What REALLY happens at baptism?

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1. Remission of sins Acts 2:38 2. Sins washed away Acts 22:16 3. Appeal to God for a good conscience 1 Peter 3:21 4. Cleansed Ephesians 5:26 5. Freed from sin Romans 6:6-7 6. Hearts sprinkled with blood that cleanses sin Hebrews 10:22, 10:19 7. Circumcision of Christ that cuts off sin Colossians 2:11-12 8. Baptized by one Spirit into the body of Christ 1 Corinthians 12:13 9. Baptized into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit Mt. 28:19 10.Baptized into Christ Rom. 6:3, Gal.3:27 11.Baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus Acts 8:16, 19:5 12.Baptized into Christ's death Rom. 6:3, 2 Cor. 5:17, Romans 8:1 13.Dead with Christ Rom 6:4-6 14.Old man is crucifed with Him. Romans 6:6 15.Buried with Christ Romans 6:4 16.Made alive together with Christ Colossians 2;12-13 17.Receive new life Romans 6:4 18.Made alive indeed with God. Romans 6:11 19.Raised with Christ Colossians 2:12 20.Baptism validated by the resurrection of Christ 1 Peter 3:21 21.Born again John 3:5 22.Become Abraham's see, heirs according to the promise. Gal. 3:27-29 23.Drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13, 1 John 5:7-8,vs 1 24.Put on Christ Galatians 3:27 25.Obey the form of doctrine Romans 6:17 26.Become servants of righteousness Romans 6:18 27.Become servants to God Romans 6:22 28.Handwriting of ordiances blotted out. Colossians 2:12-14 29.Saved Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21 30.Saved by washing of regeneration and nenewing of Holy Sp.Tit3:5-6 31.Save ourselves Acts 2:40

Note that most of these simply say the same thing in different ways. Not that a number of these clearly indicate they are the purpose for which it is done.

While each of these suggest additional facets, they all present the same basic idea of salvation.

It is essential to teach all that God says about baptism and baptize those who respond.

The problem is not that people do not know all the details. The problem is that people are teaching that salvation is through faith alone, apart from baptism.

-- Anonymous, May 09, 2000

Answers

FOR WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD THERE IS NO REMISSION OF SINS.

Acts 2:38:

This verse says the gift in this case will be the Holy Spirit, not salvation. "Be baptized in the 'name of Christ' for the forgiveness of sin.

This implies all that 'in the Name of Christ' means ~ His shedding of blood, death and resurrection ~ the real remission for sin. IMHO

Acts 22:16 (Read from 6 through 16).

'...by calling on His Name, wash away your sins'. Not by being baptized but by calling on His Name. [AMPLIFIED] This was several days after he started listening and obeying the Lord; (Saul/Paul). He was already a Christian by this time.

I Peter 3:21

This is a verse which people who preach baptism as a requirement for salvation should never use.

'Baptism is a figure' ~ [figurative]. You demonstrate by your baptism what is yours through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It doesn't say, "eternal salvation" here; it says saves you from inner questionings as an appeal to God for a good conscience. When it says 'not putting away filth or dirt from the flesh', it is referring to sin, which is removed by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:2:

We who were baptized into Christ were baptized INTO HIS DEATH; We were buried with Him (symbolic) by the baptism into death, so that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the father, so we might habitually live in newness of life.

Did we die? NO. Did we rise from the dead? NOT YET. This is figurative from the outset.

Hebrews 10:22;

As you say: hearts sprinkled with the blood that cleanses (Christ's blood, of course) and our bodies cleansed with pure water (v. 22: doesn't say our souls saved). V.39 ...." by faith preserve the soul".

Colossians 2:11,12;

On these verses: were we actually circumcised? NO. Were we actually buried? NO. Through what were we raised to life? Through FAITH! The baptism SYMBOLISM is death, burial, and resurrection, a FIGURE of HIS death, burial, and resurrection.

I Corinthians 12:13;

Definitely, no water here. We were baptized by one Spirit into one body (Body of Christ ~ believers). Holy Spirit baptism.

Matthew 28:19:

This is water baptism, but it's: I) Make disciples; 2) Baptize. Also it's into the 'Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit' and all that that Name means.

Romans 6:3 (Repeat of above: into His death, burial, and resurrection) ~ symbolic of the real thing ~ HIS death, burial, and resurrection).

Galatians 3:24-28: (Not good verses to prove salvation by baptism).

24: '...So that the law served [to us Jews] as our trainer ~ our guardian, our guide to Christ, to lead us ~ until Christ [came], that we might be justified (declared righteous, put in right standing with God) by and through FAITH.

25: ...

26: For in christ Jesus you are all sons of God through FAITH.

27: '...for as many [of you] as were baptized into Christ ~ into a spiritual union and communion with Christ, the Anointed One, the Messiah ~ have put on (clothed yourselves with) Christ.

28: There is [now no distinction] , neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is not male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Acts 8:16:

John's baptism. But it says; "But when they believed the good news about the Kingdom of God and the Name of Jesus Christ, the Messiah, as Philip preached it, they were baptized, both men and women..."

'when they believed; they were baptized...'

Acts 19:5 (v. 2: They believed in Jesus as the Christ); On hearing this they were baptized [again, this time] in the Name of the Lord Jesus {and all that implies} and the Holy Spirit came upon them.

Romans 6:3: (Twice above).

II Corinthians 5:17:

This one doesn't mention baptism at all. This one is about becoming a new creation in Christ if we are ingrafted into Him.

Romans 8:1:

No condemnation to those who are in Christ jesus.

Romans 8:16:

The Spirit Himself [thus] testifies together with our spirit, [assuring us] that we are children of God.

Romans 6:4-6 (Above)

Colossians 2:12,13,14:

12: '...in which you were raised to new life through your FAITH in the working of God.'

13: ...

14: All legal decrees nailed to the cross. (Amen!)

15: ...

16: (is good also) ..."Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day ~

17: Things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ".

Romans 6:4; (Your favorite passage?)

Romans 6:11 Dead to sin; alive to Christ.

Colossians 2:12: Buried; raised symbolism.

I Peter 3:21 (Repeat of above0

John 3:4-6:

4: Nicodemus said to Him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter his mother's womb again and be born?

5: Jesus answered, i assure you, except a man be born of water and (even) the Spirit, he cannot [ever] enter the Kingdom of God.

6: What is born of the flesh is flesh -- of the physical is physical; and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Definitely physical birth and spiritual birth.

Galatians 3:27-29: (24-28 above; repeat)

I Corinthians 12:13: (REpeat, above)

I John 5:1-12:

1: Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God; and whoever loves the Father loves the Child born of Him.

5: Who overcomes the world?: He who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

6: One who came by water and blood...

7: Three that bear witness, the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

{I am not positive of the meaning of these three verses}.

11: And the witness is this, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

12: He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son does not have life.

No stuttering there.

Galatians 3:27 (Repeat)

Romans 6:17 : 'Slaves of sin' ~ not about baptism.

Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in christ Jesus our Lord. (No works, not even baptism).

Colossians 2:12-14: (your SECOND favorite passage? ;-) ;-)

Mark 16:16 (vs. 9-20 not in earliest manuscripts, but the second half of this verse says: "...he who has disbelieved shall be condemned").

I Peter 3:21: (Repeat)

Titus 3:5,6:

5: He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but because of His own pity and mercy, by the cleansing (bath) of the new birth (regeneration) and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

No baptism; the washing of regeneration (being born again).

Acts 2:38-41 39: ...Repent and let each of you be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ for the gift of the Holy Spirit.

39:...

40:...

41: So then those who had received his word were baptized...

Received word; were baptized.

43: ...had all things in common; met every day in the Temple; broke bread in homes.

Respectfully submitted,



-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000


Connie,

"May God have mercy on you for lying"

You quote many scriptures IN PART and completely out of context - which is simply an example of the poor hermeneuntic you choose to use (probably haven't read any of those books I mentioned yet on that subject I suppose).

Bob, You keep right on quoting the scripture the way you did and keep preaching the need AND benefits of Baptism - there is a world that is dying because of its need to hear it.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000


I didn't type out all of the verses, because I assume people can read them for themselves, as I did.

I was just responding to each verse which Bob had listed. If I had typed everything out, I would still be typing. (On those verses).

Mark 7:6-9

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000


Hermeneutic, schmermeneutic.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

"Hermeneutic, schmermeneutic."

The spoken words of a TRUE BIBLE SCHOLAR!!!!!!!!

Boy Connie, those 2 words sure go a long way toward explaining why you associate yourself with the Gideons, why you refuse to accept simple God-commanded doctrines like Baptism for Salvation, and also the cult-like following of your Svengali, Charles Miller!

With the attitude that your words display, serious and accurate study of God's word means nothing to you! Not as long as you can make things up on your own or have those who are even Further off, tell you what to do.

"Professing to be wise, they became fools." Rom.1:22 At least you have managed to prove one scripture correct!

With this flippant attitude toward serious Bible study, if I was you (thank God I'm not) I would seriously reconsider posting anything else on this Forum as you now have shown that you have nothing serious to contribute (except discension and discord).

Bye

-- Anonymous, May 11, 2000



Mark,

I am VERY serious about Bible Study, and the words of my Lord are very precious.

I especially try to obey them.

I have no 'Svengalis', and the Holy Spirit is my Counselor.

I could be wrong, but the word 'hermeneutic' is not in Scripture and what it really is, is a system of human interpretation.

I am honoring what God says, not what man says. Charles Miller's interpretation is so much more informed than most of what I see for scholarship on this forum, there is no comparison.

There are a few who are working from the Scriptures, and of course, I might disagree with someone's conclusions, but I know I will get a serious, honest interpretation, as unbiased as it can be; I know it won't be some parroted philosophy. And it will be respectfully and humbly given, not used like a hammer to batter someone. Like Benjamin's.

I am not angry as I say this, just saddened that there are people with very little actual knowledge of what the Scriptures' main message is: The love of God, expressed in his Son's being willing to die for such sinners as we are.

-- Anonymous, May 11, 2000


"I am VERY serious about Bible Study, and the words of my Lord are very precious. "

Oh yeah, then why the snide comment "schmermeneutic"? Even the Ethiopian Eunich recognized the need for a guide to understand the Scripture he was reading. Hermeneutics is that guide - not your (or anyone else's) heart and feelings. "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?" Jer. 17:9!!

"I have no 'Svengalis'"

Then why do you quote Miller's book in the EXACT SAME WAY that a cultist (Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, etc.) quotes from their books of "superior revelations"? I believe it was Duane that pointd this out as well a few days ago. If it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, quacks like a duck, and waddles like a duck......guess what......It ain't no eagle!

"Holy Spirit is my Counselor."

Prove it! The Spirit is of the same mind as God and Jesus, right? If the Spirit is your Counselor, then how come your beliefs concerning baptism are diametrically opposed to what Jesus said and what the Apostles recorded via the leading of the Spirit. A spirit may be your counsellor, but it must not be God's Spirit.

"I could be wrong, but the word 'hermeneutic' is not in Scripture and what it really is, is a system of human interpretation."

That is correct. It is a Science based upon the writings & teachings of the Apostles, early Church Fathers, ancient historians, and others who understood the customs and languages of those times. It is a human way to determine the meaning of human words - the method God chose to reveal Himself in these Last Days. Words mean things, so we have to understand the words in their context, in order to "understand" them at all.

"I am honoring what God says, not what man says. Charles Miller's interpretation is so much more informed than most of what I see for scholarship on this forum, there is no comparison."

Of course their is No comparison - he is a false prophet! And his Hermeneutic is as bizarre as a Edgar Allan Poe story. Here is a thought to consider - the one thing that sets the Bible apart from any other writing is that it bears witness of itself. No major idea or doctrine is mentioned only once in scripture - NONE! There is always at least 1 parallel mention (and confirmation) of what has been written. So, you said in the past that Job saw a Submarine - show me the parallel passage - who else saw submarines in the Bible? Maybe it was "Captain Ahab" and his first mate Jezebel! You have said Ezekiel saw helicopters - where is the parallel mention of this? Paul said that when Jesus returns, the dead in Christ would rise first and then those left would meet them in the air - but I don't think it was to be on a Huey or Apache Gunship! (Maybe an A-10 Warthog - they're pretty cool!)

"I am not angry as I say this"

Neither am I - actually I'm having a good chuckle dealing with the basic & simple flaws in all that you present. Even Jesus had a good laugh at the Apostles' sake from time to time - it was the only way to deal with the frustration of dealing with those of hard-heads and closed-minds.

"Scriptures' main message is: The love of God, expressed in his Son's being willing to die for such sinners as we are."

Yes, but when He returns, "will the Son of Man find THE Faith upon the earth?" Not if the things you espouse are taken and taught as truth.

-- Anonymous, May 11, 2000


Merriam-Webster's Collegiate. Dictionary
Main Entry: her7me7neu7tics
Pronunciation: -tiks
Function: noun plural but singular or plural in construction
Date: 1737
: the study of the methodological principles of interpretation (as of the Bible)

-- Anonymous, May 11, 2000

Mark:

I honor God; I respect the efforts of Christians who, out of sincerely wanting to serve God, have given of their talents and abilities to preserve what God wants us to know.

I don't honor the ones who are interpreting this [interpretive]work as much as I do the ones who are doing the digging out of meaning of the earliest manuscripts.

All of these people along the way could be wrong in different ways. I sincerely believe that God has preserved the message he wants us to understand, in spite of the differences in interpretation some may have made. What I consider to be inerrant, by the way, is the message, no matter which translation, of the purpose of Christ's dyng for our sins. God wanted to reconcile us, with our rebellious spirits, to Himself, and chose a highly unusual but miraculous way to do it. I am in awe.

Satan still wants to mess up God's Plan and keeps inserting himself into the

-- Anonymous, May 11, 2000


Mark:

I honor God; I respect the efforts of Christians who, out of sincerely wanting to serve God, have given of their talents and abilities to preserve what God wants us to know.

I don't respect the ones who are interpreting this [interpretive]work as much as I do the ones who are doing the digging out of meaning of the earliest manuscripts. Like Benjamin and Charles Miller.

All of these people along the way could be wrong in different ways. I sincerely believe that God has preserved the message he wants us to understand, in spite of the differences in interpretation some may have made. What I consider to be inerrant, by the way, is the message, no matter which translation, of the purpose of Christ's dyng for our sins. God wanted to reconcile us, with our rebellious spirits, to Himself, and chose a highly unusual but miraculous way to do it. I am in awe.

Satan still wants to mess up God's Plan and keeps inserting himself into the milieu. Man's eternal salvation hangs in the balance.

May we all work continually to get out the 'Good News' which God has given us as a task. Thank you, God, that you have enabled me to hand out your word, and for enabling me to express your love to the lost of this world.

Praise His Name, and all that that means.

-- Anonymous, May 11, 2000



Dear Connie,

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2000

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