Copied from the journal; views anyone!!

BEFORE we descend into hysteria, here are some statements that might surprise you.

"The battle of Charleroi did not take place," ran the editorial in the La Meuse, the local paper in this, the Black Country of Belgium.

"The bloody confrontation between the English and the Germans never happened. Our town was not sacked and there was no pile of bodies in our stadium."

Charleroi is a tough town and they wanted these games as proof that they could rise above the cliches of the closed mines and the dole queues.

Of the 400 English fans arrested here, just three were charged. "What town in the world hasn't known a bit of trouble on a Friday or Saturday night?" said the mayor, Jacques van Gompel.

The main trouble seems to have begun because the riot police were determined to hold the England fans in the town square until 20 minutes before kick-off.

Once in, you could not get out. This led to a torrent of supporters rushing towards the stadium, where they were forced to endure lengthy body searches. With time ebbing away, there was panic that they would not get in before kick-off. A barrier was kicked down, the water cannon came out and the media had their pictures.

The camera crews, just as they were in Lens during the last World Cup, were seen as legitimate targets. One England fan walked over to an ITN journalist and punched him squarely in the face before going back to his beer.

Unlike their counterparts in Eindhoven, the bartenders in King Charles Square kept on serving. They were not wealthy enough to turn the English away.

Brussels is not quite this hard and has no need of cash. It was there where most of the English supporters, a third of whom are estimated to be without tickets, gathered before descending on Charleroi. It was the violence in the Belgian capital which led Uefa, rightly, to decide that enough is enough.

For the first time, England's chances of qualification depend not on their footballers but their supporters, to whose battle honours - Turin 1980, Stuttgart 1988, Gothenburg 1992, Marseilles 1998 - you can now add Brussels and Charleroi 2000.

The violence which scarred the first victory over Germany since most of the 800 arrested were born should ensure that the 2006 World Cup bid - which has involved claims of lying (the pretence that there was never an agreement to support Germany's bid in return for their backing when England won the right to stage Euro 96), of cheating (offering cash inducements to Scotland and Wales in order to secure their votes) and vast amounts of money going to waste - is dead in the water.

It is not often that you find yourself agreeing with Uefa, but their statement on Sunday night rang true: "Euro 2000 is a celebration of European football, not an excuse for a small minority of English fans to cause havoc.

"The UK government owes it to everyone concerned to take steps, similar to those in other parts of the European Union, to stop these so-called fans from travelling abroad."

The FA, to their immense credit, have responded well. Adam Crozier, their impressive chief executive, said they would not look for excuses (such as the continued sale of alcohol) for those he called "criminals".

There have been 20 years of hurt caused by English fans to innocent people in Europe and now it has to stop.

If you judged fans as mirroring the countries they come from, the bar owner in Charleroi might believe all Englishmen were shaven-headed, pot-bellied, racist and violent.

The irony is that this government, which more than any other has wrapped itself up in football's colours, inviting Alex Ferguson and Kevin Keegan to Labour Party

Conferences, should have done so little to prevent troublemakers from crossing the Channel, despite warnings from Crozier that legislation was an urgent priority.

And yet, by adding to their statement the warning that England could be expelled from the tournament if there were any repetition of the violence, Uefa had given carte blanche to every hooligan in Europe to descend on Brussels, which already having a substantial Turkish population, staged their emotional victory over Belgium last night.

"There has been no indication from Uefa as to what level of violence would be sufficient to have us withdraw," said Crozier. "But any repetition of what happened in Brussels and Charleroi and we would be out."

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Answers

What was the extent of the violence in Brussels ? 900 English now arrested it may well be an over-reaction but 900 ?I am thinking no smoke without fire.

I agree with the sentiments that UEFA have not helped matters with there knee-jerk warning I only hope the Turks haven't hung around after last night because that would incense fringe supporters to join in the violence.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Just caught the tail end of the Radio 4 12 o`clock news. Seems like the English `fans` are being blamed for the Turks rioting last night. Anyone hear the full bulletin? (:o(

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

English Fans in Los Angeles Riot Lie Rioting broke out on the streets of Los Angeles following the LA Lakers victory in the country's National Basketball Association (NBA) championship series. Police used truncheons and fired rubber bullets to try and disperse the crowds which were celebrating the Lakers win over rivals, the Indiana Pacers. Two police cars were set alight and officers who moved in on motorcycle and horseback found themselves pelted with glass bottles Yobs with guns & that. Appended from Sky news to trivialise our behaviour abroad

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Did I hear this right? A spokesman from UEFA saying that the threat to ban England still stands and the trouble with Turkish fans "wasn't serious". Am I paranoid or is there a conspiracy?? Bring on Mulder and Scully! ;-)

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Galaxy

As you know from our E Mail conversation, I have been trying to keep out of these threads so far, but the Newsreaders script for the R4 12:00 is as follows:

>>>>>>The Mayor of Brussels has blamed English football fans for beginning a "chain reaction" of violence which resulted in more than a thousand people causing damage in the centre of the city last night. The mainly Turkish crowds caused disturbances in two bars after their team's victory. The mayor said they'd been looking for British hooligans<<<<<<<

That conspiracy theory that someone else mentioned may not be as much of a theory as you may imagine.....or am I paranoid.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Thanks ITK, that confirms what I was afraid I had heard. This whole thing is turning into a total nightmare! (:o(

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

A lot of the Turks involved were local Belgian Turks. The mayor therefore 'represents' them as local citizens. The Belgian authorities new that the local turks would cause trouble with England fans. They can't deport Belgian citizens and want to avoid general post-tournamnet problems from a volatile immigrant population, so decision is made to get as many English fans out of the way as possible, on any pretext. That's also why there trying to keep people away from Brussels. 'Fighting' with German fans is a complete red herring. The England/Turkey thing needs to be addressed and faced up to now. The longer feelings fester, the worse it will get.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

A little extreme perhaps but the fan who was stabbed was a known hooligan with a string of convictions. Would it be a good example to other hooligans if the Belgiums refused to treat his injuries, after all you live by the sword, you die by the sword. It may just show that giving the locals a kicking isn't just a bit of fun.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000