I found this quote in a thread by Pieter:

"Professor Snyder, a mathematician, also advocates mastering new skills; the more views of the world we have, the better we can find unexpected likenesses between things, which is at the heart of creativity."

I thought it was so good it deserved its own thread. I believe most of the world's problems are cause by people having limited views of the world. What do you think?

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 07, 2000

Answers

GOD created all things for himself,find GOD and the rest is simple. oh by the way,he came as a man=JESUS.ALL TRUTH IS FOUND ,IN HIS TEACHINGS.HE is also called=emanuel=meaning=GOD with us.

-- al-d (dogs@zianet.com), May 07, 2000.

FutureShock,
Thanks for bringing focus on our daily conversation when visiting, lurking and contributing to this forum. I often ask myself why I bother to post ideas and antipodean insights. The answer is to enlarge my world views, to see and to absorb the points of views of others without passing quick judgement; to mull over the things read here and maybe make a pitch at broadening the debates.

An example is the Americans' apparent readiness to slant the idea that guns cure all societal ills and everyone must be armed as a necessity. Their constant harping that Australians are helplessly in kow-tow to the bureaucracy is challengable. That Americans struggle to come to grips with their own problems speaks volumes. Our outside view regarding this issue alone paints a sight that's none too complimentary sometimes. Bombing Kosovo didn't help either. Dishing it out to others never wins hearts.

As the flow of media is often tainted I thank the regular forum contributors for their continued efforts to present different views. In my case I think I am a bit more tolerant of others because of its existence. This place offers quite quaint, but broad, views.

Regards from OZ

-- Pieter (zaadz@icisp.net.au), May 07, 2000.

Al-D:

So your answer is no?

God Bless you and your point of view-BUT, it illustrates the problem.

Pieter:

Thanks for the kind words, and for giving us the down under perspective every day. I am not one of those americans that feel guns solve everything. I too spend time here for the wide variety of opinions and especially for the links and book suggestions-I loved the links to volcanos that LunaC gave on a recent thread.

Peace.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 07, 2000.

Pieter,

Hate to tell you this but most Americans don't care who you kow-tow to.

-- (nemesis@awol.com), May 07, 2000.

I'd like to think I am capable of doing so; in fact, Y2K (ugh) had quite an impact on the way I view many things, people, etc. I've learned much about myself, and much about others; some of which, I must admit, I didn't necessarily need or want to know -- but I feel I'm richer for the experience.

That's one of the things I like about the Internet in general, and perhaps this forum (and others I've frequented) in particular. It's given me the chance to be exposed to a myriad of personalities and I feel like I've grown spiritually as a result. Lots of different ideas being tossed around and debated have given me insights into concepts and ideas and people that I doubt I would have had otherwise.

I also believe that much (most?) prejudice is a direct result of a lack of exposure to and subsequent understanding of different people and cultures and ideas. Growing up where I did (Brooklyn), I was exposed to so many cultures and people and I just assumed everyone had that same experience. I learned early on that it wasn't true; and just what prejudice really means. We're all biased in one form or another; that's human nature. It's only when we can recognize this, accept it and work with it that we begin to grow. Admitting a personal failing is the first step in personal growth.

I am also not one of those Americans who thinks that "guns" solves problems. Most of the people I know (most of whom are NYers) feel the same way. But that's an entirely different thread [g].

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), May 07, 2000.

How can one not be capable of changing their world view on just about a daily basis? They would have to be deeply asleep.

-- Debra (...@....), May 07, 2000.

--Debra:

Maybe we need to define what we both mean by world view. In my definaition, it is a set of conditions which become archetypal within an individual-for instance, my father hates niggers, spics, kikes-you get eh picture, and he views all news stories and other events through this rascist filter-I do not know of anything that would change his view- So, no, I do not think most people change their view every day. I think it is just the opposite.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 07, 2000.

If people call you a fence-sitter, accuse you of flip flopping on the issues, say you can't make up your mind, say you're hypocritical, or arguing for the sake of arguing, or playing devil's advocate, blah blah blah, they you're almost certainly on the right track. I distinctly recall those who demonstrated the *least* ability to learn being admired for their "consistency."

In the country of the blind, the one-eyed man won't be admired for his vision very often.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), May 07, 2000.

Hello nemesis,
Of the 260 million or so Americans I wonder how many really know where the rest of the world is.

When the NRA TV anchor person, suitably attractive for maximum visual, reported from Adelaide Parliament House about a protest by actual OZ dwellers I was curious about how many Americans cared where it was filmed. Yes, you hyped the issues you wanted hyped, even if that was an issue in error, but I feel you Americans cared little for the actual people and the place where the footage came from. The protest was about something else and the media duped Americans into believing otherwise.

Yes, I agree with you nemesis - Americans don't care because they aren't being told the truth. Please pay attention to the views of others, they have an emotion that runs deeply. Americans on earth are not alone afterall.

-- Pieter (zaadz@icisp.net.au), May 07, 2000.

Debra - How can one not be capable of changing their world view on just about a daily basis? They would have to be deeply asleep.

Sad to say, a good majority of the folks out there ARE deeply asleep! Have you ever seen the comedy bit Jay Leno does where he interviews people on the street and they can't answer even the simplest questions? Most people are only concerned with their own immediate sphere and couldn't care less about the Other Guy, current events or history. Resultingly, there is a severe lacking of understanding or empathy in the world. I think you need a bit of both to be able to change your world views.

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), May 07, 2000.

Yes, everyone is capable of changing their views, but it happens through experience, not just being told that they should. I think one of our biggest obstacles is religions. They need to do more practicing and less preaching. If God created everyone equal then why do religions encourage intolerance and segregation of those with different beliefs? Most religions are just a phony way for people to convince themselves they are doing the right thing without actually doing it.

I remember going to church every Sunday when I was a kid. We would get all cleaned up and put on dress clothes and behave ourselves. When we left church we felt like our souls had been cleaned of our sins. Then a couple hours later me and my buddies would be out fighting and throwing dirt clods at each other again.

Religion and politics are our biggest obstacles to unity. I wonder how much longer it will take before people understand that we are all of the same race... the human race, and all of the same spirit... the spirit of God.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), May 07, 2000.

Hawk and LunaC:

I am with you on this one. Most people are deeply asleep-they rely on the same things happening each day-icluding how they think about things.

Change comes, I think, when one has a desire in their heart to stop those things that are hurting them an others, and to do those things they are not doing for themself and others that they should be doing. Most people do not feel the need to change-sadly, this is a big reason why the divorce rate is so high in this country.

For me, I was tired of hurting myself and others, and my world view changed drastically about five years ago. Today, I am open to any new data which would create an archetypal change in me-hence I try to be open-minded at all times.

The writings of Krishnamurti speak often of how we do not experience true reality until we let go completely of the past and not look at the future-He states that if we are bringing the past to bear on the present, then we miss what is really happening-as what is really happening is passing through our filters, being distorted by what we think should be.

So, what I am trying to get at is this-I do not strive for a world view at all, so my original question is somewhat of a red herring; If we were all striving to have no "world view", then I believe there would be no rascism, no predjudice, no violence, etc.

I can dream, right??

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 07, 2000.

Also, I am amused that my thread regarding Coke or Pepsi has gotten significantly more play than this one. LOL : )

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 08, 2000.

This is a great thread folks!

As an introduction, I used to hang out at Yourdon's TB2000. Mostly lurked, occasionally poked my head out. This is the type of thread on which I usually jumped in.

FutureShock, this is a subject Rob Michaels would have broached. Robs posts always forced me to think. A pulse-taker, so to speak. If youre breathing & even partially conscious one just has to respond.

I echo your comments to al-d. My supervisor is an al-d clone, though not as preachy. His church states on their website that those who do not accept JC as their savior, yada-yada-yada, are SPIRITUALLY DEAD & LIVING APART FROM GOD. Let me tell you, as one who takes his relationship with God & his daily spiritual practice very seriously, well, that just plain hurts.

Hawk, bravo! You stated, Yes, everyone is capable of changing their views, but it happens through experience, not just being told that they should. Experience is the first step. IMHO, next one must be aware of the filtering process each of us uses to pigeon hole the data. Its our way. At least until clarity, enlightenment, samadhi, nirvana, etc. is achieved. One must be on alert for these filtering mechanisms  be conscious that precisely because we filter all stimuli, we just may be incorrect in our assessment of any given situation. Humility is an apt description.

I disagree that religion is to blame for your misbehavior as a child, Hawk. It is up to each of us to APPLY that which we learn to our own life. If the message doesnt click (see al-d), keep searching for the one that strikes a chord in you so deeply there is no way to dismiss it!

More to followAnd nice to meet you all!

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 08, 2000.

I don't understand what you mean by "world view", Future, but I DID broach the topic of Pornoraphy as Evil in a discussion with my SO other last night [with this thread in mind.] He didn't object to pornography [although having no interest himself], and added, "But I'm an ultra-liberal." I said, "You ARE? What about your thoughts on THESE>" I mentioned perhaps 10 different topics, and the responses led to 10 more where ultra-conservatives used the very same points in their arguments.

From where *I* sit right now, I think we need to UNDERSTAND more about WHY folks have the views they have and TOLERATE some of those views, realizing that we undergo the same rationalization processes in our OWN thinking.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 08, 2000.

Bingo:

Welcome to our little esoteric world. Glad to have you.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 08, 2000.

Bingo1, you wrote: (snip) "I disagree that religion is to blame for your misbehavior as a child, Hawk."

Obviously I can't speak for Hawk, but I'm not sure I agree with that statement in general. The one thing a child is going to want or to do is exactly what you tell that child s/he can't have or can't do. Religion is kind of a tough thing to put on a child, unless it's explained properly. My own experience was somewhat of an example of that. Growing up catholic, one of the first things they "taught" us was "we are all sinners and unless we repent we're all going to hell". Of course, they explained the damnation of hell, etc. just to complete the picture. Huh? You tell this to a six-year old? Not a good way to go about it, IMHO. Further, when I questioned things, I "got in trouble". You were supposed to take everything on blind faith and even at an early age, I questioned. Never made any sense to me because they also taught me that God gave me my brain to use it. Their practices, however, told a completely different story; something like, "God gave you a brain to use it so that you can think exactly like the rest of us". Sorry, no dice.

You then wrote: "If the message doesnt click (see al-d), keep searching for the one that strikes a chord in you so deeply there is no way to dismiss it!"

OK, I kind of agree with this because it's what I ended up doing, in a way. But isn't that kind of like "shopping for a religion that suits your needs"? (Unless I misunderstood you.) Personally, if one's intentions are good, I don't see anything wrong with that. However, if one is simply trying to "find an easy way out", well, I find alot wrong with that.

Nice to "meet you" too.

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), May 08, 2000.

Patricia,

I see what you mean re: my reaction to Hawks statement. You see, when I read religion I really see spirituality. I dont think dogma. I dont visualize hellfire nor an exclusive club. That is one of my filters.

I wasnt raised Christian, though I often fought Christian kids who seemingly carried the genetic code which made it compulsory for them to re-enact the crusades on the school playground each day. :(

I dont have kids but I dare say I wouldnt pin a religion on them. It is one thing to set an example, quite another to smother their inner fire. Im sorry you were raised in this manner. Truly.

Re: shopping for a religion that suits your needs: I recently read a very good biography on Thomas Merton. Merton converted to Catholicism while in his mid-twenties. He later entered the Trappist Order. I cant understand his attraction to Catholicism, nor the Trappists, yet he followed his heart, his NEED for daily communion with God. It doesnt matter whether I understand Catholicism. What matters is I respect his choice.

The path Im on found me. I searched, read, cried out, despaired, & then it found me. I pushed it away, but once my heart/mind/soul were exposed to the right path (for me), they couldnt let me forget it. I had no choice, really. If I wanted the pain to end I had to listen to my heart/mind/soul.

The question I ask, Patricia, is this: What are my needs? Do I need a shrimp cocktail? Does my true happiness depend on ingesting a few little crustaceans? My need was to end the pain. To know why Im here. To learn the damn ground rules! Only then could I begin the game of life. I was lucky in that it took only 25 years or so before I began to live. Of course, who knows how many incarnations went by the wayside. Alas, that is for another discussion.

If your path doesnt satisfy your needs, move on. Thats my message. Understand, I utilize introspection mercilessly, so I generally cant fool myself for very long. Im not one to flit from flower to flower. Others may not be so ruthless, opting instead to bugout when the going gets rough. I see your point.

A spiritual life is a hard life. But the rewards are joy, contentment, evolution, expansion, bliss.

Er, what was the topic of this thread? Are you capable of changing your world view? Uh, I dont know. Let me think about it.

Best,

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 08, 2000.

Thanks for the response Bingo1. That's kind of how it happened for me, but it took a lot longer. Yes, my upbringing still pokes through every now and again, but those episodes are becoming fewer and further between. I'm sure it has everything to do with being emotionally and spiritually content. It was a long ride, and I know it's not "over" yet; that, like you, I have just begun to "live". It's an amazing feeling really.

Yes, the original question was "are you capable of changing your world view?". I don't know if I really addressed it in my original answer (above), but that's the way I look at life. It works for me, and I seem to have a positive effect on those around me.

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), May 08, 2000.

Bingo:

Your post is right on. Thomas Merton is admirable-I read his book Seven Storey Mountain and was impressed. He seems to be more in the vain of the christian mystics, like St. John of the Cross, then in the vain of a mainstream catholic. Another interesting writer in the christian mythic tradition is a 20th century writer: Joel Goldsmith. I recommend his stuff highly.

I am going to repeat my point of earlier. It may have been lost at the end of one of my responses:

The world view I strive for is to have no "world view".

The spiritual path is an arduous one, but is replete with many rewards.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 08, 2000.

FutureShock,

Seven Storey Mountain was written quite early in Mertons conversion. As time wore on he found the daily grind in the monastery at Gethsemane extremely constricting. Too much ritual. Too much hardship. Gethsemane is a Trappist monastery for petes sake!. Were talking tough!

Not enough time communing with God for Mertons taste. He gradually moved away from the automaton-like existence of the monastery. He craved solitude. Eventually he was allowed to live in a small hermitage some 10 minutes walk from the monastery proper. Visitors were allowed to see him & he had many due to his popularity garnered from his writings.

Merton moved towards Eastern philosophy late in his life. Let me rephrase that  he explored Eastern philosophy with gusto. He died in Thailand while attending a conference. Read his writings on Buddhism. He understood Buddhism very well. Or better yet, he comprehended the Truth underlying all great truths. Yes FS (may I call you FS?), Thomas Merton was a mystic. Thanks for the nudge in the direction of Joel Goldsmith. Ill keep an eye out.

I didnt miss your statement: The world view I strive for is to have no "world view".  I just hadnt been able to address it  gotta do SOME work ya know. It is very Buddhist, if I may be so bold. Though Im not a Buddhist in practice, I find statements such as this one are universal. The terminology changes, but so very often the end products are the same.

Namaste,

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 08, 2000.