After reading Phyl's review I had a thought about the pregnant girl. Phyl made a good point about why she would have been delivering in the ER...although I do know some people who have only labored for two hours after Pitocin. Anyway, after reading the review I thought : I hope they did not give her any pain medication or an epidural to get through that labor! IMO she deserved to be in any pain she had! But of course, they probably would have had to give her something if she asked.

-- amanda (amanda.rehm@home.com), May 23, 2000

Answers

I agree that they should not have given her any pain med, but I had a thought (does this make sense to anybody?): the girl seemed freaked about them cutting her open. Besides all of the already discussed options (rape, wanting the baby to die, her parents), did anybody else think that it could be possible that she was scared of pain/surgery/being "cut open"? It was just an idea I had because she kept saying "don't cut me open; don't cut me open!" BTW she did seem a little self-centered; the only person she was thinking about was herself!

-- Lauren (whateverchick@aol.com), May 23, 2000.

Yikes! Have either of you ever been in labor? It hurts like hell! The views you have toward pregnant girl, while understandable (I hated her, too), are exactly the kind of moral judgments that doctors can NEVER EVER afford to make. For example, Malucci was dead wrong a few weeks ago for not giving molester dad enough lidocaine when he stiched him up. Even when we administer the death penalty in the U.S., the Constitution provides that we cannot carry it out in such a way as to cause extreme suffering!

-- Beth (bsmith@internet-95.com), May 23, 2000.

Doctors are there to serve humanity, not be inhumane. It's not their call whether or not to make their patients suffer in pain. God knows that the girl would probably suffer from emotional pain later on when she matures and understands what she has done. Anyway, I know that this is a really lame defence of the girl, but I really felt sorry for her. I wonder too that if killing, per se, the baby was actually a blessing in disguise... do you really think she would have been a good mother?

-- samira (matb_west@chickmail.com), May 23, 2000.

Yes, I have been in labor - twice and I know it hurts like hell, but IMO she didn't deserve any pain meds. As I mentioned above, if she asked I am sure they would have had to give them to her. She may not have even known enough to ask though considering she was so clueless. And since she was delivering in the ER that could mean her labor progressed very quickly and they COULDN'T give her pain meds (I know once you are so far dilated they can't give you an epidural anymore). You may think I am cruel and to any normal person I would recommend an epidural (they are awesome!) but she doesn't get any sympathy from me. Sorry!

-- amanda (amanda.rehm@home.com), May 23, 2000.

I have to agree with you that the girl couldn't have been a good mother, Samira. But I don't think that killing anyone is EVER a blessing. It would have been sad if she had kept the baby (had it lived) but I think with as much as she didn't want anybody to know, she would have gotten rid of it as fast as possible. Who knows? We will probably never find out anything more about her.

p.s. yes I have been in labor (three times!) and it hurts really, really bad. (I don't cuss) but that woman, girl, whatever you want to call her... she disgusted me. I would never tell anyone to go through labor without pain killers or epidural or whatever... but I might make an exception for that lady. (Not that the doctors had any choice.)

-- Lauren (whateverchick@aol.com), May 23, 2000.

I think, no matter how bad someone is, that they should be given pain meds for any type of suyrgery. I know that God would not wish pain on anyone, so I will try not to either!

-- Sonya (carterschick@hotmail.com), May 23, 2000.

IMO, Luca was completely out of line on both the hellicopter call and the pregnant girl. Doctors are paid to do their job, not to make decisions based on their own morals, values, etc. They are not God, and too many time doctors tend to start believeing they are. While I morally agreed with both decisions, I also know that when you are a professional you leave personal lives at home and don't bring them to work. On both calls, Luca made decisions based on his own personal beliefs. As to whether or not she deserved pain meds that is also not the doctors decision, if the procedure called for pain meds then she she should have been given some. Purposely inflicting pain on another person would have made him no better a person then she was regardless of reason. That is not another persons call to make (JMO)

-- dena (dtucker73@yahoo.com), May 24, 2000.

I just wanted to say that hundreds of thousands of women give birth each year with no pain meds. It is NOT required of any doctors to give pain meds during labor. Some doctors are even against pain meds at all...it is up to the woman to find a doctor that agrees with her beliefs on that. Some doctors (this has been in the news in my area lately) will not give epidurals to women that don't have insurance. So I don't think it is a RIGHT per se. Of course, if they went through with the c-section I would expect them to give her the appropriate meds for that (I'm not that mean! :) )

-- amanda (amanda.rehm@home.com), May 24, 2000.

For those of you who've had more than one baby (I've only had one): Is it really possible to be pregnant up to 32 weeks and not know it? Gloria insisted that she was not pregnant and then said she didn't know. I should think there would be obvious signs: menstruation stops, you gain weight, you go through mood swings, you have to go to the bathroom all the time, and most important, you feel something moving around inside. When I was pregnant with my baby, not only did I feel her move (especially at night) but sometimes she'd kick so hard it actually hurt! Can a woman be in such a state of denial regarding pregnancy that she can fool herself into thinking that all the things mentioned above associated with pregnancy are actually symptoms or results of something else?

-- M. Swain (smswain@xmission.com), May 24, 2000.

M. Swain...I have no idea how a woman could go through 8 months of pregnancy and not know, but I have heard of it happening. I think that this girl was so much in denial that she made herself believe that she was not pregnant and if she acted like nothing was wrong that maybe "it" would go away. And I have to admit, as much as I hated her actions I do feel sorry for her in this regard. But to be so close to delivering and being right there where people could help her "make it go away" (by delivering and putting up for adoption) I can't believe she wouldn't have taken the route. I said on another thread that maybe if she didn't have to have the c-section they COULD have talked her into delivering and giving the baby up.

-- amanda (amanda.rehm@home.com), May 24, 2000.

Also besides the fact that a. she could have been in denial (about being pregnant) and b. she might have been lying; if she was mentally unstable, than her mind might just not have REGISTERED that she was missing periods, gaining weight, etc. I mean, mentally disturbed people... who knows where their mind goes? So if she was off her rocker, than it could have been possible that she didn't know about her pregnancy or it just hadn't registered.

-- Lauren (whateverchick@aol.com), May 24, 2000.

Regarding the above posts about her not knowing, she might not have had regular menstrual cycles to begin with so never missed them. I don't know about some of the other things. Her belly didn't look all that big to me so it could be possible she'd been heavier before and had lost weight in the rest of her body but shifted to her tummy. Maybe? As for mood swings, she might have already been all over the place emotionally anyway. I think you guys bring up some good points but it does happen in real life (not often) that women get pregnant and don't know it until very, very late into the pregnancy. On the other hand, I wasn't totally convinced that she didn't she was pregnant before coming to the ER. Luka thought she'd stabbed herself and if she did...and wanted the baby to die...she sure picked the right place to hit.

-- Diana (dilynne@juno.com), May 25, 2000.

she DID know she was pregnant. she was just in denial, and her tummy was big!! it was quite obvious. what's funny is her saying "dont tell my parents" hell, wouldnt they notice that big belly? they must live out of town....

-- ALexis Springer (lexicat1@webtv.net), May 26, 2000.

In my take on this, she totally knew she was pregnant. She was trying to hide it by pretending she didn't know. I also don't think she has this huge fear of 'being cut open'. She didn't want the baby, she didn't want it out, she didn't want the reality of a live baby.

-- Danette (bjpind@televar.com), May 29, 2000.