From Gregor:

I've let this question set [or fester] for a day on EZboard. No answers [although Maggie MM said that she would like to see an answer]; OK here is the post from the scriptures written by Thomas [presumably the brother of Christ; also the twin]:

Saying added to the original collection at a later date:] 114 Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

OK, folks do you have an opinion about what this scripture means. This is verse 114 from Thomas, added later, but of course no one knows what was added when. Just wanted your thoughts

-- Gregor (Gregor10001@Yahoo.com), June 06, 2000

Answers

The link to the complete Thomas is

Thomas

That is on EZboard.

Greg

-- Gregor (Gregor10001@yahoo.com), June 06, 2000.

"For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven". does cutting my own grass qualify me? or do I have to cut my hair into a crew cut? My God made me as I am, he didn't twin birth me with some male plastic surgeon who could whack off, or attach some physical appartus with which I was not born. I am not familiar with "Thomas". Was he an advertising Plastic Surgeon?

-- False Prophet (abound@roundus.here), June 06, 2000.

No; this is a scripture. Based on the information available, Thomas was the brother of Christ and the secretary of the meetings. My only question is what does this mean.

Greg

-- Gregor (Gregor10001@yahoo.com), June 06, 2000.

Oh no! I just had a sex change operation from male to female. It's all Anita's fault.

-- (nemesis@awol.com), June 06, 2000.

"Thomas" is one of the Gnostic -- i.e. -- heretical "gospels". Not Scripture. Not canonical. Read: horseshit. Try again later.

>"<

-- (nuts@upina.cellrelay.tower), June 06, 2000.

Gregor, you said,

No; this is a scripture. Based on the information available, Thomas was the brother of Christ and the secretary of the meetings. My only question is what does this mean.

It is not in the Bible, therefore it is not scripture (the inspired word of God). And Jesus didn't have a brother in the biological sense of the word. Even if you wanted to believe a heresy and say Mary and Joseph had children, they would only be Jesus' half-brother at best.

There's a reason the church didn't include this in the Bible, and that is that it is inaccurate.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), June 06, 2000.

That was a long, yet interesting read, Gregor. After a while, I had to check to see if I had two good ears. [grin]

Since so much of this is allegorical, my guess on verse 114 is first that Simon Peter was suggesting that women simply wouldn't understand what was being said and Jesus in turn suggested that he'd help her understand.

As I said, interesting read. I certainly agree with the opinion set forth on circumcision.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), June 06, 2000.

Nuts:

But a large part of the world doesn't agree with your interpretation. Paul, was the Bill Gates of his time; need I say more. Research has indicated that Thomas was the brother of Christ and recorded what was said. Doesn't agree with what Paul wrote. Indeed, there are good records that indicate that Paul tried to/or did kill James. Wow! What the Weekly World News would do with that story. Best use of that.

G

-- Gregor (Gregor10001@yahoo.com), June 06, 2000.

It wasn't included in the bible because it was not useful to the church. Let's face it, the church is no different than Microsoft. These writings of the brother of Christ are not really controversial, compared to other writings of the time or later. Read what you can of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

You know damn well that if Paul hadn't opposed James on doctrine, Christianity would have remained an unknown Jewish sect. He was the Gates of his time.

Gre

-- Gregor (Gregor10001@yahoo.com), June 06, 2000.

GREGOR, why do you want to believe a LIE so badly? furthermore,the 1st at the tomb,after jesus rose'was a women,& most of jesus financial help=came from women.AND WHO WASHED JESUS FEET' WITH her TEARS & dried them with her hair//// A WOMAN. get a clue greggie,JESUS elevated women to equal,s. there is nothing like a praying gran,ma or mom. they know how to get GODS attention.

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), June 06, 2000.

Thank you AL. =)

-- cin (cin@cin.cin), June 06, 2000.

"For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."...

Forget that, I'll take Hell anyday (sorry al-d :-)...

-- Hawk (flyin@hi.again), June 06, 2000.

al-d, you seem to be the most religion crazy on dis board. In fact, you put off some, because you seem to know it all. I got some heartburn, with those who claim to know all. Maybe it is an elevation thing, maybe you are just on a higher plateau, but I "don't have to like your ideas, just because you are brazen enough to post, and I'm not there yet. I am still stuck in the mire. What Say you about my situation?

-- My God (is@nawesomegod.com), June 06, 2000.

Hawk, are you da one who posted those photos? I am laughing, LOL, ROTFLOL over and over again. I take no exception, to laughter. Too Funny, as Bob Hope said, "thanks for the mammaries".

-- My Story (andi'm@stickingtoit.com), June 06, 2000.

Guilty as charged. Go ahead, damn me to Hell. :-)

-- Hawk (flyin@hi.again), June 07, 2000.

Hawk:

Which one are you willing to take the risk for? ROFL.....

Before you blast me, I'm just kidding....

Those are some ugly drags!!!!!!!

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), June 07, 2000.

Oh, I don't know consumer, I guess the blonde is pretty cute, don't ya think?...

...(don't even think about it, I was talking about the one on the bottom :-)

-- Hawk (flyin@hi.again), June 07, 2000.

TO: my god? sorry bro. i ain,t trying to prove nuthin'just sharing & caring.i just wouldn,t /can,t stand the thought of anyone being ETERNALLY LOST. ESPECIALLY WHEN GOD HAS SO PROVIDED THE ANSWER. WHAT,S MORE IMPORTANT=THE DAILY[BAD NEWS] OR THE AWESOME GOOD NEWS. if you knew my life story---you,d understand. what,s more important than your eternal soul? THERES ONLY 1 FATHER 1 SON 1 HOLY SPIRIT. not a religion--but RELATIONSHIP.

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), June 07, 2000.

Jesus said, "no prophet is welcome on his home turf,....."

No kidding, Jesus said THAT?

-- (nemesis@awol.com), June 07, 2000.

JESUS also said''the world hates him,& will hate his followers. GODS children-vs.-satan,s spawn. blessed-vs,-cursed----sheep & goats--wheat & tares. born again/dead twice.----found/lost. 2 kingdoms in conflict---guess who WINS?

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), June 07, 2000.

Another translation of that verse is "Not until the male becomes female and the female male shall ye enter into the Kningdom of Heaven." This probably refers to the loss of personal identity ("self" and "gender") that occurs when we die.

However, syncronistically, it may mean that, now that sex change operations are commonplace, we are about to enter some kind of utopian reality, or possibly the endtimes.

On the other hand, it may just be grand gibberish.

-- Moses (moses@dead.sea), June 07, 2000.

Gregor, you said,

It wasn't included in the bible because it was not useful to the church. Let's face it, the church is no different than Microsoft.

Gregor, from a non-Christian your point of view is acceptable, but if you're a Christian, this is merely foolish. If you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, who do you think decided what books would be in the Bible and which wouldn't?

I'd go on, but really think you must just be having a bad day.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), June 07, 2000.

Read up on the Gnostic heresy. Lots of info out there. This book of Thomas was written to foster the gnostic teachings, intermixing them with the words of the four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), June 07, 2000.

al-d, you got to rest. The Scripture, as I read it, does not place salvation of anyone, on anyone else, through ranting and words. As I read the words, my belief does not flow from words from my mouth, to anyones ear, unless they ask. The belief has to do with kindness to others when I have been dealt so many kind hands BY others. I quess maybe each person receives a personal message, like the guy on the corner with the signs of "Repent Now!". Well, his signs and horn blowing doesn't have much effect on me, because I don't have a whole lotta sins (I'm old) to turn around.But I sound my horn to tell his I acknowledged his statement. I am not cavorting in a local night club. Hell, I have barely the energy to go to work, then home, and turn on the sprinkler. But da man seems to have a mission. Eh?, he has the energy, I can make the effort. Horn blowing is nothing, repeated kindness (Lord, Can I rip their throat out?), is another effort.

-- Matthew 6 (for@llwholook.balm), June 07, 2000.

"For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven." I don't think it refers to sex changes. Remember the good book was written by a man so it has it's sexual biases. But to me this means that a woman is not whole unless she gives birth to a boy. Freud referred to this as "penis envy". A woman is not complete unless she has a penis and one way to get one is to extend the vagina into a penis (through a boy baby). What a bunch of bs. The bible and Freud suck.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), June 09, 2000.

That's okay, you women envy our dicks, but we envy your tits. I wish I had tits so that I could play with them all day long.

-- Sigmund Freud (envy@works.both.ways), June 09, 2000.