the hell out of my life and my bedroom, while you're at it. If men want a say in my reproductive freedoms, then they need to cut their dicks off and grow a uterus. Then, maybe, I'll listen to what they think they have to say in the matter. Women, it's time to get out of the kitchen.

-- Anonymous, June 30, 2000

"Any woman against abortion is a disgrace to our female species. You make me sick. It's your body, no one else's."

Damn straight - and that includes yours and the 'female species'. I love how people say it's your choice until you choose differently from how they want you to.

-- Anonymous, June 30, 2000


All they do is supply the sperm. That's it. Then they roll over and fall asleep, leaving you with a belly full of shit you didn't want.

Annie, I agree with some of your post, but the above makes me question your level of responsibility.

-- Anonymous, June 30, 2000


Agreed, Lynda. I know this is hard for some people to accept, but there are reasons totally unrelated to feminism why a person, male or female, might be opposed to abortion. That's why it's such a complex issue, and it irritates me to no end when the parties on either side of the equation oversimplify the problem. I think perhaps this is the reason we are still mired in this issue after so many years -- neither side is willing to acknowledge the views of the other side.

-- Anonymous, June 30, 2000

Damn Annie! -- are you sure you're not that instigator of unrest, Dave Van?

-- Anonymous, June 30, 2000

Oh boy...

This is going to be a looooong one, folks. (Lynda, hit the snooze button. You know what I'm going to say.)

The reason why so few people are willing to compromise on the issue is that it's a matter of definition, not reasoning. If a fetus is a human life, than killing it is murder, end of story. It's no more to be condoned than death camps, which is exactly how the anti-abortion fanatics--and I'm not saying all anti-abortion forces are fanatics-- feel about it.

If a fetus is a part of a woman's body, than no one else has a right to dictate it, any more than it's anybody else's business to tell me to remove my appendix or not. It's MY decision.

It's not a matter of reasoning, because both descriptions can be argued as valid. It's a matter of initial definition.

Slavery was another matter of ...definition. Europeans winked at it until they saw slaves as, by definition, human beings like themselves, instead of a "lower" sub-species. The only way they could defend it in their own mind was to somehow make the slave subhuman.

Now, I grew up in the fifties and sixties and became an adult in the early seventies. My generation saw the eighteen-year-old vote, abortion on demand, the end of the draft, as goals to be accomplished, and we accomplished them. We were proud to accomplish them.

A...female I knew got pregnant. Not by me. Her boyfriend was a waiter and barely had two nickels to rub together. I had recently started my first job, and had saved quite a bit.

I told her the balance, and I wrote her a blank check. She got the abortion. (And skipped to NYC with the rest of the balance in the checkbook, but that's another story.)

I felt really good about it. At the time, I didn't think she was at all ready to become a mother. I was utterly pro-choice at the time, and I felt very magnanimous and selfless.

Cut to a decade later. Barb had recently gone off the Pill. We were using condoms and/or the sponge waiting for the suggested six months after going off the Pill before really trying to get pregnant, but sometimes condoms break, sometimes sponges weren't totally effective.

She was in the bathroom and--passed something. She saw it floating in the toilet water, and screamed, and called me, near-hysterical. I told her to call her doctor, while I rushed home. The doctor had asked us to put what Barb had passed into some sort of container. It was so small, it fit into those tiny cylindrical pill bottles, the ones you can put with the---no irony intended---childproof caps.

Barb was driving, and I was holding the small bottle. I was staring at it. I could see the face, the small limbs. The doctor later told us that it had not totally stuck to the uterine wall, due to Barb recently being on the Pill.

I want you to pay attention to the next statement.

It didn't look like a ...fetus. That didn't describe it --at all.

It looked like a baby forming.

Those are two words/phrases that mean the same thing...but have a world of difference, emotionally.

I have every sympathy with a woman stuck in a horrible situation. I won't condemn or rail against anyone choosing an abortion. I think idiots who kill abortion doctors are killers, pure and simple, and I don't think protesters should block or harrass a woman making the most difficult choice of her life.

But at that moment, my definitions ....turned around.

They did for Barb, too, who's more actively anti-abortion than I am. For a while she wasn't buying EXXON products because they contributed to Planned Parenthood. Which didn't keep either of us from supporting Clinton in the last two elections. We're not one-issue vorters. Still...

I'm hoping someday that birth control will be so effective that the very few unplanned pregnancies that happen (six month birth control shots, that are absolutely reliable--that sort of thing) will be "frozen" and released for the few couples who can't conceive. That someday the idea of abortions will be irrelevant, as the cotton gin rendered the financial "need" for slavery...irrelevant.

But in my heart of hearts, do I now consider it killing? Do I consider myself a murderer, for giving that girl a blank check?

Just a bit, people. Just a bit.

Al of NOVA NOTES.



-- Anonymous, July 02, 2000


I so wasn't going to revisit this topic, but this caught my attention:

"Any woman against abortion is a disgrace to our female species. You make me sick. It's your body, no one else's."

I guess the way abortion is used as a specific tool to stop more members of the female species (and it's a gender, not a species - 'human' is a species) being born doesn't enter into it? I don't think abortion is particularly empowering to women in India and China, aborting female fetuses.

I'm definitely pro-choice ... you choose to be sexually active, to use or not use contraception ... it's not particularly difficult to avoid getting pregnant, and emotive 'what if you were raped' arguments aside, most abortions result from people failing to act in a responsible manner.

I've already posted that while abortion is legal I think women should have the right to have them without being harrassed for it, but this doesn't mean I agree with the concept of abortion. I said in the death penalty thread that my fundamental belief is life is sacred. To me, having the legal right to abort seems to be nothing more than a question of location - otherwise, why can't I drown my newborn child if I decide I'm not coping? And the argument about what stage of pregnancy is OK for abortions really seems odd to me - you know that, if you leave that fetus alone, it will develop into a human baby - it's not like there's an element of doubt and it might just turn out to be a tumour or something. Is it only OK to abort before it can suck its thumb? That whole issue sounds like trying to make an obviously unpalatable situation slightly easier to deal with.

I really resent being labelled a traitor to my gender simply for believing something different. That's far more preachy and close- minded than almost anything I've ever heard a pro-lifer say.

-- Anonymous, July 02, 2000


I would also like some compromise, Beth.

I think that our society's unwillingness to navigate through difficult ethical/moral territory is holding everyone back from better solutions. We tend to want to reduce every complicated situation to one general argument for or against.

I think that this comes from our legal system, and the general fear of setting legal precedents. Unfortunately, most human and societal problems are extremely subtle in nature, and therefore are not done justice within our legal system.

I personally believe that abortion can be classified as a type of murder, but also have no problem saying that it is completely different from our standard notion of murder. Sometimes, in a situation in which nothing is completely "right" we must settle for the best solution possible. Sometimes that means trying to limit the number of people involved in a "bad" situation, so we choose not to bring a pregnancy to term. Abortion cannot be held up to the act of murder committed against a fully sentient being, because it is not the same. Similar, yes, but definitely not the same.

That being said; I also think that out of the same fear of legal precedent, women are being done an injustice by the pro-choice unwillingness to compromise. Abortion, particularily in the second and third trimester, can be physically and emotionally traumatic. Not a decision to be made lightly, and not a procedure to be performed in a clinic which is not carefully scrutinized because of the fear of drawing public attention to problems and giving the pro-lifers ammunition.

I am pro-choice. But, I am also pro-female, and I think that for all women's sake we should have some more attention paid to the actual abortion process: The emotional and physical effects of late-term abortion and the often brutal, and downright cruel, atmosphere in abortion clinics. I speak of the latter from both personal and anecdotal experiences. It's not something that is studied by impartial parties. It should be.

-- Anonymous, July 02, 2000


Ack. I feel like I should add some things to my previous post.

Re: murder. If one is truly against killing another being, then one needs to consider the following situations: war, the death penalty, euthanasia, the eating of meat, self-defense, and of course, abortion. If, in your heart, you can see no justification for any of these acts, then you are a pacifist. If you find that you think any of them are justified, then you need to examine what other arguments, besides "it's murder!" you have against the particular acts you object to.

It seems to me that pro-lifers, as a rule, equate the birth of babies with their faith and hope. In which case, their time and money would be better spent providing hope to those who have none.

-- Anonymous, July 02, 2000


I don't know if I would get an abortion or not if God forbid I got pregnant. I wouldn't want to go through either pregnancy or aborting...but seeing as I'd make a horrible mother, I think it'd be better for the "child" if I aborted...and I do know that if I carried it to full term I'd get attached to it and then no longer be able to give it up...then screw him/her up royally raising it. This doesn't sound like the best option to me. Though my mother once said if I got pregnant to please, please, please not abort...sigh.

I suppose it's murder, but then again, I believe in the death penalty, self-defense, etc. Mom was there first, sometimes birth control fails even when you try, and she shouldn't have to be doomed to be a mother if she doesn't want to be. Pregnancy takes a LOT out of you and can really fuck with your health, and I don't think someone should be forced to stay pregnant either. Seeing as pregnancies tend to run rocky in my family, I really wouldn't want to go through all of that for a child I didn't want.

I just get mad that women can never have sex without running the risk of changing their lives forever to some degree. Men who don't have this problem and can run away when their girlfriend gets pregnant can't relate to it in the same way.

-- Anonymous, July 04, 2000


PRO-CHOICE! That's it...

-- Anonymous, July 04, 2000

First off I wanna say that while it IS a woman's body this is not just a woman's issue. Someone just said a few posts ago that men can just run away from this problem, well while many do many more don't and there are complications beyond that too... A very close friend of mine was thrilled when he found out that his girlfriend was pregnant... then she decided to have an abortion... and he had to abide by her decision, even though he really wanted a child and was against abortion. Of course the immediate answer to this is that it IS the woman's body but line doesn't make it right to ignore the other parent... contrary to a lot of bad press many males do give a damn

btw I'm strongly pro-choice but don't like the idea of abortion. I hate the idea of forcing anyone to do anything (I even hate seatbelt and crash helmet laws!)

-- Anonymous, July 05, 2000


I just thought my older sister's abortion-related experience might be of interest. She accidentally got pregnant when she was 19 and in her first year of Law School. She didn't know she was pregnant until she got sick with suspected kidney problems, and had been on medication for this. The university doctor didn't just offer her abortion as an option - he told her she should have an abortion because the baby would almost certainly be retarded as a result of the medication she'd been taking.

My sister is seriously pro-life, and didn't consider the option of abortion. Sure enough, the baby was absolutely 'normal' in every way. She's since told a number of doctors about her experience, and every single one has reassured her that there was no chance of that medication causing any such problems - it's actually prescribed to to pregnant women on occasion (I know it would be helpful if I knew what the medication was called, but sorry - I don't).

The only conclusion that I think can be drawn from this is the doctor was deciding she, as a young student, should have an abortion. That doesn't seem very pro-choice, as he was ramming one option down her throat, and using completely bogus scare tactics to support his view. This was a university doctor, remember - imagine how many other pregnant girls he'd told similar bullshit stories to.

Abortion may be legal, but it's not good for the baby concerned (duh!), and it's definitely not always empowered for the pregnant woman.

-- Anonymous, July 05, 2000


I'm not very good at putting together a full argument, so I'll just add a few thoughts as I've read the posts:

1. I'm with Beth: first trimester okay, second trimester with some restrictions, third trimester only if there's a medical reason. As someone above said, if you have a healthy baby and have waited 7 or 8 months, wait another few weeks and put it up for adoption.

2. For all those people (fanatics) protesting so vigilantly and violently, one question---after these babies are born, how much are you willing to do to support them? Will you adopt these unwanted babies? Increase welfare? Increase your taxes to pay for things their parents are unwilling or unable to pay for? You can't just wish the pregnancies out of existence!

3. I had to question my strong pro-choice feelings when I found out that 1 out of 5 pregnancies end in abortion. I had thought it the realm of frightened high school or college girls....but apparently it happens a lot. It seems like it's too easy, or too common---I'm pro- choice, I suppose, but only if it's a really difficult choice.

-- Anonymous, July 05, 2000


I think it's murder, but I'm pro abortion. I'm also in favor of the death penalty and euthanasia. Killing a mass of cells that have the potential for becoming human is not as bad as making the woman carrying those cells carry the child to term.

That being so, I don't see a problem with 1 out of 5 pregnancies ending in abortion. It doesn't matter to me if it's frightened high school girls or married women in their 30s who don't want another child. Nobody should have to bear a child if they don't want to. I don't even have a problem with using it as birth control. Basically, I don't think there should be any limits.

I sympathize with men whose partners abort when they would have wished for the child, but it's not a situation that allows compromise.

-- Anonymous, July 05, 2000


Susan, I would be interested to know the demographic breakdown of the statistic "1 out of 5 pregnancies end in abortion." The US (and other countries) has had a tradition of encouraging abortion (as well as sterilization) in especially poor and black (and I think other non- caucasian) women, while discouraging them in white middle class women.

also, regarding adoption. A few years ago, in a course on gender issue in the US, we found statistics indicating that the demand for caucasian babies to be adopted far exceeded the number 'available', while the 'available' number of non-caucasian babies grew and grew. I haven't heard that this situation has turned around.

-- Anonymous, July 05, 2000


trouble:::: You're wrong about the US "encouraging" abortion. Haven't you heard the controversy over using public monies to "encourage" abortion; i.e., include it in Medicaid? Sheesh...the reason the US is in arrears in its UN dues is because of right wing politicians opposing its support of birth control and abortion.

It's much easier to get an abortion if one has private insurance.

-- Anonymous, July 05, 2000


One aspect of the abortion debate that I find extremely troubling is the increasing irrelevance of the law with respect to the access women have to abortions in the United States. I was particularly disturbed to read in this week's issue of Newsweek that Dr. LeRoy Carhart, the surgeon who initiated the suit resulting in the recent Supreme Court decision against laws banning partial-birth abortions is being forced out of his Bellevue, Nebraska clinic space by pro-lifers:

"Three people in the area, including a pro-life legislator, recently formed a partnership to buy the building where Carhart has his clinic. Then they served him with an eviction notice. Bellevue's mayor says he's going to ask realty agents in town not to help Carhart find another building for his practice."


-- Anonymous, July 05, 2000

That's true. Hospitals are doing a lot of cost cutting and merging nowadays, and one of the big players is a Catholic hospital company whose name I forget. When they merge with a hospital, one of the things they don't announce is that that hospital will no longer be doing abortions.

If no hospital or provider in your area does them, they might as well be illegal.

-- Anonymous, July 06, 2000


Just a comment on the men-can-run-away bit- I was referring to the fact that women are completely stuck with dealing with the problem, while men can choose to deal with it or not (i.e. run off). Until they get tracked down for child support whether they wanted it or not, that is. There's just so much inequality in the whole thing.

In a way I feel bad for the guy who really didn't want a child and the woman who did- he has to pay for 18 years, plus the child will probably want him to be his/her father in more than name whether he likes it or not. (Feel sorrier for the child, though.) And yes, it is pretty awful for a man who really wanted the child and the woman who really doesn't. But either way, they can't make the decision. It affects the woman more, always, so she gets the right to pick. And therefore they're just stuck.

-- Anonymous, July 06, 2000


Go to any Wal-Mart on a Saturday. There's all the evidence you need for compulsory retroactive abortion.

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2000

First of all, its all you pro abortion feminazis that are a disgrace to the female sex. You have NO RIGHT to kill an innocent being just because you wanted some dick. Are you a rooting, wild animal that can't control yourselves?? And all you whore who have had abortions and don't feel an ounce of guilt or regret, fuck you. There is a special spot in hell reserved just for you and your kind. This is a war and you are losing. We will win. Go fuck yourselves!

-- Anonymous, April 02, 2001

GothicBlaze -

If I am indeed destined to go to hell because I support a woman's right to choice, then so be it. Although my definition of hell would mean being surrounded by unsympathetic and close-minded individuals such as yourself.

Have a lovely day.

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001


I know this thread is way old and the guy is a troll but I can't help it. The following lines made me laugh:

Blah blah blah... just because you wanted some dick. (well, that's just funny)

Blah blah blah... and don't feel blah blah or blah, fuck you. (Isn't that how they got in the predicament? Abstinence friend. Your side advocates absitnence.)

Go fuck yourselves! (if only)

-- Anonymous, April 09, 2001


If this question had been posed to me three months ago, I would have answered: Generally, pro-choice; personally, pro-life. I would never have been able to imagine creating a life from an essential part of myself and nurturing it within my womb, only to consciously come to a decision to end its existance. What a torturous process that must be.

Then, it happened to me.

I got pregnant on Valentines Day. I have a 4-year-old child. I don't in any way advocate free love, and I know the choices (mistakes) I have made in my life have ramifications. I'm not a perfect person and in no way claim to be. But I think what many Pro- Lifers choose to ignore is the fact that the decision is a very, very hard one to make - and is usually made for what is deemed the best for all concerned in any given point in their lives.

For a lot of people, their lives consist of hopelessness and a general apathy for themselves and the consequences their actions create in their lives, as well as the lives of others close to them. It is a fact that should not be ignored. Many women realize that they are ill-equipped financially, emotionally, and psychologically to nurture a child into a well rounded, productive member of society. How can anyone say it is a good idea to force them into a lifetime of selfless servitude of another life? It, at the very least, is impractical and in more than a few circumstances outright criminal, considering socioeconomic position factors proportionately into domestic violence, crime rate, child neglect/abuse, drug and alcohol abuse, and divorce.

Is that really the environment we want to subjugate innocents to?

See my journal on the emotional journey of abortion: http://thebot.diaryland.com/010320_59.html

-- Anonymous, April 15, 2001


so I wasn't going to get involved in this, being pro CHOICE and madly in love with a conservative pro lifer, I was just going to lurk around and see what's going on.

but I saw this article today: http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/04/16/robertson.abortion/index.html basically, pat robertson is saying that it's ok, and almost a wise decision, for women in china to be forced to have abortions as a means of population control. no talk about adoption, no talk about the horrors of forced abortions, no talk about murder. because, you see, it's only murder if women CHOOSE to do it. if they're made to do it, or if it's an actually GOVERNMENT POLICY, it's a-ok.

sorry about the caps.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2001


whoops, posted before I was through saying my piece.

about the caps: I'm just a little . . . alarmed? upset? I'm not even sure yet. I probably should have waited to calm down before I posted. but how horrifying is the fact that if, in china, a woman's right to choose is taken away even if it involves an abortion, it's ok to mr. robertson? well, I guess it's not OK, I mean, he's not blessing the activities over there, but I really would appreciate a little indignation on his part.

I mean, the way I see it is that I can't tell another human being what to do. despite what I think about it. I don't have PROOF that it's a human life before the first trimester is up. just my own personal feelings. and lets face it, fetuses kind of look like aliens. really. this isn't about abortion, or about murder, it's about free will and a woman's control over her own body. both points that seem to have been missed by certain coalition founders. he's more concerned about chinese men being able to find wives...

ok. enough from me.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2001


im anti-abortion all the way people who are for abortion make me vomit these people are crook in the head just because a feotus is still 2 young 2 talk it dont mean u should kill them this is murder of the lowest form these babys still have feelings and can feel everything that happens to them abortion should be banned wots wrong with contraception? i say let the pre-born baby speak and ban abortion just rememba adoption is another option

-- Anonymous, August 06, 2001

Heh. People funny.

-- Anonymous, August 07, 2001

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