According to news sites this morning 2 english hooligans have been denied access to the Netherlands on the basis of their names matching those of known hooligans. Isn't this a bit of a crude method of identifying troublemakers, how many people travelling to Euro 2000 will share the same name?

Surely there is a better way of doing this, taking away their pasports, tattoing "idiot" on their foreheads or something?

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

Answers

Yeah but that would be illegal if they haven't any convictions!

Big brother is already big enough without us wanting him to have yet more powers to make mistakes....

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

Ya can't take away passports...even for bona-fida "convicted" thugs. I'm with Gav on this one.

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

OK the passport comment was a bit flippant but how about the tattoo?

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

Tattoo is fine.... ;))

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

So what would be wrong with introducing legislation which basically said 'Under these circumstances, you will have your passport confiscated' ? I'd go along with that.

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

Instead of registering regular supporters, we could just register the hooligans. Part of the sentence is that they have to report in person to a particular place (Anthrax Island or some such) whenever an England game is in progress.

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

How about only issuing tickets to registered England Football Fans, police escort to and from games, locked hotel rooms with a 9.00pm curfew, beer vouchers to ensure that no one person can have more than 2 pints of pissy-weak hotel lager, no standing at games, swearing = ejection, singing to be conducted from approved song sheets. Oh and how about electric fences all around the pitch side?

I assure each and every one of you, that there will be some sort of scuffle, agro, whatever and TV crews will be there to pick up the coverage - top story on every UK news channel and front page of the papers. It is a sure thing.

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

The thing is, the names of the Chelsea supporters who were put into a warehouse before the Marseilles game will all on records and they will be turned back as well. My passport has run out and the EMC write to me weekly saying that unless I get it renewed, they'll ban me from England games.

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

Even home games??? Bit harsh, although Wombleree is a compeletely foreign state - or perhaps just "a complete state" would be better.

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

Pit Bull...It's all well and good suggestiong that we introduce a law that gives the courts the right to stop a man's free travel on the back of a football related crime (whatever that is) but it's too easy to pick up a conviction for a "football related" crime when U had nothing to do with any violence in the first place. A few years ago hundreds of Man Utd fans were rounded up in Turkey and posted home....no clothes, money, passports, house keys etc....some even left wives and kids at the hotel...and SOME poor blokes weren't even football fans...just wrong place at the wrong time. Ya can't punish these folf for bad policing abroad.

Bad policing, poor segregation, unfair treatment...all leads to flare ups that most of us in here could / (have) found ourselves in....even to the point of purely defending ourselves...and then we have some jummped up twat of a magistrate whose sole job is to dish out penalty points for drivers and licences for brewers, seeing us a a 100% FOOTBALL HOOLIGAN and taking our passports away. Nah mate....freedom of movement and speech and all that. Power to the People.

Wolfie! :-)

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

>>>>>>>even to the point of purely defending ourselves<<<<<<

That no doubt from the Roy Keane school of self defence.......get in your defence before they get in their attack......"it wasn't my fault Mr Magsitrate....I really believe that the frankfurter sausage he had on his fork was a cosh and he was going to attack me with it, - possibly, well maybe, well he could have done, possibly sometime that night, alright that week, well go on the....sometime that century"

Newton Heath supporters NEVER cause any trouble when they travel abroad do they.....course not....pure as the driven snow officer....and if you don't believe me, ask that nice Mr Mellor on Radio 5......he believed us........mind you, he also believes you can knit fog!

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

I'm with LR on this one....nothing wrong with defending yourself...

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

You seemed to miss my piont entirely ITK...nothing new there mind.

Wait till you're caught up....yes!! caught up, in something you have NO control over.You'll see yer arse then pal that's a fact.

Did ya see the Arsenal / Galatasary shit in Sweden on the telly? Did ya see how many times "innocent" bystanders and football fans were attacked by Galatasary fans?.I'll tell ya this...ANY fucker whacks me and they get it back....does that make me liable for cofiscation of my passport if I wanna take my missus and kids to Disney World the next time a World Cup is on???? Think about it will ya and FER FUX SAKE, don't make this into a Man Utd thing. Jesus...I use a well documented occurance as an example and you turn it into another ABU statement!!

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

The thing about the Arse vs Galatasary thing is one of the clips the tv always shows - the one where the Arse hooligan tries to throw a bike at someone out of camera shot...fails miserably to even lift the thing, never mind throw it.

Although I know some were properly hurt, most of it looked like handbags at dawn. Seen worse outside Ritzies...

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

The trukish fella with the machete was a different story mind . I never agree with Lr , but succumb this time ... some are guilty some aren't and hae to pay the price .. a lot of people think you're a hoolie just for watching your team abroad , so being branded and sent back definitely warrants your passport confiscated , NOT . I also agree with Bob re the 'there will be documented trouble ' thought .. as usual i would say tho , if you want to avoid the bother you can . You divvent have to stand in the fountain and chant Toon Toon .. or stand outside a bar chanting Inger lund Inger lund do ya ? Those who choose to know the risks and are often too pissed to see their sensible side kick in ( this is no excuse however ) .. but you could walk round the corner and quietly play pool or something eh ? Nae smoke without fire i say .

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

However, the press and authorities NEVER give priase where it's due. For example, last time Arsenal were in Copenhagan for a Euro bash, the Copenhagan authorities wrote to Arsenal and the FA praising the Arsenal fans for just going for a good time. Likewise, when the Mancs wre in Barca last year, they were praised by the local press (along the lines of "The Manchester people are ugly but are also good people"). The truth of the matter is that, if the FA could ban English fans from travelling abroad to away games, they would. Most clubs have a similar squeamishness about their fans abroad. Let's face it, you never hear about summer friendlies from official sources unless the club can make major money out of it and the cost is such that almost no one (INCLUDING HOOLIES) can afford to go.

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

LR is 100% right. If a person has attended football matches on a regular basis (especially away matches) over a number of years (not just the last few years) and NOT found themselves in some sort of bother then they are incredibly lucky. One daft example. At Sheffield Utd a few years back a group of sheffield supporters were punching (and running) anything that resembled a Geordie (including kids). It was all hit and run over in seconds. Sorry but Mrs Ginga didn't bring her son up to walk away from his own kind (especially kids) being abused like that. Should I have "idiot" tatooed on my forehead and be banned from following my country abroad? In my mind if I'd walked away from it I should have had "coward" tatooed on my forehead. If I had been arrested because I'd been annoyed at the sight of a 12 year old kid being punched in the face because he was walking down the pavement then I would have been branded a hooligan.

I NEVER abuse any one and give EVERYONE respect. But I want that respect back. Like LR, if anyone hits me then I'll give it back if possible. If a german calls me an English C**t then I'll abuse him back and if a Tunisian throws a brick at me then I'll throw it back at him.

I have no time for people who enjoy hurting other people. But I live in the real world and understand that from time to time trouble does occur and many many times the victim is arrested and lumped in as a hooligan with the rest.

After the semi with Sheffied a few years back the police broke a few heads in Witherspoons for nout. It was well publicised, everyone thinks it was out of order and in no way brands the victims as being hooligans. Yet if this happens in Holland or Belguim over the next few weeks the victims will be arrested as hooligans and if the justice of some is carried out they will have "idiot" tatooed on their forehead.

Any single Englishman at the tournament even of the most sensible disposition could be arrested - simply for being at the wrong place at the wrong time. If you can't see that and still want them to be tattooed and have their passports confiscated then I question your experience of real life.

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

Ginga...that's EXACTLY what a lot of these do-ggoders don't have...experience of life. You can not make sweeping judgements wrt to every man arrested or seen in the papers "acting" like a hoolie...unless you've been there and seen the "build-up".

Ok...you can walk-away most of the times but come on fellas...there is something DEFFO in the "breeding" of Englishmen, Scotsman, Welshmewn and Irishmen to a degree that says..."no..I will not walk away..these are my colours and my team". It's true...we are seen like this the world over cos it's true. How d'ya think the British Empire was formed :-) THE THIN RED LINE

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

Ginga and LR,

Of course you're quite right that people caught up in violence through being in the wrong place, defending themselves or others do not deserve to be treated as hooligans.

There are certain members of society who orchestrate and enjoy violence and it is these people who should be prevented from doing so. My original posting was simply questioning whether giving customs officials a list of names was the best way of doing that, or would that prevent people who just had the wrong name from entering a country.

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

Tom...I say this..and it may well anger people....but even CONVICTED and PROVEN hooligans should not have their passports taken away. Fer Fux sake....U can get a HOOLIGAN conviction for throwing a paper areoplane.....that's true....yet convicted rapists and war criminals can come and go.

We make TOO much fuss over our Hoolies...as it's been said before on here..most of it is handbag stuff...super hyped by the media.

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

Fair enough, so are you suggesting preventing trouble should just be left to the police at the scene on the day. It may just be handbags 99.9% of the time but people do get killed and suffer serious injuries. How do you deal with the hardcore thugs, or do you just not bother.

PS Forget about the passport, tattoo stuff I was just being flippant.

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

The tatto thing I ignored...but not the passport suggestion...cos there is serious thought going into this...and IMHO it's wrong.

How do U stop them...the 1% mindless hoolies?..I dunno. How do we stop persistent drink drivers, burglars, tax evasers (is that a word)? etc etc. If ya catch someone killing someone else at a football game...lock 'em up. If ya catch someone causing affray give 'em the MAXIMUM sentence. Crime at football should be policed the same as any crime.

The only way to crack these "hard" nuts is under-cover surveillance etc...get the evidence and proof etc and jail 'em. If not jail at least BOOT CAMP.

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

To your question "should trouble be left to the police on the day"

YES..most certainly. These twatty politicians who have never been penned inside a paddock, or made to wait 45 mins after a game has ended before being let out are making assumptions that someone MAY cause trouble abroad...and as such they want to stop them travelling.

We'll be arresting scousers next JUST IN CASE they stab an old granny and rob her.......hang on!..what a top-idea :-)

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

I have to say that I agree with you on most points (the passport question included).

What saddens me is (as Bobby said earlier) that english fans will be involved in trouble in Euro 2000, and likely the vast majority involved will be caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. I also agree that the hoolie problem is overblown (and thus contributed to) by our media. Fans and police from other countries expect us to cause trouble and either get their 'retaliation' in first, or want to show how hard they are. Scottish and Irish fans get just as drunk as ours, Belgian fans in Copenhagen last weekend for the friendly here were much more obviously drunk and loud than any of the Arsenal I saw 2 weeks before, but the trouble doesn't start because its not expected to.

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

How d'ya think the British Empire was formed :-) THE THIN RED LINE

Aye populated by the Scots and the Welsh as much as the English...there are plenty scary B*st*rds around that cling to their colours, Turks & Catalans amongst them.

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

I don't know what seems to be the problem here. If you're a convicted thug then as a matter of preservation you're right to travel to watch your team should be denied. Watching your team play away/abroad is a privelege not a right and should be treated as such. Driving is a privelege and if you're caught doing something you shouldn't then that is removed. It really is very simple. Some states in the US have a three strike rule, that is if you are arrested for three crimes (felonies) then on the third you get the max penalty. If you don't want to get arrested for being a thug don't be a thug, simple. You get caught once, it may be a case of wrong place wrong time, a second time, questionable, a third time you should be toast. No mercy lock em up toss the key. Where are my rights to travel without the stress that I am going to get arrested for a non crime. Who will look after my rights as a football fan, not a thug.

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

Yer right.....and the Turks and Basques in particular are as proud as we are....English, Welsh, Jocks and Irish...but put 200 "Brits" against 200 Turks on a level playing field and I know who'd end up running :-)

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

Surely it couldn't cause problems preventing these ars*holes who are already known as thugs, travelling to away games. Ok, they'd have had to have had a go at least once to have been found out, but once having been found out, they should then be shown in no uncertain terms that they won't be tolerated.

It looks as if the only sure way would be to stop supporters going to any foreign away games, but there's no way that would be tried.

I think anybody who wants to support their club at foreign grounds is just going to have to accept the fact that it's a lot easier for the cops to tar the whole lot with the same brush, rather than to try to separate the real troublemakers from the unlucky ones. Just a sad fact of the sick times we're living in.

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

Syme...I totally disagree. Freedom of movement should never be hindered. This is NOT a privilage as you suggets. You take away someone's driving license because that's the law. Taking away passports is NOT the law of this land. It's bollox that this shopuld even be considered.

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

oh hell,are we already at the 200 Brits could whack 200 Turks.stage! That is exactly the kind of attitude that has caused immeasurable deaths in wars and riots!So LR doesn't think that known hooligans should be prevented from travelling to Football tournaments eh? I suppose he would prefer to see trouble rather than temporarily suspend the travelling rights of known troublemakers!--ok lets look at it from a different point of view--why not have the British authorities notify their foreign counterparts of the troublemaker's name,description,known associates in football violence,picture AND passport details so that the foreign authorities can REFUSE THEM ADMITTANCE totheir country until after the tournament ends.No breach of civil rights,merely the foreign countries excercising their discretion!-Yes?

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

LR - quite obviously freedom of movement IS a priviledge, which is why to leave these Isles (RoI excluded) you have to apply for a pass to allow you to do so (passport), and some nations require Visas to regulate entry and exit.

The vast majority of those who follow football home and abroad are great lads who are happy to drink 'till they fall over and have a great time, win, lose or draw. However, when bother starts the police can only see the colour of your shirt - the time they ask you for an identity card which states your personal philosophies is a bit far off.

I have no problem in the police singling out known trouble makers (i.e. those who have been clearly identified as starting trouble - don't pretend you can't do this, 'cos you can...has and is being done) and barring them from travelling: some will get there anyway, by fair means or foul but we should at least try to ensure violent types are kept away.

Self-defence is trickier. We all like to think that we'd stand up and be counted if friends and family and loved ones are endangered. Although I believe it was meant flippantly, LR's Brits vs Turks remark is singularly unhelpful - besides, they kicked our arse at Gallipoli.

The problem with football violence is that it is easy to label - any bother at or near or around football. It's no different to most of the trouble most have seen at chucking out time down the Bigg Market.

I earnestly hope there is no trouble, but there will be...without a shadow of a doubt. It saddens me, but there you go.

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

Pit Bull..how can 50,000 Reds turn Barcelona into one big party...and how can 15,000 Reds do the same at Munich? Beer and music was laid on....the "enemy" were about but there was no trouble. These are two recent examples from last season of our trips in Europe...but put them alongside Porto and Galatasary away where the police in Portugal shot at United fans for nothing, and the Turkish OB deported ANYONE for nothing and you get a very confused football fan :-(

I have a MAJOR problem with this "freedom of movement " thing....last season away at Derby, I left this pub and wished to go into the city centre before I went to the game. The Derby OB stopped me heading the way I wanted to and "forced" me 180' the other way. I was with one other bloke...no colours...no "bovver" boots and NO intent, yet had I needed to get to a bank or even to a friend's house in Derby I could not have done so. I actually stood and argued my point fer 10 mins until my main man Sam reminded me what I had in my pocket:-)

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

Alan...the discussion moved slightly towards patriotism and the Turks and Northern Spanish were used as an example...not bu me at first. I was using their attitude and our attitude as one of the reasons why so many Englishmen get involved in trouble....not just at football but on a Saturday night too...that sort of thing. I used the 200 Turks v's 200 English as further examples of my belief that we are slightly different than many other races around the world.

Stick your head in the sand if you must and "call" my attitude, but ask yourself if those 500 English fans fighting the Tunisians or Moroccans in Marseilles were all 100% bona-fida nut job hoolies. I'd say no. What say you?

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

OI..BOLLOX Alan..I DID NOT say we should prevent them from travelling to football tounis. I said we can't take their passports of them. Entirely different. So how can a guy take his kids to Disney instead of going to Holland if the "authorities" have his passport......for example?? Now, your suggetsion that we inform the overseas authorities that (x) Hoolie is on his way is much much better. Leave it down to them to INVITE who they want.

Don't feckin' wind me up with the shit that I'd rather see violence. Having seen it first hand many times I know I don't wanna see it again.

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

LR,
It might not be coming across as such, but I'm sort of on your side. I agree, without the relevant legislation, nobody should have their passport confiscated, but if it would help cut down known sikkos being able to screw things for everybody, I'd give it a try, at least until it was obvious whether or not it was working.

As for forcing you to go in some direction you'd rather not go, I think it's just part of the 'tar-them-all-with-the-same-brush' tactics. It's a hell of a lot easier to implement.

Again, I don't agree with them doing it, because for one thing it makes people even more anti cops. But, bad as they might be, I reckon we'd be well and truly in the kak if they weren't there. But that's a different argument.

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

Perhaps we could interview the lot of them and come to a conclusion, Lancy?

As for your individual rights...all rights must be tempered with responsibility. For instance, I was mightily peed off after Watford away that the whole town closed down the bars to away fans, and even shut pubs completely. Beforehand there was nothing but the usual excellent atmosphere. On reflection I could see the reasoning behind such an action, but I'm still annoyed.

Besides which, there's more than several country miles between being stopped entering a pub, or being prevented from going to the bank with preventing known violent people, with previous and established history of violence at, near football games attempting to travel to foreign venues during International tournaments.

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

PB..I'm not anti OB..I like the police in general. I'm a Tory voter and ex RN....some things just get my goat....do-gooders...car drivers...scousers...those sort of twats :-)

LR

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

Booby..yes..there is a difference between stopping me walking into an English City to go fetch the Queen's Shilling and a known hoolie...but we are talking about ANYONE with a football related offence...and that's includes the guy who threw that paper aeroplan a few months back. Bad bastard him eh? :-)

How do we distinguish levels of "naughtiness" that will filter the bad apples from the not so bad apples. And what happens during World Cup MONTH if a KNOWN AND CONVICTED hoolie has to get abroad for a genuine reason? Anyway...this known and convicted hoolie argument is shite anyway. Are we saying that ALL known and convicted hoolies will ALWAYS be hoolies. Is Mike Tyson still a rapist?....is Lester Piggot still a Tax Dodger? Can ANYONE see what the fuck I mean???

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

Lr. I agree with your basic principle that passports should not be confiscated, my issue is with the infringment on my rights. I have the right to do what and where I please, within the realms of the law, correct. These thugs are going to take that right away. We are all lovers of football here, no such a fan of hooliganisim. This is a disease in which too many people get caught up, sure it's a rush when it's going on around you, but what about the victims of it. We never here about those do we? Restrict the movement of known thugs, keep a watchfull eye on everyone else, those who are caught. Give 'em the max penalty, ban them from all grounds. Make them wear special tags that identify them as such. If these idiots want to fight in the name of their country or local team they can do it seven days a week without having to wear a shirt. How many people would want to be labeled a football hooligan every single day. Not many I bet.

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

B*ll*x I say. Chop 'em off. Well, at least for anyone convicted of football hooliganism. That should lower the testosterone level and render them as meek as a little lamb.

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2000

LR,
I think the real problem is that the legislation for dealing with anti social behaviour is always dragged along behind the events, and the do gooder legislators appear to be so shit scared of inadvertently punishing this poor innocent bugger who keeps ending up in the wrong place at the wrong time, that the laws are never anywhere near strict enough and consequently the real sickos quite often get away with murder.

Nobody will convince me that the likes of hindley and brady shouldn't have been 'terminated with extreme prejudice' for what they did, and I'm not saying footy sikkos should be lumped in with the likes of those, although those murdering turkish tw*ts should be.

The point I'm trying to make is that I see nothing wrong at all with trying to prevent by whatever means, a*seholes who repeatedly can't, for whatever reason, be trusted to handle themselves in a way that's acceptible to the vast majority of the rest of us. Even if they come to some harm as a result of the punishment. I stress 'repeatedly' though.

The hard part is combining that approach with the way it would be enforced. As long as the enforcement is in the hands of individuals who are no different, really, from the rest of us, there'll be 'opportunities for error'. But what are the alternatives ?

-- Anonymous, June 09, 2000

Actual I liked an artile I read that the Belgiums are releasing prisoners to go home so that they have room in the gaols for hooligans.

Made me luagh.

-- Anonymous, June 09, 2000

LR--actually I seem to be in agreement with you. Only for the most heinous offences or constant repeat violent behaviour should a persons passport be taken away,BUT,stamping passports 'this person is a known trouble maker' might help! BTW LR,a Man U fan,and a tory-how do you sleep at nights!

-- Anonymous, June 10, 2000

Why not just have fight tournaments and remove the whole thing from football.

Organised battles in pub car parks with ambulances at the ready, would make great TV. You could even support your favourite HOOLIE team. I bet the Turks are hair - pulling scrabbers.

-- Anonymous, June 12, 2000