This is a long one, but worth it:

"Very few of the value judgements you have incorporated into your truth are judgements you yourself have made based on your own experience. Yet experience is what you came here for-and out of your experience were you to create yourself. You have created your experience out of the experience of others.

If there were such a thing as sin, this would be it: to allow yourself to become what you are because of the experience of others. THis is the 'sin' you have committed. All of you. You do not await your own experience, you accept the experience of others as gospel(literally) and then, when you encounter the actual experience for the first time, you overlay what you think you know onto the encounter.

If you did not do this, you might have a wholly different experience-one that might render your original teacher or source wrong. In most cases, you don't want to make your parents, your schools, your religions, your traditions, your holy scriptures wrong-so you deny your own experience in favor of what you have been told to think.

Nowhere can this be more profoundly illustrated than in your treatment of human sexuality.

Everyone knows the sexual experience can be the single most loving, most exciting, most powerful, most exhilirating, most renewing, most energizing, most affirming, most intimate, most uniting, most recreative physical experience of which humans are capable. Having discovered this experientally, you have chosen to accept instead the prior judgements, opinions, and ideas about sex promulgated by others-all of whom have a vested interest in how you think.

These opinions judgements and ideas have run directly contradictory to your own experience, yet because you loath to make your teachers wronog you convince yourself it must be your experience that is wrong. The result is that you have betrayed your truth about this subject-with devastating results.

...Amazingly, you have created this same contradiction around God. Everything your heart experiences about God tells you God is good. Everything your teachers teach about God tells you God is bad. Your heart tells you God is to be loved without fear. Your teachers tell you God is to be feared, for He is a vengeful God. You are to live in fear of God's wrath, they say. You are to tremble in his presence. Your whole life through you are to fear the judgement of the lord. For the lord is 'just' you are told. And God knows, you will be in trouble when you confront the terrible justice of the lord. You are therefore, to be 'obedient' to God's commands. Or else.

Above all, you are not to ask logical questions as 'If GOd wanted strict obedience to His laws, why did he create the possiblity of those Laws being violated?'. Ah, your teachers tell you-because God wanted you to have free choice. Yet what kind of choice is free when to choose one thing over the other brings condemnation? How is 'free will' free when it is not your will, but someone else's that must be done? Those who would teach you this make a hypocrtie of GOd.

You are told God is forgiveness, and compassion-yet if you do not ask his forgiveness in the 'right way', if you do not 'come to GOd' properly, your plea will not be heard, your cry will go unheeded. Even this would not be so bad if there were only one proper way, but there are so many 'proper ways' being taught as there are teachers to teach them.

Most of you, therefore, spend the bulk of your adult life searching for the 'right' way to worship, to obey, to serve god. The irony of all this is that I do not want your worship, I do not need your obedience, and it is not necessary for you to serve me.

These behaviors are the behaviors historically demanded of their subjects by monarchs-usually egomaniacal, insecure, tyrannical monarchs at that. They're not Godly demands in any sense-and it seems remarkable that the world has not concluded that the demands are counterfeit, having nothing to do with the needs or desires of Deity.

Deity has no needs. All that Is is exactly that: all that is. It therefore wants, or lacks, nothing by definition.

If you choose to believe in a God who somehow needs something-and has such hurt feelings if He doesn't get it that He punishes those from whom he expected to receive it-then you choose to believe in a God much smaller than I. You truly are Children of a Lesser God.

No, my children, please let me assure you again, through this writing, that I am without needs. I require nothing.

THis does not mean that I am without desires. Desires and needs are not the same thing(although many of you have made them so in your present lifetime).

Desire is the beginning of all creation. It is first thought. It is a grand feeling in the soul. It is God choosing next what to create.

And what is God's desire? I desire first to know and experience myself, in all my Glory-to know Who I Am. Before I invented you-and all the worlds of the universe-it was impossible for me to do so.

Second I desire that you shall know and experience Who You Really Are, and through the power I have given you to create and experience yourself in whatever way you choose.

THird I desire for the whole life process to be an experience of constant joy, continuous creation, never-ending expansion, and total fulfillment in each moment of now.

I have established a perfect system whereby these desires may be realized. They are being realized now-in this very moment. The only difference between you and me is I KNOW THIS.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 22, 2000

Answers

the BIBLE tell,s us who we are. beware of false-prophets. we ARE all sinners--in need of the saviour. it.s looking upward---not inward. be not decieved--GOD is not mocked.

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), May 22, 2000.

Hi FS,

Regretfully, I haven't yet read much on your other threads on this subject, but this sure was one beautiful piece! It shows a respect and reverance for this wonderful human experience -- this precious gift we have called life. Thank you so much.

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), May 22, 2000.

That's a shiv to the ribs of a few here, man. Ouch! I spy a rift growing wide & deep. Not judging your choice of passages FS, just prepping for the duck & cover. ;^)

No need to comment on the passage itself. What could I add to it? Very nice.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 22, 2000.

"the BIBLE tell,s us who we are." ???

Well, isn't that speshaaaal!

-- Church Lady (not@buyin.it), May 22, 2000.

FS,

Again my thanks for sharing this. And, as Bingo 1 has said, it will soon be time to duck and cover, however, I am with 'ya, for what it's worth.

-- Richard (Astral-Acres@webtv.net), May 22, 2000.

"You are told God is forgiveness, and compassion-yet if you do not ask his forgiveness in the 'right way', if you do not 'come to GOd' properly, your plea will not be heard, your cry will go unheeded. Even this would not be so bad if there were only one proper way, but there are so many 'proper ways' being taught as there are teachers to teach them."

Oh, dear. That pretty much did in "organized religion" for me, at a very early age (before double-digits!). I dared to ask the priest: if God was everywhere and God knew everything as we had been taught, why did I have to tell the priest my sins in "confession"? Wouldn't God know whether or not I was sincere in my penance? Why did God give me a brain if I'm not supposed to question?

I got sent to the principal's office.

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), May 22, 2000.

Patricia,

After you got sent to the principal's office, didn't you talk with your parents about it? It's too bad that some half-wit discouraged you from your faith, but if you go back and start *asking* these questions again, you'll find people who'll help you answer them.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 22, 2000.

Patricia, you said it exactly. "Why did god give me a brain if I'm not supposed to ask questions?" I've asked questions all my life about this and gotten forty dozen different answers. It's all man-made dogma and speculation. Pure Baloney! But if it makes you happy to *not* ask questions, then fine, go for it. But to me, the unexamined life is not worth living.

"The first person, who asks the first question, sows the first seeds of doubt and must be silenced." Who said that. I heard that quote years ago and I can't remember who said it. Help

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), May 22, 2000.

Frank, that "half-wit" (good one - did you know him? LOL!) wound up a rather revered Monsignor (sp?? it doesn't look right) in the Diocese of Brooklyn. No way HE was going to be "wrong". He just passed on a couple of years ago and you wouldn't believe the dignitaries that attended his funeral. Honestly, that wasn't the only thing I found wrong with the Church, but I don't think this is the time or the place to go into any great detail.

As to speaking with my parents, well, they kind of agreed with me, although it was mostly unspoken (as was just about everything during that time). They'd always get the same "complaint" about me on parents' nights (see if you can spot the irony here): She's so BRIGHT, but she QUESTIONS EVERYTHING...can't you DO something about her?

(I'll wait while you finish laughing or shaking your head in disbelief or nodding your head knowingly; whichever.)

It was a period of time where you just didn't question anything; my parents weren't going to say anything to them -- these people were intimidating, and that was by design. The stories my parents told me about being in parochial school in the 1950s were even worse. The public school system in the 1960s wasn't really an option for me (or so I was told).

I'm happy (and fairly well-adjusted [g]) now because I've let go of a lot of the "damage" that was done to me. I tend not to think of it as "damage" but as a growth experience, as is how I try to look at everything these days (nope, doesn't always work, but it doesn't stop me). I have my faith, but I don't discuss it with people (saves alot on "apologies" [g]). Thanks for your kind words, they are appreciated.

gilda, one of the things I never could reconcile, even as child, was why people would blindly follow *anything* without question. Weren't they in the least bit curious as to the reasoning behind something? Why was "questioning" so frowned upon? And why did the "adults" go along with this, at least publicly? My Mom always told me it was good to question; she said that I was bright, in part, BECAUSE I questioned, but I never really understood why she wouldn't say this to the "authorities". I understand now, and I know she regretted it for a long time.

Don't know who was the author of that quote, but it completely hit home for me.

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), May 22, 2000.

YO GILDA,GOD can handle questions,because HE,S got the answers. HE could even handle it 'when i told him to fuck-off. when i didn,t understand,what the TRUTH was. why do you let the past---ruin your future? so some dipshit baptist yo,yo gave a bad rep/ of JESUS. THE truth IS,man has a problem=sin[misses the mark]GOD solved the problem 2000 years-ago.JESUS paid the debt in full. all we gotta do is accept.--eph:2,6-8.

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), May 22, 2000.

man the debt-collectors are furious,it was a LANDMARK-CASE. and to all'who insulted & belittled my wife,she say,s to tell you'thr new house & ranch are nice.[if GOD is for you,who?can be against you] read it & weep,shagnasty filthy mouth flamers. -- al-d (dogs@zianet.com), May 11, 2000

JESUS paid the debt in full. all we gotta do is accept.--eph:2,6-8. -- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), May 22, 2000

al,

Are you working on the metaphysical installment plan here?

-- flora (***@__._), May 22, 2000.

Here's something to ponder. What makes you think that Donald Walsh (author of the book) is telling you the truth? Could it be because it's what you want to hear because then you can justify a sinful life? What if he is actually channelling a clever demon who is filled with pride and wants to tear God down and take his place?

-- Beerman (frbeerman@juno.org), May 23, 2000.

Patricia,

God I hope your last name doesn't start with a "W"!!

Anyway, you said,

They'd always get the same "complaint" about me on parents' nights (see if you can spot the irony here): She's so BRIGHT, but she QUESTIONS EVERYTHING...can't you DO something about her?

It's really a laugh/cry kind of thing. I got the same thing as a kid, and now have to hear it from my daughter's teacher. I try and listen polietly, but tell (daughter) in private that just because sometimes she has to keep her opinions to herself in school to keep out of trouble, that doesn't mean she's wrong to be asking them. I try and balance her disciplined (though stifling) environment with daddy/daughter walks & talks. Hope it works.

She's a good kid, but even now it's obvious she won't really fit in in school until she gets to college. I see my job partially as keeping her interested in learning enough so that she'll persevere with the things she's currently forced to do, until she is educated enough to do the things she wants and is able to do.

Back to the faith thing, well, forget it for now, I've gotten sidetracked, and can't seem to get back.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 23, 2000.

Now, now, Beerman. You asked me not to call you a bible thumper, I apologize, and them you pull a Jim Baker on me and call me a sinner looking for justification? That is crosing a boundary, buddy.

How dare you you ignoramus. I would put my life, my morals, my behavior up against your any day. Unless you are trolling this threas, there is no reason to pull that pentacostal bullshit on this thread. I do not need the threat of eternal damnation to act like a kind, considerate, hard-working human being, which it appears you do. How sad. There are no demons, beerman, no one pulling my strings.

I suggest you have another budweiser and you an your beerbelly can go on judging others who you know nothing about. What an ass.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 23, 2000.

Puuullleeeeeezzzzzze, al.d and all others who have said something similar to al.d statement, "why do you let the past---ruin your future?" God-dammit, my future was not, and is not ruined. I'm very happy with my life in spite of being ignorant enough to fall for Y2K. hee hee, Oh, well, just another learning experience.

I've said over and over that once I thew off the shackles of religion, it was like a great weight had been lifted from my shoulders, mind and heart. I was free of the superstition of religion. Believe in whatever faith you want to, but leave me out of it. If it makes you happy to accept whatever you've been told, by whatever religious leader all your life, FINE. If you never question religion or institutions, fine.

But I was told to always ask questions--and I have. Patricia, your young life sounds similar to mine, and I too try to see everything as a growth experience, for that is exactly what it is. And as to why people just swallow hook, line and sinker a certain religion, religious guru, or belief, or author without ever questioning it is beyond me. I think they don't want to rock the boat, or else they lack curiousity, or like sheep, they take the line of least resistance. After all Jesus called them his sheep.

Although I was raised a Baptist and you were raised a Catholic, it really doesn't make much difference, for if you ask enough questions, sooner or later, you hit a nerve when it's questioning religion. And you will often hear that "All those others are wrong. We are the ONE TRUE religion.

Frank, sure she could "go back and start asking these questions again", and I'm sure she'd find people who'd help answer them, but what good is that. Big Deal! What more do they know than anyone else? What more do they know now, than they did back then? Nothing. Just what's in the bible, or from the priest, electronic preacher, historian, pastor of the new guy on the block. Just someone's elses take on things, like Walsch--explaining the same old things in a different way--making it more palatable if you leave off some of the guilt and sin and focus on love as if it were a new idea. Certainly better to hear love and kindness than fear, hellfire and molten lakes of fire.

Patricia, although my mother encouraged me to ask questions, she really didn't think it was right to question religious beliefs. Now how's that for an open mind. My Dad was a lot different, for which I am so grateful. He felt *if* relgion and the bible couldn't stand scrutiny, then maybe they weren't all they were cracked up to be. I realized after I was grown that he just went along with the church business to not rock the boat, and to keep things peaceable at home. People were ostracized back then for not following the rigid status-quo.

I hated the 50's that I grew up in--talk about anal-retentive--I guess!! Go to church like a good girl. Don't ask questions, (and I'm talking about religion Frank, not school subjects). Of course religious schools, have this lap over....Wear the right clothes; don't be bizarre; don't swear (which I did) don't smoke (which I didin't). Don't run with the wrong girls, (I did sometimes as an act of definace, and because I felt sorry for them for being excluded.) Make good grades. (Did) Study you bible. (I did, found it as interesting as Grimm's Fairy Tales and just as gory.) And I was supposed to believe this?????

Hooray for the 60's where you could be yourself and not act like the daughter on Father Knows Best.

Patricia, I had a 90 year old man as a pen pal who was the author of The Vanishing Gods, a book he wrote the myths of religion. He too asked questions.

And even though I'm not a fan of Walsch, like FS "I do not need the threat of eternal damnation to act like a kind, considerate, hard-working human being...." Beerman, you can't run with the hares and hunt with the hounds."

Al.d if you, and a few others, think my life was ruined by my early religious brain washing you're wrong. But, I do resent like hell that people laid all this religious shit on me and other little kids. Most of them go along with it, and most of them never question why. But I resent it, and I bitch long and often, about being indoctrinated into this praying, repenting, sniveling crap, when I didn't want any part of it. My mother was a pain in the ass, about "accepting Christ as my savior," until I finally had a fit when I was about 23 and said, "Leave me the fuck alone about this god-damned, stupid religious bullshit, or I'm never going to set foot in your house again as long as I live." I meant it, and she knew it. Then we got along fine.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), May 23, 2000.

Frank, while you do have somewhat of a point when you suggest that I go back and "re-question", look at what your daughter is going through now.....seems to me nothing's really changed. (And I know this is JMO and I don't "know" you, but from what you've written, you seem to be handling it the right way and it will work.) Besides, like FS said, I don't need any "threats" for me to think and act and be a Good Person. I know I'm a Good Person -- who's constantly working on being a Good Person. I fall at times because I'm Human, but that's another Learning Experience. Maybe it comes with "maturity", but I have found that I actually have learned from my mistakes. Well, most of them anyway.

Oh yeah, my last name doesn't begin with "W"; not to worry :-).

gilda, it was kind of different in my house. My Dad was always the "church-going" one but he wasn't "rabid" about it; Mom was less religious, but to a certain extent could not understand why I had "rejected my faith" (as she put it). I explained that it wasn't "my" faith, that it had been forced on me and that I did not agree with the basic premise of what I was told I WAS SUPPOSED TO believe. Of course I got the "you're much too young to even KNOW that...." blah, blah, blah. Yeah right. I think she finally understands a bit, but she still is the kind of person to "go along with the crowd".

Uh, "beerman", let's turn this around a minute. What makes you think that (YOUR FAITH) is telling you the truth? Could it be because it's what you want to hear because then you can justify a (HYPOCRITICAL) life? What if (YOUR FAITH) is actually channelling a clever demon who is filled with pride and wants to tear (THE REAL GOD) down and take (HIS/HER) place?

Food for thought, eh?

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), May 23, 2000.

Patricia,

Good to hear about the "W", I thought I'd have to make a phone call (well, now that I think about it, I probably should anyway). :-)

With the school thing, believe me I understand your point. My problem is that I know my daughter is bright, her problem is with *discipline*. While throughout k-12 she'll be able to just amble in to class and do well, at some point she's going to need to have the skills to force herself to work even when she doesn't want to, if she really wants to succeed. This is the skill I want her to learn in addition to her 4 Rs. For her I think it's necessary to be in a disciplined environment, so she doesn't end up achieving only the minimum she has to in the long run.

OTOH, I don't want her to become *rigid*, just *disciplined*. Hopefully, I can find and walk this line for her.

Thanks for the cheap therapy,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 23, 2000.

(Sorry about going a tad off-topic here, FS.)

Frank this is too weird. Your daughter sounds exactly like I was at that age. (Should we take this to the "reincarnation thread"? But I'm not dead yet!) I was so bright in school that there were times I could have TAUGHT the subjects instead of sitting there learning them. The school would not skip me a grade ahead, so I ended up incredibly bored in many of the classes. This naturally led to me becoming a "class clown", despite still getting straight As.

It was a no-win situation for me.

The self-discipline part is so much more important than "the Rs"; without self-discipline, you're not going to learn "the Rs" anyway. Like I said before, it seems as if you have a good handle on it. She's learning the "discipline" in the form of having to keep many of her opinions to herself and understanding WHY she has to do it that way. I never really was taught to understand the WHY part (although I did figure out much of it -- I was just ornery), so discipline became a bit of a problem.

I look at it this way: They got lucky; I could have been MUCH worse than I was. LOL!

I'm not a psychologist (nor do I play one on the Internet) so the therapy is ALWAYS cheap :-)

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), May 23, 2000.

Patricia,

Thanks for the disclaimer (about not being in Psych), but what really was good for me was just to verbalize some of my concerns about the kids. This topic seems to occupy a fair portion of my time.

FS,

As P. said, sorry to hijcack the thread.

An undeducated J6P,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 24, 2000.

Frank,

Speaking as a former bright kid who coasted, she's not going to learn 'discipline' in that environment. She may learn other valuable coping skills, however.

Have you checked into distance learning for some of the topics in which she has a gift? { Standford has an Education Program for Gifted Youth. Johns Hopkins & Duke have interesting programs, too. Many colleges have 'early entrance' stuff nowadays. You can do a great to help her nurture her spark into a flame {just don't allow her situation to snuff it out!}}.

-- flora (***@__._), May 24, 2000.

{yeah, yeah I know, smartypants...no -d- in Stanford. LOL}

-- flora (***@__._), May 24, 2000.

Flora,

I wouldn't have posted on it though [g]. Some of the local community colleges around offer classes to high school students, so that is also an option, but my other concern is *maturity*. I've seen the result of parents pushing their kids up several grades, and IMHO it was never really a good thing. Have even seen highschoolers with GI complaints.

Anyway, I want her to stay with her class so she can have friends at her own level of development, and just try and supplement her education as practical.

I disagree about the discipline though, you HAVE to learn some in an RC school, anything else isn't acceptable. And truth be told she really *enjoys* the religious aspects of her education, she just wants to question everything. That doesn't bother me a bit. Actually, I can remember giving the priests (not the nuns) a REAL hard time around the 7th-11th grade, but they were more open to *hear* arguments, if not accept them.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 25, 2000.

You've got some good points there, Frank. I skipped an entire year in elementary school and thought my daughter would do fine if she started a year earlier than normally accepted. She felt "odd" at being the youngest in her "private" school. The decision to start her in school early was made by a psychologist family member who had tested her IQ. I said, "Should I teach her at home? Start her in school early?" His response was, "Both." What a fool he was. [or was *I* the fool for listening to his words?]

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 25, 2000.

Anita,

How could you be a fool for trying to do what you thought best for your kids? Maybe you'd do something different NOW, but that doesn't make you prior action WRONG.

I don't know everything, but when it's important, I try my best. What else can we do?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 25, 2000.