could the "Cult of the Meme" ever sprout into a full-blown religon?

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I think that this is worth considering. Currently, it is easy to dismiss "memetics" as just another junk science, and the insane cult driven ramblings by CPR, Doc "Mad Dog" Paulie, etc. as just another band of wackos. Cults come, cults go, what's the big deal?

The answer is Y2K. Recall that while even the most conservative and respected organizations, such as the Red Cross, urged that people make personal preparations in the event of possible Y2K induced power outages, food supply shortages, contaminated water problems, etc., CPR's cult chanted their mantra: "There is NO Y2K PROBLEM; there is only the INFECTIOUS DOOMER MEME that deceives people into BELIEVING that there is a Y2K problem."

When the very best Y2K scenario came to pass after rollover -- nothing happened except for the most trivial, easily fixed problems -- most people were relieved, and moved on. Nobody blamed organizations such as the Red Cross for telling people to prepare -- in view of the uncertain risks, and the disagreements among the experts as to what Y2K would bring, it was just good prudence.

But, in the minds of the Meme Cult, Y2K was the Great Event that separates cults from religions. After all, Y2K may be over, but the INFECTIOUS DOOMER MEME still lives! To deceive and to STRIKE YET AGAIN!

For most, Y2K is history, which much to be learned from; we should all be willing to ask, "How could we have handled it better?" But for CPR and Mad Dog Paulie, there is no learning, there is only a world to be saved. As in: "Go ye forth, and tell all nations of the Meme"...

-- WD-40 (wd40@squeak.not), June 06, 2000

Answers

Lube,

Point one: the government, the Red Cross and other agencies said to make modest preparations as a precaution. The keyword is "modest." The preps recommended by even the moderates at TB2000 went a WHOLE lot further than that. The preps recommended by the True Blue Doomers went WAY beyond that, even to the point of quitting your job, selling your house in the city, and becoming self-sufficient.

Point two: the reason why the Red Cross, et al, made those recommendations was because of bad advice given to *THEM* by clueless IT Doom types. These are the people who CPR and Doc are trying to expose now, and they SHOULD expose them. These snakes stirred up more stink than a stick in an outhouse and are now trying to slink away and pretend that they never did it. Sorry, won't work.

Point three: you continue to mistate what people like us believed and said about Y2K. We NEVER said that prudent preps were a bad idea. I was probably the biggest polly on the planet, and yet, I myself recommended a "hurricane kit" -- portable radio, batteries, canned food, etc. Further, I think ANYONE should have that, and shouldn't have waited for Y2K to do it.

Point four: go re-read point 2 again. :)

-- Stephen M. Poole, CET (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), June 06, 2000.


Foole:

And how much money did you make off of those "hurricane kits", you shameless fearmongering meme controlled huckster?

-- WD-40 (wd40@squeak.not), June 06, 2000.


When the very best Y2K scenario came to pass after rollover -- nothing happened except for the most trivial, easily fixed problems -- most people were relieved, and moved on.

Most people did move on. Some admitted their folly, some just "disappeared," and some merely changed aliases.

Some remain attempting to justify the hysteria they so embraced. The "Defenders of Ed and Paula and Milne" simply refuse - even now, after the fact - to acknowledge they were just plain wrong. They are the sufferers of the meme, and frankly, they deserve it and the accompanying loss of credibility with family and (former) friends for first engaging in the folly, and now attempting to revise history.

Perhaps one day, they Get It. But I doubt today is the day.

Vindicated Regards,
Andy Ray



-- Andy Ray (andyman633@hotmail.com), June 06, 2000.

"could the "Cult of the Meme" ever sprout into a full-blown religon?"

If you threw in a few dozen mega spleefs and an unlimited Margarita buffet I'd say you'd have a pretty fair shot : )

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), June 06, 2000.


Hail meme, full of grace

-- (nemesis@awol.com), June 06, 2000.


Typical Doomer response....Unable to face facts or make sense of the obvious. Maybe too much WD-40 on the brain,causing facts to slip slide away.

**** Foole: And how much money did you make off of those "hurricane kits", you shameless fearmongering meme controlled huckster?

-- WD-40 (wd40@squeak.not), June 06, 2000.

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-- gh (s@h.k), June 06, 2000.


http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003HTU

-- KY > WD-Zero (20-Sec@LubeJob.edu), June 06, 2000.

Look I don't expect you to GET IT(but I will give it another shot, because I think there is no more important issue of our day). The vast majority here didn't get Y2k, so to expect them to understand what exactly Y2k was about is a stretch.

The fact remains a WORLD of people were not only wrong, but not even close is CLUE ONE. Y2k was nothing(from the get-go btw). Most of y2k was dealt with decades before the noise appeared(the Millennium meme). Course now all the fooled will trot out the spending figures, the bunkers, the same(clue two) old sounding newstories, as some proof Y2k was real. All the while using a word which by it's very nature sound tell one what this incident was really about(clue three). Fact is, without ANYTHING(clue one again), one is in the land of fairies if they think Y2k represented something the public had to even know about, lest mobilize for. Y2k was like so many other computing issues facing SOME using computing, nothing more, nothing less.

One who "prepared", was serving the meme, not themselves. The meme made Gary North (in)famous. Made some rich, but as seems to be the nature of this meme, was an incredible waste of time for most involved. Any benefit overlooks the fact the universe is overwhelmingly good by default. Everything works out for the best anyhow(in the end). The great lesson I feel has been missed however. As it should be for most, as most are not ready to move-on. But as we know, it don't take the "most" to change things.

How is one in control next time? Simply understanding memes are real. Is Memetics wacky? untested? undefined largely? course. The subject area is new. This generation is witnessing the emergence of what I believe is a quantum leap in understanding the universe on many fronts. No area is as groundbreaking as the notion thoughts are seperate entities. The task is like catching lightning in a bottle. Will the big answers exist in my lifetime, maybe. One thing is certain, the study of Memetics is not going away as some of the finest minds on the planet disagree with the WD40 crowd completely. Nothing new here, the flatearthers have always fought progress. The very folks wanting control will bash the study. This is how it works. WD40 has a meme, the anti-memetics meme.

Is memetics a religion? No, no more than gravity is a religion, but IT runs the world we know. Would one question materialism is a religion to many? Memetics is the equalizer to a society being raped and plundered by out-of-control materialism. There is a constant war going on for your BRAIN. Untold billions are spent DAILY to make YOU do something, believe something. follow something. Most of these efforts are NOT in your best interest, but in the interest of somebody else. I suspect it behooves the individual, the freedom loving amongst us, to stay on top of what you can imagine the powers- that-be are watching without fail. It is my belief that many factors now in the public debate over memetics have already been worked out completely behind closed doors. What exactly does one think goes on at the many thinktanks around the world? reading of newspapers? No, scientific methods, testing, experimenting on how to improve the PR war is what.

Game has changed. This is the information age. The battle for your noodle has moved into an area where it has come down to digits( it has become that precise). If we only had to know about cookies, traffic, ips and the like, one could keep-up. Unfortunately the rather public DoubleClick incident is the tip of the iceberg heading for your doorstep.

If you want to REALLY learn from Y2k, a hour or two investigating the area of Memetics will serve you well. I would recommend 3 folks are worthy of investigating. One is clearly going to send many into orbit as she is what can best be described as a modern day witch,,Susan Blackmore. Hunch is, and from my research, nobody around has the diverse background Blackmore does to put something as revolutionary as Memetics into a better light. Two others would be, Richard Dawkins, the father of Memetics, and Aaron Lynch, the man who published the Millennium Contagion paper. There are others, Richard Brodie and Paul Marsden come to mind, but the aforementioned three are a good start. Follow the links from the one's provided and you will be up-to-speed in no time, and miles ahead of the crowd. Blackmore is the most understandable and the one which I feel has the most to offer.

Critical thinking didn't cut it. Religion didn't cut it. Being informed didn't cut it. Your defense must include the awareness that thoughts are indeed seperate entities, they are things. They are no more you than your shoes are in many ways. I find no better area addressing this than Memetics.

Now back to your regurlarly scheduled programming.



-- Doc Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), June 06, 2000.


Doc--

".....I think there is no more important issue of our day"

Surely you jest.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), June 06, 2000.


OK!!!OK!!!,

Throw in some Bloody Mary's and Martini's and youv'e got a deal.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), June 06, 2000.



Lars,

Doc is another man on a mission.

Remember what I wrote to you about correct flavor/denomination the other day?

Doc,

Just a quick, but perhaps impertinent question for you. We've been deconstructing ideas of faith around here for awhile. A couple of weeks ago, we had a round where it was postulated that often it seems that those who find comfort in dogmas had fairly strict religious upbringing as children. I realize you're propounding a psychological phenomena here, from your perspective, but you appear to have a convert's zeal. Would you care to share with us the wellspring that feeds this for you? Is it strictly a political thing?

-- flora (***@__._), June 06, 2000.


Thank you, "Doc" Paulie, for the links to help me understand what a "meme" is.

I would be interested in any additional links you may have. I am a Cognitive Scientist (Ph.D., Cognitive Experimental Psychology, among other things), and one of my current area of research is AI applications. I have seen numerous references to "memes" on this and other y2k forums, but not in the mainstream liturature. I have also read the links you have provided, but, alas, I remain puzzled. The concept is still a bit fuzzy to me. After I have had the opportunity to review your liturature, I promise to post a response in a couple of weeks.

Spindoc'

-- spindoc' (spindoc_99_2000@yahoo.com), June 06, 2000.


flora,

As you know?.. Doc is a used car salesman, that's just one step above a real estate salesman, and not much higher than a politician... which is to say, they don't get much respect. Do you wonder why he acts the way he does?... this was his 15 minutes.

Hi Cap.... a nice Hallibut fillet ( caught, not bought :-) with a beer batter coating... 1 1/2 minutes per side per inch in a smokeing pan, (corn oil ) Add a stuffed baked and a tossed fresh green , I almost don't need the jumbo shimp :-) Raising one to you......

-- Netghost (ng@no.yr), June 06, 2000.


Capn: Arent YOU forgetting something?

SAND, Dude, you MUST have SAND.....

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), June 07, 2000.


Hey Wetoast, pretty funny coming from a mobile home salesman!

"I'm 45, 6'1" 200 lbs. I'm the Service Manager, and IT head for a large Mobile Home Dealership on S. Oregon coast. I Restore old Porsches for fun, and of course, love to camp. I live in a resort that is walking distance of the best bottom fishing in the world. Got Elk, Deer, Quail, Grouse, and Turkey running around in my yard. Year around Greenhouse, and grav. fed water. Are you a Troll? -- CT (ct@no.yr), July 15, 1999. "

:-)


-- eye no U (and@where.U.live), June 07, 2000.


Net-Goat

Thats not a turkey running round in the yard. You just caught sight of your own reflection in the window pane.

Pay attention.

-- John Galt (Galt@galtsgulch.com), June 07, 2000.


HEY "FLORA". WAKE UP: --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003HMc

I will give you the rant version of the responses that salute the debunkers... Saviors or sadists? Neither title really describes their role. I feel the concept of BS Filter best describes the job these guys performed. They cut through the bullshit. Full stop. They debunked, and they did it well.

And agree with the style or not, they did filter out the bullshit. Call it a meme or a load of bull, but doomers who pitched the whole end as we know it were heading pretty far down bullshit lane to come up with some of their scary scenarios of post rollover life.

I gathered a ton of info in mid 1998 after I started realizing that y2k was not just Gateway's new computer model. Search the web back then, for y2k : The phones will not work in Brazil...Japan's banks are doomed...Forget about Russia...my electric company says I owe them from 1900...don't forget about embedded chips. Lots and lots of cheesy doom sites. But the posters at biffy calmly and cooly laid that bs to rest, one stupid claim after another.

Maybe I think that y2k was all bullshit because I wanted it to be bullshit, just like maybe I think the Utah Jazz suck just because I do not like them. Was I an irresponsible Polly just because I really never believed that my kids would die of the common cold because the pit crew from Road Warrior took over the local Rite Aid?

Bottom line - doomers were bored and the brave new world excited them. They found power in the secrets they knew about the future. The inside knowledge they had acquired was the equivalent of the tidbits you read in the gossip section of the newspaper at coffee break. Hey did you hear Madonna shaves her knuckles? Say, did you hear the army has to change chips in all the latrines on every army base around the world by midnight 12/31/99 or the world ends?? Na, na, I knew it first.

So I salute the debunkers who hacked their machetes through the bullshit jungle that doomers tried to call the future.

And by the way, doomers, next time you want to envision a world of survival plan a hike on the AT or a nice cross country bike tour.

QuietMan

-- QuietMan (quietjohn2k@hotmail.com), June 06, 2000. >

http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003HMc >

-- Anon (anon@anon.anon), June 07, 2000.


I will give you the rant version of the responses that salute the debunkers... Saviors or sadists? Neither title really describes their role. I feel the concept of BS Filter best describes the job these guys performed. They cut through the bullshit. Full stop. They debunked, and they did it well.

GO FUCK YOURSELF -- I FOR ONE DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR STUPID FUCKING CULT OR YOUR CUNT CENSORS (THIS INCLUDES DICKLESS CHUCKIE BOY WHO STARTED THE CENSORSHIP AFTER WIFEY LAID DOWN THE LAW). YOU PEOPLE ARE A LAUGHING STOCK. YOU FUCKING LOSER. GO FUCK YOURSELF WITH YOUR MEMES. SHITHEAD. ESAD....DITTO FOREVER!!
- Mr Polly 10:47:07 1/01/100

-- (Debunker@heroes.con), June 08, 2000.


GO FUCK YOURSELF -- I FOR ONE DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR STUPID FUCKING CULT OR YOUR CUNT CENSORS (THIS INCLUDES DICKLESS CHUCKIE BOY WHO STARTED THE CENSORSHIP AFTER WIFEY LAID DOWN THE LAW). YOU PEOPLE ARE A LAUGHING STOCK. YOU FUCKING LOSER. GO FUCK YOURSELF WITH YOUR MEMES. SHITHEAD. ESAD....DITTO FOREVER!!
- Mr Polly 10:47:07 1/01/100

-- (FLUSH@AGAIN.COM), June 08, 2000.

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