Several weeks ago I promised to start posting on what I feel is a landmark spiritual text-Conversations with God by Neil Donald Walsch. The author states the text was dictated to him by God itself, and I will be qouting from "god" in this series. In my opinion, Walsch did not cover new ground-instead what he was able to do was create the most concise, easy to read synthesis of the many spiritual traditions I have read. This series is to stimulate discussion on this important book:

Qoute 1 "It was your parents who taught you that love is conditional-you have felt their conditions many times-and that is the experience you take into your own love relationships.

It is also the experience you bring to me.

From this experience you draw your conclusions about me(God). Within this framework you speak your truth. "God is a loving God", you say, "but if you break his commandments, he will punish you with eternal banishment and everlasting damnation."

For have you not experienced the banishment of your own parents? Do you not know the pain of their damnation? How, then, could you imagine it to be any different with me?

You have forgotten what it is like to be loved without condition. You do not remember the experience of the love of God. And so you try to imagine what God's love must be like, based on what you see of love in the world.

You have projected the role of "parent" onto God, and have thus come up with a God WHO judges and rewards or punishes, based on how good he feels about what you have been up to. But this is a simplistic view of God, based on your mythology. It has nothing to do with Who I Am."

Your thoughts?

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 18, 2000

Answers

In my belief system, all is Love. And Love is the product of Beauty and Understanding. Everything else is illusion.

-- Just me (@ .), May 18, 2000.

Just me: are you the old "just me at my house"?

I like what you said very simple-very true. As I said on another thread everything is truth.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 18, 2000.

IMHO, Love is not a product. Love is.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 18, 2000.

FS,

Neil Donald Walsch appeared on Art Bell's show (excuse me while I wipe away the tears) last year. Unfortunately, Art had his archived shows removed when he retired from radio last month (more tears).

Walsch came across pretty well.

More later.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 18, 2000.

Future:

I haven't read this series, but the quotes you gave reminded me of how some parents use "love withdrawal" as a punishment for their children. "If you don't do as I say, I won't love you any more." IMO, this is even worse than suggesting that a child is a "bad boy", or "bad girl" because they did a bad THING.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 18, 2000.

Bingo-

Well said. Love IS. correct. As far as Walsch, I am not completely enamored of him; I believe he lifted something directly from James Redfield(Celestine Prophecy) and put it in Conversations with God, Book 3 without giving credit.

BUT, I have always believed that literature has a life of its own beyond what an author intended; that the author is a vehicle, a vessel, through which the muse is heard. In this way, I can appreciate what is in the literature while at the same time feel as I may about the author. I feel it is much more important how I feel about what I have read then figuring out what the author intended.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 18, 2000.

I've just gotten into Mr. Walsch's last book of the series and must say that I agree with every word he has written.

Indeed, LOVE, is the key. Love ourselves, love one another, what else is there?

-- Richard (Astral-Acres@webtv.net), May 18, 2000.

His line works o.k. for basically good people, but how about for evil? To the Hitler who thinks he's doing God's work, what do you say when he says he is acting the way God wants him to?

More importantly, don't you think God would be upset at (Hitler's) actions towards His other creations, even if he still "loves" him? How is that different than "acting like a parent"?

There's a difference between unconditional love and saying "anything goes" IMO.

This though, And so you try to imagine what God's love must be like, based on what you see of love in the world.

is hard to argue with. After all, besides what we see and (for all the Christians out there :-) ) His revealed word in the Bible, what else do we have to go on?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 18, 2000.

Bingo,

More precisely, Love is the product of understanding the inner beauty of every thing. The kid who was the video freak in "American Beauty" had it right. Unfortunately, society deems stuff like that as borderline schizophrenic, while viewing violence and sexual degradation as normal. In that way, society is sort of like the parents in Conversations with God referred to in the original post.

"When you look into the abyss, the abyss looks back at you" - Nietzche

-- Just me (@ .), May 18, 2000.

Frank:

What else we have is the direct experience of God within-God gives us the ability to experience this. It states later in the book that all masters(Jesus, Buddha) understood what this love was, and chose love in every situation(More on this in later chapters).

Unfortunately, many christian traditions do not emphasize meditation, and this activity more than any other, for me anyway, can put me in touch with an unadulterated communion with God where I experience unconditional love. The action that does not hurt ourself or another in any physcial or spirtual way is the choice of love.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 18, 2000.

Beautifully said, FS.

One of the real frustrations I have is in attempting to communicate with most Christians regarding experiencing God within. Because meditation is not part of mainstream Christian teachings, there's simply no way to get on the same page.

I experience God daily. This statement drives most Christians I know up the wall! I've been blessed lately to be very aware of prana (chi, lifeforce) flowing freely through/in/out/over my body. It's like a soft, loving hug. I'm aware of my connection to the Source & it's a beautiful thing!

Meditation isn't a requirement for spiritual experience. Various techniques (there are thousands) are merely vehicles which can help some of us to evolve more quickly. To experience (there's that word again) expansion of consciousness.

There are substances which can help us gain contact as well. Psilocybin mushrooms are effective, as is marijuana. These substances must be used ritually with the correct set & setting, otherwise trouble may ensue.

Devotional chanting is a great way to make contact with God. It is one of my particular favorites as I physically can't sit for long periods of meditation.

Prayer, one-on-one with the Creator, is something we can do anytime, anywhere. Have a talk with God (Stevie Wonder, Songs in the Key of Life).

Enough Bingo!

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 18, 2000.

As I talked about in another thread, the only unconditional love you will ever encounter is the love of a canine. Dog (god spelled backwards) love is an anomaly. Also, your parents... If they are loving parents, they will love you no matter what happens or what you do. At least that is my experience. Trying to fit the human version of love to God, is like trying to fit a tricycle tire on a Peterbilt.

snoozin' and snoozin'...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), May 18, 2000.

and JESUS said''father fogive them,for they know NOT what they do'' that,s love.who can understand agape love? GOD IS LOVE. GOD WAS IN CHRIST-RECONCILING. adam blew it in the garden-GOD immediatly provides a lamb.

-- al-d (dogs@zianet.com), May 18, 2000.

7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only son into the world that we might live through him.

10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we ought to love one another.

12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

There was a time in my life when I thought I loved but I did not.

When I began dropping the barriers, breaking down the brick walls of non-love between me and my fellow man this is when I began to expierience the richness of God's love.

When I became a parent I began to understand the extent of God's love for us.

-- (in@the.bible), May 18, 2000.

Oh Yeah thats 1st John chapter 4

-- (in@the.bible), May 18, 2000.

I am not worthy! I am not worthy!

-- (nemesis@awol.com), May 18, 2000.

FutureShock- I read Book 1&2 about 3 years ago and Book 3 about 2 weeks ago. This time it really touched me much more than before. I can say that it really lifted some depression that I was feeling. But once I thought about the concept of us getting exactly what we ask for in life, and realizing everything was crappy at the moment, made me depressed again. Why do I do this to myself? Have you read a Course in Miracles?

-- Gia (laureltree7@hotmail.com), May 19, 2000.

Bingo, you said,

I experience God daily. This statement drives most Christians I know up the wall!

It doesn't drive me up the wall, I'm very happy for you. I also feel the presence of God in my daily life.

FS,

I was thinking about this thread when I was driving home (I've got a decent drive, and this forum is great to fill it!). Anyway, I think what bothers me with it is that without even having READ the book, I've got the notion that it is sort of a last gasp of the 60's. Drugs didn't work in one's 20-30's, toys didn't work in the 30-40's, now people are hitting their 50's and are deep enough to feel that a spiritual reality exists, but still can't quite commit to anything where they don't get to do as they please. Hence a book about God that talks about how great everything is, but is non-judgemental about whatever your particular quirks are.

Now FS, this is the tough part: Since I've said I haven't read the book, the above statement demonstrates nothing more than my personal prejudices. What do *you* think, is it remotely near the truth, or not?

Frank

P.S. If anyone wants bonus points, try and reconcile my statement to Bingo with my FS one.

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 19, 2000.

No, here's the statement that drives Christians up the wall... I am God. Blasphemy!...they will say. How dare you! Of course I don't mean that any single one of us is The God, but that we were All part of His creation, and thus, We Are All, God.

Even though Jesus told us "Ye are Gods," and the Bible says "God created man in His own image," they still don't get it. They prefer to believe that even though God gave us free will to do as we choose, we are "sinners" or "possessed by the devil" if we choose to learn by EXPERIENCE, rather than simply following rules which religious tyrants use to manipulate the "masses," not in order to serve God, but to serve themselves, increasing their reign of power.

The sad truth is that most people who fall victim to religions are co-dependent type personalities. Religion is the provider of abuse to their self-esteem, and they habitually feel the need to be abused, so they become dependent on it, instead of believing in themselves. They like to be led around on a leash, and told to feel shame for doing anything that they truly want to do. They fear real experience, so they find comfort in having their fears justified by being spelled out for them in a book of printed words, rather than learning firsthand that there really is nothing to fear.

It may be hard for some to accept that most of what we have been taught is a lie, but when certain "tryants" maneuver themselves into postions of power over us, it is important to understand that it isn't necessarily because those people are intrinsically "evil," but more likely because we ALLOWED it to happen, because of lack of faith in ourselves. We have missed out on many opportunities to prove that the spirit of God, the "good" within us, can prevail over the "evil". It is time to stop thinking of ourselves as inferior to God, and start believing that He gave us all the same power of love that He is.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), May 19, 2000.

Frank: To the Hitler who thinks he's doing God's work, what do you say when he says he is acting the way God wants him to?

Look at the end results of any actions, Frank. Not just with the five senses. Use your intuition, your conscience. Did Hitler act in accordance with Divine Law  as you know it?

Frank: More importantly, don't you think God would be upset at (Hitler's) actions towards His other creations, even if he still "loves" him? How is that different than "acting like a parent"?

This is personification, isnt it? Attributing human emotion to God? I understand the need to make God more human. It is much easier to communicate, conceptualize something that is so much larger than ourselves. However, I dont give God negative attributes in my own personal concept, nor have I ever experienced negativity when communing with God.

Frank: There's a difference between unconditional love and saying "anything goes" IMO.

Again this is personification. Unconditional Love is all I am able to comprehend from God. Anything less & it wouldnt be God, it would be god.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 19, 2000.

Frank:

Your question to me cannot be answered-in some sense. I can say your not even in the same ballpark-I can say I believe the book to be the revealed word of GOd and I know we would disagree based on our prior debates.

What I will say is please continue to lurk or post on this series, because I have weeks of this planned-A qoute a day. We may not change each other's mind, but we will learn from one another. EVERYTHING IS THE TRUTH.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 19, 2000.

BTW, I failed to mention how much I appreciate your posts, Frank.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 19, 2000.

RE: Franks post which ended with, Hence a book about God that talks about how great everything is, but is non-judgemental about whatever your particular quirks are.

I have a take on drugs which is dissimilar to most peoples. For me to expound would require quite a few Kb. Nonetheless, Ill give a synopsis. Ritual use of drugs is virtually unheard of in this country. By ritual use I mean controlled set & setting. Use of the drug for spiritual exploration, NOT recreation. The worst of the 1960s drug culture exhibited utter stupidity with regards to drug usage. Anything, all the time was the mantra for these people. Discipline was frowned upon as the shackling of the human spirit. One of the net effects of this was bad experiences individually & the crackdown by TPTB on ALL drugs except those already ingrained in our society  alcohol, tobacco, valium, etc. This was/is a tremendous loss.

Frank, when you speak of the last gasp of the 1960s, that drugs didnt work, that writings such as Walsch, Redfield, Chopra & others are non-judgmental attempts to create that long-sought touchy-feely utopia (my words), I think you miss the mark. It was a failure, not of the drugs, but of the individuals & of the society.

For further reading I refer you to several books written by Dr. Andrew Weil, notably The Natural Mind, The Marriage Of The Sun & The Moon, Chocolate To Morphine. Fascinating reading. It may change your opinion on drugs & drug use forever.

Lastly, I believe you do not have a solid understanding of the Law of Karma & the Theory of Reincarnation. These are essential to comprehension of Eastern ways of thought such as expounded by the authors mentioned above.

Best,

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 19, 2000.

Hi Everyone,

Neale Donald Walsch was on Larry King Live a couple of weeks ago. He was on the second half of the show so you'll have to scroll down a bit on the link.

Larry asked him questions about Hitler. Good reading.

FutureShock,

I've been looking forward to you starting this series. I had just about given up when I saw your posting this morning. Thanks. I think many are going to be amazed by the words they'll find here.

Hawk,

You obviously have a deep understanding of the principles put forth by Walsch. I think your contribution in this series is going to be very important.

Bingo1,

Walsch has been interviewed by both Bell and King. Such extremes. I think that it is a good indication that society as a whole is ready for the "conversation."

-- Debra (let's@talk.com), May 19, 2000.

Debra:

Glad you are here with us. The moral of the story is NEVER GIVE UP : )

Life happens. I have been doing so many other things. I had to find the book, and now I am re-reading the book to select the qoutes. All things come at the right time-so it IS time for this series.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 19, 2000.

FutureShock

"but if you break his commandments, he will punish you with eternal banishment and everlasting damnation."

Not true. It's not the sin of disobedience that reaps everlasting damnation. It's not admiting to it and repenting of it that gets you there.

-- I believe in Him (Jesus is King@Kingdom.come), May 19, 2000.

I believe:

I will not refute you now. There is so much more to come that addresses your point.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 19, 2000.

Thanks for the link to the transcript.

The first quote that jumps out at me: "So I got to the age of 49, 50 years old and I said, OK, what are the rules? Somebody tell me the rules , because I don't understand how this is supposed to go."

The rules! Exactly! Growing up, I couldn't understand the rules of this game (of life). The Old Testament didn't apply to me. The god in those books had multiple-personality disorder. A perfect being who lashed out in anger? No, these were not rules I could call legitimate.

Walsch was in despair. I know what that's about. He demanded answers. And he received them. Importantly to me, he isn't 100% certain it was God he spoke to. I like that very much.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 19, 2000.

Bingo,

I wasn't trying to say that *I* couldn't decide whether (Hitler's) action's were right or wrong, but to say that someone like Hitler actually may believe *they are doing the right thing*.

Therefore, the problem with your "God is man personified" theory is that it *assumes* that someone has what we would consider a *normal* conscience to be applicable. For a sociopath, do you believe that whatever they do would be pleasing to God regardless of how the rest of society sees it?

Also, with regards to the drugs, actually I agree with you. I meant the whole 60s *cultural* use, whereas some Indians using peyote may be a good thing *for them*.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 19, 2000.

Hi Debra! Thanks for that link! It's excellent - I didn't know he was on Larry King.

Here is one of the more important points he made...

"In fact there are two lesson that he (God) taught me. He said, if you take these two lessons, everything else in your life will make sense suddenly and you'll have no more worries. These two are quite simple -- life is eternal, and we're all one."

If you remember this, life becomes a joy, like a ride in an amusement park... instead of a struggle. When we stop fighting... stop trying to "get all we can get, before we're gone," we see that the real treasures of life are available for us to experience as we please.

Frank, with regard to certain individuals who you perceive to be driven by evil forces, I would suggest that they serve a purpose, a standard by which we can gauge our own spiritual growth. Looking back over many years, it seems we are still having some difficulty learning from these examples, but they are really a reflection of All of Us, and where we stand in the big picture. Everything happens for a reason. It is the misconception taught by religions that we are not responsible for these individuals (because they are products of "Satan," an isolated entity), that has in effect acted as an excuse for not accepting responsibility for the condition of our world. If it hadn't been for religions using so-called "evil forces" as a scapegoat for our own lack of consciousness, we would be light years ahead of where we are now in our progression toward our complete self-realization as children of God. (check out those transcripts, I think you'll like them) :-)

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), May 19, 2000.

I'm trying to understand your last post, but I can't seem to connect the dots. I give Hitler the benefit of the doubt in that he believed he was doing the right thing. I don't get where you're going here. Do I think people are free to do as they please? Obviously we are. Is there a price to pay - I believe so. It is played out via Karma/Reincarnation.

When I mention personification I refer to the Old Testament god(s). I refer to anyone who associateds human emotion with God. I don't subscribe to that scenario.

Best,

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 19, 2000.

Bingo1 wrote, and I quote:

"The first quote that jumps out at me: 'So I got to the age of 49, 50 years old and I said, OK, what are the rules? Somebody tell me the rules , because I don't understand how this is supposed to go.'

The rules! Exactly! Growing up, I couldn't understand the rules of this game (of life). The Old Testament didn't apply to me. The god in those books had multiple-personality disorder. A perfect being who lashed out in anger? No, these were not rules I could call legitimate."

Exactly...

"Life is a game. Life is the only game where the object of the game is to figure out all the rules..." - unknown

Unconditional love... I see it every day in my dog's eyes. It IS wonderful. Imagine loving everyone the same way... and vice versa.

"BEEEEP"

"Ok Mr. Dog your therapy session is over..." (GRRRR...)

Modern life and it's problems has a way of interfering with your "contact" with the creator, IMHO. The constant static and noise we live in today takes it's toll, mentally and physically.

I have yet to read Mr Walsch. I may have to go find his writings... Thanks FutureShock...

watchin' the bird...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), May 19, 2000.

Hey Dog, I know what ya mean about the canines. My handle is my oldest dog's name - Bingo. I added the "1" because I'm the alpha dog!

Best,

P.S. My nephew named her Bingo. She doesn't seem to mind too much.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 19, 2000.

"The constant static and noise we live in today takes it's toll, mentally and physically."

Even more so, spiritually. If we can get ourselves in good health spiritually, mental and physical health will naturally follow.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), May 19, 2000.

FS, I have not read any of Neil Donald Walsch's books, I have only read reviews. When I see something like this however, healthy sceptism kicks in right away, as it did for the claims of Y2K disaster. First thoughts: 1.Who is Neil Donald Walsch? Do you know his background, other things he has done or written?

2. You stated "In my opinion, Walsch did not cover new ground-instead what he was able to do was create the most concise, easy to read synthesis of the many spiritual traditions I have read." I find it rather incredulous that one could have a conversation with God in any detail and not learn a few totally new things ;)

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), May 19, 2000.

Bingo1, you said,

Do I think people are free to do as they please? Obviously we are. Is there a price to pay - I believe so.

That's really what I was trying to find out. I have *NO* problem with unconditional love, but believe that it's a different thing than evasion of responsibility for one's actions.

Regardless of your other personal beliefs, if you believe that in some way we are held accountable for our actions, that's good enough for me.

WARNING: EARLIER THREAD REHASH TO FOLLOW: My problem with some of (what I would consider) new-age philosophizing is the *absence* of personal responsibility from the equation. For example, Hawk says,

but they are really a reflection of All of Us, and where we stand in the big picture.

Hawk, I'll sort of change horses in mid-stream here, as I'm using your post as an example. I don't believe people are *possessed* by evil (in general), they *choose* it. This makes their actions representative of THEM, not everyone. And at some point we will each be held accountable for what we have done, and what we have failed to do.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 19, 2000.

Frank, I'm glad we understand each other on the resposibility issue.

I would really be pissed if our actions were irrelevant as far as the big picture is concerned. I know I would still be governed by my conscience, however. Probably. :^)

I wonder what others, who's actions are governed in no small part because of the possible price to pay at the end of life on earth, would do if it were discovered tomorrow that there is no God, no afterlife, no consequence for their actions save the immediate outcome.

Something to think about.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 19, 2000.

"WARNING: EARLIER THREAD REHASH TO FOLLOW: My problem with some of (what I would consider) new-age philosophizing is the *absence* of personal responsibility from the equation. For example, Hawk says,

but they are really a reflection of All of Us, and where we stand in the big picture.

Hawk, I'll sort of change horses in mid-stream here, as I'm using your post as an example. I don't believe people are *possessed* by evil (in general), they *choose* it. This makes their actions representative of THEM, not everyone. And at some point we will each be held accountable for what we have done, and what we have failed to do.

Frank"

Frank, you're missing the point. We are ALL ONE. I believe in TOTAL individual responsibility, because when we each take responsibility it makes the world better for ALL of us. The fact that you are willing to stand by and watch someone kill someone else means you are lacking the responsibility for the part you play in the WHOLE. Jesus told us that with the power of our God-given ability for love, we can live Heaven on earth, yet we didn't believe him, so we stood by and watched him be crucified. It happened many times again with examples such as Hitler, and yet we still have no faith in ourselves. We simply stood by and watched millions be killed. WE ARE ALL just as responsible as Hitler was for what happened, and that is what our individual responsibility is all about. It isn't just about making reality better for ourselves, it is about making reality better for Everyone, since We Are All One in God's eyes. It isn't going to work until we understand this.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), May 19, 2000.

FactFinder: You asked:

"First thoughts: 1.Who is Neil Donald Walsch? Do you know his background, other things he has done or written?"

In my opinion, this is irrelevant-not your question-I appreciate the skepticism, but who wrote the words. I have stated elsewhere that it is the words that count, not the author. I am not a follower of Walsch-I follow no one man, no on tradition, the object of having a spiritual teacher, if you choose to have one, is to find out you never needed one-Idolizing is dangerous in the spiritual realm-This is why I am not concerned who he is; he could be a reformed mass murderer or not-reformed for that matter. The muse spoke through him- so the body is not important.

You also said:

"I find it rather incredulous that one could have a conversation with God in any detail and not learn a few totally new things ;)"

I have read hundreds of books over several decades-I am a passionate seeker of truth, and have undertaken the spiritual quest with an open mind and a heart of fire-Because of the open mind I have read books of many traditions-Kabbalah, Astrology, Christian Mystic, Lao Tse, Buddhism, Mormonism, Judaism-name an ism-I've studied it-So I am very well read, and the ironic twist is this-Elsewhere in his book he states that God is speaking to all of us at all times-That in fact, we are here to "remember who we are"-that life is not a learning process but a process of remembering-therefore it is not odd that I did not find an entirely new concept in his book; I found UNIQUE ways of expressing the general concepts I feel in my heart, my soul in his book, but because there is nothing any of us cannot know or do not know, I feel there is no contradiction

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 19, 2000.

Bingo,

It probably won't happen too often, but I believe that in this we are both on the same page, both in what you said, and what you didn't.

Hawk, you said,

We simply stood by and watched millions be killed. WE ARE ALL just as responsible as Hitler was for what happened, and that is what our individual responsibility is all about.

I wonder if you really believe that. For example, a murder will be committed *somewhere* in the U.S. today, can I throw YOU in jail for it (and would that be just)? Do you think that our collective responsibility extends that far, or not? Will base next post on your response.

Sometimes it takes me awhile to understand things,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 19, 2000.

Frank, yes I do believe what I said because I know it is true. Again, I think you are failing to understand the bigger picture.

Have you ever seen the way that geese fly in a formation, or fish swim in a school? They do this instinctively, for 2 reasons... it both ensures that the individual has a better chance to survive, and that the group as a whole has a better chance to survive. Each individual is an important part of the group... without the individuals there would be no group. Without the group, the individual would not survive, so there would be no individuals to form a group. See how that works?

The human species is no different, we just think we are. It isn't nearly as simple as me saying that I will take the blame for a person who commits a crime, and then have the rest of society look the other way the next time it happens. We've got to look hundreds of years over the past of the human race, understand that We have created this reality where these things happen, accept responsibility, and strive to change it. None of us created this reality by ourselves, we All did it together (the mass consciousness), but each of us is a part of the Whole. There is strength in numbers, and we each need to understand that we are part of the Whole in order to realize Our full potential as part of God's creation.

In the even grander scheme of things, mankind needs to understand that we are just a small part of a much larger relationship with the rest of God's creation, but we first need to learn how to apply this among our own species before we can become harmonious with All.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), May 20, 2000.

Hawk,

That doesn't answer the question though. Are you responsible DIRECTLY for the actions of another or not? Work with me here, to start simply in the scenario I described, would it be acceptable to throw you or anyone in jail for the crimes committed by someone else? Why or why not?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 20, 2000.

Frank, of course not.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), May 20, 2000.

Hawk,

Then we might not be as far apart as I thought. So even if you believe *in some way* we're all responsible for each other, we're not *directly* responsible for their actions. Would that be a fair summary of your belief? That would jive with my own.

My point to add to this is that just as there is some level at which you are NOT responsible for your neighbor (you don't have to go to prison for him) there is a level where EACH INDIVIDUAL is accountable for their actions and their actions alone. This is the realm dictated by one's religion.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 20, 2000.

To clarify, I guess the societal level of responsibility is ALSO covered by one's religion, but I wasn't focussing on it, I didn't mean to purposefully exclude it.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 20, 2000.