and are you willing to admit it?

-- -- (ants@kicker.com), May 20, 2000

Answers

She is a human being. Being mean to her serves no purpose, and ignoring the meaness displayed toward her has been a big mistake on my part. She admits to doing things that are wrong, and she should not do those things again. The incredible level of abusive remarks made to and about her on this and other boards is as much a wrong thing as anything she has done herself. Whoever does this to her is no better a person for doing it.

-- helen (home@home.home), May 20, 2000.

Dear ant:

No, and HELL no. Not just for myself, but for All those she has come against.

Helen: IF you only knew has anyone ever attacked your children?

BTW, I dont even wanna hear the old famous 'she didnt do it, give me proof crap'.

I stood silent long enough for her to 'show her true self'

When it comes to my children I AM A MOTHER and a GOOD ONE. I will always defend my children.

-----still putting the FUN in dysfunctional.

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), May 20, 2000.

BTW, I dont even wanna hear the old famous 'she didnt do it, give me proof crap'.

Yeah, the hell with "proof." Who needs it? LOL

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), May 20, 2000.

Thanks, Helen. It's nice that you and I have been able to mend our fences. However, there are people I just don't care to break bread with and I'm going to troll them when I get the itch, just like they troll me. THEY started it. I just use them as entertainment now.

Consumer,

Sounds to me like you protest too much.

Furthermore, a GOOD mother wouldn't spend as much time on the computer as you do. She would be reading to them,

cooking for them,

cleaning their clothes,

teaching THEM how to cook, clean, and read.

A GOOD mother would be:

out playing catch with her children,

teaching them to drive,

teaching them good citizenship,

or she would take them to a museum,

to a ballet,

to a symphony,

or teach them how to use the computer.

She would NOT sitting at the computer for HOURS a day in a fucking chatroom!

Oh, and before I forget, a GOOD mother would not condone premarital sex.

TTFN!

~*~

-- (Ladylogic@...), May 20, 2000.

So now "Your back too?" Oh goody.

Guess what? Your personal attacks on me dont do crap.

At least your leaving somebody else alone....

And FWIW, I'm not even 'going there' with you any longer regarding my sons, my 16 year old did see your post, his comment "oh 4get her".

BTW, best computer child you'd EVER hope to challenge....*snicker*

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), May 20, 2000.

I just decided not to leave yet. I think I'll hang around for an hour to watch all the bad mothers attack me like they did at Bok's, DeBunker's, and Biffy.

YOU ladies know who you are.

The fact that you are still posting and flirting with men (consumer) in a chatroom 4 and 1/2 months after the rollover should be clanging loud bells in your heads because there IS cause for concern.

Oh, and Deedah, I suppose you're going to jump on my ass for this again too.

Fuck you all and the horses you rode in on.

~*~

-- (Ladylogic@...), May 20, 2000.

Fuck her and the horse she rode in on! Slut, Bitch, Cock Sucker!

-- yipee (yipeee@yipeee.xcom), May 20, 2000.

consumer, I expected that kind of response out of you. You completely ignore making totally false claims against me, while you deny any responsibility for your internet habits. Boy, that figures. You are as unidimensional as any human being I've ever met.

Furthermore, that martyr attitude makes you look like an even bigger idiot.

But, hey! Who cares, right? Open another bottle and all this will go away! Your kids don't need you! They've lived this long without you, so why start worrying about being a good mother now?

~*~

-- (Ladylogic@...), May 20, 2000.

Slut, Bitch, Cock Sucker!

You have to come up with a lot better than that to insult me, peabrain.

All the names in the world don't amount to squat. That's why calling me nutz, psycho etc. makes absolutely difference to me. So, keep it up! I love it when my trolls can't come up with anything more original.

Furthermore, I suspect I just made a ton of new trolls. BFD! If you people are so dysfunctional you condone consumers actions, FUCK YOU.

~*~

-- (Ladylogic@...), May 20, 2000.

Ladylogic, you're so vain, I'll bet you started this thread.

And did I mention ANNOYING?

-- x (x@x.x), May 20, 2000.

As ALWAYS, you're wrong; idiot.

~*~

-- (Ladylogic@...), May 20, 2000.

I just decided not to leave yet. I think I'll hang around for an hour to watch all the bad mothers attack me like they did at Bok's, DeBunker's, and Biffy.

YOU ladies know who you are.

You are so JEALOUS of us...it isn't even funny anymore. The mere fact that we are married and have children, bothers the shit out of you.

YES...WE CAN HAVE IT ALL...husbands and SO's who love us and trust us...and give us space. We may have children or not...and if we do...they are LOVED and Provided for 24/7!!!

Your argument is getting old...

And one more question...how many on-line friends do you have? I have lots.

-- Peg (pegmcleod@mediaone.net), May 20, 2000.

Peg, feeling a little touchy?

Nice to see you disrobe finally. You'll never get over me telling you mothers shouldn't spend so much time on the internet when we were at DeBunker's will you? Tough. Get used to it. I've said it for 6 months now, and I'll say it as long as I feel like it.

Women with children shouldn't spend more than an hour a day on the internet unless their livlihood depends on it. Period.

You are so JEALOUS of us...it isn't even funny anymore. The mere fact that we are married and have children, bothers the shit out of you.

You're dead wrong. I have a GREAT life, and I wish the same for your children.

YES...WE CAN HAVE IT ALL....

Wrong. Somebody suffers. But what difference does that make? You're having a ball, and that's all that matters to you, right?

And one more question...how many on-line friends do you have? I have lots..

What a stupid question. Of course, I have online and real friends. However, one shouldn't judge the importance of relationships by quantity. I'd also like to point out that the number of your online "friends" is taking away time from your children.

~*~

-- (Ladylogic@...), May 20, 2000.

Excuse me Laura, but you're saying that any women with children shouldn't have internet access? That seems the gist of what you're implying. Really think you should be generalizing like that?

Also, that seems a little sexist to me. What about fathers?

-- cin (cin@cin.cin), May 20, 2000.

Laura,

Do you have any children...(that you know of?)

If the answer is yes, then you may be qualified to offer opinions on the subject.

If the answer is no, then you are NOT qualified, and please do us all a favor and shut up!

-- Peg (pegmcleod@mediaone.net), May 20, 2000.

p.s... One just never knows when their livelihood may depend upon their accrued ability to use a computer and navigate the web. I'd say we are better off because of it.

-- cin (cin@cin.cin), May 20, 2000.

LadyLogic,

If you had a Signficant Other you wouldn't spend so much time here baiting and fighting with people.

We know!

-- We Know (weknow@getalife.con), May 20, 2000.

I wish to object most strongly to two points raised so far:

Point one: Fuck you all and the horses you rode in on.

My horse and I are just good friends, nothing more.

Point two:

Peg, feeling a little touchy?

Nice to see you disrobe finally.

I don't know how you managed to see Peg disrobe, but I know I didn't get to see it, and this isn't fair at all. At the very least, someone should provide the pictures.

Thanks for your attention. "Please continue with the petty bickering."

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), May 20, 2000.

LadyLogic's "S.O." runs on C cells...

-- LOL (bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz@.zzzzzzzzz.), May 20, 2000.

Excuse me Laura, but you're saying that any women with children shouldn't have internet access?

No, that's not what I said. If you go back and read any of my posts on this subject for the last six months, I said women with children shouldn't be spending their time in chatrooms

You waste a great deal of your lives reading and writing posts that teach you NOTHING that will help you in your career. Have you ever read consumers posts? Have you ever read my trolls? Have you ever spent one minute of time flaming me? I rest my case.

You would be far better served surfing the internet and learning something that will benefit you and your children.

Also, that seems a little sexist to me. What about fathers?

I wasn't aware there were any fathers here that are primary caretakers. If there are, they are just as guilty.

Laura, Do you have any children...

NO. I made the conscious choice not to have children. However, if I did, I sure as hell wouldn't be spending my time in a chatroom.

If the answer is no, then you are NOT qualified, and please do us all a favor and shut up!

Oh, this sounds familiar: Shut up! Delete! You're fat! You're stupid! You're ugly!

When you don't like what I have to say, it's easy to say, "shut up", isn't it Peg?

You hate hearing the truth, don't you.

I am allowed my opinion. I was right about Y2k, and I'm right about this. You are just too hysterical and defensive about your internet use to understand it. Go figure.

I guess it's no surprise I've been flamed for months by women who spend too much time in an internet chatroom for saying, "women with children should not spend their time in chatrooms!" LOL! This is priceless!!

~*~

-- (Ladylogic@...), May 20, 2000.

Ah, hell. I'm getting bored with this conversation (for the third time in six months).

It was a waste of my time to talk to doomers, and it's a waste of my time to talk to women with children in chatrooms.

Continue to flame away. It's no skin off my nose if consumer drinks and sits in front of the computer all day.

I'm on my way out for the evening anyway.

~*~

-- (Ladylogic@...), May 20, 2000.

Uh, at the risk of drawing any attention to myself here, I'd just like to interrupt a moment to point out a few things.

Laura, this *isn't* a "chatroom"; it's a "forum" and you've made that mistake since you appeared on Debunker. You also called this forum a "chatroom" on another thread here just recently. While we do treat this place in a "chatty" way at times (and so do you!), there is a world of difference between the two.

The point Peg was trying to make was if you do NOT have children (as you state you don't), you have no business claiming to know what's best for anyone else's children; nor do you have any right to comment on what type of mother Peg or anyone else might be. Not having any of my own, my "children-related" comments have been confined to one thread on this forum wherein I commented on the seeming lack of parental responsibility these days -- OVERALL, not specific to any one person or group of people, and that was in response to a poster who felt "bible studies in school" would solve the world's ills.

Look at it this way: Does it not infuriate you (or at least have an effect to the point where you'll respond) when someone on this forum (or any other forum) claims to know anything about you? We've all seen you react to such situations. All they see (as is the same as all you see) is what is posted. Period. While one can get a "feel" for what others are like, one does not KNOW what others are like. And face it, you've been pretty nasty to a good number of posters here and elsewhere (myself included); and you've made excuse after excuse defending your actions. Where *I* was concerned, you weren't even close with your accusations -- not even once. Hell, I must be the World's Greatest Internet Troll to have been posting in all the threads you've accused me of posting on. You've been "flamed for months" because of your accusations against and your attitude toward *people*; not just "women". You did it on the original TB2K, you did it on Debunker, you did it on Biffy, you do it here, etc. The only reason you have "trolls" is because of things you've done to encourage and invite such actions. Do you see the pattern here?

I sat back and let you trash me all to hell on a number of threads on this forum until one day it was just the last straw (and some of the things you wrote deserved more than a response). But did I attack you? No, I told you straight-up. Even told you I was sorry if what was being said was true, and that was genuine. I have to tell you, I seriously doubt there are many people on this forum who feel as if you're being straight-up with them. So what type of treatment do you expect? You're basically getting back exactly what you give/gave to people. How can this be a surprise to you?

Yes, you have a right to your opinion, as you have a right to post here. You do not, however, have the right to comment on anyone else's lives *as you see them* because you don't really *know*. You started all this nonsense with your constant accusations of who your "trolls" were and who has a drinking problem and who's love-life is in a shambles and who's a racist and who's not a good mother, ad nauseum, and now you get upset because you're being accused of something? What gives you the right to butt into anyone's life.....period? You're "bored" with conversations you start and/or perpetuate? I don't think you really have any right to be upset and/or complain about anything; you kind of brought it on yourself.

Take this for whatever you feel it's worth. It's offered (once again) genuinely.

And now back to our regularly scheduled program.....

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), May 20, 2000.

If you add in all of your alias's, I think you would have the greatest number of postings, LL. Now WHO sits in front of the computer all day?

As IF anyone would take advice from a mentally unstable person such as yourself. I think you are one of the MOST ANNOYING people I have ever come across.

You sit there on your self-appointed throne and judge and criticize everyone. You, crazy one, are a horrible person.

-- x (x@x.x), May 20, 2000.

God loves you Laura, and so do I. May I come by and tell you of my love?

-- (RevSmileyFace@crystal.cathedral), May 20, 2000.

Laura,
It doesn't make sense to try to evaluate the impact of time spent on a particular pursuit (such as internet access) without considering the time spent on other pursuits (such as reading or watching television or playing bridge), the time one's children spend outside the home (at school or wherever) or other aspects of the particular family's situation.

-- David L (bumpkin@dnet.net), May 20, 2000.

Manny,

It's about time for a word from you!

-- Manny Fan (mannyfan@llis.looney), May 20, 2000.

LL

I have to agree. if you do not have children, then your opinions about how to raise them, love them or just experience them do not matter at all. not that your opinions are worthless, but without experiencing the joy/anguish/hassle/excitement of having a child your opinions are completely without relevence and meaning. don't mean shit, nada, zippo unless you walk the walk. in other words your opinions are without merit. it would be like me trying to tell you how to psychotically cyber-stalk someone. or having a women offer to tell me how my monkey should be spanked. totally irrelevent, don't you agree?

by the way, didn't all this crap about consumer and drinking start with my old pal Hawk? LL=Hawk???? i also do remeber the thread when LL wanted consumer's e-mail ady so she could send something for her sons birthday. i also remeber several folks shouting no don't give it to her. consumer, wasn't this something you mentioned on another thread about proof of LL spamming you?

-- Monkey Spanker (spanking@way.com), May 20, 2000.

Oh, and Deedah, I suppose you're going to jump on my ass for this again too.

Fuck you all and the horses you rode in on.

Sorry to dissappoint you.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), May 20, 2000.

Hmmm, I must admitt, of ALL i've seen YOURS is the FUNNIEST EVER.

me and my horses are just fine? Disrobing comment was the bomb, laughing so hard I can barely type. (or is it the booze?) sorry I couldnt resist.

If you all think this is a bad thread, try her original Con-Sumer, it was the most IMHO insane post yet, but as I said, it leaves others alone, I'm the new target. Not a martyr, NOT at ALL. Been standing on my own two feet for quite some time, I dont need pity, I handle my own.

Monkey Spanker, yes you are correct. It is getting to the point I honestly dont know who is and really its none of my business to know.But OTOH, I agree w/you.

Yes she wanted that b-day card for my son, yes, I did trust her, see I was raised to 'trust'. I DO not regret what my mom taught me. My mom also taught me to stand my ground, and I didnt have to come back on, so I lurked, I figured given enough time, her respect would fail.

True to form it did. Karma ring a bell LL?

looks like your getting yours.

OK now ALL MOTHERS AND FATHERS, time to LOG off, see Her Majesty has just now told us we DONT belong here.

Give me a break. I could give cheaper shots, but I dont wish to play gutter ball although I am good at it, as seen in some of my older posts.

I have had a great time here before the lunatic targeted me, and I still intend to do so. The pics thread is my ALL time favorite, and it makes me feel like I know ya'll a lil better.

As for flirting, my husband knows I email Capn and even asks me how hes doing. My hubby TRUSTS me as do I. Capn has been invited to visit also. So I flirt, big deal, all who 'know me' should know I am committed. And hey, flirting is fun.

Now, anyone wanna wrestle.

----consumer who STILL puts the FUN in Dysfunction. :-)

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), May 20, 2000.

Unkle Deedah, paragon of self-control!

-- manny's brother (thelord@loves.manny), May 20, 2000.

I admit I started this thread for Consumer. Way to go! You've got some good friends here! Keep Posting! (just carry a big stick) I would enjoy being envolved here but SHE scares me!(get you off L.L?)

Back to lurking....

F.S. really great posts you start!

-- -- -- (ants@kicker.com), May 21, 2000.

I've stayed out of this LL bashing, but I feel that I need to speak up now.

When this forum started, it was agreed that everyone would get a fresh start, no matter if they were a doomer or a polly. I was happy to see this, and it seemed like it was working. Laura was allowed to have her say, and people accepted her as another member of this on- line community.

Even though I was a doomer, there were always pollys that I considered friends. People like Flint and FactFinder. And since rollover, I've been trying to "make up" with others that I used to "fight" with, people like Stephen Poole. I think I've been somewhat successful.

Laura,

As you know, I stuck up for you when you were banned from TB2000. It wasn't right for you to be silenced, just bacause of your opinion. Just like it isn't right for Flint to be banned from the new EZ2000. But I changed my view when you started to spam the old forum. That wasn't right either.

And it still isn't. It isn't right for you to continue to spam Diane's new site. She wants to move on, and put Y2K behind her. What she did as a sysop was questionable, but that is history. Why can't you put this behind you too, Laura?

So, my "respect" for L.L. is going down hill quickly. However, this could change. It's not too late, but it is getting close...

<:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), May 21, 2000.

Its all in the timing isn't it Laura?

-- -- -- (ants@kicker.com), May 21, 2000.

consumer, I expected that kind of response out of you. You completely ignore making totally false claims against me, while you deny any responsibility for your internet habits. Boy, that figures. You are as unidimensional as any human being I've ever met.

Furthermore, that martyr attitude makes you look like an even bigger idiot.

But, hey! Who cares, right? Open another bottle and all this will go away! Your kids don't need you! They've lived this long without you, so why start worrying about being a good mother now?

~*~

-- (Ladylogic@...), May 20, 2000.

Seems like you are contradicting yourself just a wee bit?

First you said consumer makes false allegations against you, correct?

2nd you go on to say open another bottle.

That is the most irrational thought process I have seen posted by you yet.

You used to have my respect, but you need a reality check.

-- Sane One (Reality@check.seehere), May 21, 2000.

Sysman,

Lots of us were on Greenspun before many of the major characters.

When you say:

"When this forum started, it was agreed that everyone would get a fresh start, no matter if they were a doomer or a polly. I was happy to see this, and it seemed like it was working. Laura was allowed to have her say, and people accepted her as another member of this on- line community."

"Even though I was a doomer, there were always pollys that I considered friends. People like Flint and FactFinder. And since rollover, I've been trying to "make up" with others that I used to "fight" with, people like Stephen Poole. I think I've been somewhat successful."

I've got to ask you how you accept what has happened so easily?

Another clique was set up, rebuffing many of those whom you had legitimate conversations with, ostensibly about the topic at hand. Yet we are subjected to the harrassment of, not only 'known trolls' here, but continuous raiding parties from 'the chosen board'. I'm sorry, maybe I'm gettin' old & cranky - but what kind of bullshit is that?!

-- flora (***@__._), May 21, 2000.

In case any of you don't realize it yet, Consumer saved your board!

She stood up to the bully and laughed at her!!!!!

Good job Mom!!!!

-- -- -- (ants@kicker.com), May 21, 2000.

flora, I have always enjoyed your posts. But, I think on this you might be wrong. I honestly don't believe that there are "continuous raiding parties" on this forum. I like to troll this forum cuz it's fun. I never post on EZboard. It is not fun. I don't like right wing whackos. No sense of humor.

-- (I, troll@TB2000. Part Deux), May 21, 2000.

flora,

Yes, this place does continue to be a battle field. Yes, the "known trolls" are here. What I'm trying to say, is that some of us, me, have gone beyond Y2K. It doesn't matter who was right, and who was wrong. I don't think I'll ever be "friends" with Andy Ray, but I am willing to discuss things with him, without all of the name calling and flaming that we had on the old forum. Oh, don't get me wrong. There is still a bunch of flame here. Kids will be kids. But I for one, have been able to talk with some of my old "enemies" in a civil manner. Some of us haven't. Some of us never will grow up.

<:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), May 21, 2000.

Sysman,

Do you have a fork in your beard?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 21, 2000.

Frank,

No, but I have had my beard in some forkish places... <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), May 21, 2000.

"Good job Mom!!!!"

Oh oh

-- (~~~~~@.....), May 21, 2000.

Sysman:

With ALL due respect, I agree with 'some' of what you said re: known trolls, but OTOH, re: flaming, growing up, I can agree to disagree with you.

When you take someone and give them the 'trust' only to have it shattered, you can:

A. Ignore it

B. Respond to it in a civil manner

C. Get emotional (to wit I am guilty) when it came down to being called a drunk, an uncaring mother, I drew my line. I DO NOT regret anything I have said to LL re: my children NOR will I ever.

D. Get over it

I am all for free speech, this began with LL spamming Diane. Wrong is Wrong, she wont admit she is wrong, nor does she have to, although imho, it would be the right thing to do.

IMHO again, I believe it is her deranged desire to tear apart this forum. How many times does it take?

In my home w/my children I have a 3 strike you are 'out' rule ie it is discipline time. They know this, and respect it, when the are 3x they know there will be consequences.

I guess I just dont understand what it will take. EVERYONE on this forum KNOWS LL spammed Diane out of pure revenge.

Those who spoke out are now a what? clique? I hardly think so.

I was told by many here not to email her, I did, I paid, I'm getting over it.

Also take into consideration that some of us have never encountered the likes of inhuman people such as her. most are trusting, caring people. That is TRUTH.

I will NOT give her another chance period.

been there tried that.

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), May 21, 2000.

I was told by many here not to email her, I did, I paid, I'm getting over it.

totally unsubstantiated gossip. tell us why should we believe you?

-- (zzzz@zzzz.zz its late), May 21, 2000.

consumer,

Glad to see that you've checked in here. FWIW I'm 100% on your side. What you do with your life, and your kids, is your business. If somebody doesn't like it, fuck them, and the horses that they rode in on!

I understand your problem with LL. You are one of many on a Long List. I'm not "sticking up" for her here. She is wrong for doing what she did to Diane, and to you. Like I said, her chances of keeping me in the "respect" column are virtually nill at this point.

What I am trying to do here is have her admit that she is wrong. I know, it's a lost cause. Fat chance. Snowballs in hell...

I'm just commenting on what started this thread. There was a time when I thought that she was a human being. I guess it was a short lived. The time when this forum first started. The time when she did have a chance to have her say. It seemed to be working, for a while.

But hey, some things never change...

<:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), May 21, 2000.

What a shame, you guys are regressing again. You shouldn't waste your time biting on this troll bait.

-- Siggy (the@freud.meister), May 21, 2000.

-- Siggy (the@freud.meister),

other than DYSFUNCTIONAL people, what would you like to discuss???????????

-- (*******@***....), May 21, 2000.

This thread showswithout a doubt that the doomsrs last year are the samedipshits this year. (with the exceptoin of onnnnne.)

-- (need more @educa.shon), May 21, 2000.

LL is nutz! nutz! nutz! nutz!

LL is nutz! nutz! nutz! nutz!

LL is nutz! nutz! nutz! nutz!

LL is nutz! nutz! nutz! nutz!

LL is nutz! nutz! nutz! nutz!

I told ya before, but ya'll didn't listen. She is nutz!

Spamming because no one wants to hear from her.

Faking posts to gather support.

Stealing others' handles to post messages.

Lying.

Gathering info on others to harrass.

Apologizing to gain sympathy so as to gather more info to harrass.

Lying.

Did I mention lying? And she lies. And lies and lies and lies.

Need I go on? Don't trust the bitch! She is one crazy psycho!

Have you noticed that she has not denied any of what I have written? How can she? It's all true.

LL has no honor. She is the lowest of the low.

Perhaps her mother didn't spend enough time with her when she was growing up?

Question: Were abortions legal 47 years ago?

-- LL is nutz! nutz! nutz! (nutz@nutz.nutz.nutz.nutz), May 21, 2000.

Sumer!!!

Did ya say somethin' bout rasslin'? OH MY,that was soooo nasty,I think the internet is going to hell in a handbasket.

I get tickled at why so many give credibility to the accusations of Laura or anybody else for that matter.As if anyone gives a flyin' rats petute about the wacko opinions of one (or more) individuals in the neighborhood.I for one would rather see Sumer have a drinkin' problem than to see her afflicted with the "LL syndrome".Sumer is my friend,as many of you are,if you knew you could email me and I could help you,talk to you,joke with you etc...please do,moi is at your disposal.

I love sand rasslin'!!! and puttin' the fun back in fun!!!

Unk,

Yes,sometimes less *is* MORE.

Sysman,

Glad to see you in the foray and feelin the need to speak up,forget the past and join the party.This place is so unstuffy,mayhaps a bit dangerous,but cool nonetheless.How are your injuries?

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), May 21, 2000.

I'm just commenting on what started this thread.

Perhaps you are not aware of exactly what started this thread then. This whole mess started here with an accusation by Consumer that Laura spammed her. While attempts were made to ascertain the details of this situation, most of the information remains sketchy and Consumer refused to provide any more, simply saying that she "knows" it is her. Maybe it's Laura, maybe it's not.

As she said, there are several ways she could have dealt with the spamming and she chose the emotional route, calling her various names like lunatic, worthless witch, SOB, cyber-stalking whore, etc. However, what she says here is not quite true:

C. Get emotional (to wit I am guilty) when it came down to being called a drunk, an uncaring mother, I drew my line. I DO NOT regret anything I have said to LL re: my children NOR will I ever.

In fact, she "drew her line" in the above thread about spamming, long before the "drunk" accusations came about.

To date, there is still no further information about the spamming, as she refuses to provide any. She simply KNOWS Laura did it, just as so many people KNEW that Y2K would be TEOTWAWKI.

Laura had the same options Consumer did when these accusations came out. Unfortunately, it appears that she too, chose choice "C." This thread started by someone calling themselves "Right @ wing .conservative" echo Laura's familiar sentiment about women with children on Internet forums/chatrooms. Indeed, if it is Laura who started the thread, she should simply use her name, rather than hide behind a fake one as her trolls do.

And finally, we have this thread here started by "ants@kicker.com," a typical LL-hating Multi-Troll, who is here solely for the purpose of antagonizing Laura and watching the mess that results. How original.

None of this excuses Laura's comments, of course. Ideally, she should lay off the references to alchohol and realize that her arguments about women and chatrooms/forums will never be well-received in a chatroom/forum inhabited by women.

Still, I don't think she's the only person behaving irrationally here. I think both parties could best be served by going to their respective corners and chilling out a bit.

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), May 21, 2000.

Sumer told LL her son's name is Danny.

Since ant kicker is quite obviously Sumers son, we might logically conclude ant kicker is Danny.

Ant kicker if you are Danny, how long have you been posting and reading here?

-- (Just @ the .facts), May 21, 2000.

Hmmm: I agree. going to my 'respective corner', as for my reasons on not going in further about HOW i know, for now I cant. I have reasons.

BTW, FWIW, danny, my son did NOT start that thread, and if you wish to email OTFR to verify, please note, she/he HAS my permission to release and verify my son did not start that, nor did I. I am quite sure OTFR can verify this info.

regards,

consumer

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), May 21, 2000.

hmm, get out of my way. consumer, MAKE SURE YOUR SON DOES NOT READ THIS. (Yes, her son's name is Danny. I'll also bet Danny is Manny if that earlier post by "Manny's brother" is any indication. They DID show up at the same time -- and still do.) To everybody else on this thread: In case you fucking losers haven't noticed, I don't give a shit if I don't have the respect of people who are so fucking ignorant they don't know right from wrong. Let me spell it out for you morons: Consumer is a mother who gets drunk daily as far as I can tell, she spends WAY too much time in this chatroom (Yeah, yeah, who the fuck cares if I call this place a chatroom or bulletin board?) She flirts with men AND women, AND her son has been watching. You people are a bunch of twisted fucking idiots. You ENCOURAGE dysfunction in the world by condoning this kind of crap. Some of you have even called yourselves DeBunkers and that makes me sick. You've spent your time flaming ME when I've wanted make the world a little bit nicer for the children of these sick women. OBVIOUSLY I've never made any difference, but that doesn't mean I'm going to quit trying. Did you see me quit trying to warn people about Y2k? Fuck No! And in case any of you twits haven't noticed, five months ago I tried to get people to quit spending so much money on preps, I told them NICELY to save their receipts for the crap they bought, I told them not to leave their spouses, and what did I get?... Banned, flamed, outed (at least that's what Diane thought she did) ridiculed and spammed at MY address. Guess what? I'm tired of this shit. You assholes might not like what I have to say, but OTFR has chosen NOT to delete me so I'm going to say any fucking thing I want, any fucking way I want, and I don't fucking feel like saying anything nicely to you fucking MORONS anymore so....

Kiss my Pretty, white, powdered butt!

~*~

-- (Ladylogic@...), May 21, 2000.

I have NO idea why that didn't format correctly, and I want to make damn sure you idiots read this so: hmm, get out of my way. consumer, MAKE SURE YOUR SON DOES NOT READ THIS. (Yes, her son's name is Danny. I'll also bet Danny is Manny if that earlier post by "Manny's brother" is any indication. They DID show up at the same time -- and still do.) To everybody else on this thread: In case you fucking losers haven't noticed, I don't give a shit if I don't have the respect of people who are so fucking ignorant they don't know right from wrong. Let me spell it out for you morons: Consumer is a mother who gets drunk daily as far as I can tell, she spends WAY too much time in this chatroom (Yeah, yeah, who the fuck cares if I call this place a chatroom or bulletin board?) She flirts with men AND women, AND her son has been watching. You people are a bunch of twisted fucking idiots. You ENCOURAGE dysfunction in the world by condoning this kind of crap. Some of you have even called yourselves DeBunkers and that makes me sick. You've spent your time flaming ME when I've wanted make the world a little bit nicer for the children of these sick women. OBVIOUSLY I've never made any difference, but that doesn't mean I'm going to quit trying. Did you see me quit trying to warn people about Y2k? Fuck No! And in case any of you twits haven't noticed, five months ago I tried to get people to quit spending so much money on preps, I told them NICELY to save their receipts for the crap they bought, I told them not to leave their spouses, and what did I get?... Banned, flamed, outed (at least that's what Diane thought she did) ridiculed and spammed at MY address. Guess what? I'm tired of this shit. You assholes might not like what I have to say, but OTFR has chosen NOT to delete me so I'm going to say any fucking thing I want, any fucking way I want, and I don't fucking feel like saying anything nicely to you fucking MORONS anymore so....

Kiss my Pretty, white, powdered butt!

~*~

-- (Ladylogic@...), May 21, 2000.

Gilda, since you are one of the few people on the board whose opinion I value, will you please tell me how I'm being irrational?

I know for a fact that those women spend hours a day in live chat and this room. They do it to the exclusion of their jobs, and their family. I've lurked in live chat when they've said so! Why is it so irrational to object to that?

If I thought I was ever going to change them, I agree that would be irrational; but I don't. I just state my opinion when something bothers me. So, just how am I being irrational? (If you'd rather e- mail me the answer, send it to Ladylogic2000@cs.com.)

~*~

-- (Ladylogic@...), May 22, 2000.

Do you really think anyone would trust you enough to email you?

You are delusional, bitch. Anyone who emails you would need their head examined.

btw, what corner do you work on?

-- LL went out for the evening... (lady@the.evening?), May 22, 2000.

For cumsumer who thinks that I'm a "a lady of the evening".

I am NOT. Any idiot would know that my lifestyle is due to my family's oil wells.

-- (Ladylogic@......), May 22, 2000.

Oh, so you go out to do the guys at the wells?

Guess you won't need any lube, eh?

-- LL is a oil whore? (well@driven.lotsa.mileage!), May 22, 2000.

Hey, bitch. You really think any amount of powder will make your rippling waves of cellulite "pretty"?

You don't need _powder_ on that lardass of yours, you need grout and a putty knife to apply it.

It still won't be "pretty", but at least it won't be as nauseating as it is now.

I repeat -- have any of you seen the _pictures_ of that aging old nag?

Pretty? Give it a rest, you used-up old bitch. Your ass is "pretty" like my shit "smells sweet".

-- No one (wants@the.old.nag), May 22, 2000.

Gilda, since you are one of the few people on the board whose opinion I value, will you please tell me how I'm being irrational?

I'm not Gilda, but I play one on TV. I believe the "irrational" comment refers to posts like the following:

For my last feat of the day, I'd like to say:

Fuck off, Old Git.

Fuck off, Patricia.

Fuck off, Peg.

Fuck off, Diane.

Fuck off, hmm.

Fuck off, Sysman.

Fuck off, Mark.

Fuck off, capnfun.

Fuck off, CJS.

Fuck off, consumer.

If I've missed any other dipshits, consider yourselves fucked anyway.

Do you these comments fit your definition of "rational" based on the thread so far?

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), May 22, 2000.

Wow, even her little pet hmmm has turned against her. Quelle horreure

-- x (x@x.x), May 22, 2000.

Wow, even her little pet hmmm has turned against her.

LOL, I love how the trolls exaggerate requests for evidence and providing clarifications as "turning against" someone. Reminds me of the old days. If you're not prepping for a 10, then you MUST be dissuading people from prepping at all and causing millions of untold deaths!! Either you're FOR Laura or you're AGAINST her, right x? There is no in between!!

And I must also point out that I am not her pet. What I was doing to her leg was merely to relieve an itch, nothing more. Now, if you'll excuse me, it would seem that she has refilled my water bowl, so I must take my leave of you.

Quelle horreure

Is that a kind of omelet? Mmmmmm....omelets...

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), May 22, 2000.

(OK, so I *am* "irrational".) Here goes yet another of my (now-infamous) Exercises In Futility.

LL, a question for ya. You wrote "...I just state my opinion when something bothers me..."

Fair enough, especially as that is a primary function of this forum -- to state one's opinion(s). But (you knew that was coming) ..... why is it when someone else (i.e., *Me*) does the same, the result from you is this:

(blah.....) "Fuck off, Patricia" (blah.....) "...dipshits..." (blah.....) "...idiots..."

(I must say I am honored to have been *Second* behind none other than Old Git.)

Conspiring Minds Want To Know.....................

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), May 22, 2000.

Venkman?

-- Athena (not@chan.ce), May 22, 2000.

Why would someone post the following if it WASN'T Consumer's son.

In case any of you don't realize it yet, Consumer saved your board! She stood up to the bully and laughed at her!!!!! Good job Mom!!!! -- -- -- (ants@kicker.com), May 21, 2000.

_____________________________________________________________________

Consumer=ants@kicker.com and other booze induced handles.

-- Put (down@the.bottle), May 22, 2000.

why is it when someone else (i.e., *Me*) does the same, the result from you is this:

YOU told me FIRST that I didn't have a right to my opinion:

you have no business claiming to know what's best for anyone else's children; nor do you have any right to comment on what type of mother Peg or anyone else might be...

I thought you said I don't exist in your world, Pat? I wish you'd stick to your word. I tell you what, why don't you go back to having tea and crumpets with your friend Peg? However, in my OPINION you aren't a true friend because a true friend wouldn't keep a woman with young children in chatrooms for six months (or has it been longer?) PLEASE do not address me again. I don't ever want to spend another second addressing your inane comments again.

Peg,

I'll call your bluff. As soon as I get my scanner running (probably today or tomorrow) I'm going to post my pictures just so you can eat your heart out. I'm going to post that glamour shot you saw, (which is two and a half years old by the way) AND I'm going to post my CURRENT pictures. Hows that, bitch?

Hmm, thanks for a very logical explanation. However, I find it illogical that *I* am harassed for worrying about the precious young souls that belong to those mothers. NOT one person has agreed with me here, (including you) and I find THAT illogical. (Deja vu! The same thing happened to me on my oil thread.)

Why am I not surprised.

-- (Ladylogic@....), May 22, 2000.

fuck off.

-- (Ladylogic@.....), May 22, 2000.

Yep, about what I expected.

"...inane comments..."????? ROTFL...

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), May 22, 2000.

One thing I found most interesting when Laura approached this subject previously in chat and on Debunkers was the total disregard for age of children. Another I found interesting was the singling out of "chat room" activities as though there were a difference between that and conversing for hours on the telephone. Let's take a look at the criticisms offered:

Furthermore, a GOOD mother wouldn't spend as much time on the computer as you do. She would be reading to them,

Reading to children is extremely important [particularly before children learn to read on their own. My children learned to read at home when they were 4. This didn't mean I stopped reading to them from books beyond their level, but after a few more years they were unwilling to listen while *I* read, as they wanted to read "on their own." To this day they read "on their own." When younger, a nosey neighbor stopped by and poked his head in the front door. He said, "You have three kids. Why don't I hear anything?" "They're in their rooms reading."

cooking for them,

This AGAIN depends on the age level, not to mention one's desire to establish skills independent of the mother. Of course very young children need someone to cook for them, but a home that encourages independence establishes an environment where the plastic plates are low enough for the child to reach. My kids were making peanut-butter and jelly sandwiches on their own when they were 2 or 3. My job consisted of cleaning up after them. My kids were also doing dishes when they were 2 or 3. Kids LOVE to play in water, and it's important to establish responsibilities at an early age.

cleaning their clothes,

Age-dependent AGAIN. My kids started doing their own laundry by age 8. I did the mending if their clothes needed it and handled unremovable stains by sewing their favorite character over the stain, making that item of clothing a new favorite.

teaching THEM how to cook, clean, and read.

Again...all handled by the time the kids were 8 years old.

A GOOD mother would be:

out playing catch with her children,

This is child-dependent. Surely we teach them HOW to play catch, but with siblings and other children with which to play, the preference on their part is to play catch with OTHERS if they choose to play at all.

teaching them to drive,

I don't agree with this one at all. The parent is typically the WORST person to teach their child to drive. At 15, teens go through Drivers' Education at school. If they pass the written test, they get a driver's permit, allowing them to drive with a licensed driver. This may include the parent, if the parent has the patience. I, personally, had little patience for that with my first. My second was a much safer driver and I took her out far more than others. My third was much like my first. Family friends had much more patience with my 1st and 3rd children for this effort.

teaching them good citizenship,

This is "taught" by example.

or she would take them to a museum, or to a ballet, to a symphony,

It goes far beyond this, but none of these things can be done while kids are in school or asleep at night, or doing their homework, or playing with their friends, etc.

or teach them how to use the computer.

Again, although I taught my kids how to use the TI-99 when they were little, they're learning this in school starting in pre-school.

She would NOT sitting at the computer for HOURS a day in a fucking chatroom!

It seems to me that Consumer already stated that she works at an insurance company and it's their slow period. Her boss has no problem with her logging onto the forum during working hours if she has nothing to do for the company. Many firms prefer internet use versus reading a book [which is more obvious to their clients.] Her husband has no problem with her logging onto the forum evenings while he may [like so many other mates] choose to watch sports on T.V., read, or engage in an activity that isn't typically shared. Her youngest child is 16, so he's probably working a part-time job after school and homework is out of the way. Of course he could be attending football practice, swimming practice, etc.

Oh, and before I forget, a GOOD mother would not condone premarital sex.

Nowhere did I see consumer CONDONE premarital sex in her son, but this is a moral judgment based on religious values. If Consumer or her son don't share the religion on which these values are based, they're free to make their own decisions regarding this issue.

Dysfunctional families certainly exist, but I've seen judgment before facts on this one. I remember stating that I had 3 kids and my family was automagically labeled dysfunctional because I was posting at Debunkers when I should have been wiping someone's runny nose. The fact that my kids were grown [as are Consumer's] didn't matter.

The goal of a parent is not to raise CHILDREN. It's to raise GROWN- UPS.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 22, 2000.

Try again

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 22, 2000.

I guess that ansured the respect question.

Back to lurking.

-- -- -- (ants@kicker.com), May 22, 2000.

I honestly dont know 'why' I bother. But anyhow, for the record, I am not antkicker, see prior post If ANY would like to email OTFR and confirm that I am not ant, OTFR, you have my permission. Also for my son. Who has NEVER posted here, and never will, see he does the teen thing, like roller skating, movies, puters, chat w/REAL friends, listens to CD's and plays puter games.

He is not interested in anything pertaining to this forum, the only time he ever commented was to say 4get her. I would not allow him to see the sick response from LL above directed at me.

FWIW, LL, IF I chose to address you, it WILL be under my OWN name as i am NOT afraid to post my opinions.

Face it, you are accusing me and I have done the same, I decline from saying anything further to you being mean/hostile, as it only makes me look like the heavy. I catch on quick, why dont you?

Now enough of you, and i will NOT address you any further, it is NOT a truce, I choose to ignore you, and as a female, I believe thats what 'you' hate the most. So go on now, do as you choose its a free forum, not a chatroom, btw. I have addressed you and wasted my time on you long enough.

It is clear to all when you attack someone on mothering skill, (and because of your hatred for me) you got the rest of us females pissed, hey, thats your problem....heres a real nice hint, THINK before you post.

da da da, thats all folks......

---regards, consumer

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), May 22, 2000.

Hmm, thanks for a very logical explanation. However, I find it illogical that *I* am harassed for worrying about the precious young souls that belong to those mothers. NOT one person has agreed with me here, (including you) and I find THAT illogical.

LOL, actually if you look at the thread, you'll notice that most of the posts don't even address the issue at all. Indeed, this post was started by a troll whose sole intention was to see you get riled up. Most likely this troll is unable to even comprehend the issue, what with it being beyond the level of your average first grade student and all.

Outside of the obvious trolls who harass you for their own reasons, the only ones harassing you about this issue are people who take it very personally. And why wouldn't they? Imagine yourself as a mother being told you are a "bad mother." Wouldn't that piss you off in the most extreme way??

To some extent, I do agree with you on this issue, but only in the most extreme cases. If indeed women were admitting to you in Bok's chat that they were there constantly, to the exclusion of all else, including their own children, I can understand the concern. However if they are merely in there "a lot," then you're in the difficult position of determining how much is too much. An hour? Two hours? 5 minutes? None at all? Indeed, David L's comment above says it best, so I'll just quote it here:

It doesn't make sense to try to evaluate the impact of time spent on a particular pursuit (such as internet access) without considering the time spent on other pursuits (such as reading or watching television or playing bridge), the time one's children spend outside the home (at school or wherever) or other aspects of the particular family's situation.

-- David L (bumpkin@dnet.net), May 20, 2000.

If you, like Consumer, are somehow privy to more detailed information than has been revealed so far, you may indeed know the details that David L has listed above. The rest of us, however, are not aware of this information, so it should hardly be a surprise that we don't quite share your intensity.

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), May 22, 2000.

Getting back to the original question of this thread:

Anyone out there still have respect for L.L.?

This pre-supposes that there was respect originally.

The answer appears to be no. Not surprising, is it?

-- LL has/had no respect. And is losing what tolerance was afforded her. (LL@lost.cause.go.away), May 22, 2000.

Getting back to the original question of this thread:

LOL. The "original question of this thread" was merely a troll post, but we had the audacity to sidetrack into a real issue. So, of course, our troll has to get us back "on topic."

Poor troll, perhaps you can get the moderator to "snip" all the non- troll "issue" posts for you. LOL!!

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), May 22, 2000.

Oh here we go. Another fuckin' loser puts her two cents in. Not condoning premarital sex is NOT a religious view in this case. I have too much to do to argue this shit with you, Anita. You've already made it clear that you've prepared your children for premarital sex.

One thing I found most interesting when Laura approached this subject previously in chat and on Debunkers was the total disregard for age of children.

That's not true. As usual with my trolls, you twist my words or completely ignore them altogether. I have always said women with young children. Why should I bitch about adult children? However, if you have children who are say, 16 or 17, you still need to be thinking about their welfare, and how you can help them though the tough time that ALL teenagers go through. How can you be thinking about how you can help them if your thoughts are about some of the idiots in this chatroom? How much time have you spent writing the posts you wrote this morning?

Furthermore, you need to be thinking about what kind of a role model YOU (generic you) are because they're watching and learning.

Another I found interesting was the singling out of "chat room" activities as though there were a difference between that and conversing for hours on the telephone. Let's take a look at the criticisms offered:

I don't condone hours on the phone either. (However, a lot less communication is done via chatrooms because it takes longer to type. Besides, I thought we were talking about moms?) Whatever... What do children talk about on the phone? The latest hairstyle, the newest pop icon, what little Johnny tootin' farter said to Mikey Spikey about Hairy Mary instead of engaging in a productive or soul- satisfying hobby like painting, reading the classics, learning how to play an instument, hiking, or whatever. They get enough "people" crap at school, so they don't need to be hanging on the phone all fucking night.

That reminds me; the smartest and most well-behaved child I've ever met in my life is Z. His parents home-schooled him and encouraged him to learn how a computer WORKS, and how to use it...not how to chat in one. You saw him around when he was trying to decide the severity of Y2k, but you don't see him now do you? He, and his parents, are too smart for that.

This discussion is taking up too much of my time right now, with too many fucking idiots. Trying to argue with rocks is a waste of my time.

-- (Ladylogic@.....), May 22, 2000.

BTW, I also forgot to add my 16 year old LOVES the telephone.

Any other mom's have this problem? With respects to teenagers of course.

---regards, consumer

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), May 22, 2000.

I didn't say what I wanted to say, as clearly as I wanted to say it in that last post.

My point is, when these women are thinking about -- or spending time sitting at their computer writing about consumer, or Invar, or anyone else who makes absolutely no contribution to their lives, they are NOT thinking about their children and what they can be doing to be a better parent.

Hmm, I absolutely agree with David also. People SHOULD have a hobby, and spending an hour a day in a chatroom is fine! It is the extremists in this chatroom that have, and always will, bother me. It is the women who read and post here in the morning, and then go to the live chatrooms at night. It is the extremists that spend a couple of hours a day here, TO THE EXCLUSION OF THEIR FAMILIES, that bothers me. You can tell most of them by the number and content of their posts. You can also tell by going to their IRC chat... Safe Haven before that,.... Bok's before that,... and throw in regular e-mails and you have some wasted children. That is NOT healthy, they know it, and I know it, but it's an addiction they refuse to recognize because it's fullfilling THEIR needs.

Pat,

I'm certainly not surprised you would make an inane comment like that. That's precisely what I would expect out of a rock.

-- (Ladylogic@......), May 22, 2000.

Oh my! Heaven forfend! LL doesn't have the time to post on the forum.

But she has time to post on the forum to say she doesn't have time! LOL

And hmm has nothing to say, as usual. Just craps merrily along the forum, thread by thread, posting its little turds here and there.

-- ssssshhhhh (itsn@p.time), May 22, 2000.

Shut up, Hawk

-- (picking@feathers from the.carcass), May 22, 2000.

Anita,

Awesome post. I somehow 'missed it' till just now. I believe I addressed the fact my 16 yr old does hold part-time job as a bussboy at a nice eatery here. He will be picking up more hours soon as school is about out.

He 'used' to be into sports, but his fav is rollerskating, he uses his own money from working, unless hes a lil short on cash,then I help out.

You are correct I have never addressed the 'pre-marital sex issue'.

For you Anita, I will, not that you had to know, LOL, cuz IMHO, I feel I know you a lil better than that. :-)

I was very hurt when my son got his SO pregnant, he knew my stand on that. He came to my home crying, he said he knew he was to young on trying to 'raise' a child. I say 50/50, she is much older than he as well, so I blame them both.

As I held him in my arms as he cried (2nd time I ever seen him cry as a young adult), he promised me he would do the right thing. He got a job as construction helper and is now in process of receiving his GED.

He is VERY proud, rarely asks for anything. But, being a mom, and now a grandmom, I do the care package stuff. Did I like the entire situation? No. But I am his mom, and WILL ALWAYS love him, as well as help, but NOT ENABLE. There is a difference.

Yes I am still working, took today off, hey, I can do that, my boss is super cool w/me. I'll go in tomorrow on my original day off to help out. Flexiblity, ahhh yesss!!!!!! and I love my job.

Spent all day yesterday, cleaning, doing gardening, made some great Chicken Fettuccini (sp). All is done, so tonite we can have leftovers and I can relax. Hubby works 3rd shift so he sleeps alot.

He is online EVERY morning, but he always brings me a newspaper in am and we enjoy coffee and current events.

Well, this Bad Mom gotta run, pick up my danny danny from school.

BTW, about the driving... :-( danny is next. think i'll let hubby handle that one. LOL.

Thanks again anita, you are one cool person, if I had the choice to meet ya, I'd love to.

regards, consumer

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), May 22, 2000.

Laura:

You never asked the age of my children before labeling my family dysfunctional. The telephone issue didn't reference children, BTW. I've heard of women who spend hours talking on the phone as well. How much time did I spend posting this morning? I don't know. My SO is on vacation in Vegas, my kids are off on their own. I'm alone here. Should I account for my time to someone?

Regarding condoning sex outside of marriage, I educated my children on sex when they were quite young. When they came to me and said they WANTED to be sexually active, I set up appointments with a medical doctor to provide more education and birth control. You already knew this. What has this to do with Consumer? Her son didn't practice birth control. I doubt she had any CLUE that he was interested in sexual activity.

This reminds me of a funny story, however, of the mother of one of my girls' friends. She wouldn't allow her daughter to stay overnight at our house because SO and I aren't "legally" mated. I conversed with this mom via E-mail in the last year and her daughter has moved in with her boyfriend. I said, "I thought this was the big fear that kept Kathy from staying overnight at our home." She replied, "Anita, I've come a LONG way from my thinking at that time."

It IS a religious issue, Laura, as well as one that "dates" those who can't understand it. You were married and divorced, as was I. You ENJOYED marriage, despite its end, and can't conceive of another relationship that doesn't include marriage. I DIDN'T enjoy marriage, and can't conceive of being married again. Different strokes, I guess.

Consumer:

Social interaction is EXTREMELY important during the teen years and teens would much rather converse with their peers than their parents. My parents complained about how long I used the phone, and my dad eventually provided an extension in my room. I never went that far with MY kids, but school provides limited time to share thoughts with real friends, so either their friends will be at your home, or your kids will share thoughts with them on the phone. It's perfectly natural.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 22, 2000.

Subject: Anyone out there still have respect for L.L.?

and are you willing to admit it?

I respect people until their words or actions lead me to conclude they don't deserve it. That happened the day she spammed the old forum. I stopped reading any threads started by or about LL a long time ago, most have no substance. I only clicked onto this one because it was on the top of the new answers and had a lot of replies. After reading about 20 posts I realized that reading the rest of this thread would be a waste of time. Indeed this paragraph is probably a waste of 2 or 3 good minutes.

-- Outta beer (Eastof thesmokestack@usa.here), May 22, 2000.

So, what happened exactly, LL? Did Miss Polly find it less than amusing when ya switched the baby powder with confectioners sugar? OUCH! Talk about a wild hair across yer ass! Hey, good thing it's a DRY heat! Don't worry, though. I'm sure you'll dredge up some new loser with a pocket protector in one of the multiple chat rooms you live in.

I suppose I have to accept that you're a human, cause it appears that you can use a computer, but I truly couldn't give a rat's ass whether you live or die. You are nothing more than a mildly interesting spectacle, much like a car wreck on the highway. Once you are gone, or we move on to the next, more interesting oddity, you'll be relegated to the place you belong. Complete and utter obscurity.

Have a GREAT day!

Dan V.

-- Jimmy Splinters (inthe@dark.com), May 22, 2000.

To the folks who keep bringing up the original question:

I didn't think this respect subject one worthy of response, so I didn't respond. Once the thread had moved along to issues of parenting, I felt I could provide some input. Despite Gilda's comments on how one needn't be a parent to comment on parenting, I don't think one can fully appreciate the fact that one is dealing with a thinking human being until one has a child of their own. My three were all similar in appearance, but totally different in nature. There was no one-size-fits-all parenting manual.

It's quite easy for Laura to state her opinions on how she would raise children. It's similar to a child playing with a doll, wherein the child declares what the child WILL do and the doll responds. One has the choice of hovering over the child [as with the doll], or encouraging the child to develop independence that will help it survive once it leaves the "nest." Encouraging independence is not at all to be equated with desertion or an act of ignoring. It simply consists of teaching the child and then allowing the child to unfold in a natural, healthy way, rather than an imposed, artificial way. The end result could compare a Stepford Wife with a REAL woman.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 22, 2000.

I don't have to own a Stingray to know it sucks gas.

*I* was a child once so that DOES qualify me to talk about children. *I* had decent parents and I know decent parents. I also know BAD parents, and I calls 'em as I sees 'em.

The bottom line is; there are too many hours in a day to do the important things, much less unimportant things, ESPECIALLY if you're a parent.

Anita, just because your family isn't there now, doesn't mean you don't/haven't spent way too much time in the chatrooms at other times. I've learned a lot of things from you, and I appreciate most of your posts, however, I honestly do worry about your girls.

Dan V. And yet ANOTHER loser steps in. I'll bet you're that guy in Tucson whose advances I ignored at DeBunker's, right? Figures. The only people who flame me are people I've yelled at or ignored -- which touches a nerve. Even if some stretch of the imagination you're not the posts written by 'lil Jimmy Splinters haven't been worth my time reading so you don't exist to me anyway.

That's it consumer, keep telling us about your dysfuncional family. You just keep proving my point. You have the day off and what do you do? I'll bet you're drinking AGAIN and obviously you've been posting ALL morning. You need to get off the computer AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR BUSINESS/FAMILY.

Christ, I hope you aren't hanging around here just to spite me.

-- (Ladylogic@.....), May 22, 2000.

LL, you just keep on proving what an idiot you are.

I'll let you know a few things about today. [not that you care, I'm sure!]

I've been logged onto the internet for four hours so far. I have been up for 4 and one half hours. I have read the paper online, checked the stock market periodically online, answered a few emails and sent some others.

I balanced my checkbook, paid some bills. I am doing laundry. And hanging it outside since it is so nice out today. I spread insect control granules out back so that the dogs won't get fleas or ticks. I watered the plants outside on the patio. Watered the lawn to soak the granules in.

I cleaned and dusted around the house, emptied the dustbins, and sealed the trashbag for collection tomorrow.

I have vacuumed and mopped the floors, and still had time to post on several forums!

It's called multi-tasking. Try it sometime.

Dinner is marinating in the fridge, the dishes are done, the kitchen is clean with the exception of one coffee cup which I am using. And I made lunch for three people. T'was a surprise visit but very welcome.

We laughed and laughed about your rants and illogic. And even hmm got a mention in the conversation. The comment, to paraphrase, "That one has no life, no intelligence, and no goals."

So, here we are. LL is still an idiot, and I can look forward to a wonderful dinner with my family, in a clean house with healthy pets, and a good nights sleep in a bed with clean sheets. While you go out again tonight to 'work.'

LOL ha ha ha ha

-- LL is nutz! nutz! nutz! nutz! (nutz@nutz.nutz.nutz), May 22, 2000.

Did you do all this before or after you took your medication?

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), May 22, 2000.

"I honestly do worry about your girls." No need to worry. They're both fine. My own MOTHER doesn't worry about my kids anymore, and she had far less faith in my parenting skills than YOU.

I picked up the oldest girl from the airport last night after she'd spent a week visiting friends and family in Chicago. We had dinner together, and as she left she said, "Thanks for dinner, the ride, and the birth." LOL.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 22, 2000.

As a matter of fact, the medication I take for my arm injury is once a day, so i take it around the middle of the day. It tends to make me sleepy, so I try to get as much done as possible before I take it. then I can take a short nap, before everyone gets home.

I just finished making the beds[4], changed the filter in the air handler, weeded a bit in the garden while I was picking tonights salad ingredients, set the table for tonight, and brought out the BarBQ grill to cook dinner on tonight. The mail came, I sorted that, paid two more bills, and actually caught the postman as he was going back down the street so now those are posted and done.

Filed the bill stubs, cleaned my coffee cup and put it away. Sorted the fridge and made a shopping list for tomorrow.

Now I'm gonna play a bit with the dogs out back since the grass is dry now. Then they get a cool down period while their dinner is readied. While they eat I take my nap if I am so inclined. Then when the family gets home, in about two hours usually, I can sit with them and talk about their day, while brushing the dogs outside. SO starts the grill after a bit of news on the telly, the rest of dinner is done and chilling. [Coconut cream pie for desert! Out of a can, though, the nuts on the tree aren't ready yet.]

More email. Several posts on other forums. And here I am.

And so it goes, LL is an idiot, and hmm has no worthwhile thoughts. Oh, almost forgot, I'm reading a couple of books, too. One on gardening and a cute one about the spirituality of dogs.

Did I mention that I work from home as well? Not that you're interested, of course!

-- LL is nutz! nutz! nutz! nutz! (nutz@nutz.nutz.nutz), May 22, 2000.

Thanks for keeping us informed of all that's going on in your life. Be sure to let us know if you get engaged to Mr. Polly.

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), May 22, 2000.

"*I* was a child once so that DOES qualify me to talk about children."

Bullshit.

-- LL is a typical know-it-all (grow@up.already), May 22, 2000.

I guess we'll never see peace in the Middle East, huh?

Gosh, I just want to log on now and then to see if you're all ok...

-- helen (r@cing.away), May 22, 2000.

Exercise In Futility, Part Deux

Wherein I actually try to reason with Laura

So now I'm a "rock", is that it? Well, shucks (blush); where I come from that is one of the highest compliments to be paid a person. It means you are solid and dependable; a no-nonsense kind of person who's always there when you need them. So, thanks.

(Yes, I realize that's not how you meant it. Just having a little fun is all; sorry.)

After our last exchange, when I told you straight up what the deal was (and I was even NICE about it), you came back with (oh how I wish I had the inclination to look up your exact words, but.....) "I know you're right, Patricia. You've been right about a lot of things." You then went on to warn me about the dangers of the desert heat, which I really appreciated. For a minute there I thought, not that we would be "friends", but at least that the hostility might finally have been laid to rest.

Ever The Optimist, am I.

Funny thing about all of this; I actually agreed with Helen (the first answer to this ridiculous "troll" thread) and was going to post as such (because oddly enough, I think unwarranted personal attacks are reprehensible). But I got here too late and you had already started the "bad mother" nonsense all over again (i.e., "unwarranted personal attacks"). Yes, I probably should have posted my agreement with Helen regardless, and I apologize for that.

I don't know what happened between my original post on this thread, wherein all I did (sans personal attack) was point out what I felt was the "obvious" in the hope that perhaps you'd see where you went slightly wrong, and correct it. (There's The Optimist" in me again.) I said in my original post here that you were entitled to your opinion, but I hinted that perhaps you wanted to tone it down a bit as you really DON'T know the people you are bashing here. So what do you do? You take my words and twist them so that you appear to be The Victim. When the rest of us voiced our opinions regarding what you originally wrote, you returned with "Fuck you, Patricia", calling me (and others) "idiots" and "dipshits". You then told me to "fuck off" when I questioned why it was OK for you to be entitled to your opinion, but I didn't seem to have that same right.

Then when I laugh about "inane comments", you tell me I'm a "rock". (And just so we're clear here: It was *you* who told me and others to "fuck off", calling us "idiots" and "dipshits", was it not? And it is *you* who has told numerous people on this and other fora to "kiss [your] pretty, white, powdered butt", is it not? And you sit there and tell me that *I* make "inane comments" and call *me* a "fucking idiot"?)

You had some pretty good people defending you in the beginning. Hell, until you pulled the spamming on the original TB2K and the BS on Debunker, *I* was ready to defend you. But you managed somehow to alienate virtually all.

If you don't read this or don't answer it, well honestly I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. I just hope you maybe think about what I wrote here -- and think even more about what I DIDN'T write here. But please, if you're going to come back with something, at least lose the personal attack. It really does diminish your credibility. For something completely different, why don't you actually address the post instead of the poster? After all, that's what you've been complaining about all along, isn't it?

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), May 22, 2000.

You had decent parents?

All _three_ of them?

Why don't you tell the folks about your "unique" upbringing, bitch?

Or do _you_ claim a right to privacy?

You say you're going to post your photos? I hope you've got a legal model release form signed by the _real_ subject.

Maybe when you're done playing your game, someone will post your _real_ photos. No, not the ones you're thinking about. The ones the _licensed_ investigator took back in March.

Go ahead, keep fucking with people.

-- No one (wants@the.old.nag), May 22, 2000.

Maybe it reflects my own biases, and my OWN needs that I had as a child, but from what you present, Anita, you sound like a good mom to me. I think you have MUCH good sense, and reason to feel good about it. You seem to have respect, both for yourself, and your children.

There are times when I think that respect is MORE important than love - if indeed they can be separated. Much vanity and self-congratulation passes for "love." Respect is impossible to fake. It's something that children soak up, and give it back in spades throughout life.

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), May 22, 2000.

LL, I should have said, If LL is acting irrational, she isn't the only one acting irrational on here. The way supposedly rational people on this thread talk to you, would make anyone act irrational.

And BTW folks, I've emailed LL before and she has always been very pleasant and treated me fine.

Anita, I disagree about the kid thing. I had a friend that had twins two years before I had my child, and although I didn't have any children, I knew damn well that if my future kids acted like her little brats, that I'd wear their butts out. When I would say, this everyone would just smirk and say, "Wait 'til you have kids." Well I had one, and I did not put up with the shit that I've seen other parent put up with.

And yes he got spanked occasionally and as far as I can tell he is happy, well adjusted and not scarred for life. And no I didn't feel guilty about it either. He knew the limits and he tested them. Why should I feel badly because he misbehaved. And a spanking certainly doesn't mean child abuse. As my father-iin=law used to say, "Sometimes it takes a little hand-psychology to make a point."

Just because I didn't have kids, didn't mean that I didn't recognize kids acting like heathens because of foolish, indulgent parents. In fact, I gave one of my friends a copy of Permissive Parents--Violent Children. I slapped the hands of a spoiled child of another friend, who just sat and smiled while her brat pulled the leave off my plants. That was over 30 years ago and she hasn't been in my house since and that suits me fine. I also know parents who know nothing about raising children even though they have kids. I still say you do not have to be a parent to understand kids.

When I had my store, I cringed when parents brought in their kids. Most were OK, but a few were horrible and believe me, their parents didn't have a clue; they even thought they were cute!

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), May 22, 2000.

Anita: I said the telephone thing tongue in cheek.. :-} It is great to glean new information re: mom's from others who have been there done that. (G).

Re: your comments on either them being on phone or friends at house, well, right on... My son brings friend in here alot. I meet them, take them places (of course this helps w/the mom i wanna drive issue LOL) and I am reflecting on your comment about your daughters bringing home dysfunctional children.

My son once brought home a child who was very nice, it was around Christmas time, and I went to Pat Catans and decided we would paint/make ornaments. What a FUN time. His friend really enjoyed it, eyes all lit up, kept wanting to make more and more, so we did. I found out thru this as we talked he was 11, his mom had died when he was only 9.

Later on I found out he was in a gang, was on the most wanted list at community meetings in our area. It was amazing to see what a lil bit of time and love did for this young child. I let him spend the nites here and my ex had a fit. "dont you know who HE is?" I replied, "So, until he shows me otherwise, he is welcome here all he needs is a lil time and love". OTOH, when he spent one nite here, his dad called all drunk, the SO which lived w/him got on extension, going off as well because the child in their opinion was a pain in the @$$!

This went on almost all nite long as they were to high to decide IF he could/couldnt stay the nite. So it goes. Child quit coming around and last time I saw him he was being held by police in parking lot of skating rink. Sad.

BTW, keep the stories coming, yours seem to be good and I gleen alot from them.

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), May 22, 2000.

Gilda:

My experiences with other people's children was much like your own. I had friends that I never invited back because their kids would drop potato chips on my couch and then jump on them. This isn't about how one disciplines their children. It's about glaring generalizations about how mothers are automagically dysfunctional because they choose to spent time as THEY choose to spend time. You had one child, Gilda. I had three. When Laura found out I had three kids she labeled my family dysfunctional because I was posting on Debunkers. She never asked their age. She never inquired as to whether they still lived at home. She never asked whether they were at home at the time of my posting, or even what they were doing WHILE I was posting. She ASSUMED that they were sitting by my side, noses needing a wipe, whining for attention from their inattentive mother. THAT'S what this is all about.

Consumer:

EVERYONE gravitated to our home. We saw ALL kinds. The teen I mentioned who called the police to tell them she wasn't a runaway ended up in an institution. My daughter pled for me to adopt her so she wouldn't have to stay there until she was 18. I didn't adopt her. Three kids of my own was enough. She was an only child and her father referred to her as "IT." I think her mom was in an asylum for the insane. We moved to Texas not long afterward, so I don't know what happened to her. She'd already grown tough and manipulating.

We accepted everyone [much like you] UNTIL they broke the rules. One boy came after school with others for tutoring in reading. I served fruit, etc. as after-school snacks for the kids who came, but he decided to come late one day and missed snack-time. He came in all cocky, demanding that he have a snack. I told him snack-time was over and he basically threw a fit until I asked him to leave. I later told his mother that I didn't have time to provide free tutoring to him after school, but that my daughter was willing for $3.00/hr. We never saw him again.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 22, 2000.

Why don't you tell the folks about your "unique" upbringing

Mark Troth, you know damn well MY upbringing was normal. Of course YOU are probably going to substitute your dysfunctional life and family for mine. Go ahead, this should be quite entertaining.

You say you're going to post your photos? I hope you've got a legal model release form signed by the _real_ subject.

They will be me alright. There is a poster who knows me in real life on this forum, and he'd be welcome to say if it wasn't. (Be my guest, neighbor!)

Maybe when you're done playing your game, someone will post your _real_ photos. No, not the ones you're thinking about. The ones the _licensed_ investigator took back in March.

I'm calling your bluff asshole. If somebody was taking photos of me ANYTIME I'd be happy to see them. I told you last year I go out in baggy clothes and my hair in a pony tail because I don't like attracting attention, but so what? I do that for my own safety. Go ahead, prick -- bring 'em on.

Go ahead, keep fucking with people.

Go ahead, keep fucking with me. You don't scare me in the least, you pathetic excuse for a man.

-- (Ladylogic@....), May 22, 2000.

Oops! Someone touched a nerve! LOL

-- LL is nutz! nutz! nutz! (nutz@nutz.nutz.nutz), May 22, 2000.

fuck off, Peg.

-- (Ladylogic@.....), May 22, 2000.

Peg? Where is her post? Who are you talking to, idiot?

-- LL is nutz! nutz! nutz! (nutz@nutz.nutz.nutz), May 22, 2000.

Hey Nutz. Since you're such a fan of Diane's, have you checked out her new password protected forum?

Ha, hahahahahahahah hahahahahahahahhahahaha hahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahha hahahahahahahahah hahahahahahhahaha hahahahahhahaha hahahhahahah hahahahahhahaha hahahahahahahhahaha, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah, hahahahahahahahahahah, hahahahahahahahahahahah,hahahahahahahahha!

-- (Ladylogic@...), May 22, 2000.

No. do you have the url?

-- LL is nutz! nutz! nutz! nutz! (nutz@nutz.nutz.nutz), May 22, 2000.

You are proud of that, aren't you Laura.

You really are a shithead.

And I don't think I've ever said that to a "lady" before.

Oh, and FUCK-OFF Laura.

<:(=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), May 22, 2000.

Sysman, you drug-induced, pot-smoking, hippy, doomer idiot. There were several of us who lightly reminded her what a bitch she is. I know that two of my cohorts are a couple of the smartest men from here and DeBunker's. Of course, idiots like you and Nutz don't have an appreciation for the more highly intelligent posters from these fora, and that's no big surprise.

By the way, I told you to FUCK OFF first.... at DeBunker's, remember? In case I didn't say it strongly enough then, or earlier in this thread:

Fuck off, Sissyman!

-- (Ladylogic@...), May 22, 2000.

Of course, idiots like you and Nutz don't have an appreciation for the more highly intelligent posters from these fora, and that's no big surprise.

Well exxxxxxxccccccuuuuuuUUUUUuuuuuuusssssssssse ME! I never counted you in the group of highly intelligent anything. I was right, too.

I put you in the conceited group. You outdid yourself!

I put you in the liars group. You took it to new heights!

I put you in the crude group. Amazingly, you took them to new lows!

But then again, so did a pile of dogshit in my backyard. It was crude looking, and all it did was lie there. You conceit, outback.

-- LL is nutz! nutz! nutz! (nutz@nutz.nutz.nutz), May 22, 2000.

I upset you a little bit there, didn't I, Nutz??

WOW! That big, blue, and purple vein on the side of your neck is sticking out again. You're going to have a heart attack if you don't settle down.

(Actually, you'll probably croak from brain disease. All that shit you have in there for brains is s-l-o-w-l-y suffocating you as we speak. lol!)

-- (Ladylogic@...), May 22, 2000.

Yes, it appears that I did touch a nerve.

Not only that, but the bitch seems to think she knows who I am.

This would be funny, if she could even guess my _gender_ correctly.

Yes, you bitch, you don't _only_ piss _men_ off.

As to calling a bluff, I was always of the belief that one could only call a bluff if it was a bluff.

I never said that _I_ was going to post any photos that the investigator took. I only said that perhaps _someone_ would.

Who knows? Perhaps someone will post them. As to where you were and what you were doing, I don't think that your clothing or hair style had much to do with it. I'd better stop now before I say too much.

One last suggestion: ever hear that business about people who live in glass houses?

No one is fucking with you.

Plenty of us are tired of _you_ fucking with _us_.

How nice of the _real_ private investigators (you know, the ones with _licenses_) to be available for hire in this great country of ours.

Perhaps your time would be better spent examining past successful cyber-stalking defenses (if there _are_ any), rather than continuing to harass, threaten, attack, and abuse your victims.

Then again, I hear prison stripes can make you look _so_ much _thinner_, dear.

Unless they're the _horizontal_ variety.

-- No one (wants@the.old.nag), May 22, 2000.

Laura,

This is very entertaining.

a few points:

1) I'm not "-- No one (wants@the.old.nag)". 2) I don't know anything about your upbringing. 3) You don't know anything about my upbringing. 4) We really don't know anything at all about each others real lives.

That's all. You can tell me to fuck off now.

-- Mark (cavscout@fix.net), May 22, 2000.

Mark in case you missed it dear, you got screwed a little higher in this thread, we all did. And um to the one who is saying too much, yes dear, silence is golden, remember that. Dont talk to much she/he/it will catch on. You really dont want that. Time is on your side. So am I.

-- silence (silence@isgolden.no?), May 22, 2000.

Ok, I'm sorry Mark. I thought he sounded like you but I might be wrong. You can go fuck off now ;o)

-- (Ladylogic@...), May 23, 2000.

wants@the.old.nag

You're nothing but hot fuckin' air. I have NEVER been in a compromising position because I live my life with integrity. LOL! I haven't done anything even remotely sexual since I was married!

Like I said, you or anyone else can bring on any trash you've fabricated. But, if you do anything illegal, I warn you, there will be ramifications.

Double LOL! You must really be fucking up a child to be so pissed off at me! The truth hurts, doesn't it? (Either that or you're Diane or old Shit. In which case; ha ha, ha ha, ha)

Tres LOL! I hope I'm pissing you off enough that you do try something stupid! Come on, do it! I'll be looking forward to this!

-- (Ladylogic@...), May 23, 2000.

You're right.

This is my final post here. Loose lips sink ships, and I never was very good at keeping secrets.

I'll look in from time to time, but no more posts.

-- No one (wants@the.old.nag), May 23, 2000.

Clarification to my last post (and _this_ one is _really_ my _last_ and final post!)

I was replying to "Silence", not to the bitch.

I am _so_ tempted to say more, but I'm biting my lip as I shut up and leave!

-- No one (wants@the.old.nag), May 23, 2000.

No,

Now you are catching on. You taught me well. keep lurking,it will get better i promise you that.

-- silence (Silence@isgolden.no?), May 23, 2000.

yawn

-- (Ladylogic@...), May 23, 2000.

Point taken Anita. I did know what LL was talking about, and it was a generalization, but it seems that all the mothers on here got just a little too defensive about their motherhood qualities.

What always bothered me, is that I was the crankiest mother in the neighborhood and yet all the kids wanted to play at our house. Never could understand that.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), May 23, 2000.

I was the crankiest mother in the neighborhood and yet all the kids wanted to play at our house. Never could understand that.

Gilda, I 'spect it has something to do with this.... you've got something in common, kids are natural b.s. detectors (until it's beaten out of them!)

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), May 23, 2000.

only bad mothers get defensive about their mothering abilities

-- (Mr Giggles W@tching the .show), May 23, 2000.

R-E-S-P-E-C-T

Sockittome, sockittome, sockittome

-- (nemesis@awol.com), May 23, 2000.