I've been pretty obsessed with the details of Revelation 11 and it's two witnesses. I've been gathering research about Revelation 11 for some time. My questions on this passage and topic are three-fold: 1) Do vv. 1 & 2 make a case for the rebuilding of the temple for or by the Jews? 2) What is the interpreation of verse 4, where the two witnesses are "the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth"? 3) Does the Greek allow for the two witnesses to be a man and a woman (such as a husband and wife)?

-- Anonymous, May 04, 2000

Answers

The problem is not so much the questions you ask as it is the paradigm under which you ask them.

Some have identified them as Enoch and Elijah; others have identified them as Zerubbabel and Joshua, because of the two olive trees mentioned in Zechariah 4:2-14. The most common interpretation is that they are Elijah and Moses. I think there can be no dogmatic certainty displayed here. The teaching of the verse is clear enough regardless of who the witnesses are. In the midst of persecution there still remains those who faithfully proclaim the Word of God!

Glenn Bourne said, "[The 2 Witnesses] are to be understood as the strong Christian witness, the number having a symbolic rather than a numeric value."

I think that the #2 suggests the inclusion of Jew and Gentile, the combination of God's people under the OT and those under the NT. The 2 W's are clothed in sackcloth, a mourner's garment. This is an expression of the genuine concern the church has for the lost world. (Ezekiel 18:31-32; Jonah 3:5)

What is fundamentally wrong in intrepreting these passages from Revelation with people like Connie (and her pseudo-scholar Miller) is that they make the numeric designations literal. Yet they arbitrarily decide that some numeric designations are symbolic. Go figure.

-- Anonymous, May 04, 2000

Hello, SonMan.

Ask God for wisdom and understanding, and he will give it to you without upbraiding.

The following is from Charles W. Miller's book, 'Today's Technology in Bible Prophecy', published in 1990. It took Mr. Miller 23 years to bring his material to publication, and now has an additional 10 years of study devoted to the subject.

New information, not in the book, is on his website at:

www.tip.org

All of the lessons (50) are at this site for free. It is all of the information in the book, minus helpful photographs and illustrations, and plus new info.

If one doesn't believe that the 'end-times' prophecies are for the end-times, then of course any new information is ridiculed.

The author of this material is a Computer Analyst working at the largest bank in Michigan as a Vice President in Charge of Platform Support and is a devoted Bible scholar.

TODAY'S TECHNOLOGY IN BIBLE PROPHECY

Lesson 43: A look at how the prophetic connection between John's two candlesticks and Zechariah's two olive trees imagery defines the final mission of the "two sons of fresh oil."

I A recap of the major outcomes of the Sixth Trumpet War.

1 And was given to me a reed like to a staff, saying: Rise and measure the shrine of God and the altar and the (ones) worshipping in it. 2 And the outside court of the shrine cast out outside and thou mayest measure it not, because it was given to the nations, and the holy city they will trample forty and two months (Rev. 11:1-2, IGENT).

A The symbolic order to cast the "outside court"--the visible outward trappings of Christianity such as church buildings, schools, colleges, etc.,--"out outside, because it was given to the nations," states that all of Christendom's financial assets will be given to the nations after the Sixth Trumpet War.

1 The text teaches that the world's established religious organizations will willingly hand over the sum of their assets to the coming new international religious order.

2 This action will mark the beginning of a globally organized war against Christians.

B Also, the holy city of Jerusalem will come under the control of the nations for forty-two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophecy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth (Rev. 11:3).

A In response to these gains made by Satan's forces, the Captain of the Lord's host "will give power unto His two witnesses, and they shall prophecy a thousand two hundred and threescore days."

B The use of forty-two months and 1,260 days here indicates that 42 months, 1,260 days and a time and times and half a time, all refer to the same three-and- one-half year period of time--the time when the Fourth Beast will rule the world.

II The connection between the two olive trees and the two sons of fresh oil explained.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth (Rev. 11:4).

A In Zechariah's prophecy, the "two olive trees," one on each side of a candlestick with seven lamps thereon, represent the two "anointed ones" (literally, "the sons of fresh oil") teaching God's space-age prophecies to Christ's earthly Church during the days leading up to the outbreak of AWWI.

B What does the definite statement "these are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth," reveal about the two witnesses' mission?

1 It declares that the same two "anointed ones" will not only fulfill the mission symbolically defined in Zechariah's two olive trees prophecy, but also the mission defined by the two candlestick's imagery.

2 The two candlesticks symbolize the decidedly different mission assignment they will be engaged in during the Fourth Beast's three-and-one-half year reign of terror.

C What does the Revelation's opening picture of Christ walking among seven candlesticks reveal about the nature of the two witnesses second mission assignment?

1 According to that introduction, the seven candle- sticks represent Christ's entire earthly Church.

2 Substitution of candlesticks for olive trees to represent the two witnesses, immediately after the reference to Jerusalem being placed under the control of the nations for 42 months, provides the following insight into the witnesses' second mission assignment.

a Since 42 months is the same time period assigned for the duration of the Fourth Beast (Rev. 13:5), it follows that once the Fourth Beast succeeds in snuffing out the light going forth from Christ's long-established churches, the two witnesses will assume the leadership role left in the wake of the Church being driven underground.

b During those violent days, the only visible light remaining intact from the "seven churches" will be going out through the Captain's two witnessing candlesticks.

c Thus, upon the establishment of the world govern- ment, the two witnesses will spend their remaining three-and-one-half years leading the Christian movement to evangelize the world, despite the Fourth Beast's determined effort to stop them.

d Note further that since the two "anointed ones" will be preaching during the Fourth Beast's reign of terror, the space-age will close within the life-span of these two witnesses.

D Why will the two witnesses wear sackcloth--a coarse cloth used for making sacks and rough garments in Bible days, commonly made from camel or goat hair?

1 They may wear these traditional mourning clothes as an expression of grief over the atomic disaster.

2 More practical reasons might be to keep radioactive fallout off their skin and for protection against the dramatic increase in ultraviolet radiation expected in the wake of a global atomic war.

E What biblical reasons can be given for the assignment of two witnesses to this prophetic end time mission?

1 According to established Mosaic judicial procedure-- the witness of two is true.

6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death, but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death (Deut. 17:6).

2 God, being just, does not condemn any man to death on the word of one witness.

3 During extraordinary times in Israel's past, God sent men in pairs to warn people of impending judgments.

4 Examples include: Moses and Aaron, Caleb and Joshua, Ezekiel and Daniel, Zerubbabel and Joshua.

F The two witnesses will carry out their final mission during the most extraordinary times ever witnessed by man.

G The two witnesses will exhort all men to repent and turn to Christ.

H They will use God's explicit space-age prophecies to prove God's existence and good intentions toward all men.

III The enemies of the two witnesses will be devoured by fire.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed (Rev. 11:5).

A Why will the world government be diametrically opposed to the witnesses' space-age prophetic message?

1 Predictably, those supporting the international government will find the witnesses' message against the evils of the capital city inflammatory and disruptive.

2 The witnesses' general call for men to turn to Christ and separate themselves from the international government's religious movement will also be viewed as an act of treason.

B According to this text and the Fourth Beast's declara- tion of "war with the saints" (Rev. 13:7), there will be a determined effort, not only to silence the two witnesses' testimony, but also to "hurt them."

C The witnesses' response to this offensive against them, described as "fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies," raises the question as to whether it should be interpreted in a figurative or literal sense?

1 Similar language used in Jeremiah's prophecy fore- telling the fall of Jerusalem at the hands of the Babylonians, provides one possible parallel text.

14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them (Jer. 5:14).

a The prophetic words from Jeremiah's mouth came to pass when the Babylonians burned Jerusalem to the ground and carried those remaining alive back to Babylon as slaves.

b If a symbolic meaning of "fire" is intended in Rev. 11:5, it would find fulfillment when the witnesses' enemies eventually meet their death at the hands of the post-AWWI plagues and Second Atomic War, both of which are prophetically spelled out in the rest of the Revelation.

2 On the other hand, if the immediate death of the witnesses' enemies by literal fire is the intended meaning of the text, parallel passages exist for this also.

3 In a confrontation between King Ahaziah of Samaria and Elijah the prophet, literal fire settled the matter.

9 Then the king sent unto him a captain of fifty with his fifty. And he went up to him: and, behold, he sat on the top of an hill. And he spake unto him, Thou man of God, the king hath said, Come down. 10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty (II KIN. 1:9-10).

a Thus, when Elijah was personally threatened in his day, God literally killed Elijah's enemies with fire.

b God's intervention not only kept Elijah's enemies from harming him, but more importantly, it removed all doubt concerning his commission as a prophet of God.

4 The two witnesses will be up against the same all-out opposition that Elijah faced in his day.

5 In fact, according to Rev. 11:7, the Fourth Beast will finally succeed in killing them, after waging war against the two witnesses for 1,260 days.

6 What interesting point does this additional information raise?

a Since "the two candlesticks" represent the two witnesses openly assuming the leadership role left after the church has been driven underground, destruction of the two witnesses' enemies by "fire" provides a plausible explanation for their survival.

b Otherwise how could the two openly preach for 1,260 days against the evils of a powerful world government determined to silence them?

c Note also that the second half of Revelation 11:5 confirms the manner in which their enemies will be killed.

d That is, "if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed" repeats what was previously said and redirects the cause of death back to the initial description--by "fire."

IV What is wrong with the position held by many of the early Church, that Enoch and Elijah will appear again as the two witnesses, and a later alternate opinion that they will be Moses and Elijah?

A The answer is found in Abraham's reply to the rich man in hell who asked Abraham to send Lazarus to warn his five brothers to repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead (Luke 16:31).

B This story, told by Christ, clearly teaches that the two witnesses will not return from some previous time, but will be members of the Sebat generation.

As in the rest of Scripture, some things are literal and some things are figurative.

Respectfully submitted,

-- Anonymous, May 04, 2000

The last sentence and closure are mine:

As in the rest of Scripture, some things are literal and some things are figurative.

Respectfully submitted,

-- Anonymous, May 04, 2000

Connie...

I would be extremely interested in hearing your explanation of how you determine when a number is to be considered symbolic and when it is to be considered literal...or is your explanation as simple as this - when Miller says it's symbolic...it's symbolic and when he says it's literal...it's literal.

Will your response to me be a large section of cut and paste of his thoughts on this and not yours?

Either way I am interested in hearing your guidelines for determining when and why a number in the book of Revelation should be symbolic or literal...let me know YOUR thoughts on this matter please.

Because in your last post you said "some things are literal and some things are figurative." I don't necessarily disagree but how do we know when this is true? Please explain your hermeneutic process for determining this.

-- Anonymous, May 04, 2000

How about the Bible and the Church being the witness's?

(Mat 24:14 KJV) "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

(John 1:7 KJV) "The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe."

(John 1:8 KJV) "He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light."

(John 5:36 KJV) "But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me."

(John 5:37 KJV) "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."

(James 5:3 KJV) "Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days."

(Rev 20:4 KJV) "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

IMO, we don't have to be looking for anything extraordinary. We have the Word of God and the Church of God.

According to the Bible it takes only two to convict.

Parables and analogies are used in the Bible for the purpose of concealing Gods plan from the enemy...(Luke 8:10 KJV) "And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand."

Want to see the Enemy? Study the history of USURY! If you want to see what persecution is like, preach against the evils of USURY...PUBLICLY.

-- Anonymous, May 05, 2000

Mark, you seem to believe that the two witnesses are symbolic. What brought you toward this conclusion? Apparently, you see Revelation 11 as parabolic or allegorical. What reasons do you have for that? Within the context of the entire Revelation 11 passage, you don't hear anything about the Word of God or His church. If it is true that the Bible and the Church are the two witnesses, then I want that logic applied to the entire passage. Explain the breath of fire within this context. Explain their prophesies. Explain their plagues they released. Explain their deaths and resurrection. Explain the rejoicing of the nations at their death. Explain them as the second woe. Plus, what study have you put into this?

Connie, I appreciate the Miller outline, but what is he to me? Do you really think that I would be a good steward of my mind if I just quote what another man says about Scripture and not provide an interpretation or criticism of his opinions? I also don't understand how the same Revelation 11 passage can be literal (Miller states their are two actual witnesses) and figurative (the court given to the nations is the transfer of godly wealth to the wicked). How can you make such stark differences all within the same text? Plus, I must concur with Michael when he quotes you as saying, "Some things are literal and some things are figurative." If that's true, then YOU show ME in this passage. Don't copy and paste someone else's ideas.

Michael, don't argue with Connie. Let her say what she likes. I'm the one searching for answers, not opportunities for people to disagree. I'd like you to answer the three-fold question at hand. Don't make my pursuit of truth to be a weapon of division. I would like to know how we hermeneutically study Revelation 11 and then proceed to its explaination.

Peace!

SonMan

-- Anonymous, May 05, 2000

SonMan, the problem I have with a symbolic interpretation with Revelation is that, we interpret majority of the NT as literal teaching, but when it comes to Revelation- it cannot be interpreted this way so obviously it is a "code book for the first century". Michael is quick to denounce Connie for her lack of thoughts on the issue citing Millers comments but he does the same citing Glen Bourne's interpretation. The historical view on Revelation is no more valid than the futuristic view.

But, one thing I would like to comment on is the fact, that it IS a real possibility that much of what is happening today- is foretold in Revelation and Daniel- some of which cannot be denied. I personally beleive (and see it context) that the two witnesses, whoever they are or like, are literal men.

-- Anonymous, May 05, 2000

SonMan and Michael:

Yes, I have come to the conclusion that I am going to have to put in the 30 years' work to prove the prophecies myself. Since I am 66, that will be the rest of my life. (My mother died a year ago, just before turning 97, so i suppose i could live as long ~ though I hope not; I want to see Jesus before then).

All of us, you both included, are stating our opinions based on the opinions of people whose work we've studied. I want to discover the truth. Charles Miller's work is based on thirty-three years' intensive study of the prophetic Scriptures.

I think that as Christians, we should respect and discuss ~ without personalities becoming involved ~ whatever we have learned. I definitely do not have the information and training Charles Miller has, and neither do the two of you.

In SonMan's case, he seems to be sincerely seeking the truth, and I thought he might consider what I copied and pasted to be relative to what he was asking.

More and more, as time goes on and prophecy is being fulfilled, people will be discussing and wondering what God has planned. He tells us a lot of what He has planned in His Word.

Our jobs are to find that out.

Demeaning each other is unbecoming conduct for Christians. Just tell me what your ideas are (with Scriptural references) concerning these prophecies.

I realize that there are two assignments you have given me, and I will take the time to answer those.

I have only been interested in this topic for one year (except for when I was a new Christian and end-times prophecies first came into my awareness [partly because of the return of all of Jerusalem to the Jews as promised to them by God]). In the intervening years, Christians (including me) have been asleep to what is coming about, but with vague feelings that SOMETHING is.

God WANTS us to know! He wouldn't have written these words if He didn't! I am not saying Charles is without error ~ he's human. I haven't found anything which disagrees with Scripture in his material, however.

He's willing to discuss with anyone his positions.

Respectfully submitted,

-- Anonymous, May 05, 2000

Michael and SonMan;

The way I determine whether a passage is figurative or literal is partly from the context; my hermeneutic will probably be different than yours; I didn't sit under Glenn Bourne (and I'm sort of glad for that).

I want to know what God intends for me to know, but I hope and pray that when I've come to some conclusions that I won't be able to change my mind if new information becomes available. Not new from the standpoint of being newly stated, but from the standpoint of being newly discovered ~ by me.

All of us need to acknowledge that we don't have all of the information concerning the end times, because all of it has not yet been revealed.

It is an interesting and vital subject for ALL Christians, and we will need the information as time goes on, to a much greater degree than we have so far.

I see no harm in discussing all aspects of it.

I personally am looking for Charles' opinion on the next major prophecy's coming about: that Israel will extend her borders.

There is new fighting there as of yesterday. Israel has agreed to give up land taken in the Six-Day War, but if she does so, another war will have to be waged to take it back, because God promised this to her. In fact additional land in Lebanon and Syria will also come under Israel's control.

Also, Mark H.:

I don't know what all of your position on Israel and Judaism is, but is it a problem that Jesus was a Jew to you? I guess the reason I DO consider that my faith is Judeo-Christian is because I have been grafted in to the original Judaism, and I accept the Old Testament to be Scripture (fulfilled in Christ).

I am not criticizing you; I really want to know.

Thanks.

Respectfully submitted,

-- Anonymous, May 05, 2000

From my closure of an earlier post on another thread:

Presently, Israel is having water shipped by tanker because her supply is so short.

Something to ponder.

Respectfully,

-- Anonymous, May 06, 2000

I personally am looking for Charles' opinion on the next major prophecy's coming about: that Israel will extend her borders.

There is new fighting there as of yesterday. Israel has agreed to give up land taken in the Six-Day War, but if she does so, another war will have to be waged to take it back, because God promised this to her. In fact additional land in Lebanon and Syria will also come under Israel's control.

Add Jordan to the area of extended borders.

Respectfully,

-- Anonymous, May 06, 2000

The following e-mail from the author of the book I've been sharing with all of you:

Hi Connie,

In my view Rev. 11:1&2 are figurative--see Chapter 12 p. 87 of my book for details, and I don't see these verses supporting the rebuilding of the temple. Verse 4 defines a reassignment of the two witnesses' main mission, directly after the Sixth Trumpet World War. Verse 4 also draws attention to the fact that the two witnesses will be presenting the end-time prophecies before the seven trumpet events and the great tribulation begins, by stating that they are the two olive trees introduced in Zechariah chapter 4. Zechariah's introduction of the two witnesses as olive trees, before he introduces the world's first atomic war in chapter 6, shows the two witnesses will be present before the atomic war and the great tribulation begins, and they will also be present at the time the world government is established after the Sixth Trumpet World War. Since the world government will only last 3 1/2 years, it is clear the two witnesses will be present through the entire end-time period, which, in turn, verifies that the end-time period takes place within the life span of one generation.

In my opinion the Greek allows for the two witnesses to be two men, a man and a woman, or two women. The fact that they are killed and their bodies lie in the street of the great city for 3 and 1/2 days indicates they are two people.

The question Michael Demastus asks: "How do we know if something in prophecy is literal or figurative," is a fair question. We are instructed to "study" and "rightly divide the word or truth." This means we have to determine literal from figurative by taking into consideration the context of a prophetic passage and the greater context of all the end-time prophetic body of Scripture. In the final analysis the person whose interpretation does not come to pass, will be proven incorrect, and the person whose interpretation does come to pass, will be proven correct. (Certainly the prophecy experts who said a generation is forty years and that Christ would return forty years after Israel was re-established as a nation, have been proven incorrect.) Since many of the end-time prophecies have not come to pass yet, people will continue to debate these issues until the prophecies do come to pass.

Chuck **********************************************************************

By the way: I (Connie) will repeat my offer made earlier on another thread:

I will send a free book to anyone who wants one.

Just e-mail me your address.

Respectfully and prayerfully submitted,

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2000

For those of you who already have the book, the first sentence should read: '....see Chapter 12, page 287...', not page '87'.

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2000

I found the following at another Christian site, so charles is not the only one to say these things about Israel's borders being enlarged:

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

Israel - Boundaries Return to Home Page http://www.learnbible.net/topical/

Exodous 23:31 And I will set thy bounds from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee.

Numbers 34:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Command the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land of Canaan; (this is the land that shall fall unto you for an inheritance, even the land of Canaan with the coasts thereof:) 3 Then your south quarter shall be from the wilderness of Zin along by the coast of Edom, and your south border shall be the outmost coast of the salt sea eastward: 4 And your border shall turn from the south to the ascent of Akrabbim, and pass on to Zin: and the going forth thereof shall be from the south to Kadeshbarnea, and shall go on to Hazaraddar, and pass on to Azmon: 5 And the border shall fetch a compass from Azmon unto the river of Egypt, and the goings out of it shall be at the sea. 6 And as for the western border, ye shall even have the great sea for a border: this shall be your west border. 7 And this shall be your north border: from the great sea ye shall point out for you mount Hor: 8 From mount Hor ye shall point out your border unto the entrance of Hamath; and the goings forth of the border shall be to Zedad: 9 And the border shall go on to Ziphron, and the goings out of it shall be at Hazarenan: this shall be your north border. 10 And ye shall point out your east border from Hazarenan to Shepham: 11 And the coast shall go down from Shepham to Riblah, on the east side of Ain; and the border shall descend, and shall reach unto the side of the sea of Chinnereth eastward: 12 And the border shall go down to Jordan, and the goings out of it shall be at the salt sea: this shall be your land with the coasts thereof round about.

Joshua 1:4 From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast.

Ezekiel 47:15 And this shall be the border of the land toward the north side, from the great sea, the way of Hethlon, as men go to Zedad; 16 Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim, which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath; Hazarhatticon, which is by the coast of Hauran. 17 And the border from the sea shall be Hazarenan, the border of Damascus, and the north northward, and the border of Hamath. And this is the north side. 18 And the east side ye shall measure from Hauran, and from Damascus, and from Gilead, and from the land of Israel by Jordan, from the border unto the east sea. And this is the east side. 19 And the south side southward, from Tamar even to the waters of strife in Kadesh, the river to the great sea. And this is the south side southward. 20 The west side also shall be the great sea from the border, till a man come over against Hamath. This is the west side. 

Hm-m-m-m.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

SonMan:

The following is even better:

Website of Jan Kapteyn (Captain)

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Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any one hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me Psalm 23:5 Thou dost prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; Thou dost anoint my head with oil; My cup overfows I opened the door, and now I welcome you, to share my table.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I am a retired Computer Product Support Engineer (systems) My main interests are: Bible study in the Original Languages. Study of, the Hebrew language, the Jewish roots of Christianity, the pagan influence on the Church, the original Hebrew/Aramaic background of the NT and also computer programming.

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When you would like to find out more about me, make a choice of language

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If you would like to, you can select from my own personal Bible study, articles for reading or copying:

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This brings you to a page with many links to sites that are related to the topics on my pages or that might be interesting to visit. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

Free Hebrew and Greek fonts available H;y-Wl*l;h ~iyowG-l\K hwhy-t,a W]l.l;h

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When you have a question or a problem related to the Bible, I will endeavor to answer you. Or when you just want to say Hello or Shalom or have some remarks, you can reach me by:

Have a Good morning Use button to select article. Only 'on line'. Use them 'off line', when you have copied all articles to the same directory on your system, including the script file: buttons.js.

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Ik wens u een goede morgen gebruik toetsen om artikel te selecteren Gebruik alleen online, of offline als alle artikels gecopieerd zijn in de zelfde directory, en ook de file: dbuttons.js

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Last updated 05/10/00 20:23:48 ********************************************************************** Hope you can appreciate this.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2000

Oh, too bad.

None of the illustrations loaded. This is a great site, though, for Bible knowledge.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2000

The author of the above is in the Netherlands.

His e-mail:

-----Original Message----- From: Connie Iversen To: j.kapteyn@worldonline.nl Date: Saturday, May 13, 2000 8:34 AM Subject: RE: YourStudy

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2000

I'm going to try again:

Good morning Welcome to my study about the land Israel <*><*><*>

The land Israel To whom does it belong? The land is Mine says Yahweh And the land shall not be sold permanently because Mine is the land because you are aliens and sojourners with me Leviticus 25:23 (unless specified, texts are my translations from the Biblia Hebraica) This land is Israel and the following Scriptures repeats Yahweh , "the Land is mine": Jeremiah 2:7 & 16:18 Ezekiel 38:16 and Joel 1:6 To whom is the land given? We could say in short: "To the nation Israel" However let us follow this up from Scripture. The Most High by dividing the land for a possession to the nations by separating the humans fixed the boundaries of the people to the number of the children of Israel Deut. 32:8 We read in Deuteronomy Chapter 31 how Yahweh foresees the behavior of the nation Israel and in Deut. 31:19 we see that Yahweh teaches them a song. This song is recorded in Deut.32:1-43. Unfortunately the beauty of this old Hebrew poetry is not really understood anymore. However the Hebrew text still brings a clear message, which is a bit obscured in our translations. In this song, Yahweh shows us who He is and what His actions and reactions are regarding, the behavior of Israel and the behavior of the nations with regard to Israel This song still has a clear message for our time. The following Scripture sort of compliments this song. And I will gather all the nations, And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat. Then I will enter into judgment with them there. On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel. Whom they have scattered among the nations; And they have divided up My land Joel 3:2 (NASB) This is the judgment, Yeshua the Messiah talks about in Matthew 25:31-46. When Yeshua says: "These brothers of Mine," He is talking about His fellow Jews, Israelites. At that time, it was still not disclosed that people from the Gentiles also could become His brothers. How did this all come about? From Genesis 3:15, we can learn that Yahweh would cause someone, of the seed of the first woman, to take care of Satan. Having destroyed the Earth once with a flood, because of the wickedness of mankind, Yahweh had promised not to do this again. However, the wickedness that resulted from leaving Yahweh and adhering to other gods, started again. Excavations have shown us that from Nimrod onward, many false gods were followed. These gods allowed everything that was an abomination to the Creator. Yahweh therefore decided that He would continue His dealings through a special nation. This nation had the task of clearing a piece of land, from people who were defiling Yahweh's creation and who did inhabit that land. The nation Israel was to keep the land free of idolatry and serve only Yahweh. From this nation would be born the Messiah who would brake the hold of Satan on this world. The nation Israel was to keep the land free of idolatry and serve only Yahweh.

Yahweh made this first known to a special person in history by the name of Abram. The Bible shows us that the line from the first woman, ran from Seth via Noah and Sem to Abram. The Jewish literature has many stories about Abram and his family. However, I just look at the Bible and the historical evidence from excavations, to make up my own story. I do not present this as being the way it happened, but as the way in which it most likely happened.

From excavations, in what once was called "Canaan", we learn that from Sem's descendants a Semitic dynasty of Elba existed. This dynasty reigned in Canaan and Syria. It had six successive kings. However the third one, who reigned somewhere between 2400 and 2250 BCE, was the greatest. His name was Eber. The Bible gives us the genealogy from Noah to Abram in Genesis Chapter 10 and 11 The Bible usually only mentions Chiefs and Rulers in genealogies. I therefore, believe that the Eber of the Elba Dynasty is the Eber of Gen. 10 and 11 and the date of his reign fits the Biblical time table. Round about 2300BCE Semitic nomads, headed by tribal chiefs, began to infiltrate Mesopotamia. One of them, a great grandson of Eber, was Serug. He settled in what was later called "Padan-Aram" and started a city that was named after him. Bible fragments such as, Joshua 24:2, Gen.31:30-35 and also excavations in Mesopotamia, reveal to us that these Semites also served other gods. Either Serug's son Nahor or his grandson Terah moved further down the Euphrates. We find that around 2200 BCE, Terah was living in Ur, where his son Abram was born. In that time, King Urnammu started to reign in Ur. From excavated tablets, we learn that he was trying to get rid of other minor kings. Terah was a Tribal chief and a minor king. That was probably, why he decided to move away from Ur. Urnammu would not accept his presence. According to Gen.11:31, he planned to go to Canaan. The name Canaan was sometimes used for all of western Syria (Egyptian writings). When he traveled along the river Euphrates and past the town Mari, he came among his family. His grandfather Serug had settled there before. Probably because of this he decided to settle there. He either called it Haran after his Son or the the city was already named after an earlier member of his ancestry, who is not named in the Bible. From clay tablets, dated around 1800 BCE, which were excavated at Mari, we learn that the cities of Haran and Nachor were well known. We read in the Bible that Abram was ordered by Yahweh to leave His family and to go to an other land. We do not know when it was given, neither do we know how or why, Abram came to know Yahweh. In those times, it was customary that everyone stayed with the tribe, till the Tribal chief died. On his dead, one would take over as chief and the others were free to start their own clan. When Terah died, Abram was free to go. We read in Gen.12:1 that Yahweh "said" something to Abram. The imperfect mode of the Hebrew "amer" (said) indicates it was said at some time, but what is said is still active, till it is accomplished. And said Yahweh to Abram go for yourself from your country and from your kindred and from your fathers house up to the land which you will be shown. You will be made in to a great nation. And you be blessed. And be made great your name. And be a blessing. And blessed which bless you. And the one treating you with contempt cursed be he. And are blessed in you all the families of the earth. Gen. 12:1-3. Abram and his entourage traveled to the land were the descendants of Ham's son Canaan, the Canaanites were living. These people, were living concentrated in towns where they, in a highly developed civilization, worshiped false gods. They were very decadent and that is why Yahweh removed them from His land and gave it to His People. And appeared Yahweh upon Abram and said to your descendants I shall give the land this one. Gen. 12:7a Here we have the first promise of the land to Abram's descendants, while he was at Shechem. Later, when Abram was again between Bethel and Ai, Yahweh spoke again to him. And Yahweh said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him, now use your eyes and see from the place which you are in, northward and southward and eastward and westward. because all the land that you see to you I shall give and to your descendants for all times.Gen.13:14-15 Stand up and walk on the land through its length and through its breadth because to you I shall give it.Gen.13:17 In Genesis Chapter 15 we read again that Yahweh promises the Land to Abram and He made a covenant in the manner that covenants between rulers were made in those days. Genesis Chapter 15 Gen. 15:7-18 Note the following: On that day Yahweh cut a covenant with Abram saying: "To your descendants I have given this land. From the river Egypt up to the great river river-perath (Euphrates)" Gen.15:18 This is a real big piece of real estate and far beyond the present Israeli territory. Since Yahweh cannot break this covenant, one day this whole area will belong to Israel .Since Yahweh cannot break this covenant In Genesis Chapter 17 we read that Yahweh changes the name Abram to Abraham and in Gen.17:8 the land promise is repeated. Genesis Chapter 17 Abram Abraham Gen.17:8 We should notice that in 17:8 Yahweh says: "the land of your sojournings." Now if we look at Gen.21:34 we read: "And Abraham sojourned in the land of the Philistines for many days" YES! the "Gaza" has been promised to Israel as well. We read that the land was promised to Abram's descendants. Abraham had many descendants and many claim therefore the right to this land. However the Bible gets more specific about the descendants. But God said, "No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this season next year.Gen.17:19-21(NASB) Then the Bible tells us about the next descendant, Jacob to whom Yahweh appears. And there Yahweh took stand over him and said I am Yahweh God of Abraham your father and God of Isaac the land the which lying upon you are to you I shall give and to your descendants.Gen.28:13 We read in Gen.32:28 that Yahweh gives a new name to Jacob. This is a very significant event in Yahweh's plan and worth to pay attention too. The nation coming forth from Jacob shall carry this new name. A name was in the olden days, more than now, a description of an object's qualifications and characteristics. That goes specifically for Biblical names. The nation coming forth from Jacob shall carry this new name.

To find out why Jacob's name had to be changed, and why it was changed to Israel, we do have to examine the name Jacob. We have to take in to consideration that there is much word and word sound play, in the Hebrew of the Tanach. Gen.25:26 tells us, he was given the name Jacob because he held on to the heel of his brother Esau. The Hebrew for Jacob is, Ya'aqov. There are three related words to this name. The first is aqev, meaning heel or footstep. Related to this word are, aqav, meaning, taking someone's place, and aqov, meaning, deceptive. When we read in the Bible about Jacob, we find that ya'aqov describes his character. The name says he is someone that took someone's place (took his footsteps), by trickery (deception). To make Jacob ready for the task and responsibility of becoming a nation, his character and therefore his name had to change. The character transformation happened over time, but was culminated in the wrestling with Yahweh as it is written in Gen.32:24-32. After his character was changed, his name had to be changed, in a name that would describe Yahweh's purpose with him and his descendants. Yahweh uses a play on words in Gen.32:29 . He uses the word, Yakowl. This means, power to prevail. Jacob had struggled with Elohiem and men and had overcome. For the word striven the Hebrew use a form of the word sarah, which means, fight without giving in. To accomplish sarah, yakowl is needed. Jacob's new name becomes a compound of El and sarah, it becomes YE (shall) SARAH (fight and win) El, compounded as jisrael. Israel means therefore: "Elohiem strives and shall prevail."

<*><*><*><*><*><*> It is Israel the nation, which shall inherit all the land. Moses My servant is dead; now therefore arise, cross this Jordan, you and all this people, to the land which I am giving to them, to the sons of Israel. Joshua 1:2 (NASB) The nation Israel was to occupy the land and with the help of Yahweh to destroy the wicked nations, Deut. 18:9-14. The reasons for this, were that Yahweh was going to use the nation Israel to bring forth the Messiah (deliverer). Yahweh uses only one spot on this Earth to accomplish all that He set out to do. That spot happens to be the land Israel and centered on Jerusalem. This being His chosen spot, other people who committed atrocities were not to occupy this Holy land. The nation Israel had to be a nation that revered Yahweh and be a light to other nations and be worthy to occupy this holy land. Joshua warns them in, Joshua Chapter 23 about what shall happen if they fail. We can read in the Bible that they failed time and again. However, the nation and the land is called Israel and this name means that Yahweh will accomplish what He set out to do. We can read about this in Ezekiel 20:1-44 and 36:1-38. And say to them; so says Adonai Yahweh see I take the children Israel from between the nations where they went and I gather them from every side and I shall cause to come them upon their land Eze.37:21 We know that Yahweh keeps His word and covenant, because in our days, we can see this happening before our own eyes. In Ezek. 39:25-29, we read again about the restoration of Israel and we know that it is an ongoing process in our days, because Yahweh has not yet poured out His spirit on the house Israel. If this had already happened, there would have been no more internal division and the giving away of Yahweh's land. There are people in Israel who have received this spirit, however they are a small minority to whom nobody (yet) listens. And I shall establish them upon their land and not to be plucked out again from upon their land that which I have given to them says Yahweh your God. Amos 9:15 This should be a stern warning to all who try to remove Israel from the land or land from Israel. We can see with our own eyes that Yahweh kept His word as found among others in Eze. 37:21. He shall keep this promise and also the warning as given in Obadiah :15-17.

Jerusalem belongs to Israel And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.Zech.12:3 (AV) Why shall people fight over Jerusalem? Because Yahweh shall be dwelling there and Satan does not like it. And you will know since I am Yahweh your El (deity) settling in Tsion mountain My holy one and shall be Jerusalem holy and strangers they not pass through it anymore. Joel 4:17 And the name of the city from that day "Yahweh shamah" (Yahweh is there) Eze. 48:35 Read in Zechariah Chapters 8 and 14, How large is Israel going to be? 15 And this [is] the border of the land to the north side, from the Great Sea, the way of Hethlon, to the entrance of Zedad; 16 Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim, which [is] between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath; Hazer-hatticon, which [is] by the border of Hauran.17 And the border shall be from the sea to Hazar-enan, at the border of Damascus and the north northward, even the border of Hamath. And [this is] the north side. 18 And you shall measure the east side from between Hauran, and from Damascus, and from Gilead, and the land of Israel, [shall be] the Jordan, from the border to the Eastern Sea. And [this is] the east side. 19 And the south side, southward from Tamar, to the waters of Meriboth-kadesh, the torrent to the Great Sea. And [this is] the south side southward. 20 And the west side [is] the Great Sea from the border until one is beside the entrance of Hamath. [This is] the west side. Ezek. 47:15-20(MKJV) What about other people living in the promised land? And it shall come to pass, [that] ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. And it shall come to pass, [that] in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give [him] his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.Eze.47:22-23 (AV) See also Exo 23:9 & Lev.19:34 Notice however Isa.14:1-2 as well According to the word of Yahweh the land belongs to Israel and non- Israelites should be able to live peacefully among them. If the Palestinians would recognize this today, there would be peace and prosperity. If the other nations also would recognize this there would be no judgment on them. The more people will recognize this and try to convince others of it, the less misery there shall be, when Yahweh will settle His promise and fulfills His covenant. The more Israel is going to give away from Yahweh's land, the more misery there will be in the end. We know that Satan tries to eliminate the Israelites from Israel, because he thinks Yahweh's plans will fail when he succeeds. We know however that the name Israel means exactly the opposite: "Elohiem Yahweh strives and shall prevail."

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