UEFA say any repetition of yesterday and England will be thrown out of the tournament. Just watch. The Krauts will go through on default

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2000

Answers

Given what has been reported today, and the fact that the press and television have been whipping this up for weeks....it is hardly surprising that we have come to this point........

Bloody shame but not surprising.

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2000

The violence sickens and disgusts me. However, this statement from FIFA is trying to bolt the stable door after the horse has bolted, and seems highly ill-advised at this juncture in the tournament. It creates a potentially explosive situation where every hooligan in Europe now know they have only to provoke trouble with the all-too-willing English lunies, and they get England ejected! Further trouble is now almost guaranteed.

IMO, I'm afraid the authorities involved in setting up this tournament, AND the British Government, are guilty of a head-in-the-sand approach, inactivity and negligence in dealing with the obvious threats from the hooligan element.

When will our politicians get their heads out of their @rses, and start solving problems rather than dealing with every issue as a political hot potato, with no position being taken until the impact on the opinion polls have been dissected and analysed?

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2000

Looking at this from the perspective of being 6000 miles away, I have to admit to some confusion as to why the British government can't control the activities of these thugs. I keep reading about the wonderful intelligence that is available on all these people, and how violent incidents at domestic games have been largely eliminated, yet they apparently can travel all over Europe at will. As the man said, Britain is an island - there surely has to be some way to control this? It's an embarrassment to all of us, and if we are expelled from the tournament we can hardly complain, can we?

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2000

We all absolutely condemn what has been going on in Belgium. These thugs should never have left our shores. I will need a lot of convincing however that the Belgian police have arrested 800 hooligans, rather than 800 fans guilty of being English.

There are already reports coming out of police bursting into bars and restaurants and arresting all the English, of barristers and other professional people being deported. Now I know full well that there are a contingent of real hooligans who have gone out there purely to cause trouble, but come on! Some of these riots have been caused by this zero tolerance policing. Look at it - Holland - a handful of arrests if any (didn't even see it reported). Belgium - 800 including a majority who have no previous record and aren't on the police computers!

Now, the meeting is held without British representation and the blame laid solidly at the British Government's door. Then a threat is made that unless they ensure there is no repeat we'll be expelled. What can the BG do about the fans when they're already there?? The FA only sold tickets to registered and vetted supporters. Where are the troublemakers getting tickets (if they real hooligans actually attend the matches)?

Is this how Germany will manage to qualify for the next round.

I'm very suspicious of the motives here. Would this be happening if it wasn't for the trouble in Turkey (where it was two England fans who were stabbed to death)? - I don't mean the trouble, I mean the policing - 3000 extra police for England v Germany. Well maybe they've got to do something to justify their presence. I've got no experience of this. When does the celebrating turn into rioting and how?

I'll say again, I absolutely abhor football violence and to be honest, wouldn't travel abroad to watch England for fear of being tarred with the same brush as the mindless few. I just think that when British policing is involved there isn't any real trouble (Euro '96 etc.) yet when European police are involved there are hundreds of arrests and we're all criminals.

I suppose I'm just p@ssed off 'cos I think this could be a German backed move! Maybe I'm just paranoid?

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2000

I guess my real concern in the diatribe I wrote above is that the "Europeans" create the British Thug problem (or a large portion of it), then punish us for it. Similar policing appreared to be the root cause of a lot of the France 1998 trouble. For God's sake convince me I'm wrong!

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2000

Pilgrim mate I think you're being paranoid, and as I said earlier, IMO part of the 'problem' is we still appear to need to be convinced there is a problem.

You ask "what can the BG do about the fans when they're already there?" The answer is very little - however, they most certainly should have initiated the action required well before now when it is indeed too bloody late.

I'm sick and tired of hearing about how difficult it is to solve this problem - that's why Governments of both persuasion's are elected, to solve difficult problems, not to pretend they don't exist or are too difficult to solve.

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2000

Clarky,

Thanks for that, but really you're only answer the government bit. I completely agree that successivr governments have failed to sort the problem out. That only covers the real hooligans. Our Government has always blamed all fans - or at least treated us all like we're all hooligans. The question I'm raising is, how much of this rioting is instrumented provocation to incite a riot. Here's a news item I've just picked up from the web.

[Deported England fans flew into Stansted and claimed they had done nothing wrong. The first contingent of 40 fans were flown into the airport on a Belgium Hercules plane.

Immigration officers at Stansted took their photographs and personal details but did not officially warn them from travelling again to the tournament, fans said.

Matt Jones, a delivery driver from Stoke, said he and two friends had only been in Brussels for two hours when they were arrested at 10pm on Friday.

He said: "I was only on my second pint when a French fan threw a bottle into a crowd of English fans and the trouble kicked off.

"We went to a bar off the main square to get away from it but suddenly a policeman burst in and shot off a canister of tear gas. I was cracked around the back of the head with a truncheon.

"We didn't want any trouble. The last time I was in trouble was when I got detention at school."

Mr Jones said he and the other people in the bar were mostly English but included an American student unconnected with Euro 2000. They were all handcuffed and lined up against the wall for four hours. They were then herded into cells and held for 37 hours with only bottled water and cake to keep them going, he said.

Police in Charleroi arrested more than 500 people on Saturday - 350 of whom were Britons, a spokesman for the British Embassy in Brussels said.

One Briton held in custody is accused of attacking a police officer and is due to appear in court in the town on Wednesday. Most of the arrests were for minor matters such as not having identity documents like passports with them, and the vast majority have been released.]

Now there's a huge difference between 800 arrests for rioting and 50 for rioting and 750 for not having your passport with you when the police picked you up (figures just made up by me as an example). The only injury that's been reported so far is the English fan who was stabbed in the back.

I need a bit more convincing :o))

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2000

Radical I know, but if there is to be any exiting from this competition, maybe it should be off our own bat. How much more effective would it be to have KK, with the full support of the team and the FA behind him, stand up at a press conference and say that he is withdrawing the team from the competition because of the disgraceful behaviour of the hooligan element and the attendant bad publicity. I know it penalizes the majority of genuine law abiding supporters, and will be very demoralizing for the team, but at least the people who we all respect in the sport will be seen to be taking a positive stand.

Rather than being thrown out under a cloud and sent home with our tails between our legs, at least we could exit with some dignity and making a unquestionable anti hooliganism statement. No point in waiting for the Government to do anything. Kneejerk reactions from them will give us legislation as ill thought out and useless as `the Dangerous Dogs Act` (although, it would apply more fittingly to these morons than to the original targets of the Act). Or else it will be spin doctored into a platform for clever sound bites and political point scoring.

It would have to be made clear that we do not accept full responsiblity for the violence, but take it seriously enough to be taking the first radical step towards at least putting our own house in order.

I don`t want us to have to go out of the competion, but much more than that, I dont want us to be thrown out of it.

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2000

Let's face it - kicking off is pretty much the only thing sportswise England has built a reputation for being 'good' at consistently in the past decade or two. Make no mistake, it's a real source of pride for these lads on their hols. And let's not kid ourselves that there's only a tiny handful interested in a bit of a rumble with johnny foreigner, especially if they can safely stick the boot in when someone's on the ground. It's an extremely sad reflection on them, but that's a different story. Yes there's little doubt that some innocents will have been rounded up by Belgian police - though not as many as will bleat their innocence on arriving back in the country. There's a simple solution really, and we have no right whatsoever expecting other countries to do our dirty work for us. Just cut the knackers off anyone who goes to watch England. Cut one knacker off anyone who even thinks about it. Simple as that. I've got a sharp knife if needed.

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2000

Wow! And I thought my plan was radical!(:o0

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2000

Best solution yet Mr Liberal!

I've no problem with banning English fans from this, or future tournaments. (Bit tough on the previously vetted official supporters mind) - As I said earlier I wouldn't go for fear of what might happen anyway. Give 'em fair warning and deport the lot for all I care. I do care very much about England being banned from the tournament; to do this while the tournament is in mid-swing is unbelievable. The Dutch have probably had the worst hooligan record in modern times (I seem to remember about 1000 arrests after their cup final this year) but had this been Holland fans rioting I don't believe UEFA would be discussing this option (and yes I don't need to be told that it wasn't Holland fans rioting - seems to remember the Belgian fans rioting after their win the other night though). I don't think we should withdraw. If they want to ban us let them get on with it, but don't make it easy for them by doing the 'honourable' thing.

I still thing lower profile, sensible policing would diffuse these situations. It might not sort the hard core, but it would stop people who went to the comp just to watch football from being dragged into a confrontation they didn't want.

I do think that if the (British)police were give the power to do what was necessary they could sort this problem almost overnight. But that might be seen as a contravention of human rights and we'd have Europe breathing down our necks if we did that!

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2000

According to the news reports, few, if any of those arrested were known hooligans. This either means that there is a lot of latent violence built up which has bubbled up to the surface in this tourney or there were a lot of innocent folks arrested.

Now, I'm not saying everyone was innocent - far from it. Innocent people don't throw chairs. Let's hope that the videos are clear enough for these morons to be identified. Then I don't mind if the Looney Liberal has his wicked way with them. But make sure you cut them off s-ll--ooo-wwwww-lllll-yyyyyyy.

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2000

Well said Screacher!

The scenes of the chair throwing were appalling. Mind I did notice that someone was throwing them back!

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2000

I know this will only wind up those of you who are hell-bent on defending the rights of 'our lads' to go on holiday and drink lager wherever they choose, but I believe the BEST thing that can happen is if England exit the tournament asap. I have no preference whether it's cos they're booted out or whether the F.A. do the 'honourable' thing - you can't in all honesty expect players and manager to volunteer to leave a major competition while they still have a chance of winning it. However, exiting Euro 2000 would be fairly meaningless if it were an isolated act, and would therefore need follow-up action against OUR citizens by OUR elected government and police. But it would at least show that (a) as a nation, we take responsibility for our share of the problem and (b) the hoolies have directly cost their - and our - nation the chance of winning. I hope I would have the conviction to advocate exactly the same thing if it were the Toon's fans causing mayhem every time they played in Europe. I just thank my stars that I support a team with real fans, unlike the shower of sh#te that follow the nation I just happenned to be born in. I bear no personal sense of embarassment about what is going down, yet again, on the continent. I do however accept a collective responsibility not to sit back, make excuses, point the finger anywhere except at ourselves, and demand other people take on our responsibilities. Chr*st what a pathetic bunch of t@ss$rs the English can be at times. No-one likes us, and we f#ck&ng well should care enough to do something for once, instead of being the spineless and effete w@nk&rs many of our neighbours know us to be. Too harsh ?? I don't think so.

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2000

It occurs to me that my postings are coming over a bit too supportive of the English fans (well hooligans) and I really don't want to give that impression. I think there is a distinction between the National Front type yobs who really have gone there looking for trouble and the average fan. I mean the NF lot seem to turn up at every demo going in this country, turning intended peaceful demos into police confrontations. We really need to sort this lot out in our own country and not export their filth abroad.

I think all Europe knows how easy it is to wind the English supporters up, both in club and international competition. "Lob a bottle at them, watch them go crazy and we can piss ourselves laughing when our police go in and crack their heads".

I was annoyed that Galatasaray escaped any form of censure from UEFA about the behaviour of their fans this year, and I really suspect that the local Turks may have been at the root of some of this trouble. (Wasn't it the same in Marsille?) Now our lot are too stupid to turn the other cheek - it just isn't British is it? So fans who really aren't too different from you and me end up involved (except we're not daft enough to travel to England away matches).

I think I'm annoyed because UEFA have stepped in more than anything. No action against Galatasaray but let's ban England from the competition. It feels like a kangaroo court. No defence representation.

They can take whatever action against the fans they like (as you say cut the goolies off!) but again the innocent suffer with the guilty. Reminds me of when all English clubs were banned from Europe because Liverpool kicked off with the Italians at Heysel - though Maggie was responsible for that decision.

But if they go down this road then we might never get back into competition again. Re-admission would certainly be on a provisional basis and the opposing fans would do everything they could to make sure there was trouble at the next match - another ban.

The precedent would also be set so next time it might be say the Italians who had to be banned, then the Dutch etc. (But not of course the Germans!)

You're right of course that not all those who protest their innocence will be - and not all those people we're calling hooligans will be either.

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2000

All fair points Pilgrim, especially about Galatasaray the past few seasons. Unfortunately I doubt we'll ever be able to rely on european footballing authorities doing the right thing. But that's recisely my point - we shouldn't have to rely on the actions or inactions of others if we accepted our own responsibilities.

Do you know what I'm worried sick about ? Do you realise where England will play their QF - assuming they get their result against Romania ? Heysel Stadium. Against Italy. Think about it. Then think how much 'our lads' in Europe are rubbing their hands with glee at the possibility of total notoriety, even at the expense of their team getting banned. I'm not ashamed to say that I cried my eyes out the night of Heysel. England abroad isn't sport any more I'm afraid. It's an accepted form of warfare. It's a disgrace. I just think we should act before any more lives are lost in the name of a game which I love.

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2000

Again fair points LT, but running away won't solve it.

How many of these loonies are left there anyway, by Monday around 500 will have been deported. UEFA were stupid to make this declaration. It just takes a half a dozen bottles to start another "Riot" and they've declared open season to opposing fans on English supporters.

LT I've seen the scenes of rioting and I wonder how they get started. In Holland the police were mingling with the fans, keeping an eye out for trouble spots. In Belgium it seems the first sign of a policeman was in full riot gear - OK that's unfair I don't actually know that.

Either I have no concept of how large scale the hooligan element is in English football or a lot of ordinary supporters have been labelled rioters. Either could be true - I honestly don't know. What I do know is that we haven't had a serious domestic football hooligan problem for quite some years now.

I struggle to believe that 800 fans went to Belgium to cause trouble and get arrested, BUT I COULD BE WRONG.

As I said earlier I wouldn't travel abroad to support England, not just because I'm worried about the real thugs, but because I think the continentals know how to get English fans to kick off and will do it at every opportinity and I don't want to get caught up it it. When the police go in with batons they don't think "I won't hit him 'cos he's done nothing" They'll clobber everyone and arrest them later for good measure. Let's face it we earned our reputation in the seventies (or in 1415 in the case of the French)and I can't think of a country in Europe where they actually like us as a nation.

I haven't got a solution, just a feeling of complete injustice that the team, the 10,000 "official" supporters, and we armchair supporters, might be punished for things that we can have no control over. In fact it's worse than that. I now expect opposing fans to actively provoke trouble to make sure we're banned. The German supported must be collecting bottles now 'cos it might keep them in the competition!

:o((

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2000

I'm unsure how what I'm suggesting can be construed as 'running away'. I'm all for running right into these w&nk@rs, preferably running right over them in a JCB. But, at the risk of becoming tediously repetitious, we should have the guts do it ourselves, at home.

No blame should be laid at the door of other nations taking sometimes pre-emptive action and deporting the innocent and the guilty by the truckload. No country, including the UK, has any qualms about stopping 'undesirables' from crossing their boundaries. We can have no complaints if in the future legislation changes and that's what other European countries decide to do to us. To ALL of us, by virtue of where we're born. You're a peace-loving English person? Tough sh#t. F*ck off and come back when you've stopped tolerating, sometimes defending the rights of violent psychopaths. The rules changed as soon as England's finest starting waving chairs over their heads. Same rules to apply to other countries with a similar affliction.

I'm not a religious man, but I'm praying that England don't meet Italy at the old Heysel Stadium in the next week or so. Sometimes there's things even more important than football.

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2000

I think they just might kick us out. On another thread I mentioned that if it were up to me I'd bring the team home. I would too. I'm not suggesting that it would cure the problem but something must be done. Anything is worth a try. Giving the scum 12 months inside would be a start. I know they aren't all guilty but I'm afraid there are a lot more guilty than we'd like to think. Anyway, I fancy they'll throw us out if there's anymore trouble and frankly I don't think we'll have an argument if they do. Even if the next game goes off peacefully, you better believe that as soon as we get knocked out of the tournament, the balloon will go up.

I know that you know, it's not just football's problem. It really is society's problem. I see and hear things every single day that at the very least, make me shake my head. There is an underclass in this country and I don't mean that in an economic sense. The lack of respect shown to other people, especially by teenagers is frightening. I have noticed a change for the worse in the last 10 to 15 years and I don't see how it's going to improve, short of sterilising some of the scum to make sure the next generation isn't worse again.

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2000

>>I don't see how it's going to improve, short of sterilising some of the scum to make sure the next generation isn't worse again.

Back to my sharp knife then SMB :O))

Actually I lied. I don't have a sharp one. But I do have a rusty cheese grater in the back of my cupboard. It might take a bit longer, but .....

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2000

Living up here in Scotland I am dreading the papers and the customary jibes that too often follow these occasions in the continuiing saga of "The Englishman Abroad". Grasping at the slightest straw in the past to defend the country of my birth, what do I do this time?, tell the converted that hey-: A cop just ran into a bar, threw tear gas, for no reason whatsoever, apparrently according to inside information there were a few professional people inside, a American student also, that is old hat now, there has got to be a reason, always a reason, and with that comes answers. If the intelligence is as could as the FA and The Govt make out, step forward the undercover supporter, who is in a position to make a statement, produce photographic evidence and at a pinch video evidence from a position of trust and authority, Step forward the Belgian bar owner to say that his establishment was full of English Soccer Fans, noisy, boisterous, causing no trouble until they were set up by heavy handed policing or the initial trouble was caused by supporters of other countries. Step forward the citizens of the country who may have witnessed at first hand the scenes around them, its not going to happen is it?, Everyone knows its going to occur, bury there heads , why is there no official observers present so at least we can admit "We deserve to be kicked out", no more looking for excuses, grasping at straws, relying on the impromptu interview given at the airport by returning fans. On looking for a reason why we behave like this and I am no academic, pretty thick really, but a wee bit street and worldy wise I looked back to my youth, 21 years of age, first run ashore foreign, Gibralter, max 220 of us, 2,000 cloggies off the Karel Doorman, and nearly 900 ham shanks of a US Diving Support Vessel. Not a murmur off the others, our little motley crew, smashed up a couple of bars,were moved on and generally behaved in what I know now was a abysmal way. This type of incident and others like it were repeated all over the world, apart from maybe the States, is it he Island Race Mentality?, or we used to have a empire marked red in the atlas, got nowt noo!!! Ironic we may play Romania on Tuesday, the stirrers will be at it tommorrow, no-one will mention how good this country has been to the orphaned kids out there in the last few years, how this country more than any other has provided food , buildings , medical aid, are we lacking in the pr dept, or is it expected of us, are we a nation within a nation? Looking to our (friends) on the continent especially our nearest and dearest across the water, why we do most things by the book its frustrating to watch at times our truck drivers being held to ransom while the Police stand by and idly watch, would this happen in Dover I ask, nothing to do with football I agree, but has what took place in Charolais anything to do with the game?, no no no, so what is the reason, gotta be a reason, tribal, regional traits appear with our followers as say the Scots and Irish who follow their team as a nation We identify more with the Aussies, Kiwis, Yanks, Norske, Swede Danes and dear old Portugal, shit we canna get on with the Mackems next door, what are we like eh!

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2000

Well put Buff. There's probably not a fella on here, maybe even some of the lasses, who can put their hand up and say they weren't party to a degree of pointless violence in their youth. But it seems that, for some guys, testorone levels never setle down ? Which is arguably why they need a helping hand until they realise how pathetic they're acting - preferably a hand under the nearest Number 42 bus. Not that I'm a supporter of capital punishment you understand .....

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2000

Off the fence, short and sweet after a little soul searching _: Reasons (1) Agree with one writer, total lack of respect,

(2) Too much money!!!Being short is a great leveller, see Dutch/German Hooly element, dismiss Turks, they do it for nastiness.

(3) Well at least I tried.

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2000

I'm sick of these conversations....they're beginning to bore me! I really think that a lot of you want to get out there and see these things with your own eyes instead of just instantly believing what the press and authorities tell you....

1) There are NOT that many hooligans out there....150 max...the rest are being caught up in this..

2) We are NOT the only nation with this problem....the belgian police fired tear gas against their own fans who rioted after they'd WON the first game!! Turkey have been fined by UEFA for trouble after their first game!

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Gav - in response

1) How do you come to your figure of 150 max ? And to what extent does it matter if it's 50, 150 or 850 getting stuck in ? It's always going to be 'a minority'. So therefore we needn't do anything about it, right ?? 2) Agreed - but the question remains, do we take responsibility for our own share of the problem ? Or do we keep stating that, as the problem isn't unique to us, we needn't do anything about it, right ??

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Loony, 150's an educated guess.....even that might be a bit high.....there's only roughly 20 real idiots who go to all NUFC away matches...and no i didn't mean that they should be ignored, i was providing that figure as repudiation of the stupid press figures of however many arrests there were....we're talking about castrating, locking up or removing the liberty from MANY innocent people!!

As for what we do about the real hardcore......it's simple! we catch them, put them up for trial and then lock them up....

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Just to add a little weight to Gav's point that other countries have this element of Hooliganism here is a link for the HOOLIE network. HOOLIE NETSome of the message boards have invitations from the Dutch/Belgian contingent to unite against the Turks.

Bringing the team home would be like admiting that they've got the upper hand. I, like pilgrim, find it difficult to believe that the all of these "fans" set out for trouble, but English abroad have a reputation and will attract nutters from every nation. I would be more concerned if it was the English carrying hammers & knives to matches.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

So why do you reckon it's not happening already ? When I used to travel to many of NUFC's away games I got to know most of our nutters, at least by sight. Without even attempting to come across them, you would invariably see them a few times over the course of your day out. With all the football intelligence that the police claim to have, how are they NOT able to nick more of the headkickers ? More to the point, why have they had such a pathetically low prosecution record over the years ?

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

It's not the actuality that prompts the legislation, it's how things look. Fair enough, Gav, there may not be that many habitual thugs out there, but it certainly looks like it. The authorities would never be able to frame legislation that would be discriminatory enough to separate the no hopers from the 'innocent' bystanders.

Far easier to frame laws that put the onus on us poor buggers to make sure we're not in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Seems obvious to me that if we do end up chucked out, every asshole and his granny will head for the low countries just to get a piece of the action. In fact that would probably be the best that could happen, cos then the FA could just push their heads back in the sand and say 'Nowt to do with us guv, we wasn't even there, we was kicked out'.

If the krauts do go through on default, nothing will convince me otherwise than that it was a put up job from the word go - Herr Blatter clutching at straws. And what happens if all hell breaks out before Tuesday ? Do we play, win maybe, and then get hoyed out ? Do they just hand the game to Roumania without a ball being kicked ? Or what ?

I'd like to think we'd take the 'Damned if we do, damned if we don't' approach, tell them to stick the whole thing, and come home now. No chance of that but.

The very fact they can even consider trying to make a football association responsible for the behaviour of the 'supporters' is beyond me. Doesn't surprise me though, it's by far the easiest way out - short term.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Fair points Bill, though I'd like to think that my own Nana would have more sense. Beseides, she'd never veture as far afield as Belgium :))

So is the long and short of it that nobody is willing (or able) to solve the problem ? I'm not trying to be facetious, but it does appear to be the harsh reality of it. Therefore, we are forced to accept football hooliganism as an inevitable part of life for ever more ?

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

I'm with U on this one Pilgrim. You're not being paranoid mate....800 HOOLIGANS and hardly any names on the "known hooli. list"??..and Why deported?...I thought they had converted spaces as cells and judges sitting waiting to hear cases?.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Conspiracy theorists unite : Germany must be handed next World Cup over England. Therefore England must be disgraced at Euro 2000 by behaviour of its supporters. Therefore English fans are actually covert operatives of the German Fourth Reich. Ably supported by David Mellor, bastard child of Adolf and his lover, former Chancellor Kohl and his very impressive helmut.

Or maybe we have as many violent tossers as the next country, have been labelled rightly or wrongly as the worst, and will do whatever it takes not to appear as ineffectual and spineless as we are actually are. No good shouting at me. I'm just the one holding up the mirror.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Sorry, I am 100% convinced that this is as much about our World Cup bid as anything else. Further, why no English representation at the UEFA meeting? Probably for the same reason as these people think it's legitimate to take people's passports off them before they've been proven to have committed a crime; no understanding of the rule of law. However, England fans wrote their own headlines and I half hope we go out of the competition to spare us more blushes.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

LR,

I'm convinced that I heard yesterday that Man Utd had agreed to play Galatasary in a pre season tournament?!?!

Who comes up with these crazy ideas!!!

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Dougal. Please don't take this personally, but in the immortal words of Gavin Herron esquire re. the value of your "rule of law" - c*ck.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

LR, trust me: you never heard of the European Court of Human Rights or the European Convention on Human Rights, or the fundamental

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

LR, trust me: you never heard of the European Court of Human Rights or the European Convention on Human Rights, or the fundamental EU freedoms (eg. freedom of movement)? These are all laws of the EU and the UK since the enactment of the Human Rights Act.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Loony,

Shouldn't that have been "In the words of the immortal Gavin Herron Esquire"??

I did tell you all that I'm 700 years old and was born in the highlands of scotland didn't I? ;))

Ignore me (as if you don't already!)....I'm having a funny turn ;)

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

What's Kevin Miles got to do with the price of cheese? "Kevin Miles of the England Supporters Association explains that should UEFA expel England from Euro 2000 due to the misbehaviour of a small minority of fans, it would also punish too many innocent people..."

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

In the words of the immoral Gavin Herron Esquire more like ;-)

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Actually Doug, it was me and not Lanky saying that before. And what I was questioning was not that the laws exist - that much is apparent - but rather their efficacy or, more to the point, their utter impotence in the face of the harsh realities. Again, I know as I write this what the law enforcers will say in their own defence - we only implement what the politicians give us, so go knock on Jack Straw's door. He had the power to do something but didn't blah blah.

Call me cynical, but I've heard nothing but the same old excuses and frantic buck-passing trotted out these past 24 hours. Anything but an acceptance of our responsibility to f&ck7n try and DO something. But I think I've worn a rather large hole in the top of my soap box on this, so I think I should go find somewhere else now.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Gav.....we "hummed and harred" over the Munich tourni for a while and in the end decided to go ahead with it so as to not insult Bayern Munich. Galatasary were "drafted in" at the last minute in place of Inter or Juve or someone and United had confimed a long long time ago..well before this current outbreak of anti-English feeling.

MUFC should pull out of this tourni. now that the Turks are in it.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Cheers Douggie..just what the feck are ya on (about) ? :-)

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

LR,

Ahh I see.....still it slapped me in the face as another disaster waiting to happen, I agree you should pull out....I still find it difficult to believe that people in charge of organising these things are so ignorant about these situations....

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Pilgrim made a good point about how easy it is for opposing fans (or even trouble makers within our own supporters) to start things off - just the odd bottle, or insult and that's all the excuse some people need. There are a number of things that don't make life easy or even 'fair', but until we all face up to them, the situation won't get any better:

We have the reputation, due mostly to historic reasons, for having a large hooligan element

This means we'll always be the focus for other fans, whether we like it or not. It's not fair but it's a fact.

WE, in general, have a belligerent attitude under the banner of pride, that makes people think that it's acceptable to counter violence or even just abuse, with violence. This was quite clearly stated by some individuals on here, even though I believe, despite what they said, they'd have more sense. However it does indicate a mind set.

We will continue to be discriminated against until we are deemed safe - and that means unable to be provoked, more willing to avoid trouble than stand up to it, and more willing to integrate rather create an us and them attitude.

None of this is 'fair', and I'm convinced that the vast majority of those arrested did next to nothing. I suspect that the authorities were more worried, and probably quite justifiably, of the Turkish contingent arriving in Brussels today and wanted as many English fans out of the way as possible. The hooligan element may be small, but it's the ease in which they involve others that's the problem, in my opinion.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Yep, ManU should definitely 'pull out'. There again, as the rhythm method isn't all that effective (apparently) we should probably have Fergie sterilised so that he can't spawn any more Nevilles

:))

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

The rhythm method is uselss.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Windy.....I know you're talking about me and Gav....:-)

It's a mind-set thing...you said it.

Up the Empire :)

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

If it were only you and Gav, it wouldn't be an issue ;-)

But seriously, if I asked everyone here what there reactions would be if someone threw a bottle at you, the answers might be revealing. I'm desperately trying not to be holier than though, because I know what the temptation would be, especially if completely pissed and in the false security of being surrounded by fellow supporters.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Why is the hooligan thing seen as particularly English? Two people were murdered by Galatasary supporters but there was no call for them to be thrown out of the UEFA cup or anything else.

On a lighter note, anybody see the report by one of the police in Eindhoven who reckoned that the lack of trouble there was due to the fact that fans had been smoking dope rather than drinking!

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

And do you remember in France 98 when German fans kicked a French Policeman to death, or near death. They weren't chucked out or even threatened with it.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Loony,
I agree with everything you've written on this thread. Unfortunately, you're wasting your breath.
You can see just on this thread why this country has become paralysed by negativity and inaction - it's almost as though we've lost the will to solve difficult problems, or at times to even recognise they exist and that we have any responsbility.
Consider the arguments presented:
1) UEFA's reaction to what is simply the LATEST in a long litany of violence associated with England games, is a German-inspired conspiracy - what utter bollox!
2) there are only a handful/small number of perpetrators, the rest are innocent bystanders who got caught up and were wrongfully arrested/deported. There couldn't possibly be 800 hooligans in Belgium.
3) this is a societal problem and there's nothing we/the FA/the Government can do about it - how totally and utterly depressing!
4) 'Johnny' provokes England fans who are innocently drinking.
5) the media encourages the violence to create the news. 6)we're not the only nation that has this problem. So? How many other nations fans do we see ROUTINELY on the TV, and which other national team is being threatened with expulsion?

SMB said "There is an underclass in this country and I don't mean that in an economic sense. The lack of respect shown to other people, especially by teenagers is frightening. I have noticed a change for the worse in the last 10 to 15 years and I don't see how it's going to improve".
SMB is correct, and the resolution to this particular problem will be extremely complex. However, until we drop the paranoia, and stop making excuses for the perpetrators of this appalling violence we cannot hope to effect solutions.
Frankly, the unwillingness to accept our culpability, and begin to address the problem, is almost as depressing as the violence itself.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

I blame the parents.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Good to see a lively debate going!

Yes, we should do much more in this country to stop yobs going abroad, but that's much harder than it sounds. I frankly don't care about their human rights. We need a special category for Sub-human rights!

It's too easy to label all the arrested fans as hooligans. Some, maybe most, will be, others will be no different from you and me.

I am convinced that the English fans have been targetted in Belgium from day 1 - 3000 extra police for England matches. There were going to be arrests, it was inevitable. It doesn't excuse the riotous behaviour but how bad has this rioting been? The police seem to be containing it. - Arresting everyone in sight and prosecuting or deporting them. There are no reports of serious injuries amongst opposing fans and locals, no reports of mass damage - only one stabbed English supported!

Why then do UEFA think we should be given an ultimatum that amounts to an invite for opposing fans to incite trouble? German fans rioted - nothing, Belgian fans rioted - nothing, Turkish fans got up to something - I don't know what and a fine has apparently been imposed on the Turkish FA ( I only read this here, didn't know about it).

I really care very litle for the fans over there, innocent or guilty. I just think this is an unfair reaction from UEFA - but not in the least surprising. I still suspect very strongly it is German backed!

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Forgive me if I'm being a bit dumb, I missed most of the stuff about the violence due to staying up until 7.00am celebrating the win, but what exactly happened?

I've heard it described as 'the violence', and hooliganism, but I watched the pictures on the news on Sunday night and apart from one picture of someone throwing a chair (at who?) all I saw was people running away from the police or being water-cannoned.

Now this may have been bad editing from our wonderful press, but to me it seems that something happened (possibly a fight between two english 'fans') and the Police waded in and started beating and arresting people. Pure conjecture I know, but if anyone has any more details about what the f#@k was going on exactly I would love to hear it

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Clarky, I don't think anyone is excusing or failing to accept our part in the violence but there are issues that need addressing such as why, during the whole qualifying campaign, there was no trouble although we were in appalling places (for violence) like Bulgaria and Poland. I can vouch for there being no violence at the home qualifiers. These lads are doing what they do every weekend - get bladdered and have a fight. The English can't drink - you could tell from the fact that they were cowardishly throwing chairs rather than hand to hand fighting that they almost certianly weren't hooligans. They were lagered up lads who can't hold their drink and can't back out of a confrontation. Short of banning England fans from all away internationals, I don't see that there's an answer to this sort of thing that can easily be legislated for. Also, a trip to Ibiza, Mallorca or Ayia Napa will possibly embarrass you more than those thugs. Look for why our cities and towns are fight pits every weekend and look at why we feel compelled to do what we do in Ibiza and you'll find the answer to the English disease. I blame the Sun.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Clarky, you gave no response to your point 2 other than to say rather sarcastically that there can't possibly be 800 hooligans in Belgium....do you therefore believe that there are? and how would you know this other than it's what Rupert Murdoch would have you believe?

Also....how come it's England that are only ever shown causing trouble on TV.....I'd expect a man of your intelligence to figure that out for yourself!! English causing trouble abroad is big news and that's what the press wants/shows...

Yes I offered no excuses/ideas for what should be done about the real trouble makers... that's because I am at a loss like everyone else....I do think the perpetrators should be heavily punished but I will not believe that the majority of the people who were involved or arrested over the weekend are not innocent and they must be protected from people who think the answer is to bang them all up/take away their passports etc.....I take this stance because I have seen all too many times innocent people caught up and blamed for trouble at football matches that they took no part in!!

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

What we need is a war to relieve some of the pent up frustration, jingoism is alive and well and living in Britain.

I can't remember kids being so disrespectful of authority when I was a bairn, perhaps the problem stems from kids having kids where they lack the necessary metal for parenting.

I remember seeing a drama on the TV; an old man knocked on someones door to complain about their abusive son and got battered for waking the "father" up. A child learns his traits from his parents and peripheral authoritive figures so the answer is be a better person (dont beat old blokes up).

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Tossers in white tracksuits, driving Escort XR3i's, spitting in the street, having three kids by 20, too much money paid for shit jobs and spending it on strong lager they can't hold and fall over after five pints.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Riot, what riot?

A few daft lads throwing chairs back at coppers who were trying to hose them down then crack their heads. It made good TV thanks to the water cannons but did anyone see any REAl violence? Seen worse in the toon at 11.30 on a Friday. Nobody was hospitalised except for a few lads pushed through plate glass windows by Belgian coppers. No major damage was caused except for the aforementioned windows. Now UEFA are saying lets act before someone gets killed. Very tactful considering they did zilch when the two Leeds fans were murdered.

There was MORE injuries and MORE damage when the Belgians 'rioted' last week but you can't chuck the host nation out of the tournament can you?

Nah, we're being fed an image to allow UEFA to pretend it is 'getting tough' on football violence, tht's all. Don't fall for it.

And as for the 'castrate them unless they can prove their innocence' lobby, you should be ashamed of yourselves. Violent reactionairies like you are part of the very problem you are complaining about. Get real, you can't arrest a man UNTIL he commits a crime. If you think he's likely to, you watch him and nab him as soon as he does. That's the way the British police handle the 'problem' and they don't have to resort to macho posturing like water cannons and baton charges.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Well said Dread.

My solution is to take a British police presence abraod when the team plays within the EU. IMO it would stop the trouble before it started, if in the EU you could get round your political probs. The cost coul be passed onto English fans - it's part of their protection aswell mind, there you go there's the spor of an idea.....

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Dougal,
I'm sorry but read this thread again. It's absolutely littered with excuses for the behaviour of our louts - its everyones fault but ours.
Now you seem to be saying that its OK anyway cos it's just what 'our lads' do every weekend anyway - get bladdered and have a fight. Are you really saying that makes it acceptable behaviour in someone else's country? Abuse the locals and beat em up, smash up their bars and restuarants cos we're the England boys? THAT is precisely the mentality, AND the problem. It's not civilised or acceptable behaviour to anything else but a sick society.

Gav, As you know I'm not over there so I don't really know - any more than you are, BTW. I don't read Murdoch's cr@p either. However, my guess is that there are actually probably at the very a least couple of thousand English morons over there roaming around, getting routinely ratted, casually abusing the local 'johnnies', and generally looking for any excuse for a rumble. If someone get's maimed, well it's all part of the game isn't it.
It makes me sick to the stomach to think we can even contemplate making excuses for these tossers: it makes me ashamed to be English.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Clarky, reread what I wrote - I said that you can hardly be surprised that these lads behave as they do when it's what they do every week. That's not excusing anyone. What I'm saying is, we have to look closer to home and work out what we are generally doing wrong. It's the same syndrome as makes lads behave as they do in Ibiza. It's not something that is easy to legislate for. THAT WAS WHAT I SAYING.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Got to agree with Dougal that this is a very English thing. How many times have you been embarrassed by the English abroad? Its Laddism at its worst. The underclass as SMB put it, seems to have the upperhand and make this sort of behavior the norm rather than the exception. As for the 150 trouble makers Bollocks. At least 10% are up for it anytime and another 80% will follow on a sliding scale depending in the amount of alcohol consumed. Lets face it. Every club has its small band of nutters. Stick em together and let them travel abroad and even Delia Smith couldnt come up with a better recipe.

Plus, guess which program was just aired over here? Yes the one about the Chelsea Head Hunters and that sad tosser of a reporter. Very good scheduling no doubt.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

dougal,
Apologies for misinterpreting your post. I agree entirely with what you are saying.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

People are more likely to get maimed when other countries fans routinely carry knives and hammers to matches!!

I want the REAL trouble makers routed out and punished as much as anyone....whatever their NATIONALITY! that would be a good start to stopping the violence....I know we're ashamed but lets stop thinking and acting as if it's just an english disease when it isn't!

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Ok, agreed. It's not just an English disease. I would even go as far to say that due to historical indiscretions, English fans are discriminated against more often than not. But the underlying attitude of a lot of English abroad doesn't help matters, and the real nutters won't be isolated until the general fan cleans up their act.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Sorry, Gav. Gotta disagree with you. I'll admit that the people carrying knives etc seem to crawl from every corner of the globe but if you're looking for people who will be unable to hold their drink and get into a fight at the drop of a hat, it's the English. Our really hoolies are the same as anyone else's. The lads who start getting bladdered and chucking chairs are English. I honestly believe we did keep the hard hoolies at home and that's why there were almost no real injuries. The rest were just lads from any pub in England. That's what's disturbing.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

No worriesm, Clarky - just horrified that my posting might be interpreted as excusing.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

It's not simply a problem with the English: it's role-playing.

Cast Iron no-nonsense, satisfy anyone example:

1) Lansdowne Road every other year 5 (now 6) Nations rugby. English and Irish mixing together with huge amounts of beer (trust me!) and there is nothing but mutual respect and terrible jokes made at one another's expense. Is rugby a game with enthusiasm, diehard supporters and passion? Bloody right it is!

2) Lansdowne Road 1994(5?) England International football 'friendly'. Seats ripped up and hurled at Irish supporters, Garda wading in with riot-sticks, animals on the rampage overturning cars and smashing shop fronts. Same country, same venue, same nations, different game.

The point is that in Rugby you are socialised towards believing that everyone is part of one big family and love of the game is paramount (that's one of the reasons South Africa simply didn't fit during Apartheid). Sadly, there is no training in how to support football: we are taught to love our own club and get deeply upset when members of our support show us up as at Bradford City or Wimbledon, but this is pride in Newcastle United, not football itself.

Look at the huge difference between the way NUFC European excursions are conducted and those of Chelsea and Leeds. Why is it always the same clubs being 'picked on' by foreign police forces? You know the answer to that as well as I do! I've named 2 clubs that we all know have supporters who pride themselves on having a reputation for hardness. It's all bluff and bollocks of course, they are no harder than any other average crowd of English males, but the illusion exists for their supporters that pulling on a Leeds or Chelsea shirt makes you hard.

Exactly the same problem with Ingerlund. There is no example that we are brought up to follow as to how you should seek to behave, to be ambassadors for your country and show respect for your sport and all your fellow human beings who love the game as passionately as we do. Into this vacuum have stepped the hooligans and Hey Presto we have an image of what it means to be and England fan: belligerent, drunk, foul-mouthed, obnoxious to Johnny Foreigner. That's the problem in a nutshell. You have to change what it means to be an England supporter. The Scots did it. They used to be every bit as evil as us, but now they pride themselves on being known as great supporters. I would contend that 90% of the people throwing chairs are idiots who think that that is what they ought to be doing; after all, they're Ingerlund fans, it's expected isn't it? Get the sad little twats back to St Albans and they'll be nice as pie, they're just bad actors in a farce.

Don't tell me the English aren't capable of this: we already are in Rugby Union as I have already illustrated. We managed to change the idea that racist abuse is acceptable at football matches and next season they are supposed to be starting on needless foul language (I reserve the right to shout 'Oh fucking arseholes!' when we leak a soft goal). This has to be dealt with. It's not impossible. It's not riot police making Rugby fans capable of intermingling peacefully, it's attitude.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

I blame the makems

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Sorry, Softie, there is a massive difference in the people who go to rugby and those who go to football. There may well be some overlap but the overlapping bit of the Venn diagram isn't the people who are in Belgium at the moment. And there are increasing numbers of rugby games where there is trouble - I think Hull were at it this season (??). I'm not saying that a better class of people do rugby - let's face it, there are rumours about what goes on in rugby club bars (although I saw that London rugby team in the pub in the central station a few weeks ago in Toon (a Makem pointed them out to me, I'd have been none the wiser) and they were impeccably behaved). The "go on the hoy in Mallorca for a fortnight and make sure you wear your footy shirt every day you're away on holiday posse" are almost exclusively English.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

I can't continue on this thread....it's starting to tire me :))

A lot of people very obviously believe their views passionately and I doubt we're gonna change each others minds.....

A lot of us are also guilty of broad generalisations as well when stating our beliefs on this thread....

One thing has changed for me since this morning.....I now see that England are pretty much in a lose/lose situation over there and I don't care if they're brought home or forced home....

I'm off to a happier thread....maybe I'll start another sex one ;))

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Dougal, I was talking about Internationals for Rugby Union, the incident at Hull was Rugby League and was so shocking because it's virtually unheard of.

I don't accept that because different people go to Rugby matches than Football that it can't work. That's to suggest that being working class means that you are born scum and you won't accept that anymore than I will. We are all responsible for our own behaviour; socio- economic class has nothing to do with it.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Softie - I hope I didn't give you the impression that I was being a snob about this. Football is a much broader church than rugby and when you get a fairer cross section of fans going to rugby internationals, I'll be satisfied that the model is potentially transportable. As it is, rugby fans go to far fewer countries (and I can't see even footy fans kicking off in South Africa/New Zealand or Australia) and it's a far less global sport. However, the Lansdowne Road thing is interesting and your point about Chelsea and Leeds is very valid.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Actually I disagreed with the point about Leeds and Chelsea...sorry I know I said I'd get off this thread :))

NUFC last year at Rome suffered at the hands of the police and also had missiles thrown at them (didn't make the papers is all!)....also had trouble in Zagreb and Belgrade that didn't make the papers...

I for one dread the day we are drawn out of a hat against any Turkish side....

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Fair enough Dougal, but are they all toffs from Edinburgh in the Tartan Army or do Glaswegians not follow football anymore ;-)

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Well, they get such little international experience....((-:

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Blah, blah blah blah BLAH! I hope I don't insult anyone on this thread but all I've read - in the papers and (to a lesser extent) on this BBS is just a load of talk. Yes, a few people were hurt on Saturday and the whole thing must have been very unpleasant. Yes there are some trouble makers out there - we've all met some of them. But, frankly, until I see evidence of a real riot (ie one similar to Los Angeles, deserving emergency measures) or until the government sets up effective barriers to English yobs going abroad - then ALL WE HAVE IS A FORUM WHERE ANYONE WHO WANTS TO PUSH THEIR OWN LITTLE HOBBYHORSE - social reforms, ritual mindsets, Englishmen bad Europeans good - HAVE GUARANTEED COLUMN SPACE OR AIR TIME.

Less than 5 percent of what is written and discussed is at all constructive. The yobs are our enemies, don't make victims or enemies of anyone else.

Si

Remember the Brixton bomber? Just one evil man - not a social phenomenon.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Thank you for that constructive interjection Si, and you'd rather we talked about what exactly? Perhaps we should run topics of conversation by you first in future to ensure that they aren't too parochial for your liking?

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Now look what you've made me do! I'll have to go all the way over there to get my teddy again...sorry, it's this poxy heat! ;-)

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

OOps Si. I think you might have insulted a few people there.;-)

Problem with the subject matter is it can get very personal. But especially in this case it's even more valid to voice opinions, rather than brush things under the carpet. OK it might seem sanctimonious sometimes, but it's better than pretending there isn't a problem.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Well, in fairness, Si, if you're going to take that attitude, why have a forum at all? I mean our talk about whether we should flog Marcelino is all just talk cos Bobby and the board are going to do what they are going to do. And this hoolie thing is by far the biggest bit of news there is at the moment. However, I'm just about done on the subject, too.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Softie's right it's this unbearable heat that has everyone on edge today! It is getting to the point where those of us in Non-Air conditioned offices will be forced to work from the Car!

Si makes a valid point and is normally the way a thread finishes on here. The toss is argued for about 80-100 posts then someone comes along and summarises, then that's it. But hey what else could we do...work?!

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Softie, Don't get uptight. I can tell I've annoyed you, and for that I'm sorry. Perhaps I should rephrase what I was trying to say. I personally am annoyed that a lot of people in the press and elsewhere use unpleasant or tragic occurances for their own political (or sometimes social) agendas. However, the police in Belgium were just 'reacting' to what they saw as a riot, a lot of the England fans were 'reacting' to abuse/chair throwing/ strongarm tactics from the police. A few people lose their heads, others around react to that. It's understandable, it happens often enough. I don't say we should ignore it or not discuss it - just don't go looking for underlying social/political or racial phenomena where there isn't any need.

And as for your 'parochial' comment, I'll ignore that - I don't think that crack was typical of you.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

I'm not offended.... :))

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Sorry Si, don't know if you saw my second posting before answering, but I broke the first rule of bbsing in that I sent a response before thinking about it first. In mitigation, my office is in a converted attic and is hot enough to boil a monkey's bum, let alone a cynical humanist NUFC supporter. I apologise for the parochial comment, I wish I hadn't said it and don't think I would have done if I wasn't stewing slowly to death on a cloth-covered chair in an office full of women which prevents me from doing the sensible thing and working in just my underpants. Please accept my humble apologies, I promise not to do it again :-(

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

Don't worry about it softie...I insult people all the time and don't expect them to get upset by it....we're all friends on here and can let off a bit of steam every now and again without causing offence surely?

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

That's fine Softie. My office is slowly turning my brain into mush aswell. I'm also working in an office with some woman, who in this heat, are wearing clothes which make me wish I was 'doing the sensible thing' and 'working' in nothing at all.;-)

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

The receptionist here said she had no objections to the lads wearing shorts (I nearly said coming in shorts but Gav is around!). So I said I had no objection to her wearing a bra tomorrow.

The weather forecast is a bit cooler tomorrow so no need for bollock bathing straight after work then!!

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

I'll definitely be coming to work in shorts tomorrow....it's almost unbearable over here!!

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000

There's a lot been said on here and I applogise if I've missed some of it - either on this thread or others. However, I'm concerned about UEFA's announcement that we could be chucked oot if the English fans don't behave. They should have said it before the tourney started without reference to any nation, or just kept their gobs shut. There's no excuse for the behaviour of the yobs and yet again, the authorities on both sides of the channel have missed their opportunities to do something.

IMHO, the Belgians panicked, simply by arresting anybody with an English accent. Just imagine if wor own member of Team England - Dougal - had been there. As we aal knaa, she doesn't hoy chairs aboot (she just falls off them). But oh so easy to be arrested whether directly or indirectly involved. Having arrested the yobs, they then let them go, sending them straight back to the UK without charge, thus missing any opportunity to convict them and hence give something for the UK Government to withold their passports for future matches.

By many accounts, the Belgian authorities were indiscriminate in who they arrested. Had they had any evidence, then more than a handful would have seen the inside of the Belgian courts. Or was it simply that they couldn't be @rsed to press charges?

If we are going to defeat this unwanted minority, then we must have a concerted, organised effort from all countries involved. Forget nationalistic predjudices. Forget that sensationalist journalism sells newspapers. Forget the fact that Herman (sorry, our European neighbours in Germany) might just have an ulterior motive in seeing England fans in yet more trouble. This is not only an English problem. OK - we are worse than others. But you can't defeat it without having a concerted effort from all countries involved and IMHO UEFA and the Belgian authorities should have seen it coming and had better plans to deal with it.

This is in no way an excuse for the behaviour of the minority. I'd bet that the incidents happened in areas which could easily have been predicted. Newcastle has it's Bigg Market. Barcelona has Los Ramblas. Brussels has the Grand Place and Charleroi has it's town square. Surely some strategically placed CCTV cameras could have picked out the trouble makers and the evidence used to convict those involved instead of simply shipping them out on the first available military transport plane.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2000