To the Forum,

In the last 10 years or so, I have heard various definitions given to the word FEAR as it pertains to God. More often than not, I have been told that to fear God, is to have a reverential awe for Him. I do not have any idea what this means. I do know that it is held by those who believe that once a person becomes a Christian then all they need do is look at God as a kind benefactor. I, personally, do not hold such a limited view of the word FEAR. When you discuss passages like Ecclesiastes 12: 13, how do you relate this term to your hearers?

-- Anonymous, May 20, 2000

Answers

Dave,

Actually "reverent awe" is a pretty good definition of the word for "Fearing" the Lord. You might call such fear a result of believing in God, desiring His help, seeking His lovingkindness, and not desiring to take His name in vain or belittle Him in any word or deed.

However, I also feel that a good dose of "actual fear" (distress, forboding, anxiety) is part of the equation as well. A loving father disciplines his child in order to produce in him the proper attitudes and behaviors required for life. Personally, I love my father & mother, but I had a healthy respect & fear of the paddle they wielded were I deserving of it. Likewise, we know that our heavenly Father also disciplines us for our own benefit - this is not something to be taken lightly.

Notice that when God gave the Law to Moses on Sinai, that the people were afraid to even touch the Mountain of God, for the sky was darkened, lightning flashed, the ground quaked, and the voice of the Lord Thundered throughout the land. If you ain't in awe of that and afraid of that - then there is something seriously wrong with you.

Also notice that in each historic Dispensation (Patriarchial, Mosaic, & Christian) that God started things out with a death of those in opposition to His will & ways. God destroyed all but 8 people in Noah's day (Patriarchial) when they had corrupted themselves and abandoned their "fear" of God. God struck many Israelites dead for their idolatry, disobedience, and rebelliousness (lack of "fear") after Moses was given the Law. And Ananias & Sapphira were struck dead on the spot when they showed their lack of "fear" by trying to "pull the wool" over the eyes of God and the Church in Acts 5.

You right in the fact that many churches now only stress the Love of God to the exclusion of all of His other Aspects - and do the people a dis-service by doing so. Yes, God is love; but He is also Just, Righteous, Holy, Jealous, and a Consuming Fire (Heb 12:29)!!!

Personally, I have never known a person who came forward to accept Christ as Savior and to be Baptized into Him just because "they loved Jesus". Mostly, they came forward because they "didn't want to go to Hell"! The larger aspects of Love for Christ usually come with maturity in the faith.

No matter what anyone wants to think, God does stand as the Righteous judge and that one day EVERYONE will have to appear before the Judgment Seat. That thought should provoke in us a little "fear" as we strive to "Fear the Lord".

Hope that helps,

-- Anonymous, May 22, 2000

I am not a Hebrew scholar by any stretch of the imagination. (I took 3 years -- 6 semesters -- of Greek in Bible college, but no Hebrew.) However, I looked in my Young's concordance (I'm sure Strong's would be similar). It lists SEVERAL Hebrew and Greek words which have been translated as "fear" in the English Bible. The word used in Eccles. 12:13 is given as "yare", with the brief definition, "to fear, reverence." Some OTHER words are defined as "to fear, be afraid", and one is defined as "to fear, be afraid, terrified." I'd suggest that anyone interested in a fuller understanding of what the Bible means when it talks about "fear" of God should get hold of a copy of Young's or Strong's concordance and look up all the references that use "yare" and compare them with all the references that use the other words, and see what differences there are in the contexts and the ways the words are used. Also look at what else each passage about fearing God has to say about our relationship with God. I just looked at a few verses at random. II Kings 17:39 is particularly interesting -- Fear God and he will deliver you from your enemies!

-- Anonymous, May 22, 2000

'Perfect Love casts out fear' would have the connotation of cringing fear, would it not? But the Ecclesiastes reference has the 'reverential' aspect, to me.

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2000

Hate to say it Connie........

But do you reckon that a lack of a healthy respect and literal "fear" of God may be a reason why some don't feel that Baptism is necessary? "If I'm not in the least afraid of God's awesome power & might - why should I worry about His Judgment?"

I can "Love" the judge all I want to, but in a court of True Law - I'm "going DOWN" if I am guilty of not following all of the dictates of the Court!!!

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2000

Mark:

I HAVE reverential awe for God. I think it is somewhat lessened in the person who thinks that something he/she can do will accomplish something which God alone can do without human help ~ which is to obtain salvation for His chosen ones.

Respectfully and Prayerfully submitted,

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2000

Oh, I "fear" God alright.

I fear him enough to know that if I make a habit of breaking His commands and teaching others to break His commands - that I'll go straight to Hell for it.

The great thing about the Bible is that its only "gray" area is the glue that holds the bindings together! One is either "for God or against God".

And Connie, your irrefutable evidence is yourself. You submitted to baptism. One either does what God says or they do not. Do you observe the Passover meal...No, because it is not required for salvation. Were the male members of your family circumcized for the religious purposes of salvation.....no, because it is not required for salvation. Do you have an Agape Feast every 1st day of the week......no, because it is not required for salvation.

THEN WHY WERE YOU BAPTIZED? Either it was for salvation or it was just to get wet. It either cleansed your sin and your conscience or it didn't (meaning you're still unclean).

This is not a gray area, so make up you mind - then live in "fear" of God: "awe" if right, "terrified" if wrong. "for it is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Heb 10:31)!!!

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2000

Like was mentioned above, I never did a word study on this, but I think "healthy respect" is more in line with what is meant. You actually "fear" those in authority, with good reason: the power to punish, and actual positional power. But it is not unreasonable, like a terror, but healthy respect for that authority. Again, like most concepts in the Bible, this is not one-dimensional. This fear is a two way street. Healthy respect for the authority, but at the same time understanding that the individual who holds it will not abuse that authority despotically. God will not overemphasize one aspect of His nature at the expense of another. He loves us unconditionally, but at the same time, it is a terrible thing to fall into the hand of the living God. Both are part of His nature and personality.

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2000

Hi, Dr. Jon,

Is it not true that some passages definitely mean 'reverential awe' or 'healthy respect', and others DO mean 'being terrified of'?

For example, in the passage about 'perfect love casts out fear', I would interpret that to be what we consider fear. Also, in 'God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of love, and of power, and of a sound mind', I consider that to be what we think of as fear.

But in the verse translated: 'The first duty of man is to fear God', I think of that as reverential awe. This is where English is a limited language, ~ wordier, to get the complete meaning across ~ and Greek is almost ideal.

Just wondering ~

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2000

I loved my dad, and I respected him. I also knew that he was very powerful, and that if I ever got out of line, he could easily put me through a wall.

<In Loving Memory of James "Big Jim" Wilson, Pearl Harbor Survivor, USS Pennsylvania>

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2000

Mark,

I was baptized to obey God. And that is why my children were baptized.

Since baptism happened at such varied times in the New Testament, and different ones emphasized it, while others didn't, and the majority of Scriptures tell us how to become children of God without mentioning baptism, and the few verses which seem to say it is a requirement to ba saved are debatable as to meaning, I can't believe it is part of the salvation process, other than in the 'working out' which covers ALL growth God requires.

I would definitely instruct anyone I tell the Gospel to, that baptism is very important. But if they don't understand that it is the blood of Christ and His conquering death by rising again, it is pointless to be immersed, as was evidenced to me by my first baptism. I treat it as a 'figure', or 'picture' of what has actually happened ~ the death, burial, and resurrection of my Lord and Savior, which is what it says of itself.

The Holy Spirit instructs and teaches us, and has written God's commandments in our hearts, so that we don't have to memorize and carry out the Law. We need to become ingrafted into the Vine and alive because of Him, and responsive to His urgings. All of the ten commandments ARE repeated in the New Testament, except the one on the Sabbath, so they are very important to observe but we will fail, in which case we have an Advocate with the Father, even Jesus Christ ~ if we quickly run to Him and confess our falling short of His glory.

Then He cleanses us from all sin.

Praise God He has done that for me!

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2000

Connie -

You have the right concept there. There is "fear" (as in terrified, frightened) then there is "fear" (reverential awe, respect). The English language is pretty limited in some aspects, and this is another example of it. I was referring to that one verse, not to all examples of the word useage.

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2000

Connie, at what point, according to the scripture is the Blood of Christ applied to a person, thus washing away the sin of that person?

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2000

Hello, Robert,

In my case, it was when I believed in Christ's substitutionary death for me and my sins, (repented) which is substantiated in Scripture.

Now, the term 'believe' means 'to rely on', 'to depend on', 'to trust in'; it doesn't mean just to believe that Christ existed ~ that is an historical fact, one which to not believe requires denial.

I had not had presented to me any 'plan of salvation' or 'four spiritual laws', although if those bring people to Christ, I am not against them. I heard the simple Gospel on the radio from Moody Bible Institute, was given a couple of Bibles, one by a neighbor, and one by a friend (the first was a KJV and the second was an Amplified).

Eventually, AFTER I had accepted that Christ died for me, I started studying those. The changes were all begun when I believed. I had been immersed in my mother's Baptist Church. I didn't know until several months after my conversion that baptism was to be part of my public commitment.

I want to point out here, as well, that the coming forward in a Billy Graham crusade is to make a public statement of the inner change. The turning in a new direction has already occurred, as with Saul/Paul, on the road to Damascus.

Prayerfully and Respectfully submitted,

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2000

Oh, Robert ~

I forgot to include a verse:

Titus 3:5:

'He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but because of His own pity and mercy, by [the] cleansing bath of the new birth (regeneration) and renewing of the Holy Spirit'.

This is NOT water baptism. This the cleansing bath of the new birth.

In Him,

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2000

Connie

Just a couple questions.

1. What was the spiritual purpose/accomplishment of your 2nd baptism ?

2. Since you consider baptism a "picture", what did you die to at that time?

3. What is the newness of life if this does not refer to being a new creature in Christ?

Faris

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2000

Hello, Faris,

The following says it better than I can:

I Peter 3:21: [Amplified]

And baptism, which is a figure [of their deliverance], does now also save you [from inward questionings and fears], not by the removing of outward body filth (bathing), but by [providing you with] the answer of a good and clear conscience [inward cleanness and peace] before God, [because you are DEMONSTRATING what you believe to be yours] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Figure: Figurative

Demonstrating: Showing

NIV:

And this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also -- not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand -- with angels, authorities and powers in submission to Him.

My baptism was in obedience to God's instruction and its purpose was to publicly proclaim what had occurred internally previously, my being 'born again' by faith through grace, in repentance, and in believing that Christ's substitutionary death for my sins was an all- sufficient sacrifice.

My feet were placed on a completely new path; I was turned in the opposite direction from which I had been going.

Respectfully and Prayerfully submitted,

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2000

Faris,

The ansers to your second and third questions:

I started dying to self when first I believed; (and it's a continuing struggle);

I was reborn by repenting of my sins, and trusting in the shed blood, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and that was symbolized in baptism with the comparison to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

May I ask what happened in your situation?

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2000

Connie

Through my faith in Christ, I repented of my sin, I was baptized into his death. Rm. 6:3

At this time I was able to walk as a new, (forgiven/cleansed of sin) man. Rm. 6:4

Crucified with him. Rm. 6:6

I died that I might live with him. Rm.6:8

Sealed with the Holy Spirit who is the promise of my inheritance. Acts 2:38, Eph. 1:13-14

Died to sin. Rm.6

Connie, I believe that when I stand before Christ I will be able to spend eternity with God the father because the Holy Spirit will stand with me. Much has been said about baptism being a, "work". You need to understand that we receive the Holy Spirit in the manner described in Acts 2:38. HE is the guarantee of our inheritance. To stand before Christ on ones own merit without the Holy Spirit is indeed a work and a work that is already doomed to failure. Repentance and baptism FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF MY SIN is the biblical manner through which I received the Holy Spirit and the forgiveness of my sin by the blood of Christ.

I to tried the (faith only)route. I knew something was missing. When I began to really study on my own I realized that I had taken half a step. Baptism for the forgiveness of my sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit was needed. That was 34 years ago. God has since blessed me beyond my wildest imaganation. But that would be a different thread.

Although I do not agree with you, I do admire the effort you put into this forum concerning baptism. It has caused me to reexamine scriptures not visited for some time.

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2000

Dave

Sorry for leaving the subject of the thread. I should have read the top before posting.

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2000

In respect to the passage on, "perfect love casts out fear..."

Whose love is perfect and what fear does it cast out? Does God's perfect love for us, and our's for Him (can our love be perfect - uh oh - here comes another thread) cancel out the necessity of we being in fear of The Almighty God?

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2000

Acts 10:43-44,47:

43: To Him all the prophets testify (bear witness) that every one who believes in Him -- who adheres to, trusts in and relies on Him, giving himself up to Him -- receives forgiveness of sins through His Name.

44: While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all who were listening to the message.

45: ...

46: ...

47: Can anyone forbid or refuse water for baptizing these people, seeing that they have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?

John 6:63-65:

63: It is the Spirit that gives life -- He is the Life-giver; the flesh conveys no benefit whatever - - there is no benefit in it. The words (truths) that I have been speaking to you are spirit and life.

64: But [still] some of you fail to believe and trust and have faith, and who would betray Him and be false to Him.

65: And He said, This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him - - unless he is enabled to do so - - by the Father.

(I added v.65 for dbvz).

I received the gift of the Holy Spirit at the same time I was baptized with the One Baptism ~ into the Name of Christ ~ when I repented, confessed and believed. And later, as a figure of all that, I was immersed.

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2000

Dave:

Jesus' love is the perfect love (which includes His being willing to die for my sins when He was sinless) and the fear was in me before I discovered His perfect love.

In Him,

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2000

Dave:

To answer the last part of your question: I do not live in cringing fear of God. I think of Him as a loving, protective Father. I DO have a reverential, respectful, adoring awe of Him, however.

There are different meanings in the original languages (Greek? Hebrew? Aramaic?) than are possible in English. That is why the word 'fear' is used in two different contexts.

The Ecclesiastes reference was in Hebrew and I'm not positive of the New Testament references ~ either Greek or Aramaic.

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2000

Faris,

I overlooked part of your post above, and even though this is too many posts from one person, want to respond to it:

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

Connie, I believe that when I stand before Christ I will be able to spend eternity with God the father because the Holy Spirit will stand with me.

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

I have always believed (at least for a very long time) that the Holy Spirit lives in me (as well as does Christ) and that Christ is my Advocate and Mediator (Lawyer) with the Father. And that God the Father sees me clothed in Christ, so that I have an air-tight alibi before I ever enter His Presence.

Respectfully and Prayerfully submitted.

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2000