from Macbeth

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What do you do when overwhelmed by nihilism? ("pop a Prozac" is not an acceptable answer)

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To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow, Creeps in this petty pace from day to day

To the last syllable of recorded time, And all our yesterdays have lighted fools

The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle! Life 's but a walking shadow, a poor player That struts and frets his hour upon the stage And then is heard no more: it is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,

Signifying nothing.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), May 08, 2000

Answers

Lars -

It seems to me that Macbeth is anything but nihilistic in this scene. If you look at the context, he has just learned that his sleep-walking, guilt-ridden, "hand-washing" wife is dead. The "To-morrow" speech actually begins:

"She should have died hereafter;/There would have been a time for such a word."

Yet after he has talked his way through that grief and his sense that the meaning has gone out of life, he rouses himself to continue the battle. The scene ends with the words:

"Ring the alarum-bell! Blow, wind! come, wrack!/At least we'll die with harness on our back."

That's what makes Macbeth so compelling. No matter how many forces are arrayed against him, he refuses to yield. He's a tragic figure precisely because his admirable traits (courage, energy, leadership) have been turned to corrupt uses.

I've always felt that Macbeth would have whacked the head off anyone who allowed themselves to start a "pity party"...

-- DeeEmBee (macbeth1@pacbell.net), May 08, 2000.


When overcome with nihilism, I get out my favorite cooking pot and chant, "Thrice the brinded cat hath mewed, Thrice and once the hedge pig whined...." Then after throwing in an "eye of newt" and "Finger of birth-strangled babe, ditch deliver by a drab..." and "cool it with a babboon's blood..." and boil until the "cauldron bubbles," I feel a lot better.

Lars, [You] "rump-fed ronyon," "Vanity, all is vanity, a striving after wind."

Have you read Housman? "Ale man, ales the stuff to drink, for fellows whom it hurts to think. And malt does more than Milton can to justify God's ways to man."

No Prozac for this old gir either! I'll just continue to "grunt and sweat under a weary life."

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), May 08, 2000.


when in doubt, nap.

-- scorekeeper (ur@dufus.com), May 08, 2000.

This hallow shadow called truth,that I define at whims pace at night between the dark and light,feeding on it as sustinence just as my body craves a morsel of bread and a single drop of water.Truth,my truth, the hope that tomorrow will give me another chance to doubt,until I meet again another night.

-- madman (madmanloose@onthe.water), May 09, 2000.

i have this vision of Ladylogic, y2kpro and hmmm let me see..... perhaps gilda chanting...

"When shall we three meet again" "In thunder, lightning or in rain"

-- richard (richard.dale@onion.com), May 09, 2000.



Dee,

Thanks for the perspective. I'm glad to know that Macbeth was not a whiner or a quitter. Yet, to me, the quote ("tomorrow, tomorrow.........full of sound and fury, signifying nothing) is a most elegant statement of nihilism. Not blue-funkiness, not despair but flat out meaninglessness and nothingness.

I don't think I am unusual in occasionally feeling that there may actually be NOTHING beyond this small perception that we call life. I was just wondering how others deal with this notion when it strikes them. In a way, it doesn't matter. If there truly is NOTHING then NOTHING truly matters. Drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.

And except for those occasional moments of despair, I have faith that their is more than NOTHING and that there is meaning, however dimly perceived.

Gilda,

What do you think Soloman was saying? I always took it to mean that the things of this world are not the important things. He was anything but a nihilist and I believe he is right (except on those infrequent occasions when I don't believe he was right).

What's with the ronyon quote? I am a man but if I were a woman I'd be a babe, not a ronyon.

Housman? No, I never read him but my experience with malt is that it does not "justify Cod's ways to man". Yeah, gruntin' and sweatin' is what we must endure. Maybe Soloman should have said "all is struggle"

Scorekeeper'

Apparently you not the meaning of insomnia. Good for you.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), May 09, 2000.


Lars,

You know, whenever I contemplate the possibility of no life beyond this one...that's when life means the most to me, and I savor and fall in love with each and every moment that I have on this earth even more intensely than before.

I know some might find this post kind of hard to swallow, but believe me -- it comes right from my heart, and is as true as anything I could speak. My outlook only came about after some very hard times I went through, though, and wasn't always a part of me. But I feel blessed that it's a very natural part of me now, and has been for some time. And I really think we all have the capacity for this.

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), May 09, 2000.


Lars -

Well put. I have to agree that the speech itself does elegantly express the sense of "meaninglessness" which is at the core of nihilism. That's why Macbeth's later actions are so fascinating: he has admitted that there may indeed be no meaning to what happens, but he refuses to simply give up and let his enemies overtake him.

Just another example of Shakespeare's genius in creating complex, truly human characters.

-- DeeEmBee (macbeth1@pacbell.net), May 09, 2000.


Lars, I think Solomon was saying pretty much what you said. "Drink and be merry for tomorrow we die." For no matter how much faith a person has in the afterlife, or God, no one really knows for sure what will happen, or if there is an afterlife. I'm sure having faith in another life makes it easier for many though.

So if there's NOTHING beyond this life, that's ok, for this life is so interesting. That is not to say that there aren't times when I think "What is the point of it all??" Perhaps it is "...sound and fury, signifying nothing." So I usually read Ernest Becker's book, Denial of Death, which is very enlightening, and won a Pulitzer Prize.

The ronyon quote was just for fun, but I forgot the :) No offense intended. I love Shakespeare's insults, such as "puke stocking", etc.

eve, I too feel that if this is the only life there is, then that's enough for me. And I feel grateful every day for the life I have on this beautiful planet. I live in the very wonderful present, and I don't intend to waste my *now,* living for the future of *maybe."

Talking about this though, certainly puts petty grievances in the proper perspective. And to those who constantly strive for more glamorous, exciting consumer goods or status or money, I'm always reminded of the phrase, "striving after wind."

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), May 10, 2000.


Dee; nonsense:

it is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.

Just another example of Shakespeare's genius in creating complex, truly human characters.

My theory is that Shakespeare came to the present. He read some of last years posts on the "ol" TB2000 and then he wrote those lines. :o)

Just one person's theory.

Best wishes,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), May 10, 2000.



Z

Thanks for the laugh

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 10, 2000.


When I am overcome with annihalism, I usually hug the commode, take some asprin with a big glass of water and try to sleep it off.

-- (@ .), May 10, 2000.

Hi Gilda,

Nice to see you share my outlook.

So a Housman fan, eh? I like the one about the cherry tree (as it reminds me of Robert Frost, my favorite) that finishes with,

"...And since to look at things in bloom Fifty springs are little room, About the woodlands I will go To see the cherry hung with snow."

I've got the poem on four lines; I hope it doesn't run together when I submit it.

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), May 11, 2000.


Nihilism is a difficult position to remain in for long, unless one is clinically depressed at the same time. Usually, humans generate meaning as efficiently as a silk worm spins silk. Even when there is little or no raw material to work with, our minds demand meaning and when we can't find it, we make it.

There is a book that's been around since about 1960, written by a psychiatrist who survived Auschwitz. I am blanking out on the author, but the title is Man's Search for Meaning. He has some interesting things to say on the subject.

One of his essential observations was that the camp inmates who saw meaning in their lives were the only ones who survived. Another key idea is that each person's life has a meaning that is unique to that individual. What gives my life meaning is not transferable to someone else.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), May 11, 2000.


Brian:

Nihilism is a difficult position to remain in for long, unless one is clinically depressed at the same time. Usually, humans generate meaning as efficiently as a silk worm spins silk. Even when there is little or no raw material to work with, our minds demand meaning and when we can't find it, we make it.

Nihilism is the natural state, only supplanted by personal experience or cultural pressure.

Best wishes,,

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), May 11, 2000.



Brian and Z,

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), May 11, 2000.

Brian and Z,

Thanks for your interesting and conflicting comments. Brian, I think you meant Viktor Frankl's book. I read it once, years ago, and was moved. I should read it again.

I agree with you both. There is a will to survive that is inherent in any living thing. But only in humans, adult humans, is there an occasional failure of that will. Maybe I am overlooking something (beached whales?), but mature human intellectuality can demand a "meaning" that justifies life whereas for babes and for other creatures, life itself justifies itself. Humans think too damn much. Out, out, damn thought!

Z, best wishes on your travels this summer.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), May 11, 2000.


Nihilism is a difficult position to remain in for long, unless one is clinically depressed at the same time its easy ask y2kpro

-- richard (richard.dale@onion.com), May 12, 2000.

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