A qoute regarding Duality:

"God knew that for love to exist-and to know itself as pure love-its exact opposite had to exist as well. So God voluntarily created the great polarity-the absolute opposite of love-everything that love is not-what is now called fear. In the moment fear existed, love could exist as a thing that could be experienced.

It is this creation of duality between love and its opposite which humans refer to in their various mythologies as the birth of evil, the fall of adam, the rebellion of satan, and so forth.

Just as you have chosen to personify pure love as the character you call God, so you have chosen to personify abject fear as the character you call the devil.

Some on earth have established rather elaborate mythologies around this event, complete with scenarios of battles and war, angelic soldiers, and devilish warriors, the forces of good and evil, of light and dark.

This mythology has been mankind's early attempt to understand, and tell others in a way they could understand, a cosmic occurence of which the human soul is deeply aware, but of which the mind can barely conceive."

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 19, 2000

Answers

My world got easier when I came to understand that all choices were a choice between fear and love. To do the next right thing, I just had to ask myself "What would love do?".

I am totally down with duality, that nothing can exist but for its opposite-that they are really one and the same-yin/yang. It was completely impossible to understand it when I started this journey, but now it is an integral part of the way I create my life-always take into account the two sides of the coin.

I look forward to your responses.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 19, 2000.

FutureShock,

My, what a breath of fresh air. I thank you very much for this post.

I do not have the first two volumes, however I am into reading the third, which in some ways has confirmed what I already suspicioned, and which has led me to believe as you do, ying/yang. While there is no love without hate, no good without evil, the choices are mine. It is up to me to choose the path of my actions. This choice belongs to no one else.

While I've not finished the book one point made that has stuck with me is: "God cannot create anything imperfect. If you think that god can create anything imperfect, then you know nothing of God."

Thank you again.

-- Richard (Astral-Acres@webtv.net), May 19, 2000.

It would seem that (for example) an act of aborting a potential human being from their mothers womb would be fear based.

With the act of allowing to live and nurturing the same person would being love.

It would seem that if the author, (creator, God,) of a persons conscience tells them that a fear based act is acceptable, then that same author is from a fear based place. I don't mean to say this to sound sanctimonious, because I know from experience what it is to ignore my own conscience. The results are always negative.

-- KoFE (your@town.USA), May 19, 2000.

I will do my best to keep my comments more on the topic of the thread this time around. Sorry if I steered off in other directions on the last, FS.

I find the concept of Maya, Cosmic Delusion, a good one. Maya=Duality. To pierce the veil of maya is to leave the illusion of duality & reunite in oneness with God.

The above Walsch quote is not treading new ground, not by a long shot. Thats OK though. In my mind, as long as people consider statements such as the one above, Im a happy camper. It means folks are alive & breathing & not looking to gouge, maim or kill each other.

A beautiful thing indeed.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 19, 2000.

Id like to share with you the following:

The Cosmic Sea

When you find that your soul, your heart, every wisp of inspiration, every speck of the vast blue sky and its shining star-blossoms, the mountains, the earth, the whippoorwill, and the bluebells are all tied together with one cord of rhythm, one cord of joy, one cord of unity, one cord of Spirit, then you shall know that all are but waves in His cosmic sea.  Metaphysical Meditations by Paramahansa Yogananda

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 19, 2000.

God = love = enlightenment = good = heaven = understanding of the inner beauty of all things

Satan = hate = darkness = evil = hell = lack of understanding of the inner beauty of all things

-- Just me (@ .), May 19, 2000.

Bingo-What a wonderful quote-Yogananda is also one of my favorite authors-Autobiography of a Yogi should be required reading for all students.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 19, 2000.

FS, Lost me on these quotes, Walsh's logic is faulty here. The opposite of fear is courage, not God. The opposite of God would be evil, as in satan.

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), May 19, 2000.

FF,

If God is the creator, isn't satan a creation?

If God is everywhere, wouldn't the opposite of God be a Void?

-- flora (***@__._), May 19, 2000.

PS

To me, the opposite of love isn't fear either. They can be intertwingled.

Maybe if I had to put it in to words the opposite of love would be apathy, or antipathy. Very different from fear.

-- flora (***@__._), May 19, 2000.

Flora:

I understand what you are saying-Walsch's words are not always easy to understand-Maybe antipathy WOULD be a better opposite, at least in your world view that is what works and that is what is important. In cases like this, it is always important to define terms. What is your definition of fear?

As I have stated before, you could have love and fear co-existing, and decisions that you make could be made with a combination of these two things-though they may be polar opposites, they do not exist without each other-The point is THERE REALLY IS NO DUALITY. Everything is one, but dualities are created so we can experience matter in a way that helps develope our souls. Our souls know what the truth is, but they cannot experience the full glory of what they know without incarnating.

This is less a matter of fine shades of definition, and more a matter of what our common experience is-My Fear is your antipathy-your antipathy my fear-the words do not matter-

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 19, 2000.

FS,

I'm glad you wrote back. I went over your original post, and am playing bend 'em & twist 'em with it in my mind.

Actually, I don't know why I posted, it seemed important at the time.

I'm going through a season of tremendous personal losses and departures. My thoughts and emotions aren't expressing themselves willingly at times. I'm going to say something that will probably confuse most here, but it is the way I see things. I am a painter, and the prism I see the 'world' through is all about light, in a way. So the language I would use, to describe what I think his point was, would be tied in with the colors and shades on a palette. { eg. There is not One without the Other}.

I know a Lakota who sees it all as a hoop.

Hawk had a quote on an accompanying thread about 'life is eternal'. I wish we had as many words for life as the Eskimos have for snow. Where I sit at the moment, the soul or spirit may be eternal, but what we call life is not. I think we are cheating the concept of death, or an afterlife here. Fine little odd strange points, I know.

Thanks for the food for thought, gang.

-- flora (***@__._), May 19, 2000.

"The opposite of fear is courage, not God. The opposite of God would be evil, as in satan."

God IS courage. Satan is not real, he is a man-made illusion that we fabricate in our minds to rationalize when we make bad choices. Imagine driving down a highway toward the City of Love, where God lives and life is perfect. Out of curiosity, or to better understand our existence, some may turn around and drive in the opposite direction, away from Love. They experience fear because their soul tells them they are going in the wrong direction, away from God. The farther away they go, the more lost they become, because they lose touch with their God-consciousness. This doesn't mean they are "evil" or being forced by "Satan" to drive the wrong way, it simply means they are temporarily lost, and experiencing God to a lesser degree than those going toward him. It's all relative.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), May 19, 2000.

In my 'Conversations with God' he doesn't speak in words but somehow I understand.

Why am I here? ... to be alone with your thoughts apart from the whole of Heaven. To know what is you unmixed from all others; to individually emotionally mature, and to freely come back to me. (This is a gift.)

Somehow I know that I did leave or was put out and this life is a chance to grow and see things from a different point of view; to begin again, it's the very reason we start as babies (blank slates) and need to learn everything from the ground up.

I do not need to have every human experience because in Heaven we'll share them.

Jesus loves me and he is my role model.

I'm part child and part as old as the heavens.

I'm a child of God and intended to be God-like when I mature just as are many others.

We cannot appreciate the day unless we live through the night.

Some will dilibrately choose not to go to Heaven and this will be allowed.

-- r (r.1@juno.com), May 19, 2000.

Solipsism dressed in gobbledygook.

>"<

-- (nuts@upina.cellrelaytower), May 19, 2000.

satans great deception---convince man;that he doesn,t exist. works best on the intellectual-types. JESUS spoke alot about satan.

-- al-d (dogs@zianet.com), May 19, 2000.

Solipsism?

-- (speak@english.please), May 19, 2000.

Satan's great deception:

Convince man that God has a special place for those that do not "obey the rules"-Convince man that the outcome is not determined. Convince man that he has free will-but not really.

This is the C.S. Lewis argument that Al-D is using-I suggest to anyone to read the Screwtape letters-I have read it several times-it is a conversation between "satan's soldier" and one of his trainees on how to steal the soul of a man.

It is very clever, But I do not need the threat of damnation to act lovingly toward another-to obey laws-to do the next right thing-the whole point is to seek love for love's sake-not because if you do not you will be punished

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 19, 2000.

future shock,your right,love for loves sake.for love is of GOD. but to deny theres a satan, is not going to make him go away. of course,satan ain,t all that,anymore'JESUS defeated him 2000 years ago.--satan has too have a willing servant. satan feeds on pride.

-- al-d (dogs@zianet.com), May 19, 2000.

As I said before, I didn't read this series, but it certainly seems like a "religion" to me. That comment is based on the fervor demonstrated by those who share the author's opinions.

As you may know, I was raised with no religious training. In college, I decided to learn about this "thing" called religion, so read the Bible, Koran, Talmud, etc. As Gilda and I discussed in another thread at another time, knowledge of religion is inherent to cultural literacy. My overall conclusion was that the basic themes of all religions revolved around ensuring society's survival. I see another variation of that theme in the quotations you've presented.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 19, 2000.

"My overall conclusion was that the basic themes of all religions revolved around ensuring society's survival. I see another variation of that theme in the quotations you've presented."

Anita, the way we have developed our society is where we have done it all wrong, but whether or not it "survives" is not the issue. The message that Walsch delivers is not a religion, it is about acheiving an awareness of ourselves which allows us to be eternally happy. The desire to share this awareness comes with understanding that God's creation are All One. As more of each of us individually experience this joy of knowing, All of us as One will experience a higher reality, moving ever closer to our truly divine existence.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), May 19, 2000.

Hawk:

"The desire to share this awareness comes with understanding that God's creation are All One. As more of each of us individually experience this joy of knowing, All of us as One will experience a higher reality, moving ever closer to our truly divine existence."

I understand the concept of "We are one with nature, and we are one with the world." I even understand how illness [including mental illness] is oftentimes caused by being "out of harmony" with nature. However, when this concept of "one-ness" results in a sortof Borg- like evangelism, it takes the form of religion. I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with that; I'm simply stating that I noticed it.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 20, 2000.

Details! Words are trivial in this context, it is the ideas that are important. Fine, if you must give it a label, then call it a religion. But it is not a "religion" in the traditional sense as any that we know now. This awareness (religion?) does not discriminate as known religions do, it accepts everyone and everything. No rules, no if's and's or but's, it is simply an awareness of the Truth.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), May 20, 2000.

Anita, you said,

My overall conclusion was that the basic themes of all religions revolved around ensuring society's survival.

Well, for someone who *believes* in them, this would make sense. Your creator would *want* you to survive. Maybe the reason religion has been successful for so long is that it is portraying the truth, helping its followers to prosper.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 20, 2000.

Hi Anita. Surprised to see you weighing in on this subject. Good to have someone with a different perspective add to the mix.

I like your Borg reference. Of course, I like all things Star Trek (except Voyager). I look at it this way  the hive exists & has been depopulated. By hive I refer to the Creator, God, the Source, La Cucaracha, whatever label you wish to apply.

It is my belief each souls goal is to find its way back to the hive. Duality, Maya, Satan, is defeated. You will go out no more  no further need to reincarnate.

As to how each soul manages the journey, well, thats where karma & free will come in to play. The Law of Karma functions as a tote board of sorts. Merit badges are awarded, demerits charged. Each life begins with certain predilections based upon the soul record to date.

One of my goals each day is to learn about myself, learn the lessons I need to so I wont repeat the same mistakes over & over again, to not tally more bad karma. Perhaps Ill earn a merit badge or two by performing good deeds.

Another goal is to fill my heart with Love from the Source & let it overflow into the hearts of others with whom I come in contact. Meditation is one way I am able to connect to the Source. Chanting is another effective means of plugging in. Serving God through service to others is a favorite of mine  no sainthood awaits in this life, however. :)

My belief is there are many paths to the same goal  stopping the cycle of birth & death. Many of us seek others of similar outlook to share the journey in this life. Many join groups because of family allegiances. Many arent even aware of the rules  consciously. There are different evolutionary levels souls inhabit. Surely youve heard the comment, Hes an old soul.?

One of my dogs (Bingo Jr.) is sure to move up to a higher form next time around. Shes incredibly intelligent with a more complex personality than some people I know. The other dog (Frankie) is most definitely a first-time dog. Her heart is pure, she thinks only of food & petting. Ignorance is bliss if youre a dog! Her tail never stops wagging. I hope to have her again this life. Shes learning a great deal from Bingo & I try to stretch her to the limits of her comprehension.

The above paragraph may have you all shaking your heads. Perhaps a nervous chuckle or two. But understand, I have no children!

Bottom line for me is this  I try my best most of the time. I try not to hurt but to help myself & others. I cultivate good habits as my strength of will allows. I support anyone attempting to better themselves on the inside.

Peace to All,

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 20, 2000.

Anita:

Thanks for weighing in on this. I do not think of Walsch's stuff as religion, but it is certainly fine if you do. The reason for this series and this book is because I believe the principles espounded in it are worth discussing-I could have picked another text-perhaps the Celestine Prophecy(maybe later)-but I liked the Conversations series because it was so simple in its layout-Also, The Conversations series sold a TON of books, and I have not heard anyone in my immediate life saying they read it-I want to find out who did, and discuss it with them because I found the books fascinating.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 20, 2000.

I really WASN'T trying to criticize here, folks. I simply noticed the evangelism insofar as the concept of "if/when all unite in the spirit of LOVE" heinous crimes wouldn't be possible, as the crime is a function of not being one with LOVE." I think I got this interpretation from Hawk.

There's a somewhat interesting article in Brain.Com regarding the role of the orbitofrontal cortex in the The neuroscience of morality. Of course this article doesn't explain definitions of morality.

For SOME folks, concepts of morality are inherent. How is it that some folks are just BORN knowing that stealing, killing, lying, etc. are wrong? I'd have to buy into Bingo's philosophy on having been there, done that. However, I wouldn't necessarily buy into the concept of rushing to the Nirvana state.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 20, 2000.

Interesting article, Anita. It does make me shudder a might when I read of these types of studies in which the human whole is picked apart, pieces isolated & tested. We know so little about how we function as whole beings.

For instance, I experience energy flow in my body all the time. Call it prana, chi, lifeforce, etc. - I've yet to speak with ANY physician who understands what it is or even acknowledges it exists! I'd laugh if it weren't so damn sad. Two chiropractors I've had dealings with have studied chi & work with it, albeit without much skill.

There's a book out awhile now called The God Part Of The Brain by Matthew Alper. The author speculates the whole concept of the need for a God is really just "in our heads'! It is literaly built into our wiring. Art Bell interviewed him several times & I gotta tell you, his theory is just as plausible as any I've enunciated on this forum.

Best,

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 20, 2000.

"I really WASN'T trying to criticize here, folks. I simply noticed the evangelism insofar as the concept of "if/when all unite in the spirit of LOVE" heinous crimes wouldn't be possible, as the crime is a function of not being one with LOVE." I think I got this interpretation from Hawk."

I don't think I ever said that anything wouldn't be possible, that is the exact opposite of the way I think. Also, if you think I am being an "evangelist" for a "religion" you still don't understand at all, but I am aware that these are difficult concepts to understand until you have actually experienced them. It seems that most people need to be at a stage in their life when they are "ready" for this, and I know that we all reach that time eventually, so I certainly am not trying to force anything on you that you can't yet understand.

When the human race reaches this stage of a higher level of consciousness, we will see that there will be no need or desire for crime. It isn't that it wouldn't be possible, it's just that no one who is aware of their true self would even make such fear-based choices.

-- Hawk (flyin@hi.again), May 20, 2000.

Hawk:

"It seems that most people need to be at a stage in their life when they are "ready" for this, and I know that we all reach that time eventually, so I certainly am not trying to force anything on you that you can't yet understand."

I understood this 20 years ago, Hawk. I guess it's why I can't get whipped up about it now. You said something in another thread with which I TOTALLY agree. I don't want to open another window to find it now, but it had to do with morality being decided by the individual and hell being the feelings you get when you know you've done something wrong.

When I said that all the religions shared a similar base, which was survival of society, [Was it the term SOCIETY to which you objected?] you felt that was a problem. I don't agree with that. Let's take the 10 commandments as an example. If folks went around randomly killing people for fun, mankind wouldn't last long. This commandment [which is inherent in every religion in another form] made so much sense that laws were enacted to state the same thing. The same holds true for stealing. If I spend 3 hours carving a stick into a spear so that I might provide food for my family, the survival of my family is threatened if folks are allowed to walk off with my spear.

Society [as in the majority of the populace] doesn't need 100% compliance with these laws, and studies in brain function/genetic aberrations have demonstrated that it's nigh impossible to eliminate the percentage of homicidal maniacs or kleptomaniacs [at least without further knowledge of why they malfunction.] So, in this respect, the "we are all one, and that one is God" philosophy indicates that God has at least a percentage of warts that can't at this time be removed.

Physical aberrations and religions aside, how do we account for the folks [much like myself] who received absolutely NO religious training, were given no rules by which to live, but have in SOME fashion assimilated SOME rules of conduct of which they refuse to waver? I never even spanked my children. [I did, however, slap my son in the face when he threw broken cookies in my face, and I suffered my little hell on earth for THAT one.]

In summary, I guess what I'm saying is that if this is NEW to YOU, and makes sense to YOU, by all means get into it. The study in and of itself is surely interesting. I think, however, some of us learned about this in past lives, which might be a topic for another thread.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 21, 2000.

Anita,

"When I said that all the religions shared a similar base, which was survival of society, [Was it the term SOCIETY to which you objected?] you felt that was a problem. I don't agree with that."

You used those terms because you said wanted to label this discussion as another "religion." I don't "object" to the either of the ideas of "survival" or "society," I merely pointed out that you might be misunderstanding, because those concerns are not the focus of what we are discussing. Of course we can discuss those subjects if you like, but they are not the goal of the awareness we speak of, and thus I don't think this is a "religion," at least not the way you perceive it.

"Let's take the 10 commandments as an example. If folks went around randomly killing people for fun, mankind wouldn't last long."

I disagree. Do you think criminals care about the 10 commandments? We learn by experience much faster than we do by using mere words to make rules. Take the Columbine killings for example. Because of the REAL EXPERIENCE, we have taken more ACTION to express our unwillingness to accept this behavior, than we have over 2000 years of reading the 10 commandments. This is the only way the human race will truly evolve, through real experience. Reading the 10 commandments did not help the billions of people who stood by and watched Hitler kill 6 million others. We need to open the doorways to the awareness of who We truly Are, then we will be able to ACT based on our LOVE, rather than HIDE based on FEAR. That is the goal of this discussion. It's not about religion, or God, or Jesus, it is about increasing awareness that we also have a spiritual existence, and learning how to tap into that spiritual consciousness in that realm, or our "souls." Perhaps you might better understand where I'm coming from if I point out something... when I use the word "God," I do not use it in the same sense that is portrayed by religions. When I say God I am talking about a "force" in the universe, or "Our Higher Power." When I say Higher Power, I do not mean this as an individual entity external from Us. I mean *OUR* Higher Power.

-- Hawk (flyin@hi.again), May 21, 2000.

Hawk:

I understood your concept of God. I agree, also, that the publicizing of events such as Columbine and the Holocaust were indeed more successful at bringing violence as an issue to the forefront, and even in uniting group consciousness to abhorrence of the guilty. It sure beats a small paragraph on page 36 of the local newspaper.

If what you're saying is that group consciousness will help prevent these things from happening again in the future, I think you're partially correct. However, I don't foresee a time when this group consciousness will eliminate the "monsters." In fact, oftentimes, this group consciousness FEEDS the "monsters." I watched the story of Jim Jones on T.V. last night. He preached love for ALL, and his group wanted [needed] to believe. You know the end on that one.

My point was that for ANY philosophy, there requires a NEED for that philosophy. ANY wake-up call must be met with "Why did I NEED to be awakened?" Typically, there's SOMETHING about our lives with which we felt uncomfortable, which is why folks use terms like "You'll know the truth when..." Typically, there's SOMETHING we want to change. This need for change is equal in proportion to the zealousness with which we accept the change.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 21, 2000.

The NEED is definitely there, more now than ever before, and there are many signs that people are starting to discover this consciousness. These concepts are not easy to explain, so I'm going to have to take some time to elaborate... more later. The underlying principle though which supports this progression to a more enlightened humanity is the idea that there will be less desire to "fight for possession" of physical "things," thus the incentive for immoral acts will eventually disappear. In other words, when we become truly enlightened as to who we are, there will be little need for us to fight between ourselves, or struggle to survive. Think about it. :-)

-- Hawk (flyin@hi.again), May 21, 2000.

Hawk,

Have you read Gary Zukav's "The Seat of the Soul"?

If not, I think it may be up your alley.

-- flora (***@__._), May 21, 2000.

Hawk:

[I might mention that it's nice to see you online at the same time as I so that this conversation may unfold more like in a chat room than on a forum.]

*I* don't have a NEED, Hawk, which is one reason why I enjoy observing others who do. The realization that material objects were of little significance occurred to me LONG AGO. I have no NEED to fight for possession of my car if a car-jacker has a NEED for that car. In fact, when my car radio was stolen, I said, "Well, somebody needed it more than *I* did." This is not to say that I leave my house open for folks to take what they'd like, or leave my car unlocked as an invitation to thieves. It's simply to say that I put more emphasis on my overall well-being than I put on THINGS.

I might add that I've enjoyed this conversation.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 21, 2000.

OK 'nita, I'll bite...

"This need for change is equal in proportion to the zealousness with which we accept the change."

I'm still pondering that one. It seems to me that many folks have more of a 'need' for something to replace notions they had as children who were indoctrinated.

I hope I'm not offending folks out there, it's not my intention. Religion and issues of faith should be seen as an adult topic, and many operate from the understanding - or lack of it - that they had at the age of seven.

-- flora (***@__._), May 21, 2000.

Gad, I express myself poorly in words. Don't know why I bother, what I meant to say doesn't come through there - but maybe it'll fire off something in someone else's bean.

Logging off now...

-- flora (***@__._), May 21, 2000.

Sounds interesting Flora, I'll look into that, thanks!

Anita,

I'm glad for you, it sounds like you are very spiritually content. I have always rejected a good deal of the traditional value system of mainstream society, and in recent years I've been getting happier and happier by giving up the pursuit of "things." But like you say, observing others from this perspective is quite interesting. Look at our economy and stock markets, driven by phanatical consumerism. Some people can't be helped yet, they are still convinced that the material possessions are worth driving themselves crazy. I only wish to assure those who are truly lost that they need not fear, they can find true joy without having to join the rat race.

-- Hawk (flyin@hi.again), May 21, 2000.

Flora:

You hit it on the mark. I wasn't indoctrinated with anything when I was a kid, so I had no NEED to counteract the indoctrination. Had I been indoctrinated, the NEED for the counteraction would have equalled the indoctrination.

No offense intended to Future or Bingo, but they both feel they'd fallen off their path and look/looked to guidance for a way back. They found this guidance in either meditation or philosophies into which they can sink their teeth, yet still retain a semblance of what they liked about themselves. This is certainly admirable; however, I don't see it unlike the Born Again Christians who apparently felt SO FAR astray from their path that they desired a complete makeover.

Does this make any sense, Flora?

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 21, 2000.

Yes, I was always looking for a way back  to God. A way that made sense logically, that fed my heart, that spoke to me. A way that laid out the rules of the game.

I was raised Jewish but that wasnt my path. The faith as taught to me as a child provided a God who suffered from multiple personality disorder. A god who I wouldnt have as a friend much less a supreme being. I wasnt indoctrinated. Not that they didnt try! I was/am way too strong for that. Man I pissed off a lot of people because I asked questions. I was a precocious little bastard. :^)

I sought & begged & pleaded for answers, inwardly & outwardly. I researched from the time I was nine or ten years old. Id go to libraries & search for books on various religions/philosophies. I knew quite early that eastern philosophies, in general, were closer to what I was looking for than Judeo-Christian.

I learned to meditate when I was thirteen. My experiences in meditation gave me reinforcement that I was on the right track. Finally, when I was twenty-one years of age I read the book that changed my life.

You know folks, I dont discuss my spiritual practices & beliefs with anyone unless an inquiry is made. Never, ever, ever. I dont proselytize in my Gurus name. It doesnt work like that. Recruitment is a technique for the armed forces to implement.

As I mentioned before, a guru is just a guide, like the guy on the runway motioning the airplane into the docking apparatus. The guru isnt the goal, & if he/she says differently, Id turn & run like the wind. Only you can say which path is best for you.

Best,

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 21, 2000.

I'm so mad I could spit. I had a big post written on this subject and as I came to it late, I had responded to several people's posts. Then my book fell over and somehow disconnected me from the net. I hate god-damned computers.

So rather than try and rewrite the whole thing, I'm just going to say that having been raised a Christian, and having decided that was not for me, not ever, I'm happy to say that being a pantheist suits me fine and I do not need, nor want a god, or heavenly father, or a new book on love. But if it suits others, that's great. And like the book Bingo mentioned, I too think that "it's all wired into the head."

Some call the universe god among pantheists. I don't, but it's as close to something spiritual as I'll ever want, for as Anita mentioned about need, I don't have a need for things, and I don't need religion to tell me not to lie, steal and kill. And I'm happy. What more does one need, or want.

But as an aside, I was a bookseller for years and I think one has a more pessimistice view of big seller books once their indoctrinated into the book business. Most books are written for $$$$, plain and simple. Not every writer has a mystical call to "just write."

There's a little book called Chicken Poop for the Soul, by David Fisher, which is a parody of the those silly Chicken Soup books, and in it is an essay that is right on the truth, IMHO.

Here's a shortened, paraphrased version so I could to cut down the typing.

HOW I FOUND THE SECRET OF HAPPINESS I'd spent much of my life searching for happiness and it eluded me. I crossed deserts, climbed mountains, sat at the feet of gurus but still felt an emptiness. He goes on to tell how he read Depak Chopra, and how he was impressed with the joy of LeoBuscaglia and read his book, Living, Loving and Learning. And there was of course, Scott Peck, Robert Fulghum, and Marianne Williamson's books. (I might add to his list, The Celestine Prophecies by Redfield, and Why Bad Things Happen to Good People, Conversations With God, and of course C. S. Lewis and his boring stuff and the list goes on and on.)

Then he says, "I was plagued by worry and self-doubt. I knew there was a secret, all of these people seemed to have found it. What could it be? I wondered. What could these people have found that continued to elude me? And finally, like a bolt out of the bue, it came to me. One day, I discovered the secret of happiness. It had been right in front of me the whole time. To find happiness, I realized so clearly, just as all of these fine writers had done, all I had to do was make a small fortune writing my own best-selling inspirational book."

And this my friends is why they keep cranking out those chicken soup books and all those other books on finding God, finding happiness, finding your spiritual self, finding inner peace, finding love, losing that last 10 pouds, making a million dollars in six weeks and staying young forever. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), May 21, 2000.

"And this my friends is why they keep cranking out those chicken soup books and all those other books on finding God, finding happiness, finding your spiritual self, finding inner peace, finding love, losing that last 10 pouds, making a million dollars in six weeks and staying young forever. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$"

Cynicism makes for a comfortable chair. The danger is the broad brush use of cynicism. I have no doubt some do just as you point out, Gilda. I know you know better than to sweep them all under the rug of greed.

It is for this reason I've presented the point that one should not confuse messenger with message. Whether Walsch lives his life under less than scrupulous conditions or not is irrelevant to me. For example, it appears Walschs foundation charges an extra $27-$30 for an autographed copy of any of his books. Check the web site. This smells funny. Now I have never understood the need to have an autograph, period. Nevertheless, to charge for this nicety is IMO twisted. Particularly given the nature of the mans work.

I find it necessary to do a scratch test on those I deal with personally. Our lives are interconnected, therefore motives are everything in my eyes. When it comes to a person I have no personal contact with such as an author, I simply take what I can use & toss the rest.

BTW, Ive never thanked you for contributing to society via your former book-selling business. I remember you stating you did so to feed your habit as a voracious reader. You also performed a civic duty by providing a source for feeding the habits of others in your community. A tip of the cap to all booksellers!

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 21, 2000.

Bingo, thanks for your post. You are right to a degree, for I am guilty of painting those with a broad brush that write, self-help, religious and diet books. I have read the biographies and auto-biographies of too many authors that write this sort of books to not be cynical.

For any author to charge for an autograph is disgusting and "twisted." After all, if it weren't for the reading public shelling out $20 to $30 for the books, they wouldn't be in business. If Walsch charges for an autograph, you can bet all he cares about is the almighty buck, and believe me plenty of people know how to write in order to push the buttons of the searching and the needy.

As some of you know, I wrote a regular column on books until the end of 99'. And I attended a few writers worshops where authors taught writing classes. Every, single author I talked to thought charging for an autograph was a really low-life thing to do, and it is. To me this guy loses all credibility with his "love" message when he charges the people who made him rich. Pretty cheap I'd say, and not much love of his readers involved.

The reason people want autographs are various. But for some it is a hobby to collect the books of their favorite authors, for others they want only signed, lst editions, some want them signed for bragging rights.

And I can tell you about a few of the nicest authors that give autographs and would not think of charging a dime. Three of them are Stephen King, Dean Koontz and Sue Grafton. They signed my books, returned them promptly and sometimes sent a nice letter or some token of gratitude. Sue Grafton sends me a Christmas card every year. And she did this long before I wrote an article about her alphabet series. Three of the worst were Jack Anderson, Susan Powter and Barbara Kingsolver; Jack Anderson and Susan Powter never signed my books, nor returned them to me, even though I enclosed an addressed stamped mailer. Barbara Kingsolver sent back a form letter saying she was too busy to sign books, but then she signed a book for a customer of mine.

Also, I consider it unethical for a bookseller to ask for an autograph, just so they can sell the book for more money. I only asked for autographs for books I was going to keep.

Signed books can sometimes be worth thousands of dollars, especially if it's a presentation copy. But it's a tedious thing to get involved in, and sometimes you wait a long time for your books to come back.

What a nice thing for you to say about book-sellers, including me. Now here's another interesting observation on people. I was in the antiques business before I changed over to the book business. In the anitques business I met some really crooked people. But I was amazed at how much more ethical booksellers are.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), May 22, 2000.