Well here we go again. Local math teacher shot and killed in school by a 13 yr old male student.

Any ideas on what the solution is for these awful incidents?

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), May 26, 2000

Answers

Arrest and charge the parents with public endangerment. Also, arm the teachers.

-- Willy (from@old.Philly), May 26, 2000.

Finally, frogmarch the student out into the schoolyard and shoot him on the spot.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), May 26, 2000.

how,s about giving them BACK, the faith of the oldtimers. instead of teaching them they came for primordal-slimepit. HOW,S about the GOOD NEWS.that GOD loves them. program,s--gun-control-won,t do it,it,s a spiritual-problem. SUPPORT the ex-gang-member,s who have turned to GOD, who are willing to go into school,s & testify.can you believe 1 un-holy woman,got prayer taken out of school,s in 1963-since then'look at the decline in moral,s[no fear of GOD=no fear of niehgbor]no=respect.

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), May 26, 2000.

"Any ideas on what the solution is for these awful incidents?"

Whoa, that's a heavy one Unc!

Well, it really has nothing to do with guns, it has to do with our society. Things like family values, ethics, morals, conscience, discipline, respect, and decency. All those things are being lost in our insane pursuit of the almighty dollar, and materialistic instant gratification. It has to do with our entire corporate establishment and financial system, our policy of giving people credit, and encouraging them to buy things when they don't have the money in their pockets. It has to do with an almost complete abandonment of spiritual awareness, because religions are too busy warring with each other to practice what they preach.

All of this has unfortunately gone far beyond any hope of our ever correcting it by way of conscious effort. The human race has repeatedly made the same mistakes over an over again, assuming an egocentric view of the world, as though it belongs to us, rather than us belonging to it. Humans are willing participants in a grand illusion, too self-absorbed to care about anything beyond their own physical reality. In order for mankind to attain spiritual enlightment, a drastic alteration of our consciousness will be necessary.

The solution will come, but unfortunately it will not be an intentional benefit of expanded awareness, but rather a disastrous consequence of our lack of it. It might be a severe economic collapse, earth changes, or another horrific mass genocide by nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons. Whatever happens, it will have to be much more destructive than any previous disasters before we will evolve enough to understand which aspects of our lives are truly the most important.

-- Hawk (flyin@hi.again), May 26, 2000.

Whatever you do, don't restrict his ability to get posesion of a gun in the first place, maybe the teacher should have taken sensitivity classes so he would know what the kid considered "dissing" and would have avoided it.

After all, what is the first amendment doing interfearing with the second? 1) "On every question of construction (of the Constitution) let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one which it was passed." - Thomas Jefferson.

2) "A free people ought ... to be armed ..." - George Washington.

3) "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." - Alexander Hamilton.

4) " ... the people have the right to keep and bear arms." - Patrick Henry.

5) "The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun." - Patrick Henry.

6) "To disarm the people (is) the best and most effectual way to enslave them." - George Mason.

7) "The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are to be left in full possession of them." - Zachariah Johnson.

8) "Arms in the hands of citizens (may) be used at individual discretion ... in private self-defense." - John Adams.

9) "And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress ... to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms ..." - Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, Aug. 20, 1789.

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), May 26, 2000.

"Any ideas on what the solution is for these awful incidents?"

I agree with the first poster. Make the parents responsible. A 13 year old is not an adult and still under the care of parents.

It is not the kid who has failed in learning appropriate eithical and moral behavior, it is the parents who are responsible to teach him/her appropriately.

And what is appropriate punishment for such failing parents is another question/issue.

-- (y@x.x), May 26, 2000.

Taken from my background as a kid growing up in the fifties. Supposition: lack of control. How about making parents responsible for the actions of their children? The courts have given waaay too many rights to children (if you hit me [or don't] I'll scream child abuse-I have my rights). And the two working parents scenario contributes to lack of supervision. Most of these kids don't know fear. Fear of recrimination by their family (it's ok, we love you, we know you won't do it again and oh, you're pregnant at 14 or 15- we're sorry but all your friends are doing it-we understand and love you (so they do it again for next two years [and you can collect AFDC & FS & Medicaid-the govt will take care of you-versus the family that says IT'S NOT OKAY-you are shaming the family-DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT IF YOU WISH TO REMAIN A MEMBER OF THIS FAMILY (what ever happened to the philosophy of ostracism?). If you go to juvie, it's OK you'll learn your lesson (from other folks in the institution who tell you how to get around it and not take responsibility for yourself and how not to get caught next time and how to work the system so you can get more govt benes). So when you grow up, you can learn to live with 3 hots and a cot 'cuz that where you've been and you know how to work the system. IT'S OK THE GOVERNMENT WILL TAKE CARE OF YOU is the message (your tax dollars at work). Conscience? Seems to not even exist anymore. WHY? Because parents ( 1 or 2) don't teach their kids responsibility (or show them an example). Hell, some of the parents don't know what personal responsiblity is any more. And there is no societal shame. SHAME was a major factor in the building of this country. Look at history. Pride used to be a goal- pride in your family, pride in your accomplishments, pride in your place in life. Is there no pride left? While I do not wish to ressurect the stocks and stoning of our Puritannical history, to some degree, it had some merit, at least metaphorically. While black and white have turned to shades of gray, varing shades of gray have become acceptable. WHY? Because we have allowed it and the legal community as well as the legislatures have legislated it. Who will stand up and say ENOUGH? Change domes from the people. Are you willing to stay appalled or work to change things legislatively?

(Rant off)

-- Aunt Bee (SheriffAndy@Mayberry.com), May 26, 2000.

how,s about doing it GODS way.realizing HE[our creator] knows what,s best for us.i,m not talking about [self-righteous] do-or die stuff. JESUS made it real simple-HE said keep these 2 commandment,s & live. NO. 1 love GOD completely[heavenly FATHER] & LOVE OTHERS AS YOURSELF. GEESH I,VE FOUND IT WORK,S-ALTHOUGH i don,t alway,s get it right. thats, when AMAZING GRACE KICKS IN.thank GOD for 2nd &3rd & mucho chances,at least we can try.& when we fail,HE SAY,S confess it &get restored.''WHAT-A-SAVIOR''

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), May 26, 2000.

Al, as hard as I try to make some sense out of your posts they just wont hunt. You ramble on and on but nothing you say has any relevance. You say to do it Gods way. What would that BE Al? Didnt God have any control over that 13-year-old killer that wasted the innocent teacher? YOU are obviously NOT in control of reality entertaining but irrelevant. We must insist that the parents of these kids be held accountable for their actions. Personally, I dont care if the whole family needs to be locked up. Beats the

-- Ra (tion@l.1), May 27, 2000.

hell out of innocent folks being blown away. Stop the madness!

-- Ra (tion@l.1), May 27, 2000.

That "kid" who acted as adult should be tried,convicted and executed for his actions.

No!,maybe we should execute his family and friends for his actions and set the little scumbag free to go kill someone else that he deems not worthy of life because they made him mad.

This line of reasoning is bullshit!!!!!!!!!!

Kill the punk and see how many of his friends want to join him.And if the parents REALLY care they will see to it that their kid isn't the next in line.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), May 27, 2000.

Society is so sick at this point, that you can have good, well- meaning parents and a kid who turns to shit anyway. Parents have far less influence over children, especially when they reach their teens, than they used to. Doesn't mean they should not stop trying, but if a kid wants to dis his parents as much as he wants to hit the world, he will make sure they get in trouble too just by being responsible for him. Ironically, punishing the parents can actually be reinforcement for an angry kid's bad behavior.

My ex-husband always used to say, "You are such a Great Mom -- look at what a great son you raised !!" I was always a little leery of the praise. What if my boy had gone the other way? I did not want to take the praise, because I did not want to take the blame either. I only wanted to do my best.

We the well-meaning parents can only do our best and hope it all comes out ok in the wash. In my case, I opted for the best blend of home schooling I could find. That is not practical in many cases. And my ultimate decision -- seeing the way the world was going, and as horrible as this sounds for someone so focused on child development -- was to have no more children. Parenting skill is great, but eventually in a toxic society, one's luck may run out.

Capn, I would not punish parents or friends, and I would not shoot the punk. I would lock him up almost forever, study his brain (ya'll dont have to, just let me or some real experts do it) and not let him out until we have trigger-locked his behavior and have healed society of at least some of this infecting depravity, cruelty and misplaced rage so that these incidents of slaughter have ceased.

-- Normally (Oxsys@aol.com), May 27, 2000.

Maybe bringing corporal punishment back would help?

haven't seen Michael Fey in the news lately doing anything bad....

-- Caning, anyone? (canes@re.cheaper.than.prison.cells), May 27, 2000.

Pass stricter gun laws -- wait, that won't work. It isn't addressing the real problem and will just make things difficult for the other 99.99999% of us.

Hold the parents accountable -- that might take care of this particular situation, but there is an awfully large number of lousy parents out there who won't understand that they may be next.

Eliminate all uneducated trash -- hmm, that's just inhumane.

Force Hollywood to tone down violent productions -- that seems to be such an easy target, though. What happens when we do that and nothing changes?

Short answer to your question: a solution is not easily developed when the actual causes of a problem are not easily identified.

-- aqua (aqu@fin.a), May 27, 2000.

RAtion, yup part of doing it GODS way,is 'spare the rod,spoil the child']--good ole fashion butt whippin,some brave parent,s that tell govt. to kiss-off.

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), May 27, 2000.

"Society is so sick at this point, that you can have good, well- meaning parents and a kid who turns to shit anyway. Parents have far less influence over children, especially when they reach their teens, than they used to. Doesn't mean they should not stop trying, but if a kid wants to dis his parents as much as he wants to hit the world, he will make sure they get in trouble too just by being responsible for him. Ironically, punishing the parents can actually be reinforcement for an angry kid's bad behavior. "

I disagree with that completely. Being "well-meaning" and being responsible are two different things. Kids that turn out well have learned from their parent's example but ALSO from parents who discuss with their kids on every issues. Those kids have learned and absorbed their parent's morals and values and made that part of themselves. And angry kid has some deep issues unresolved. It's the parent's responsibility to find out what those issues are, and if it takes help from councellors/therapist, then that's what the parent's should do. Not just sending the kid to a therapist, but both parents attending with the kid, so the parent can also learn why the kid is angry and what to do about it.

"My ex-husband always used to say, "You are such a Great Mom -- look at what a great son you raised !!" I was always a little leery of the praise. What if my boy had gone the other way? I did not want to take the praise, because I did not want to take the blame either. I only wanted to do my best. "

You should accept the praise, because evidently you've shown good example to your kid and you were there to listen and help him deal with issues that arise in teen years.

To me, it's all a matter of priorities. Making the time for kids and being home and available when they need us. And kids need us at all time of day and night. "Well-meaning" parents who both work full-time are stretched to the limit are not always available to listen to their kid at the moment the kid needs them. Responsibility means setting priorities (in my case it's kids over luxury/fullfilling careers), and be willing to sacrifice lesser priorities for the kids.

-- (y@x.x), May 27, 2000.

it,s what,s called=a sign of the TIMES.

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), May 27, 2000.

Atrocities like this are becoming so common that I can't remember their sequence. Did the Wendy's executions in Queens NY occur before or after this event?

The alleged Wendy's killers been apprehended. They are 30-somethings. Their parents are not an issue. Is there anyone here who think these guys (if convicted) should NOT be executed by the People? FS, you oppose the death penalty. Here is a challenging case for you. (BTW, I grew up in Bergen county)

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), May 28, 2000.

OK, now Lars outs himself - he's from NJ also. Is there anyone who isn't from or lived (to tell about it) in NJ?

For 1,000,000 beans of your choice: What is NJ's nickname?

a: The Constitution State

b: The Garden State

c: The arm pit of the Republic

d: The Keystone State

Lars I'm against the death penalty. This is a topic that comes around pretty regularly. You may wish to start a new thread Lars. Everyone has an opinion about it. As it should be.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 28, 2000.

The answer is c.

The solution to the problem is to try the kid as an adult, send him to an adult prison, and chronicle every detail of his life for at least the next year.

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), May 28, 2000.

It seems that they are trying to get the kid [15 years old] tried as an adult.

Also, it turns out that the gun belonged to his grandfather.

I dunno if interests anyone or anything, but the kid was African/American and the teacher was Caucasian.

The teacher is survived by a wife and two children....

The teacher was shot in the face. The kid came back to school after the last classes of the day [year?]

-- some more info (fyi@north.florida), May 28, 2000.

Of course the real answer is b. Truck farming was big business there. Although, now, I think that they make most of the trucks in Saint Louis or Kansas City. :^) I don't and never have lived there.

By-the-way, I read that the child will be tried as an adult.

Best wishes,,,

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), May 28, 2000.

My daughter is surveying people of different age groups regarding teenage problems. She interviewed me and some of the questions were "What was your greatest concern as a teen?" "Were gangs a problem when you were a teen?" "Were drugs readily available when you were a teen?" "Was suicide common when you were a teen?" "Were kids from less wealthy families treated differently?" I'll be curious to read her findings, however I pointed out that she needed to go beyond age group to include socio-economic level, rural, suburban, urban, etc. I've made no secret that I went to inner-city public schools during my teen years, and violence, drugs, gangs, pregnancies, etc. were all there. Switch-blade knives were the weapon of choice at that time. I remember when my dad caught my brother with one. I had one fall out of my locker the morning of locker inspections. Heh...LOTS of stuff fell out of my locker that morning, including condoms. Nobody asked ME to stash it there, so I had to conclude someone had asked my locker partner.

If there were an easy solution for these things, one would think it would have been found by now, since the problems have been there since the 50's. Much like fashions move from Paris runways to show up later in the streets, the problems of the inner-cities have moved to suburban and rural areas.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 28, 2000.

The "kid" (soon it will be "prison bitch") will be tried as an adult.As he's already confessed so the trial should move right along and he'll be exploring new lifestyles in no time.More distressing is that the grandfather from whom the .25 cal. pistol was stolen will probably be charged.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), May 28, 2000.

Zoob, Im curious why you are distressed about the possibility of the Grandfather being charged?

-- Ra (tion@l.1), May 28, 2000.

I have some questions for the grandfather...

1. Why did you have a gun? Was a necessity for work? [i.e. law enforcement, irs agent, etc.]

2. If not a necessity for your job, were you simply exercising your Constitutional right to own one? Did you feel that your location [neighborhood] required you to have this lethal weapon for defense?

3. Did you show the gun to the kid and explain and train him in its use so that he was familiar with it, and its deadly force?

4. Was there a safety lock on the gun? if so, did the kid have access to the key to this lock? Why, or why not?

Those are but a few questions that I have....

Don't get me wrong now. I do not blame the grandfather for having a gun. As long as he has a legal right to own it, no problem. I just wonder what the circumstances were that led the kid to chose this weapon over say, a knife, or just taking a swing at the teacher.

If it turns out that the grandfather did not have a lock on the gun, and it was easily accessible by the kid, and the kid knew all about it, then I believe the grandfather is an accessory after the fact.

Remember, guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people.

This gun was NOT designed to be used for hunting, remember.

It seems clear that this kid did not think through the ramifications of this choice.

-- Porky gets a new cell mate! (dumb@ss.kid), May 28, 2000.

The "kid" (soon it will be "prison bitch") will be tried as an adult.As he's already confessed so the trial should move right along and he'll be exploring new lifestyles in no time.

And the media will probably move on to something else. That's the unfortunate part. This is exactly where media sensationalism would be most effective. Interview him a few hundred times, plaster his life story all over the evening news, show everyone how much "fun" a teenager has in an adult prison. Telecast his first meeting with his 250-lb serial rapist roommate. Ask the kid how he feels about being the man's "boy toy" for the next 15-20 years.

That might change a few people's minds.

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), May 28, 2000.

Bingo---

Thankyou for reminding me---NJ is the Garden State. It's been so long, I had forgotten and thought it was the hard-on state. When I was a kid, Paramus was wall-to-wall irrigated truck farms. Rich black earth, 45 miunutes from NYC. Now it is what--strip malls, truckstops, suburban sprall? I don't want to know.

You are right, capital punishment has been done to death. That is why I haven't started a thread. I am not in favor of it's indisciminant use, but if there becomes irrefutable proof for the Wendy's executioners, then I say toast 'em. Anything less would say that the lives that were so callously snuffed had less value than those of the snuffees. I believe society must start sending the message that certain behaviors are unacceptable, are taboo.

Please send 1,000,000 black beans to Lars, c/o General Delivery, Indianapolis, Indiana.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), May 28, 2000.

Hmmmm, that is the most AWFUL suggestion I have seen yet, IMHO....

There is NO solution for this yet...how about some more info? Here in Ohio recently we had a girl who worked at a gas station, her 'friends' came in, sat round and talked awhile, left, came back in and shot her to death...tried to kill her g/friend who was also there at the time, but RAN out of bullets...Perps were 15 yr old. This girls dad had JUST moved out of the city to avoid Violence. go figure, it IS everywhere.

But my point, the killer, went from foster home to foster home, his first word was bitch, and alot of folks blame it on the 'system' of foster care...so what now? Lock up all foster parents? NOT.

Imagine, if any of us could, what if, it were OUR child and as hard as it is to think of that, it Could happen. We never know.

My son (the 19 yr old w/baby) was at our picnic yesterday, my brother who is a cop said to me "sis, I dont want to offend you, but the best thing that ever happened to him was becoming a father, he was on the fast track headed to nowhere".

It hurt, but it was true, he did get involved in gang violence, was almost shot, and was NOT afraid of nothing, NOTHING. At the time, he lived w/his dad, and when he came to live w/me it was very hard to discipline him, he was used to running the streets as his dad was seldom home.

He was no Angel, and many nites I prayed God please protect him, his best friend was beaten nearly to death and dumped from a car, my son sat at this 15 yr olds beside at the hospital while this child laid in a coma over 15 days.

He finally came around is still not right. But he is alive and now out of the street gang garbage.

Solution, IMHO, is we must know where are children are, gun owners have a responsibilty to keep um LOCKED UP and away from others. All the gun owners I know do this.

After my son sat in the hospital all those days, I KNEW 'they' would go looking for the guilty party!!! But, my son, began to really express to me how he NEVER wished to end up that way, and even talked the others into no retaliation.

Good does come from bad. Yes the 13 year old should no doubt be punished, but I for one would be interested in hearing more. I feel for the math teachers family, beyond a doubt. But also feel for society in general and the state in which we have came to.

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), May 29, 2000.

Lars:

This case is not difficult. I do not believe in an eye for an eye-I do not believe in legalized murder. And I am not going to defend my position on this thread as it has been done to death. Buth thanks for remembering where I stand on the issue.

I am not old enough to remember Paramus as farms-there have always been malls there in my eyes, but the BIGGEST change by far in the last 10 years is the revitilization of Hoboken and the THOUSANDS of rental units and condos along the river from Hoboken to Fort Lee. Unbelievable.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 29, 2000.

Hey FS, back in the 1980's I frequented Arthur's Steakhouse in Hoboken. $9.95 for a monster steak & potatoes. Bass ale on tap & chocolate mousse for dessert. Go there weighing 180 lbs., leave at 185+!

I can't for the life of me remember the street it's on. Main drag - Washington Street maybe?

Lars, I'm sending the beans via postcard. Let me know if they don't show up.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 29, 2000.

Bingo-

Yep-Washington street it is-they are still there. How about Maxwells? There was really some happening music there in the 80's.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 29, 2000.

What's the solution? Well, more Howard Stern during prime time of course!

If we degrade ourselves just a little bit further, no one will notice atrocities like this any longer.

There's your solution.

-- H. Stern (hstern@cbs.com), May 30, 2000.

FS---

In advocating the death penalty, I was referring to the adult sociopaths that executed the Wendys employees. To me, the death sentence for such slaughter is totally appropriate. In fact, I can't see anything else remotely appropriate. These guys have probably killed before and probably will kill again, even if they are in prison for life. They are inncorigibles and do not deserve to be reformed even if that were possible.

You can call the death penalty "legalized murder". In this case, I call it justice for the People. What to do about the 13 year old in Florida? I confess, I dunno.

Ah, Paramus. Ah, a summer night tooling Route 17 looking for babes at drive-in restaurants. Ah, the 50's.

Bingo--I will be looking for them beans. Be sure it is exactly 1,000,000. I have employed a CPA to count the beans.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), May 30, 2000.