"Is it fear that you need in order to be, do, and have what is intrinsically right. Must you be threatened in order to 'be good'? And what is 'being good'? Who gets to have the final say about that? Who sets the guidelines? Who makes the rules?

I tell you this: You are your own rule-maker. You set the guidelines. And you decide how well you have done; how well you are doing. For you are the one who has decided Who an What you really are-and Who You Want to Be. And you are the only one who can assess how you are doing.

No on else will judge you ever, for why, and how, could God judge God's own creation and call it bad? If I wanted you to be and do everything perfectly, I would have left you in the state of total perfection whence you came. The whole point of the process was for you to discover yourself, create your Self as you truly are-and as you truly wish to be. Yet you could not be that unless you had a choice to be something else.

Should I therefore punish you for making a choice that I Myself have laid before you? If I did not want you to make the second choice, why would I create other than the first?

This is a question you must ask yourself before you would asign me the role of a condemning God.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 20, 2000

Answers

I have chimed in before about how I feel in the area of ethics and moral philosopy. Deterrance is ingrained in the human experience as the "best" way to insure that the most people will behave. Our human law and the "laws" of various religions are an attempt to elicit proper behavior-It addresses the lowest common denomiator of spiritual evolution. An evolved soul would not need the threat of incarceration on this plane and eternal damnation on the next, in order to treat others with respect and love.

While I would not argue to ban all laws and religion as of today, I would state that the point of our corporeal existence is to evolve to the point where EVERY choice we make is based in love-this is what Jesus, The Buddha, and all other spiritual masters did. And every one of them pointed the way to an experience of the self as God-as we truly are. The kingdom IS within, and until we realize this and act from there, I guess we will have to have all these punishments. Frankly, it sure does seem that we are not too evolved from the beasts if deterrance is our best way to get the most people to behave.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 20, 2000.

Dannion Brinkley has written about his near-death experiences, NDEs (yes plural) in a few easy to read books. Saved By The Light is his most popular to date. In it he speaks of experiencing a whole life review in which he feels the emotions of those he has come in contact with over his most recent lifetime. He re-lived the events of his past life from the perspective of others. How scary is that!

He judged himself during this event. He says we all judge ourselves at the time of our whole life review. Theres nobody sitting on a throne pointing  you up there, you down there. We judge ourselves through total empathy with those weve wronged & those weve helped.

I see that the second paragraph of the selected quotation can easily be misinterpreted. I believe Walsch refers not to this physical world & the rules therein, but the soul & its relationship to God.

For those interested in NDEs see also Dr. Raymond Moodys studies published in his books such as Life After Life.

Best,

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 20, 2000.

Bingo:

I am not sure of the origin of the "life review" theory/experience. I have seen it in several books, including the third book in this series, and in the Tenth Insight by James Redfield(Part of the Celstine series).

It has been around for some time-it may go back to the ancients, for all I know. I guess one dau we will know if it is true, eh?

-- Futureshock (gray@matter.think), May 20, 2000.

1 difference,between all the great?masters & the CHRIST. THEY,RE STILL IN THERE GRAVES--HE IS RISEN. at the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDMENT-NO ONE WILL BE BOWING>to bhudda'confusious,mohammed,lang wang or any other. what a shocker for all,who rejected>the KING OF KINGS & LORD [OF] LORDS.

-- al-d (dogs@zianet.com), May 20, 2000.

al-d, put your tongue back in your mouth, man. This isn't about supposed bragging rights.

If you believe JC is the only one to have resurrection stories written about him you're mistaken. That you chose to latch on to the first resurrected being you heard about without investigating further (my assumption) is interesting. Perhaps JC is your true Guru. Perhaps you weren't interested in researching further. Your call.

As to the whole life review theory, it makes great sense to me. It feels right.

I wish I had al-d's depth of faith. Ooh look, I'm turning green. Puff out that chest my friend. :^)

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 20, 2000.

Bingo is right. This is not about bragging rights. In fact, this is not about me or anyone else converting ANYBODY to the author's views. There are many gems of wisdom in his book-but I follow no one doctrine-yet I follow the only one doctrine-That there are an infinite amount od doctrines.

No one human will ever understand completely another human-each soul has its own version of the truth-and each one of those versions IS the truth. It does not make sense that one size would fit all in the spiritual realm, as we could never completely agree on anything. It is just the nature of things.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 20, 2000.

All choices appear to be "ok" here. Kill, rape, maim. No problem, no fault, the choice was given to us and only we can judge our actions. No one will ever judge us. Not our peers, not God, no one but us. Hitler - God. Columbine - a choice that cannot be judged, by God or man.

Uh, I don't think so. Beam me up Scotty, lol, and I thought the Y2K Hype was silly!

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), May 20, 2000.

but folks.JESUS [said] .''i am the way,the truth,the life. not 1 of the WAY,S. not a piece of the TRUTH. NICE SAYINGS ARE NICE--BUT WON,T SAVE YOUR SOUL.

-- al-d (dogs@zianet.com), May 20, 2000.

Factfinder:

I know how difficult this material can be. The question you must ask yourself is can you know beyond a shadow of a doubt what a particular soul is up to? Why a particular soul might choose a violent death? Can you know for sure that there is an ABSOLUTE system of morality, wherein all the right choices for EVERY culture of the world are hidden?

More will become clear as I go through this series. Your question will be answered in time, Factfinder. THe books themselves are a dialouge, and Walsch as the author asks of God many of the questions you may have about this seemingly bizarre relativism.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 20, 2000.

Factfinder,

If you have read the three threads started by FS & the one by The Dog & come to the conclusion that it is OK by me to maim & kill, well, I can't help you with your reading comprehension. Are you a product of the public school system? :^)

Seriously, how can I further clarify my position for you? Perhaps some of the terminology is unclear?

al-d, God Bless.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 20, 2000.

"There are people who depict their Creator as one who imperiously tests man with the smoke of ignorance and the fire of punishment, and who judges mans actions with heartless scrutiny. They thus distort the true concept of God as a loving, compassionate Heavenly Father into a false image of one who is a strict, unsparing, and vengeful tyrant. But devotees who commune with God know it is foolish to think Him otherwise than as the Compassionate Being who is the infinite receptacle of all love and goodness."  Where There Is Light by Paramahansa Yogananda

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 20, 2000.

FF,

We are our own judges. When you choose to act on your highest thoughts, you will experience love and joy. When you choose to act in a way which contradicts the guidance of your soul... the pathway toward God, you will experience guilt, fear, and shame. This is what as known as "Hell," and it is totally your choice whether you want to live in Heaven or Hell.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), May 20, 2000.

I like the new sanitized spirituality; I don't have to judge right from wrong, Real life issues can be avoided because my truth isn't the only truth and your truth might be the real truth, at least for the moment, and maybe my truth will be more truthful later on. Don't Bogart that joint, my friend. Pass it over to me........ Rollllllll another one....., Jes lack the another one..... You've been hanging own tuit, An ah shur would lack a hit.....

-- KoFE (your@town.USA), May 20, 2000.

Thanks anyway, don't smoke the stuff.

"Real life issues can be avoided because my truth isn't the only truth and your truth might be the real truth, at least for the moment, and maybe my truth will be more truthful later on."

There is only One Truth. Each of us creates our own reality, but you can't change the Truth. No need to avoid real-life issues either, they always come down to a choice. (Hint: always pick the Highest one :-)

-- Hawk (flyin@hi.again), May 20, 2000.

I just returned from seeing a thought-provoking movie. The screenplay for "The Big Kahuna" belongs in this thread (or any of the similiar threads that are often seen here). I'll spare you an amateur review except to briefly describe the movie.

The story covers a one-day sales meeting at a boring motel in Wichita. The three main characters are industrial lubricant salesmen. There are no action scenes, no digital dash. But the dialog is witty and moving. Spacey fans will not be disappointed. Issues covered are friendship, love, Jesus, God, relationships and character. Spacey is a middle-aged cynic and DeVito is a middle-aged crisis. The third salesman is an idealistic young Jesus person.

Highly recommended.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), May 20, 2000.

Did anyone catch the interview with the East Coast T.V. interview of a mass murderer of prostitutes, back in the 90's? This man claimed to have no idea as to why he did those horrid acts. He allowed for his brain to be tested. I personally do not know of anyone being killed in such a way, (maybe I am blessed). I also do not know of anyone personally with ecoli(sp?) Nor death from food Botulism a a local fast food. I only heard of it via the "news". That scared the pants off me (ugly sight). To get to the point, The Ugly News comes from the television, When you get on the Internet, you meet a whole group of different humans. People from Russia, Germany, England. etc, who post kind responses. People trying to help one another with information. I think when truth begins to spread, be it about inexpensive health remedies, politicians, government, the trolls start to hack. To discredit an original posters experience. By the way, have you checked into Oxygen Therapy for what ails you? I would try anything before Chemo. I must visit the Family Graveyard soon, to once again visit my relatives, who were told their only only alternative, was Chemo., there they lie.....

-- Pondering (Perception@facts.com), May 20, 2000.

Pondering, I get the sense that you think I was trying to discredit the original post.

On a recent thread, I stated how disgusting abortions are. FS gave a fairly thoughtless response to that post, which leads me to believe that he/she is OK with abortions.

So on another Con./w God post, I asked a question to the effect :"how does a person reconcile such a "fearful" act, and who is the original author of that fear based act?

Since there was no answer to the question, I guess the issue was to messy to deal with.

A better description would be selective sanitized spirituality.

-- KoFE (your@town.USA), May 21, 2000.

Kofe: "A better description would be selective sanitized spirituality"

That's an excellent description of all religious/spiritual texts with which I've ever come in contact.

Selective in that the given text was authored, not materialized out of the ether. Sanitized in that editor(s) applied themselves to said text prior to publication.

That's good, solid logic, Kofe.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 21, 2000.

Were y'all aware that this author has an official website?

Conversations With God Official Website

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 21, 2000.

And you would rather insinuate that what I said was illogical than address the issue. That's your selection.

-- KoFE (your@town.USA), May 21, 2000.

Directed to KoFE: Huh? Either I'm not writing clearly or you're reading something I'm not writing.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 21, 2000.

when the rich young ruler,said unto JESUS.good master. JESUS replied-only GOD is good.[at all times] if only that young man had realized to WHOM he was speaking. JESUS never sinned,never. do you know of ANY human who can tout that?? JESUS came to seek & save. modern man ,try,s to avoid the SIN ISSUE,BLINDED BY CHOICE.

-- al-d.when (dogs@zianet.com), May 21, 2000.

I tell you this: You are your own rule-maker. You set the guidelines.

No on else will judge you ever, for why, and how, could God judge God's own creation and call it bad?

Sorry Bingo, doesn't fly - you are simply not allowed to judge ME "according to Walsch". In the "World of Walsch", I am allowed to maim and pilfer as I choose, and only I am qualfied to judge my actions. Be gone, mortal, for I am OZ... ;)

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), May 21, 2000.

Sorry FactFinder, those are not my words. I ask that you not attribute another's statements to me. This is the second time you've made this mistake.

I realize you wish to disagree with me, that's fine. Just nail me with my opinions, not someone else's.

Your handle seems more & more ironic the more I read your posts.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 21, 2000.

Bingo, I couldn't tell if you agreed with that opinion or were being sarcastic, (maybe because of the format?), but either way, no offense taken.

-- KoFE (your@town.USA), May 21, 2000.

how come al-d name never show up on stat page?

-- not needed (question@here.cs), May 22, 2000.

No problem KoFE. I wasn't trying to be sarcastic. You made an excellent point.

Best,

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 22, 2000.

You are your own rule-maker. You set the guidelines. And you decide how well you have done; how well you are doing. For you are the one who has decided Who an What you really are-and Who You Want to Be. And you are the only one who can assess how you are doing.

No on else will judge you ever, for why, and how, could God judge God's own creation and call it bad? If I wanted you to be and do everything perfectly, I would have left you in the state of total perfection whence you came. The whole point of the process was for you to discover yourself, create your Self as you truly are-and as you truly wish to be.

Hmm, where have we heard this before? Try Genesis 3:5 "God knows well that the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods who know what is good and what is bad." The serpent is repeating his old lines. To determine what is good and evil is the same as determining what is the truth. That prerogative belongs to God alone who created reality. Our role is to discover the truth not invent it. To try to take upon ourselves the ability to determine truth is to attempt to become God ourselves, an act of pride because we are not God.

-- Beerman (frbeerman@juno.org), May 23, 2000.

Beerman:

You do not get it. EVERYTHING is the truth. All that is IS. How you define "truth" is the real question. Not a one of us can "make anything up". The act of creation is bringing into form that which already is. THis is what Michelangelo said about sculpture-the finished product was already there-he just had to uncover it-God has no reason to hide from us-why would she not want us to experience heaven on earth. How do you explain "The kingdom of God is within". How come you bible thumpers conveniently skip this scripture. What do YOU think it means?

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 23, 2000.

"The kingdom of God is within" as opposed to the kingdom of God is outside of yourselves. The Jews of Jesus' time were expecting a return of a king in the line of David who would throw off the oppression of the Romans and bring political peace to Israel. Jesus is not that kind of king. The kingdom is within means that we submit to Jesus in our hearts as our king. No matter what country we are living in or what political system, we can still belong to the kingdom of God. Please don't call me a "bible-thumper" I was only drawing a connection between Walsh's writings and a similar source in Scripture.

-- Beerman (frbeerman@juno.org), May 23, 2000.

Beerman:

My apologies for the name-calling. I need to go to bed. I get a bit ornery at this hour. I get especially ornery when ANYONE tells me their way is the only way-If you are not a christian and are theorizing about scripture, my apologies again.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 23, 2000.

FS, you said,

THis is what Michelangelo said about sculpture-the finished product was already there-he just had to uncover it-God has no reason to hide from us-why would she not want us to experience heaven on earth.

If I gave you a big rock could you sculpt out a David or a La Pieta? I couldn't. Maybe God didn't "hide" anything from us, we just don't want to/ can't see it in front of our noses. Faith of a mustard seed and all that. As for God's motives, who knows? For someone who believes in the Judeo-Christian kind of God, that would be like asking a baby to explain their parents' motives. We just aren't able to yet.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 23, 2000.