Are you religious? Were you brought up in any particular faith? What are your spiritual beliefs now? Do you go to church or regular worship services?

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

Answers

I was brought up Presbyterian. My parents were regular church goers. My father was till he died, my mom has drifted away though I think she still believes.

I'm now a Goddess worshipper, have been for about 15 years. In the past I went to regular meetings with people, but am not a member of a group right now.

I feel more kinship with religious people, even the religious right, than militant athiests, which many of my friends are. I don't even know many religious people.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

I am Episcopalian by birth, and growing up I went to church fairly regularly, sang in the choir and was confirmed at the age of 13. Unfortunately, my actual religious education was fairly non-existent, as the church I attended was more of a status symbol for social climbers. It was pretty disgusting and turned me off to the concept of religion at a very early age.

I no longer belong to any organized religion, however I have a firm belief in the existence of a higher power. I think in many ways organized religion of any sort tends to alienate people, and it seems silly to me that anyone would actually believe that their admission to heaven is contingent on what sort of God they believe in.

I try to be a good person, to treat people fairly and with kindness, and to make an effort to understand and respect the diversity of those around me. If adhering to a specific belief system works for someone it is really not up to me to judge them for it, and I hope that they will refrain from judging me.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

My father is an Anglican priest, and I was raised Anglican. However, I found the church to be a huge waste of my time, since I didn't believe a word of it. I was basically there to keep Dad happy. So I stopped going when I was in high school. When I was in college, I discovered Wicca. That was seven years ago, but I've only been a witch for two years. I really sat down and examined things before I decided what I wanted to do.

I'm happy with my beliefs. I've always believed in a higher power, but Christianity wasn't it for me. I find that Paganism allows me to make my own choices, and allows me the freedom to accept what I want. I can't stand it when people tell me that I'm going to Hell because I don't believe in their religion. I think that tolerance should be something that every religion practices, in more than just name.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

My parents are of differing religious upbringings- Dad Catholic, Mom Methodist. They were going to have her convert, but Dad threw a shit fit when he found out that converting meant that he'd have to give a lot of money to the church. They continued with separate religions, but had to baptize me Catholic or my grandma'd cry forever. I've maybe been in a Catholic church twice since then. Parents did take me to the Methodist church (Dad's off Catholicism) as a child for a bit, but they ended up fighting after every service and quit.

In short, I have very little interest in religion, and am fairly disgusted that about all of them seem to be so disgustingly discrimiatory and/or full of crap. Paganism is the one I can fairly relate to, but I just don't have that much motivation to really practice it fully.

Though oddly enough I seem to be attracted to guys with religious titles. The two I've dated the most were a deacon and a minister with ULC ;) (He believes in religion, but not in God, if you get that one)

I believe in God, but not necessarily Jesus (and I've never gotten the whole Jesus thing), and NOT religion.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

I'm Catholic, born and raised. I went to a Catholic primary school but not secondary school. I went to mass at least once a week until I was about 16. I was confirmed at the age of 14.

I'm still Catholic, but I don't go to mass very often (I'm not lapsed, I'm just resting!). My beliefs are very strong, but I don't feel the need to be in church once a week to prove it - to me, the way you live your life and your attitudes to everything are more telling than where you spend an hour each Sunday.

Tristan is completely agnostic, and this did cause problems when we were planning the wedding, because I couldn't imagine not getting married by a priest, whereas he couldn't see the point of it at all. He did raise a really interesting point - I was assuming that, because I believed and he didn't, my belief should win 'because at least I believe in something'. He pointed out that his choice to not believe is as valid as my choice to believe. And he's right - that's made me more tolerant (though it's not like I was ever religiously hounding people and pressing bibles on them in the past).

We got married by a priest in an inter-denominational church, and the priest was great - he knew Tristan wasn't religious, so the service (which was obviously only a blessing and not a full mass) was light on the God stuff and heavy on the marriage is a joining of two people stuff, which suited us both really well.

I will definitely have my children baptised and raise them Catholic, and if they want to rebel against this as adults that will be entirely their choice.

I must admit I find 'happy clappers' and door-knocking religions hilarious. If you believe then great, you shouldn't need to convert anybody to give your belief validity. My faith is very private - it's between me and God, and I'm fairly sure he still loves me despite my lack of appearance at mass recently!

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

My mum is Church of England, and while she doesn't attend church she does believe in God and spends time every day reading the Bible. My dad was raised Protestant. His grandmother was a member of the Free Church of Scotland (he tells stories of having to go around with her on Saturday evenings to remove chocolate bars from vending machines so that nobody could buy them on a Sunday) but despite his family's best efforts he rejected organized religion. It is something he never talks about but I do know that when it came time for him to join the Masons he felt he couldn't live up to the religious requirements.

I was christened when I was a baby, more as a matter of social form than anything. I went through a phase of wanting to be a nun. That quickly passed and I became a Wiccan. Now I don't practice any kind of structured worship, but I do miss it in a way.

My husband is an atheist through and through. We were married by a Unitarian minister who let us write our own vows. It was a wonderful ceremony, very personal and moving. When we went to get our license beforehand though we were told that we had to fill in the religion question, and 'atheist' was not allowed. Now I think the clerk was full of it, but at the time we just wanted the license.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

When I was eight years old, one of my Christian girlfriends told me I was going to hell because I was Catholic. I told my mom, who got very angry and had a long talk with her parents. It was then and there that I decided that something was very fucked up with this whole religion thing.

I definitely believe in a higher power. I don't believe that you should have to give money to a church every Sunday to prove that you are a believer. I refuse to believe that every other religion in the world is wrong and that all of the people who don't accept Jesus as their savior are going to hell. I have a hard time thinking that people who commit murder, adultery, and molest children, but accept Jesus in to their hearts before they die, deserve to spend eternity amongst people with good kind hearts who live an honest responsible life, but don't choose to embrace a religion.

Living in the South has only increased my religion issues. You know what? I don't want to be screamed at in church. I don't believe that woman should be submissive wives and obey their husbands, and I don't give a shit what it says about that IN THE BIBLE. "Returning to a time when woman knew their role in the family" was the basic theme of the Baptist revival, which was in the news the first week I moved here. I don't want to sit in church and listen to what the rest of the world is doing wrong. I don't want to save homosexuals or deviants. All I want is to be a better person and to build my own personal relationship. I once told my father in law (a baptist preacher) that I had issues with the bible, that I thought the bible was just a book, that I believed it to be an interesting read, but written by man, and therefore flawed and inconsistent. You would have thought I had just declared myself a satan worshipper. They think I am a wild sinner. Oh well.

The only time I attend church is when I am back home in California. Father Craig preaches at St. Francis church in Bakersfield, my home town. He is amazing. I can relate to him, he can relate to people of any age. When I was confirmed, Father Craig was around thirty years old, and every Sunday night church would be packed with teenagers and young adults grasping every word. He would tell stories and speak in a way that came straight from his heart. He never sounded angry. If I could find a Catholic church, in the South, with a young hip priest, who made me feel closer to God, I would be in church every Sunday. For now, I will just try to live my life in a way that I believe to be honest. I will be true to myself and the people I love.

Oh, and word to, I think it was Jackie, on "door to door" religion. I hate that.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

I was raised Lutheran. I haven't been to church regularly in years, though. Like mis, I got tired of being told women were subservient. In the branch of Lutheranism I was brought up in, women *still* can't be ministers because "God says so."

I also had severe problems with being told that people who didn't believe *exactly* what we believed were Bad People and were Going To Hell. I've seen more honesty and goodness in Buddhists and Hindus than I ever did in some of the people I used to go to church with.

I try to live a good life. I don't force my views on anyone and appreciate the same courtesy from others. I always liked the line from the book "The Mists of Avalon": "All the Gods are One God, and all the Goddesses are One Goddess." I don't question the way others find God.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

Yes. Yes. Christian. Yes.

Oh, I suppose I should expand a little....

Brought up Episcopalian, flirted with agnosticism and mysticism in rebellious teenage years, went back into Christianity, decided to go into Church of Christ (Cambellites) when grown, partly because of I was a little sick at some things in the Episcopal church, partly because Barb was CofC. Since every church is autonomous, I could "shop around" and find a fairly liberal one.

So I am a religious man, and that most unfashionable of religious beliefs to admit to, a Christian.

I think I have reasons for what I believe. Those interested can go to "Tealeav es and what Al Believes" to find out, I refuse to hash it out here...for which I am sure Beth is grateful. My Christianity, I believe, is more the gentle reasoning of a C.S. Lewis (the Narnia author) or a G.K. Chesterton ("Mere Christianity" and "Orthodoxy" respectively will give you a best glimpse into their thinking) rather than the rabid hatefulness and religious jingoism of a Pat Robertson (sp?) or Jerry Falwell. I'm probably more annoyed at THEM then any atheist or self-professed pagan might be.

Al of NOVA NOTES.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

I was raised an Air Force brat, so religion-wise I was raised "Protestant", since the chapels on base (at least at that time) had two religions: Protestant and Catholic. We went to Sunday School and church every Sunday, and I even sang in the children's choir (hard to believe, since I can't sing worth a damn). When I was in 6th grade, my father retired, and I've been in a church perhaps six times since then, including three weddings.

Ironically, I moved to the very heart of the Bible Belt 4 1/2 years ago, and I still don't go to church. I'm sorry, some of those Southern Baptists are just scary.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

This is what I believe:

The bible is a collection of myths containing some valid moral laws, and some far-fetched stories that I do not believe. I do not believe there is a God that watches you to see if you are obeying its rules. That was just invented by people as a way to motivate us all to obey a moral code.

I am a pantheist. That means that I believe that the universe obeys certain natural laws, which humankind may or may not understand.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

I was raised devout Roman Catholic -- we went to daily mass and recited the rosary every evening. I spent six years in the seminary/priestly formation, from 1984 to 1990, then went to law school. I really haven't been deeply involved in church since 1994, although I converted to Epicopalian when I married. My Lutheran wife couldn't stomach the guitar hymns of modern Catholicism.

I don't have spiritual beliefs right now -- I still have a lot of respect for traditional Christian insights and such, and I suspect one day I will embrace those beliefs again. Lately I've just been feeling less and less like there could be anything to all the Heaven and Hell and God-the-Creator stuff. I just feel that it's more likely that we're rational hunks of meat, evolved from inanimate matter and predestined to return to inanimate matter.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

I was raised Catholic, and it didn't take very well. I still have a great respect for the Catholic Church and the genuiely good work it does, but I don't work well inside of strict forms and rules.

I'm now an agnostic, who wobbles back and forth between theism and atheism. I've looked at other religions, but I haven't found one that works for me. Frankly, from outside, everything seems slightly 'silly' (not in a pejorative way, but in a "I can't see myself doing that/believing that" way.)

I try to keep my ears and heart open, and live a moral life, but I do seem to notice the bad parts of every religion I've come across more than I notice the good parts. Maybe because it's so much easier and noticeable to practice any religious doctrine in a hurtful way. Maybe because I'm just a cynic at heart.

I have met and talked on occasion with the "happy clappers and bible thumpers" and frankly, they scare me. There is nothing wrong being religous and happy about it, but there does seem to be a fine and confusing line about when it is appropriate to display it. I don't think while driving a city bus is, especially if you're haranging your passengers; that's just one of my more interesting and queasy- making experiences.

I suppose the best rule I've ever found, and one which I try to follow is the Great Commandment of Christianity: "Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself." It seems fairly simple and hard to misinterpret. You're supposed to love God, your neighbors, and yourself.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

I think that the community aspect of a church can be a positive thing, but too often churches seem to concentrate on the authority aspect (ex. You're a woman, so you can't be a priest, and those are the rules so that's that.)

You gotta keep in mind that religions were fluid and ever-changing to fit the times long ago. When people started writing things down, that changed things drastically. Instead of being a dynamic structure to suit the current society, most religions became static, and far removed from their original intentions. Here's a thoughtful quote that I like: "I do not pretend to be able to prove that there is no God. I equally cannot prove that Satan is a fiction. The Christian God may exist; so may the Gods of Olympus, or of ancient Egypt, or of Babylon. But no one of these hypotheses is more probable than any other: they lie outside the region of probable knowledge, and therefore there is no reason to consider any of them."

--Lord Bertrand Russell

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

i'm a wiccan. just like willow. *does a little dance*

i'm solitary but I go to big event thingies 3 or 4 times a year on the holidays. they are fun. we dance and drum and eat doritos and cake :)

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

I wish that I had strong beliefs on this subject, but I don't. I don't particularly believe in God, but then again, I don't particularly disbelieve in God.

I was raised to be Catholic, but decided at the age of 17 that the church of male priests and no birth control was not for me. Nothing replaced the gap that it left in my life. I did not latch on to any new religion; nor did I latch on to atheism.

I suppose there could be a God out there somewhere, watching us. I just can't really bring myself to care about it too much one way or the other. Since I was 17 I've been waiting for that epiphanal moment when my beliefs become clearly defined, and it hasn't happened yet.

Maybe if I were to develop some kind of terminal illness, I'd change my mind, but right now, religion is a great blank spot on the slate of my life.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

Hitler was a practicing Catholic, and considered himself Catholic until the day he died.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

Both my folks were raised Catholic. They both quit going to church after I was born, and my dad's family priest refused to baptise me because he and Mom hadn't married in church. They decided to let me choose what religion I wanted to follow, if any.

When I started expressing an interest in learning about religion, they took me to different churches. My uncle married a Jewish lady, so I knew a lot about that faith, and to this day, find it beautiful and mystical. I've visited with B'hai's, Buddhists, Wiccans, and people of many other faiths.

I think what I've done is taken what I like of different religions, and made up one of my own. I believe in reincarnation, I don't believe in Heaven and Hell. I believe in a higher power, but not in God or Satan. Sometimes I spend Passover Seder with Jewish friends, because I like the tradition. Same goes for midnight mass on Christmas Eve at the Catholic church. I like the *feel* of different religions, and I just take what I like from them, and incorporate them into my way of living.

Did any of that make sense? :) I've had several people tell me that you can't "make up" your own religion, but I think if it's what feels right to you on a spiritual level, that you most certainly can.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

So was Mother Teresa. What's your point?

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

Dave: which is doubtless why he was going to have the Bibles replaced with MEIN KAMPF, and referred to Christianity as a "superstition about a dead Jew" in private conversation with---Speer?---I'd have to look it up. He certainly took advantage of the Vatican's close ties with his ally Italy but his Catholicism was about as convincing as his word...i.e., not at all. (I believe the reference is in HITLER'S TABLE TALK....I quoted from it extensively in a religious debate echo I used to be on, but I'd have to look it up again, it's been years...but I'm sure the quote is there, in one of the books about Hitler.) Certainly Bonhoeffer (a priest who was executed and preached a sort of "tough love" version of Christianity) didn't get any favors done. Ah, I've found a site with the quotes needed...at "WAs Hitler a Christian". (This is not to deny that many believing Christians performed atrocities...Torquemada immediately leaps to mind, and although I don't agree with hardly anything he did and thought him a monster, I will concede he was a believing Christian.) It's just in this particular case, if you look at ALL the evidence, you have to admit that Hitler was merely an opportunist, who would have backed anything to further his ambitions---and dropped it just as easily if it didn't back his agenda. --Al of NOVA NOTES.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

Am I religious?

If you mean, do I follow rigorously one faith, one religion on a daily/weekly basis, then no. If you mean, do I think about the spiritual and the divine as concepts nearly every day and give thanks that I have a pretty darn good life, to whatever is out there, then yes.

Was I brought up in any particular faith?

Yes. I was baptized in the Episcopal church and Confirmed at age 12 in the same. My parents are both fairly devout Episcopalian Christians, Dad converted from Catholicism when he married Mom. Mom chose the Episcopal church when she was a teen and no longer wished to follow her father in the Baptist church. My family attended church and Sunday school almost every week when I was a child and adolescent. My parents continue to attend regularly.

What are your spiritual beliefs now?

They've been blown wide open by my experiences in life. I used to be a fairly devout little girl: I read my Bible, I knew the weekly service by heart and asked a lot of questions about God. As I've gotten older, the faith I was raised in ceased to be "enough" for me. My questions got more sophisticated and first my parents, then the priests stopped being able to answer them to my satisfaction.

Now rather than subscribe to any one faith, I follow a basic moral code that my own logic and heart have found to feel the most right to me. That code is made up of tenets from a variety of world religions, most are drawn from the tradition that I know best: the Judeo-Christian ethics, however my spirituality has also been informed by inquiry into Buddhism, Native American beliefs, Wicca and Islam.

I still "pray" or "talk to God" but the words are no longer rote, and are more often far from words -- more like directed feelings, an opening of the mind, like meditation.

I do not go to church or regular worship services.

I worship every day within my own mind, by taking time to appreciate the beauty of the world I live in, by trying every day to be a better person, to be kinder and gentler, to speak less harshly, to be less judgmental of others and think more of others than of myself.

There is a line from the film Stigmata that resonated very deeply with me, quoted from the Gospel of Thomas:

"I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

What this says to me, is that the divine is everywhere, in everything, in every one of us, hence you can worship just as well under the open sky, as you can inside the walls of church, temple or mosque.

Reaching for something greater than myself, is a state of mind ... I can work on that, just by breathing.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

Hmm, when I saw the "talk about religion" invitation I was expecting several cans of worms to be opened. Nice to see that by and large people have stayed rational about it, though. Anyway, this is my background and present situation (apologies in advance if you find this too long)

Dad's family was straightforwardly and boringly Baptist. Mum's was a bit more complicated. Her mother and one of her uncles was raised Presbyterian, but the other four uncles and aunts were raised Catholic. There's a story behind this curious turn of events but it's too long and involved to go into here.

So I was born Presbyterian and not Catholic. I was never given any sort of real religious education by the folks, a fact which Mum still occasionally laments in my presence (and probably out of it). Then as now, I only occasionally go to church on exceedingly rare and special occasions (weddings, funerals and the like). Up to the age of 12 or 13, though, I think I believed in something. Don't know what but I was a believer in something to that point. Following the death of my brother in 1987, as recounted in another forum, I seem to have lost that belief. After that, the stuff we were dished out in Scripture class seemed increasingly fake and platitudinous.

Flash forward to university. Having been a flat-out no-quarter-given atheist for a few years, I suddenly flipped back somewhat. A friend of mine turned Christian on me, and I thought there had to be something going for it if he, a bigger infidel than me, was taken in by it. So I went to this Christian study group and things were great for six weeks, I was a Christian again then I went to their Easter service and despite my best efforts I couldn't make myself believe a word of it. The negativity of the proceedings, the actually anti-human tone of the sermon, horrified me. So that was me and Christianity out of love again. Discovering Nietzsche later that year sealed the rift.

These days I tend to hover across varying degrees of agnosticism. In some of my darker reflective moments, often depending on what I'm reading at the time, I can find myself getting terribly anti-religion, particularly anti-Christianity, in theory, though mostly if it's not intruding on me and actively trying to force itself down my throat (like the Mormons or the Jehovah's Witnesses) then I've no particular practical problem with it. Don't know if I believe in God as such, but I'm pretty sure there's some higher form of existence somewhere in the universe. I dearly hope humanity isn't the best there is. On that note I'll shut up at last and apologise again for the length of this

-- Anonymous, May 11, 2000

My father was raised an Orthodox Jew, my mother a Methodist. She converted to Judaism when they married and until she became ill she was far more active in the synogauge than my father ever was.

So, I was born and raised Jewish (conservative). I love the tradition and the ceremony of it. I still hold many of the beliefs as my own. But it is incredibly difficult to be "actively involved in a Jewish community" where one doesn't exist. West Texas is not known for it's matzoh ball soup.

So, in having to go without a synogauge, I have found a greater sense of spirituality in myself, and don't know that I'd ever be an active part of one again. I find it easier to find God under a rock than in a temple (synogauge, church, etc.) The older I get the more private I become about my beliefs.

-- Anonymous, May 11, 2000

I was baptised Lutheran, raised Methodist, and became Catholic. Methodist was just a compromise between my Presbyterian step dad and Lutheran/Baptist mother. The church was really only about being a part of a social group rather than really learning anything.

I became Catholic in college. Always knew I wouldn't stay Meth. In the midst of my therapy and PTSD, I got mad several consequetive Sundays in mass and haven't been back for almost 9 months. Feel guilty, but the urge to stand up and tell the priest he had no clue about suffering was so strong I decided it best to take a break. Do attend a Catholic College and am learning a ton about religion. I'll use that to redefine my beliefs in the future. Believe there is a God, but am not sure what that defines and what that means to me and how I want to celebrate that. Have learned a lot from my next door neighbor about Eastern Religions & Philosophy, which he is very in to and I find facinating.

Don't believe in literal interpretation of the Bible, fundamentalism, or 'door knocking' religions. I think religion is something *very* personal. It saddens me to talk with some people about religion, especially my friend's fundamentalist mom, because her view of God is a mean, punishing, controlling, micromanager. She makes no decisions.... She let's "God" take care of it and I think that's complete crap.

Also, over the past year & leading up to my diagnosis (and even after) of PTSD, I was *major* resentful of people who told me to just give my problems up to God. That's a load of crap and a cop-out. I really think people don't, by in large, really EXAMINE their faithful lives properly. There are so many Puritan, Reformist, and other axioms that people repeat in the U.S. without thought - "God won't give you anything you can't handle." That's crap. There are plenty of people "God gave things" they, in fact, couldn't handle, and they thus became disillusioned, lost their soul, and/or turned to an alternative, namely drugs/alcohol/suicide/etc because the pain was too much.

I better stop now, I could go on forever.

-- Anonymous, May 11, 2000

My entire extended family, without exception, is Catholic. My parents were both raised Catholic, and so I was christened a Catholic as an infant. My mother and father, while they considered themselves Christians, were extremely disillusioned and dissatisfied with Catholicism and many of its customs (praying to the Virgin Mary and saints, the stance on birth control... all the usual suspects). We attended a non-denominational Christian church when I was a child, but left when it decided to join the Methodist sect; my parents (and I) are very much against denominational division of Christians, so didn't feel comfortable worshipping in such a church. We attended Mass very, very rarely after that, and I sometimes accompanied friends to their churches when I was in high school. I always considered myself a Christian, but only when it suited me.

Anyway, after my parents divorced and my grandmother died, a local church (which counted most of my brothers teammates and their families as members, as well as a few of my friends) sent a sympathy card, along with an invitation to attend. My Dad talked to the parents of one of my brother's friends, who were people he trusted and were members of the church, and decided he would pay a visit. I remember him saying to me, 'I don't get these people who go to church Sunday morning, Sunday night and Wednesday night for Bible study. Get in, get out and get some steaks on the grill before kickoff, people.' Long(er) story short(er), he ended up really liking the church's informal atmosphere (debate and questioning very much encouraged), and the fact that it was a fairly youthful (20s, 30s and early 40s) congregation, as well as people he already knew and with whom he felt comfortable. He ended up meeting his now-wife at a church dinner, and they only left the church last week, after my father (and several other members) decided that the pastor had developed a bit of Messiah complex, the situation made worse by the fact that he switched the church from non-denominational to Church of God without clearing it with anyone at all. This is particularly sad because my father's life has improved immeasurably since he started going there and paying more than lip service to his Christianity, and it's also a church that I found myself attending up to three times a week, because it was interesting, challenging, fun (no, seriously) and made a huge difference in my life.

When I moved to England, I didn't really look for a church because my then-boyfriend (now-husband) is an atheist and I knew I'd have to go to church by myself, which was somehow more daunting in a country where my accent gives people plenty of reason to go a little more quiet when I speak. But I recently found a really good Church of England church, and attend when the buses are running. I do volunteer work for them as well, which helps me atone for the great sin of using bad words.

Um... joke.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

Strangely, Tristan the agnostic quite enjoys going to mass with me (on the rare occasions that I go). He says he finds a strong sense of unity and community in Catholic churches that he's never found in any other denominational churches (because he's been dragged along to a few over the years).

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

The ritualistic aspect of Mass is very appealing to me, if I'm in the right mood. But I always, without fail, end up yawning my ass off in Mass, no matter how awake I was going into it. I need a church that can keep me awake and alert and involved and thinking, and not feeling as if I'm just sitting there playing follow the leader. I can't get that from Mass, though I know people who do. To each her own.

My husband won't step foot in a church. His parents -- atheists -- made him and his sister attend Sunday School because they thought it would give them a good moral backbone. It seems to have done, but I think it also gave him (though not his sister) a good dose of resentment at being made to comply with something with which he did not agree.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

I do find the ritualistic aspect soothing and quite meditative. I think the environment of Catholic churches on the whole - proper, traditional ones, not new-age ones with a guiter-playing priest up the front - mean a lot to me and my view of what a 'holy' atmosphere is. And I realise that's purely conditioning, from a lifetime of traditional mass-attendance.

In an earlier post in this thread I said how I dislike door-to-door religions. We went to visit a couple we know recently, and didn't know they were born-again Christians until about 11.30 that evening. The woman actually told Tristan that, although she thought he was a nice person, he was going to hell as far as she was concerned because he'd had the chance to find God and not accepted it (whereas anybody who hasn't had the chance to find God is exempt in her reasoning). That staggered me - would you ever tell somebody they're going to hell?

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

not a lot of Jews who read xeney, huh? I am not a spiritual person, but I couldn't really call myself anything other than Jewish. i was raised in a manner some people might call "religious" but it was more observant. Now I don't go to synagogue unless its the holidays, but I remember all the minor holidays too. its just totally something I am, like my height. Sometimes I miss having a kosher house, like my mom, and some of the rituals.

I did used to think all christians were alike (i didn't really know christians till I was about 10-11...) and could not figure out why they would have wars at all. first week of college I went to see "last temptation of christ" with a baptist who then said to me after "that's not really how it was". heh heh.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

My atrocious grammar and capitalization in the preceeding message marks me officially as "bad for the Jews". Really, I know how to write a sentence.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

No, I wouldn't tell them they were going to hell, especially if it was an unsolicited comment. If someone asked me what my interpretation of the Bible's (and Christ's) stance on non-believers' chances of getting into heaven, I would tell them that I didn't think they'd like my answer, and ask them for some reassurance that they would not hold that answer against me, or later throw it up in my face and misrepresent it as the angry words of a zealot to a 'sinner'. And even then, I wouldn't phrase it in a 'You're going to hell' kind of way. People like that really need to concern themselves with themselves and their own shortcomings, rather than going through life with the horribly misguided opinion that their rabid and damning 'witnessing' is leading the masses to Christ.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

Jackie D. - she was an adult convert to Christianity though, and in my experience they are occasionally overzealous.

Tristan just irritated her no end by saying that, as an agnostic, he didn't believe in heaven and hell anyway, but he was glad to not believe in God if that's how uncharitable he is.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

Jackie, you're right about the adult converts. I think it comes from the excitement of this new, amazing thing in your life which you feel compelled to tell everyone ALL about; this is usually encouraged by clergy. While I do think that witnessing is important, I don't think that the standard 'Let me tell you about God' approach is woefully ineffective, and an incredibly off-putting. I don't feel comfortable with talking that way at all, though, so it's something I would never even dream of doing. I think it's better to let the way you live your life speak for you, especially when it comes to people who need to knock it the hell off with the ultra-judgmental, hellfire and brimstone garbage. It irks me that the Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsens of the world are what so many people think of when they hear the word 'Christian'. Of course, those sort of self-serving egotists make better headlines than the people who don't run around condemning homosexuals or making speeches about how feminism encourages women to abandon their children and become lesbian witches (something Robertsen actually said).

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

Uh, I jumbled some of my words in the last post (no sleep for over 40 hours =/= a good idea), but I think the meaning made its way out.

And, for the record, some would consider my father and I to be adult converts; we'd both believed in Christ as our Saviour for many years, but didn't actually 'get saved' (i.e. pray at an altar to the effect that we repented our sins and accepted Christ) until adulthood. I still think it counted when it was only me in my bedroom, saying my prayers, but others would disagree. As with everything...

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

I was going to commment, but I see one of The Usual Suspects has Hitlered this discussion.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

I'm Jewish, born and raised. I go to Temple very rarely, mainly on the major holidays.

There are a couple of things I particularly like about Judaism. I love the rituals, like the Passover Seder, where the whole family gets together, year-after-year, to celebrate. And I like the fact that Judaism, at least as I practice it, is a very personal faith (like in the whole "Fiddler on the Roof" talking to God thing.).

But I don't go door-to-door or anything.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

I was a practicing Jew, until I got really good at it. Then I stopped.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

Kind of like me and tennis.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

I don't think I'm particularly religious, and I certainly wasn't brought up as anything. My parents, in an attempt not to unduly influence us, never really talked about religion, unless we brought it up first. I still don't know what my father believes. My maternal grandparents are profoundly born-again Baptist, however, so that's what I have the most experience with. I don't care for it - but I know it isn't representative of the religious experience.

I guess I'm agnostic (my mother says in a self-deprecating sort of way that agnostics don't believe in God but blame him for their problems). I think: the jury is out. It's not an answerable question, because you can't prove a negative - as long as the burden of proof is on the atheists (because requiring proof of God's existence is lacking faith and therefore bad) then nobody will come up with a definitive answer. I don't have faith, so I just muddle along.

I do think that if there is a God (or Goddess), there's a logic tree that can be applied to the consequences of belief. Either God punishes you for disbelief, or He doesn't. If He doesn't, then I'm fine with this muddling along thing. If He does punish you for such a trivial thing as not believing in Him, then I don't particularly care for Him - I mean, how childish is that? A God I could get behind wouldn't give a rat's ass whether or not people believed in Him, He'd be way too busy with important concerns.

Joanne (Parietal Pericardium)

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

I was born to a Catholic mother and a Christian father. I was adopted by Presbyterians, who raised me as an agnostic, and around the age of twelve I decided I didn't want to believe in God anymore, so I started calling myself an atheist and was damn proud of it. The idea of believing in a god who killed children (Passover) and used prophets to convert people, muchly by force, repulsed me. I decided I didn't believe in Jesus, and was disgusted with bible-thumpers. I really hated the idea of a bible club at Buljan Intermediate School when I was in the eighth grade.

My parents didn't care much. We still celebrated Easter and Christmas and all those Christian holidays. One day, right after my fifteenth birthday, I was checking out newsgroups online and mistakenly wandered into a group I thought was fantasy or something.. and it wasn't. See, magic always fascinated me. I lived for the idea of becoming the next Harry Potter (Well. Those books weren't out yet.) or getting my dog to talk to me in plain English. Stupid teenage girl fantasys, you know?

It didn't take much thought, and to my mother's horror I began calling myself Wiccan and learning whatever I could about witchcraft. I knew it wouldn't last. I'd find it too much work and then walk away, ending another religious chapter of my life. I expected it to last three months.

Of course, it didn't. I liked the philosophies and beliefs, and I recently celebrated my first year as a witch. I'm not in it for the spells or the magick, at least not anymore; it's comfortable now. And it's accepting, which is really the main reason I stay.

It's obviously not for everyone, just like any other religion, but I've found a comfy niche which echoes my pre-Pagan opinions and beliefs, and I've made friends because of it.. taken more control of my life.

Which was really cool. I don't denounce other faiths anymore; it takes much more work for them to accept me. And, it's cool to see some fellow witches out there.:)

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2000

Well if someone told me I was going to Hell for my sins I'd most likely say one of two things: 1) "If I believed that Hell existed then I'd probably agree with you" or 2) "I'll see you there, then"

-- Anonymous, May 14, 2000

I was raised Lutheran in the ELCA synod, which is sort of the wild child of Lutheranism in America. When I was in high school the church did an entire investigation on sex and had such proposals as allowing homosexual couples to get married in ELCA churches. Being Lutheran was always more of a tradition thing to me than a a religion thing. Being German Lutheran is just part of how I grew up. I'm not really religious. Religious studies is my minor, but its purely academic.

An earlier post mentioned that the lutheran church she grew up in didn't allow women to be pastors. I never understood how a religion like christianity could be so divided on so many issues. I remember growing up and asking why we didn't go to the lutheran church down the road. instead we drove half and hour into the city. My mom said, "Well they don't let women vote there."

I grew up in the texas and everyday people tried to save me in the halls at school. My mom had me coach on what to say to get them to leave me alone. Afterall, she grew up in the same area and had to fight off the same kind of kids when she was my age. I'm not even going to get into what it is like to take religious studies classes with these people. Let's just say that when you learn about avoiding cults during a dorm meeting your freshmen year, they really should include fundamental christian movements on campuses.

Last Friday's 20/20 had a good example of what the southern baptist church is doing in texas to children. (they tricked a jewish boy in to converting without even talking to his parents. then the boy had a sort of nervous breakdown.)

I believe that there is something that created everything. I lean towards the 5 blind men and an elephant theory: Five blind men are in a room around an elephant. They are all touching it and describing it. Since it is so huge and they cannot see it, they all have different perspectives of the same thing. The five blind men represent the five major religions (this does not mean smaller religions do not count) and the elephant represents universal truth. I think it's insane to claim to KNOW something that we just cannot know. period.

-- Anonymous, May 18, 2000

Mom was raised Catholic, Dad was Wesleyan, with a minister father. After getting married in my Mother's church ( Grandma said she could never go to their home again if she married elsewhere) they started sampling various denominations. Settled on Episcopalian. My Grandma used to pray for our souls because we weren't Catholic. The first time she and my Grandfather ever stepped foot into a non-Catholic church was when my oldest son was baptised. They looked like they thought God was going to strike them dead! After, my Grandfather started looking at our prayerbook, and was very surprised to find it so familliar. (= After that, they visited several other denominations, and to my knowledge, enjoyed them all. I prefer the Episcopalian church myself, though I am active in the Emmaus community which is Methodist-based.

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2000