Yeah I made the subject line a little stronger then it had to be, but I really want to know what you guys think about what I call 'subtle' animal abuse. Owners who don't vaccinate their animals...and then they contract a preventable disease and are made to suffer (and possibly die). Owners who don't have their pets spayed/neutered and they then suffer the consequences (unwanted pregnancies, pyometra, cystic ovaries, testicular cancer, prostatic disease, etc). Owners who knowingly feed their pets bones and etc and then have same euthanised because they can't afford the intestinal surgery and associated medical care required. Grrrrrr! People like this drive me batty and I'd love to call the humane society one them... But animals are 'chattel', just like cars and boats and bikes and tractors. Unless I can prove deliberate abuse I have no recourse. We spend a LOT of time at my clinic educating clients, prospective clients, telephone shoppers, etc and I even have written privately to people who keep journals with general advice and/or educational information. I have fired several clients for reasons like those mentioned above and have told them, in no uncertain terms, that they shouldn't have pets if they are not going to take care of them properly. Any other ideas?

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

Answers

You mean like people who think they can have a garden and a puppy, but then get mad at the puppy and one day just whack him on the head with a hoe, and bury him in one of his own freshly dug holes? People like that?

Just kidding. I don't know anyone who would do something like that.

I agree with you, Cathy, about spaying and neutering and taking care of animals -- although in recent years I've stopped being such an all- out bitch about people who are irresponsible in these ways. I'm not sure why; I guess it was just the realization that most of them mean well, and my preaching wasn't changing their behavior, anyway.

I would imagine that in your position it would be incredibly difficult to deal with well meaning owners who are nonetheless neglectful.

This is a pretty good article about what the authors call common sense dog ownership. I've decided that this approach is a pretty good one for someone like me (i.e., just a random, nosy person who probably needs to mind my own business unless an animal is being abused). But I guess part of your job is educating people, isn't it?

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

(That reminds me; Doc is out of heart worm preventative, and I was supposed to go to the veterinarian to pick some up. Thanks for making me rack my brain to see if I was abusing or neglecting him in any way!)

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

Cathy, I agree with everything you've said *except* for people that have an animal euthanised because they can't afford a surgery for them. I've been in that position. I know several people that have been in that situation, and it killed them to have the animal put to sleep. I know that had they been able to afford it, there would be no question of spending thousands of dollars to have their animal happy and healthy. I don't think that's an instance of animal abuse. I think that's an instance of doing what is best for the animal that you can afford.

As for keeping your animals up to date on vaccinations, don't even get me started on that one! I'm at war with my boyfriend's mom right now over this very subject. There's been an outbreak of rabies where we live. She has an outdoors cat that hasn't had his shots in I don't know how long. Personally, I don't like cats or dogs being left to run free - too much trouble for them to get into - but I think that you need to keep outdoor pets updated on their rabies, at the *very* least. It's not even that the rabies vaccine is that expensive. Hell, at my vet, it's only $10, and we have a mobile vet that does rabies vaccines for $5! She just has a very casual attitude about animals. She thinks we're nuts because our Great Dane is an indoor dog. She says dogs belong outside. Never mind that Danes are very susceptible to heat, and we live in Texas. She can't believe that we actually spend money on heartworm medication, and take him to regular vet visits. I don't understand people with that attitude about animals. What's the point of having a pet if you're not planning on taking care of him so that you have him around for a long time?

Oh, and her cat. I wound up taking him for his rabies vaccine. It wasn't even the money that bothered me. Hell, I can shell out 10 bucks to keep her cat healthy. It's just her attitude about it. It really pisses me off!

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

Oops, I just re-read what Cathy said about surgeries. I misunderstood it the first time. Yes, in that scenario, it is definitely abusive.

Zubie hates me. He doesn't get bones.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

Oooh...this is a subject near and dear to my heart, Cathy. I worked for our local animal shelter for 18 months, nearly half of it as an Animal Control Officer. I don't think using the heading "animal abuse" is too strong, tho I consider some of the issues more ones of benign neglect. Stupidity isn't an excuse, tho.

IMHO, it's all too common to see animals who aren't spayed or neutered; who don't get annual vet visits; who are overfed and under-exercised. And the reasons range from ignorance to apathy (not you, Beth). Many people who get a dog or cat (or hamster or birds) have little to no idea what they're getting themselves into. They fail to do even the most basic research on breeds, and then realize they are completely over their heads. What started out as a cute little puppy is quickly labelled "Hound from Hell" because said dog gets little to no training, socialization, or time with their owners.

I worked with an officer who went to court over a spay/neuter issue here in Santa Cruz County. The owner, an idealistic but completely uninformed dingaling, insisted that she wanted to leave her mixed breed female unspayed and let it breed because this was "natural". What she failed to realize was that for every litter that's born, that's one less home for a dog that already is living it's remaining days out in an animal shelter or other animal rescue organization. By not being "cruel" to her dog, we would have been forced to euthanize between 8 and 10 dogs who wouldn't find homes simply because there aren't enough out there.

Yes, animals are treated like chattel. Dogs only have a limited amount of value in the eyes of the law, and cats frequently have even less so. There was a case in Ohio (I think) where two or three teens broke into a house that was being used as a rescue/adoption site for cats. They took baseball bats to a number of the animals and killed them. These sentencing was very light because it was determined the value of the cats was something like less than thirty dollars per animal. It was sick.

Educate 'em and educate 'em YOUNG. If we can get our children to see the inherent value of animal life and educate their parents, perhaps we can start to change the cycle of abuse and neglect. Many SPCAs offer education; if your's doesn't MAKE NOISE. And let everyone you know to SPAY and NEUTER. If we can reduce the numbers, perhaps we can find better homes for them all.

Stepping off her soapbox --

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

Hey, I'd be curious to hear what people think of THIS story:

I have a friend who lives in the Chicago suburbs in a small 2-bedroom condo with two indoor cats. As a result, her whole apartment reeks of cat pee and cat shit, even though she's pretty good about changing the litterbox. The cats struck me as sort of restless and neurotic, so I casually asked her why she wouldn't let the cats outside. She explained that she thought it would be cruel to let them go outside: "they can get diseases, they can be hit by cars or attacked by other animals..."

She has a point, but I think that the diminuition of the quality of life of an indoor cat outweighs any health benefits. But it made me think about the whole nature of pet ownership and under what circumstances being owned by a human is really beneficial to domestic animals. On the one hand, living in a house with people gives an animal ready access to food, water and shelter, but on the other hand, the animal is being forced to lead an unnatural lifestyle which is probably fraught with boredom. In the case of good pet owners who are able to fulfill their animals' needs, the animal is undoubtedly better off than it would be "in the wild."

But what about people who live in small apartments? People who work long hours? Should those people have the right to own pets?

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

I don't think anyone has the "right" to own a pet if they don't have the means (and that means time, money, space, interest, and knowledge) to take care of them. So if your apartment is so small that your cats are truly suffering, then no, I don't think you ought to have them. Or maybe you ought to have one of them, but not five or six.

I disagree about indoor vs. outdoor cats, Jen. It's not a small quality of life issue; the difference in life expectancy is something like eight years. Considering that cats generally live to be about 12-15 years old, that should give you an idea of the dangers that face outdoor cats.

My cats are all outdoor cats that have been converted to indoor cats. They weren't terribly happy when we all lived in a 500 square foot apartment, but they weren't miserable, either -- I cleaned their box twice a day, they had lots of good window views, and they played most of the time. Ask anyone who's met my cats; they are hardly suffering from their indoor life. But you should see the neighbor's cats -- they're outside even in rain or 110 degree weather, and they are always trying to get into my basement. They also go around with abscesses from fighting, they have constant diarrhea even though they get decent food, and they look sickly and sad compared to my cats.

Besides, there are other issues regarding outdoor cats that go beyond their well-being. Cats can and do decimate wild bird populations. I admit I like having them for rodent control, but they are predators and there is nothing "natural" about their presence on North American (or Western European or Australian) soil. Plus there is no way to confine your cat to your own property if you let it outside, and if your neighbors wanted cat shit in their yards they'd probably let their own cats out. (Ask me how I know about the diarrhea. Go on, just ask me.)

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

Hmm, I have friends who have 5 indoor cats in a house. They maintained the inside-the-house-only pattern for several years. Since they have a fence now, they let them out for "supervised" exploration.

I'm not a cat behavior expert, but mostly these cats just sleep. It doesn't seem too disturbing to them.

Right now, I live in an apartment, and I have squirrels in my wall. They gnaw and scratch, and roll their nuts around for recreation. And they have big nuts I think.

Anyway, I've been trying to get rid of these little fuckers without exterminating them, but so far unsuccessful. I finally took to filling 2 spray bottles, one with full strength ammonia, and the other with bleach and spraying the stuff one after the other into their entry hole. It makes a deadly gas -- chem warfare. But they survived. I almost didn't though, as the first batch I made of this stuff I tried to mix together in the kitchen and the stuff foamed up and out of the container -- and I promptly made an emergency evacuation out of my apartment.

Yeah, I tried blocking the hole -- and that worked for a while, but I guess I need armor plate.

(I buried a large fish in my parents yard once -- it makes great fertilizer for the grass)

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

Scrape enough dead cats (and dogs) off the road and you're liable to rethink whether living inside gives them a marginalized existence or not. Not to be graphic, but...in my experience, most outdoor cats don't seem to have it so great. They end up with abscesses from fighting other cats over territory; they can get hit by cars; they are at risk for assaults by the less than friendly neighborhood kids. I think that cats suffer less when their humans work all day.

Dogs are pack animals. They don't do as well alone. That's not to say they can't be fine. They just seem happier on the whole if they've got either canine or human companionship.

We, humans, domesticated animals. As a result, we owe them. At best, we can give them a happy, nurturing home, toys to play with, lots of attention, and companionship. My cats have a toy basket that they use. They have scratching posts, a birdfeeder to watch, and we have nightly kitty treat rituals and play time. Their litterboxes are in an outside closet so there's no smell. I like to think their existence is pretty happy. They sure act happy to see me at the end of the day, and they have each other for company.

Marginalized? I don't think so. But I could be wrong.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

Excellent timing on this question, as anyone who reads my journal knows. I hope this is just a coincidence, I really do. My guilty conscience is kicking my ass enough, thank you.

Ugh.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

I think it's just a coincidence, Rob. Cathy is a veterinarian, so I think she has plenty of examples in her daily life that would have started her off today. (Either that, or she really was talking about me and my rotten dog.)

I think we're all wishing Bloo the best, and no one is blaming you. Hope it all works out.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

jennifer's post made me think of a question. to you cat owners: do you think in general that it would be unrealistic to keep one or two cats in a one-bedroom apartment? i'm going to be moving out on my own this summer, and i've been wanting to get one or two cats for a long long long time--i grew up with cats at my parents' house and i miss having them around. but i've never lived with cats in an apartment, and i hadn't considered that it might be too small for them.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

Yeah, I know. It was just sort of funny, I've been fighting this guilty conscience all day, and when I read the question, it was like "Ow!"

Bloo is doing well, by the way. I might go see her in a little bit, although I won't be taking her home until tomorrow. I'm not sure I want the veterinarian to see me get all weepy, or he might just tack on more money to the bill. I think he already knows I'll pay whatever he asks; I didn't even hesitate when he hit me with that first figure. Again, "Ow..."

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

We have a one-bedroom place with two cats, and they love it. The key for us was LOTS of verticality. There are places where they can climb up onto cupboards and other high places and look down on us like they're in Valhalla, watching the mortals at play. They love it, they seem muchmore satisfied here than in our old two-bedroom place with no places to climb and hide.

I swear, a cat designed this apartment.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

Actually, I'd like to elaborate on that. I said in my first post that I had stopped being such an all-out bitch about neglectful owners, and Rob's post shows part of the reason why. I have an acquaintance who will go off on people whom she views as irresponsible pet owners no matter what the circumstances. I think her approach is just mean. She lectured someone whose cat got hit by a car on the day after the cat got hit. Another friend knew she needed to spay the stray she adopted, but kept bumping it back a month at a time while she tried to get some extra cash together, and the cat got pregnant. The friend does feel guilty; she knows very well that she should have had the cat spayed. The constant lectures now don't do anything except annoy the rest of us.

Yes, we all should spay and neuter our pets as soon as possible, and not be so much as a week late with their shots, and feed them the best food and never raise our voices. Lecturing a well meaning person after the damage is done is just cruel, in my opinion.

Regarding cats in apartments: I agree with Rob, verticality (is that a word? if not, it should be) is the key. I got my cats a fish tank when we lived in a particularly boring apartment. Cats don't need space so much as they need interesting things to do and look at. But keep that litter box extra clean; it's even more important in a small space.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

The best thing about living in a house will be be able to have a dog, but reading Beth these days is making me wonder if I can have a garden too. It's going to have its own play area, to dig in or not, but I know living in fenced yard in a city is going to be a lot different than living on two acres on a sleepy road in a sleepy town.

Would anyone like to blast me for having a parrot? I really have no answer to people who feel that caging birds is wrong. I agree. And it's not an issue of domestication or not, because unlike dogs and cats, companion parrots are just tame--one hopes--not domesticated. Given that, my cockatiel seems very happy and loving and at ease. He is not a caged ornament, as so many parrots tragically are. He's our companion, who kisses and bows and dances and plays and communicates and expresses affection, just as dogs and cats do--well, dogs don't dance. We might be extending his life expectancy to about three years to over 15, but we are depriving him of flight, freedom, and sex (you can't neuter birds; if so I would in a heartbeat). I never thought of these issues before I adopted a bird, but now I can't imagine my life without one.

Cathy, do you think companion parrots are an indefensible pet choice?

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

I think cats do very well in the house, especially if you start with a kitten and just never let it outside. Our clinic cat has never been outside and she doesn't seem to miss it. She has our attention all day, toys, visiting pets, the birds, etc. She is 6 years old and has never had any medical or psychological problems. If she were alone all day I would get her a 'friend', but since someone is at the clinic most of the day I don't think that is necessary in her case. And yes, mostly she sleeps on my chair all day anyway!

We also have a Congo African Grey parrot in the clinic. I rescued her as a hand raised baby with two broken legs (owner couldn't afford to fix at referral clinic) due to wild caught parents on poor diet. I don't believe in keeping wild caught birds as pets, but all the hand raised babies I see think they are people anyway and don't seem to know what they may/may not be missing. I keep her wings clipped and her very large cage door open all day so she can come and go as she pleases. At 8 years old she has a 400+ word vocabulary, teases the patients and the staff at the clinic and loves to cuddle. These large birds need a *tonne* of stimulation however and shouldn't be kept in cages all day with no company. Just like dogs they are social animals and will wither away from loneliness.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

On the cats and indoor space issue --

I agree that it's not so much the total size of the place that matters, as that you have lots of spots for the cats to play in, especially on the vertical axis.

I share my living space with 5 kitties and even when we only had 900 sq ft. they were happy as clams. Their favorite spots were in the sun patches in front of the balcony sliding door, on top of the bookcases and perching on the computer desks when we were working/playing in the office.

Check out thecatshouse.com for ideas on creating vertical play spaces for your kitties -- you don't have to go quite as far as these folks, but their choice to re-vamp their house for their cats' enjoyment is very interesting. The principles they use can be applied to ordinary household objects, or you might invest in a cat tree/playhouse that can be tucked into a corner and provide a vertical play area for the munchkins.

I don't think that it's cruel to confine your cats to an indoor lifestyle as long as they are still getting plenty of exercise, play time, fresh food/water and affection.

Our horde comes to meet us at the door when we come in at night and each feline is given a cuddle n' scritch and some treats if we have them on hand. After dinner they come and curl up around us on the couch when we read/watch TV. In the morning they get another cuddle/treat session and during the day they play with each other and their toys (there's a large piece of packing paper on the floor at the moment, that they've bee having a blast with as a hiding place/louging space).

As for neglect -- the idea of neglecting a pet makes me cry. I'm a big ole softy and every time I go to SPCA sites/shelter sites, I want to help the lonely furries to find a home.

However, I know that we've probably hit the limit of how many we can reasonably take care of. Five cats need a lot of looking after and a lot of love, although love is never in short supply.

I think that a lot of people really don't realize what it means to be a responsible pet owner, or are too hung up on the idea that humans are the only worthwhile beings on the planet to make allowances for pet behaviors.

Taking on a cat or dog, requires an adjustment in attitude and expectations, the same way that having a child does.

In many ways, having a pet has been practice for myself and Sabs on being parents and we view our cats as a part of our family. They're our kids, as important to us as a new baby would be.

The attitude that cats or dogs or other pets are objects like furniture that are disposable and less important than conveniences is anathema to me.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

I know it was Cathy that the parrot question was directed to, but I just have to chime in. I got stuck in an American customs once, long story, nothing very exciting either, and ended up shuffled off into a special waiting room near debarking in the airport. So, I am sitting there, and then these two customs officers burst through the door, basically dragging this woman between them, and she is screaming a blue streak. One of them grabbed the hem of her shirt,ripped it up over her head, and taped to her midsection were three little green parrots.

And I know that there are people that hand raise these birds in the states, and they don't all come into the country like that, but there is obviously enough demand for the animals that smugglers make money bringing them in like that.

And it was just heartbreaking, to imagine these birds, taped up for 8 hours like that. heartbreaking.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

I didn't make it clear in my post but I should: many parrot species and almost all parrot habitats are endangered. It is indefensible to steal birds from the wild, whether live at any age or in the egg. It is vitally important to ensure your potential bird was bred and hatched in captivity. Do your homework and adopt only from a reputable breeder, because the solid cuff that can be put over the foot of only a newly hatched bird could be put onto a bird whose egg was stolen from a wild nest.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

I guess my feelings about indoor cats are a result of my own pet-owning experiences. I grew up in a fairly rural area, and we had two indoor/ outdoor cats over the span of a 26-year period. During that time, each cat got in ONE fight which left visible marks, and in both cases, the injuries were superficial and didn't necessitate a vet visit. Also, practically everyone in my neighborhood had a cat or a dog, and I never once heard about anyone's pet being hit by a car. Neither cat had a major illness until "the end," and they both died of non-communicable diseases.

The cats both elected to spend about 80% of the daytime hours outside (unless it was really cold out) and neither of them ever expressed any interest in any of the cat toys we tried to foist on them--I think that commercial cat toys are probably just not as much fun as the natural ones: squirrels, birds, mice, etc.

However, I would guess that the risks faced by outdoor pets in more congested areas are greater (more people=more animals=more opportunities to catch diseases, get in fights, etc.)

Of course, if a cat never experiences the great outdoors, I'm sure it wouldn't know what it was missing, and would probably be perfectly happy. But _I_ know what they're missing, so I just can't help but feel a little bit sorry for indoor cats.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

Outdoor cats don't do well in rural areas, either, if there are coyotes in the area. It's not very appealing to see what's left of a cat after a coyote has made it into dinner. Owls will also kill kittens, and I suppose bobcats probably would, as well.

A hungry coyote will steal your cat off your back steps.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

I worked for a veterinarian for two years and then later worked with dog groomers for nearly a year. I saw the worst cases of neglect when I worked with the groomers.

I'll spare the details. But the truth is, the animals most neglected never make it to the vet or to the groomer.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

I truly believe in cats being indoors and only indoors. I also worked for a vet at one time, and saw the horrible things that can happen to a cat that spends a lot of time outdoors. And don't get me stared on the damage they'll do to the neighborhood birds and rabbits. The vets I worked for never officially recommended to their clients that they should strictly keep their cats indoors, but to those of us in the office, they let it be known that they didn't approve of hardly any outdoor cat situations.

Two or more cats keep each other company and entertain each other quite a bit. Windows and toys also help in a small space. But even when I was in a small apartment, my cats never seemed any less content.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

The injuries that animals incur by being kept outdoors are more visible than those incurred by keeping them indoors, but that doesn't mean that keeping a pet indoors doesn't have health risks. Obesity is a major health problem for pets in this country, and this is linked to a lack of exercise which can be exacerbated by keeping animals in a confined space. In addition, some animals may experience stress from understimulation in the relatively static environment of a home (this has been shown in rats raised in "enriched" vs. standard lab environments) which can result in numerous health problems.

This being said, I don't doubt Beth's statistics about indoor animals living longer. But personally, I'd rather have a 40-year life of freedom than an 80-year life locked up in someone's house.

I am certainly not saying that choosing to keep your pets in your house is abusive, especially if you live in an area which is inhospitable to free-roaming pets. But I do disagree with my friend's proclamation that letting pets outside is abusive.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

The kitty refuses to do his treadmill.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

I need to apologize, to Lisa - I have read her journal, and she is obviously someone who is a very responsible pet owner, and a responsible bird owner, and I didn't mean to make it sound like she would be someone who would end up with one of these poor smuggled birds....

I didn't mean to make it sound like she would be contributing to bird smuggling. Just so we are all clear on that.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

i had 2 cats in a 1 bedroom apartment for 4 years. i let them out and let them roam free, cause it was the natural thing to do. cats belong outdoors - it would be cruel to keep them locked inside.

and they both got into fights, 1 more than the other. she's a smaller cat, about 8 lbs. anyway, she got a few abcesses that required surgery and lots of $$$. and when they healed, i let them outdoors. again.

about a year and a half ago, my 10 year old multi-colored, polydactyl cat, whom i love dearly...was diagnosed with feline leukemia and felv. because i have another cat, it was recommended that she be put to sleep. that and the fact that the cancer spread to her kidneys, liver and stomach lining. i was devastated.

and i am embarassed to say that it took that for me to realize that it was cruel to let them roam 'free'. i am embarassed to say that i am an animal rights activist. i don't buy products that test on animals. i don't believe in animal testing - for any purpose. and knowing what i know about animal cruelty, i allowed my cat to succumb to a terrible, painful illness.

i am happy to say that my 4 year old kitty, lucy, is happily adjusting to life as an only child. she's terribly frisky and playful and full of energy and love...she tested negative to both the felv and leukemia. and because a tiny part of me hates that she has to stay indoors...i have *trained* miss lucy to go outdoors on a leash and harness. sure, she crawls on her belly the first few times of the warm weather season...but soon after, we sit outdoors for hours at a time...she eats grass and stalks the birds and squirrels and seems to forget the leash is attached to my wrist.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2000

No worries, Kristin. I didn't think you were accusing me or bird- owners in general, and I intended my second post to clarify my stance on bird-napping from the wild but not in my own defense or to condone having parrots as pets.

Cathy points out that all hand-raised (meaning human, not bird- parent raised) parrots she's known think they're human anyway (much more than dogs or cats do, in my experience) and don't know what they're missing. Jen points out that indoor cats might not know what they're missing either but that a longer life of captivity might not be more desirable than a shorter life of freedom. The same is even more true for parrots, who when home alone have even less liberty than cats, since they [should be] are caged.

Usually my love for my little buddy blinds me to the fine moral line I walk, and I appreciate discussions like these to remind me of our obligation to him.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2000

I'm also a believer in keeping cats indoors and away from cars, coyotes, other cats, etc. None of the cats I've owned, save one, have had any desire to go outdoors anyway. That one spends a lot of time at the sliding door, watching birds at the feeder, and cries to go outside sometimes, but I don't think I'm ruining his life by only letting him out on brief, supervised trips.

I'm disgusted by people who treat pets as commodities and are careless with their health and welfare. Getting a pet is a commitment. It's not something you can throw away when you get tired of it. Don't get me started.

(Rob, I don't think of you as a neglectful owner at all. I had no idea that unspayed cats could even GET infected uteri. Best wishes to you and your kitty.)

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2000

I had a cat named Thermal that was sick from the day I got him, feline asthma, liver problems, you name it. I gave him 3 pills a day for all of his life and he was happy and never, ever knew he was sick. He played, and frolicked and all of that. I never let him out, BUT I did let a few of the other cats out and lo and behold Oliver brought home a nice little incurable disease called FIP and gave it to Thermal, whose immune system was not so fantastic to begin with because of all the prednisone for the asthma. So Thermal began the struggle for his little life. We had him in all the best hospitals in Boston, Tufts, Angell Memorial, he was injected with cow plasma for God's sake. We gave up our vacation house in order to get him the necessary treatment, we loved that cat like nothing else in the world. He lost his life on March 5th of last year because I was selfish enough to let a few of my cats be outdoor cats. I will regret that always, and I keep all my cats indoors now. I provide them with lots of activities, toys, and of course they have each other. I love them enough to want them alive. the.end.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2000

A lot of people have expressed the opinion that keeping cats inside to avoid potential injuries from the outside world is more humane than letting them out.

This logic is dependent upon the assumption that leading a long life is inherently better than leading a shorter one, and that it's OK to force an animal to make some sacrifices "for its own good." This is the same logic which motivates people to subject their pets to painful treatments such as chemotherapy and dialysis to temporarily treat illnesses which will inevitably be fatal anyway.

I think that the rationale for this is anthropomorphism. We humans fear death, and are willing to put up with a lot of suffering to postpone it. This fear of death is almost certainly something that has been selected for throughout our evolution.

But do cats and dogs fear death? I doubt it--I very much doubt that they can understand what death is. Small children, who are capable of sophisticated cognitive feats such as understanding language and feeling empathy for others, can't understand death. Certainly animals are afraid of things that can hurt them, but I very much doubt that they have the cognitive ability to fear death itself.

And if a pet dies, the one who really suffers is the owner, not the pet. Unless, of course, the pet was really naughty and ends up burning in kitty hell...heh.

Of course, going outside can also subject a pet to injuries or illnesses that result in suffering, but not death--but as Pavlov showed us, mammals are very susceptible to conditioning. If an animal is truly traumatized by an attack which occurred outdoors, that animal will not want to go outside again.

Again, I'm sure that indoor cats live perfectly happy lives, and I appreciate that many cat-owners live in areas where letting a cat outside would be extremely dangerous. But I think that pet owners ought to examine their motives in "protecting" their pets from things. Your cats and dogs don't necessarily share your values.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2000

I'm not sure if wild animals live longer in captivity -- for instance in a zoo. (let's say a well-designed zoo)

But even if they do, I'm not sure if one can make a moral judgment about comparing a caring zoo environment with health care, and freedom from predators, to the natural habitat. (that is if a natural habitat still exists for the particular animal)

You'd have to speculate that natural habitats -- since they are more dangerous to the animal's well-being are more "cruel" and I'm not comfortable with that idea.

Anyway, I'm not sure if "domesticated" house cats wouldn't qualify as wild if they were the size of a tiger, for instance. What's the likelihood, with that size house cat, you wouldn't suffer a serious injury sooner or later? And then someone would point out, 'well, he's unpredictable" just like a wild animal. Sure he seems docile 90% of the time.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2000

dogs and cats don't have values at all, so that point makes no sense whatsoever. If your opinion is that animals are better off outside being free, but more likely to be harmed and killed, then I respect your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. But isn't loving a child or a pet or another human being for that matter wanting to protect them, want them not to be harmed in any way, and that is especially true if they are not able to look after themselves for whatever reason. So in loving someone/thing isn't it natural to want them or it to live a long life? I think when I look at my cat that he has no idea that the cars whizzing by out in front of my house will crush it in an instant. No idea that their are coyotes around my house that would love to eat him. His instinct is survival, but that instinct doesn't include tractor trailor trucks doing 70 miles an hour on the street. The cat isn't in the jungle anymore, he is in my home. I take care of the cats by loving them, feeding them, keeping their areas clean and safe, why then would I send the unknowing cat out into the street to get killed? I can't understand reasoning like yours at all. I just can't.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2000

I function all day under self-induced dog guilt. My two roommates and I all work eight hours a day. The majority of which my dog spends outside, in his yard, dead asleep. So when I get home all I can think is that I will keep him inside until I can stay awake no longer and try to make up for his boring day. If I thought he played around while we were gone, it might be different. I've watched him to see what he does in the yard and all he does is sleep until someone comes home. It breaks my heart.

I can't really contribute to the cat discussion (highly allergic) but I do want to give a smack to all the people out there who live in apartments with no yard whatsoever and then get dogs who, when fully grown, are very large. If you know yourself to be a responsible pet owner and ensure your dog gets enough exercise, then I'm not talking to you. I've acquired two dogs in the last three years because people bought large breeds and then acted stunned when the dog was destructive inside their house. Upon querying, I found that they rarely walked them and provided no real outlet for their dog's energy. I, however, am lucky enough to have a house with a fenced-in yard (we built the fence) and usually end up taking these dogs in until I can find them a new home where they won't be locked inside all day.

My dog gets into all sorts of things--you can rarely leave him alone for ten minutes and if he is in the house and you can't hear him, watch out. He's definitely into something. I zoned out on the computer for about fifteen minutes the other night and he ate a candle that someone had left sitting on the front porch. That resulted with Oscar getting to stay in for four more hours so I could keep an eye on him to make sure he wouldn't get sick. I think he does that on purpose sometimes because he knows I will have a heart attack.

Maybe I am misinformed--the only bones dogs can't have are chicken bones, right? We do give my dog rib bones and sometimes t-bones and he just loves these. There isn't a problem with those bones, I hope? If he happened to get sick, regardless of what the cause was, euthanizing him would not be an option. I would take out a loan or get another credit card to pay for it. ANYTHING. Euthanizing is NOT an option if the problem can be fixed. I had to have my dog from my parents house euthanized (she was 18 and in very poor health) and it was the most terrible experience I have ever been through. Someone please tell me if he's not supposed to have these!

My parents gave me a dog when I was very young and I think my experiences with her (a wonderful Spitz) really became the basis for my entire view of animals. My friends tease me that I pay more attention to my dog than to people but who else will look out for him? When I was growing up, my dog often functioned as a stay-at-home best friend and now that I have another dog, I pretty much try to take him with me wherever I go. I don't think animals are chattel. I tend to think of animals as children. They didn't ask to be here, they can't take care of themselves, it was the human's choice to have them, so put up or find a decent home for the dog (or cat or bird) and don't get another one.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2000

Nancey, my use of the word "values" was a bit of poetic license which was apparently not very effective. What I meant to convey is that pets and humans want different things out of life.

I agree that if you love someone or something, it's natural to want to protect them. But what I was saying is that this fundamentally a selfish desire. Not that there's anything wrong with selfish desires...

Furthermore, I think your point about cats not having the instinct to avoid cars is completely off base. 99% of cats and dogs, even very young ones, are very afraid of moving cars (and most other big, loud, fast-moving objects), and will approach traffic very gingerly.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2000

You know, I will agree with Jen that some cats are happier outdoors. I think my cats Rudy and Benny would be much happier if they could play safely outdoors (although I think most cats, if they know how warm it is inside, would prefer to sleep there in the winter or when it's wet outside.)

But I don't think it matters that they might be "happier" outside. Domestic cats and dogs were created by us to live with us and act as our companions. They have no natural habitat. They are predators that have no natural prey. It is environmentally and socially irresponsible to allow your cats to roam free, whether or not it makes them happy.

I agree with the person who said that since we created these species, we have a responsibility to take care of them. I would add this: we have a responsibility to keep our man-made species from feasting on wild animals, which includes birds and native rodents.

(I would love it if an Australian would chime in here about the devastation done to Australian wildlife by feral cats. Those tiny marsupials and the little birds that nest at knee height had no natural predators until cats were introduced. And unlike the western United States, where there are coyotes to limit feral cat populations, I don't think there are many animals around to keep the cat population in check in Australia. The feral cats I saw were enormous, the size of a large terrier.)

And Jen, it may be true that dogs and cats have an instinct to be afraid of cars. They sure don't seem to have an instinct to get out of the way, though. Your 99% figure doesn't sound right to me, since 100% of my cats that were allowed outside past the age of nine months wound up dying of terminal tire tracks.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2000

Please, Please, Please go into a veternarians office one summer day and explain to them that 99% of animals have a natural "instinct" to be afraid of cars. If it wasn't so sad they would laugh their asses off. I work in a small Museum and since the nice weather here has started- 6 different employees have had cats that have gotten killed or disappeared when let outdoors. I think it is irresponsible to let your pets roam free. period. I have seen too many horrific things happen to animals at the hands of teenagers and evil people. Most shelters here in the New England area will not adopt out an animal to you unless you sign something that says they will not be outdoor animals. I think there are extenuating circumstances- maybe living out on a farm in the middle of nowhere, but let's use some common sense o.k.? They depend on us to give them safety and look out for them, how is it o.k. to let them down by waving good-bye at the front door and hoping that maybe a car won't zoom by and catch the cat under the wheels? I've seen it happen time and again. Maybe these cats weren't aware of your 99% statistic.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2000

I don't think you need to live on a farm. Perhaps it's more how close you live to the first busy street.

I can only base this on observations of my families cats histories, and cats I have known.

And furthermore, I think we have as much domesticated obligation to cows as we do to cats. And we eat cows. (well some of us do)

While apparently it is humane to keep your cat indoors, it is also within the range of human rationality to cook him for dinner one night.

some cultures eat dogs, some don't eat cows, and probably some eat cats (somewhere)

(I just don't think cats trump cows, and if so, how?)

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2000

I'm pretty sure Cory is kidding, but in case someone doesn't follow him: humans domesticated different animals for different purposes-- cattle to eat their meat and milk, cats for rodent control and companionship, and dogs for hunting, a variety of other tasks, and companionship. My friends who keep sheep for annual slaughter name them and pet them and then eat them, which I didn't understand at first but now call an honest and straightforward relationship. We don't want meat animals in our houses because they're not good companions--except the grandmother's pig in The Robber Bride.

Cats don't belong outside except on leashes for the same reasons horses don't. Mustangs are beautiful and widely perceived as a symbol of U.S. freedom and indeed the continent did host prehistoric horse-type critters, but in their current incarnation they're non- native, destructive interlopers. Like brown snakes in Guam, which have rendered that island bird-less and now, through shipping, threaten Hawaii. And the grass kudzu, and gypsy moths in North America.

Like almost every other environmental ill, I trace this one to overpopulation. When there weren't so many of us humans and our companions animals, our combined effect on the environment, though negative, wasn't great enough to tip the balance. Now it is. Neuter your pets and keep 'em inside: be responsible or don't keep a pet at all.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2000

>>But I don't think it matters that they might be "happier" outside. Domestic cats and dogs were created by us to live with us and act as our companions.<<

Bravo, Beth. Well said. There are some schools of thought that believe animals don't even possess emotion. It's not a school I subscribe to, but....The adjective "domestic" is imporant here. Domestic as opposed to feral. Domestic as opposed to exotic. Domestic animals are companion animals. They DO NOT thrive in the wild. Dumping a cat that doesn't go with the furniture anymore (happened!) off in a field because "he'll hunt and be fine; at least he won't be killed at the pound" is one of the cruelest and most misinformed decisions a pet owner can make. Cats don't thrive. They die, slowly, and suffering. That's the point in keeping them inside. It's not about being happy. It's about taking responsibility for a creature we've created.

>>They are predators that have no natural prey. << Save for humans.

With regard to the 99% statistic about cats staying out of the road. I'm sorry, but bullshit. That's absolutely untrue. Cats have NO, repeat NO understanding of the necessarily logic to cross a busy street. They freeze. They dart in directions that are counterintuitive. If a cat safely crosses the street, it's LUCK, not instinct. I've scraped hundreds (no exagerration) of cats off roads, both busy and quiet. No one seemed to tell them they had the "instinct" to cross safely.

In San Jose, there have been a rash of cat mutilations in the last year or so. Well, recently, it was determined that coyotes are the culprits. Coyotes, dogs, people, cars, other wildlife, other cats, etc. are the domestic cat's enemy, and I say enemy in the sense that they will or have the potential to cost the cat her life. We, as the human caretakers are ultimately responsible for their well being. We domesticated them; they didn't domesticate us.

Jen, I respect your opinions, and I think you raise some good points. I just think the instinct thing is off.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2000

Oh! I almost forgot something! Did anyone hear the thing on Cane Toads on NPR this week? There was a hysterical report about the scourge of the Cane Toad in Australia.

The toads were imported from South America some time ago to try to control the Cane Beetle. They're huge--like 24 inches long and a good 3-7 lbs. Problem is, Cane Toads don't eat Cane Beetles. At all. All they do is make more toads.

It gets worse, tho. Cane Toads emit a neurotoxin thru their skin that is poisonous to any and all creatures that grab them (i.e. dogs, cats, goana lizards, etc). The poison will kill an average sized adult dog in a few hours.

How's that for pure human stupidity? Apparently, no one researched this particularly carefully before importing them. Chalk up another smooth move for humans.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2000

I said that 99% of all cats FEAR cars. I didn't say that 99% of all cats were fast enough or smart enough to be able to get out of the way of cars, which is obviously not the case.

And while its true that domestic cats and dogs are distinct species from their wild ancestors, I truly think that the sheltered life most American cats and dogs live is pretty unusual, both historically and compared to the rest of the world. In many countries, especially third world countries, feral cats and dogs are quite common. (Just to be clear about my terminology: a feral cat is a cat who lives in the wild but is of the same species as the domestic housecat).

There has been a family of feral cats living in the bushes outside my dad's office for almost 30 years now, and I have a feeling that if it weren't for animal control, feral cats would probably be a major problem in this country, too (coyotes may be common in California, but in the Massachusetts town where I grew up they were almost unheard of). Cats are tougher than you guys are giving them credit for!

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2000

Jen, feral cats are a huge problem in this country. Ask any chapter of the Audubon Society.

And with all due respect, I seriously doubt that the individual members of that feral cat colony were living for very long, although the colony itself may have managed to survive. I grew up with an intermittently thriving feral cat population right in my back yard. Those cats regularly wound up splattered on the highway, getting carried off by owls, starving to death, being nearly decimated by various diseases ... and then resurging in the next year or so when some environmental factor changed.

They were like rats, quite frankly, but like rats that had been bred not to particularly fear humans. ("Feral" doesn't just mean "of the same species as the domestic variety;" it means a formerly domesticated animal that has reverted to the wild, or the descendents thereof. Like mustangs, which are technically feral rather than wild.) Some years my parents would have literally hundreds of sickly little kittens crapping in their garden, dying by the dozens, and getting under foot. Then something would happen -- maybe a new influx of coyotes, an increase in the snake population competing for mice and rats, or a new owl in the vicinity -- and the population would decline again, and the few cats that were left would look a little healthier for a while.

So, yeah, technically the colony survived. So what? In the years with lots of cats, there were virtually no song birds around my parents' house. To the native bird population, it was as if someone had unleashed a pack of tigers on their territory.

It's not okay for humans to create a whole new species (which domestic cats are, I believe; I don't believe they have a wild counterpart, although dogs are now considered a subspecies of wolf) and then unleash it in a place where it doesn't belong. We have to take more responsibility than that.

And by the way, those cats I was discussing were the truly feral cats. They managed to survive as a colony if not as individuals. The other cats around the place were cats dropped off by their owners, those idiots who think a tame cat can survive on its own out in the country. Those ones rarely lasted more than a week or two, and they usually died pretty horribly. I know, because I used to find the bodies. So much for cats being tougher than we think.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2000

I can not contribute to this discussion any longer, as my home computer stinks, but Jennifer, I think with all due respect, that you are misinformed. I do not care how you phrase it, cats do not fear cars, we are nitpicking words and the fact is that cats that are let outside are in more danger than cats that are kept indoors. We do now have coyotes where I live in Massachusetts, they are responsible for many deaths of cats and other small animals. The facts are the facts and the fact is that if you let your animal outside unleashed and unattended, the chances are much higher that that animal will get hurt or killed. I am not arguing that the animal would be happier outside, I am just saying that we have certain responsibilities as pet owners. Our responsibilities in owning a pet is not all that different as our duty to raising children. Do everything in your power to ensure the safety of that pet. Feed, clean, love, protect I don't think it is that hard to understand. You certainly wouldn't let your kids run through traffic and I don't think that a cat has much more sense when it comes to motorcycles or cars.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2000

There seems to be a LOT of confusion as to what I have said. People are "disagreeing" with me about things I haven't even said. Therefore I will reiterate the main points:

1. Outdoor cats in general live shorter lives than indoor cats. However, nobody here has been able to come up with any statistics on exactly how great the difference in risk is and what factors determine which environments are relatively safe for cats and which aren't.

2. This difference in risk does not mean that it is cruel to let your cat outside, because many cats get a lot of pleasure from the highly stimulating outdoor environment.

3. If your cats want to go outside, and you won't let them, they don't understand that it's for their own good, they'll just think you're being mean to them.

4. It's debatable as to whether it's more humane to let your cats do what they want to do or to do what is more likely to prolong their lives.

5. My feeling on the debate is that most cats probably don't care if they live for 8 years or for 15 years, so if you truly have the cat's best interest in mind, you might as well let them do what they want.

6. The fact that feral cats, which are biologically identical to the cats we keep in our homes, are able to survive well in the wild (and even to dominate some ecosystems) counterindicates Beth's contention that cats are not biologically suited to an outdoor environment.

7. Furthermore, while I don't have any data to support this, it is my understanding that throughout history, "domestic" cats have spent most of their time outside, and this is still the case with most domestic cats worldwide. The fact that cat litter wasn't invented until 1947 further suggests that the life of the indoor cat is a relatively modern development.

8. Finally, I think that comparing the care of a cat to the care of a child is completely inappropriate. Unlike cats, children are able to understand (at least eventually) when they are forced to make sacrifices for their own good. Furthermore, if you want to make this comparison, you might as well say that letting your children outside your house is inhumane as well. When kids go outside they can be attacked by other kids or by wild animals! They can get hit by cars and catch diseases or be kidnapped or molested!

9. In case you didn't get it, that last point about not letting your kids outside was supposed to be facetious. As I have already said, comparing kids and pets is not valid.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2000

The fact that feral cats, which are biologically identical to the cats we keep in our homes, are able to survive well in the wild (and even to dominate some ecosystems) counterindicates Beth's contention that cats are not biologically suited to an outdoor environment.

... except that "fact" (that feral cats do well in the wild) is based on your anecdotal evidence regarding one feral cat colony near your father's office. All I said was that the feral cat *colony* in my experience did intermittently well; the individual cats generally didn't live to be more than a year or two old, and the vast majority died as kittens. (And I'm willing to bet that the majority of the individual cats in the colony your father knew of didn't do very well, either.) In the meantime, they suffered from worms, fleas, abscesses, malnourishment, and a host of diseases resulting in bald patches, hacking coughs, runny eyes, and blindness. I wouldn't call that "doing well." They survived well enough to kill birds that evolved on this continent without natural predators -- the fact that cats could dominate those particular ecosystems (while still breeding themselves into a miserable existence) is hardly an argument for their suitability to run wild.

My cat Rudy is the offspring of that feral cat colony. The cats in the colony are always very small; I'd guess most of them weigh about five pounds, tops. That's true even during the times when my parents have put out food. They are small boned with dull coats. Rudy weighs 19 pounds and he isn't fat. He's fourteen inches tall and about twenty-two inches long not including his tail. Measure an average housecat and you'll see that he's a really big cat. Those feral cats that are doing so well are undernourished, underdeveloped, and sickly. After a year of living with me and eating plain old grocery store cat food, Rudy was fully twice the size of his cousins and littermates who were still roaming my parents' farm.

(Don't worry, Cathy, I feed him better now!)

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2000

Some links that might be of interest:

• Feral cats and rabies. This link also has some information about spay and release programs.
  
  
• Feral Cats: an informational page that includes, among other information, this statistic: The average house cat, if left outdoors without being spayed or neutered, has a 60% chance of becoming feral within three years. I'm not sure if I buy that, but it could be true.
  
  
• The National Audubon Society's page about cats and bird populations.
  
  
• In the interest of fairness, here is an article that claims that concerns about wild bird populations are unfounded. I do note that this article mostly focuses on Great Britain; this analysis would certainly not apply to the unique ecosystems in Australia, and I'm not sure how well it applies to various parts of the United States.
  
  
• The Humane Society's reasons for recommending that all cats be kept indoors. This article reiterates many of the points made here today. A quote: According to Barbara L. Diamond's article "Bringing the Outdoors In" (Cat Fancy, April 1990), "While the average outdoor or indoor-outdoor cat lives two to three years, an indoor-only cat's average life span is 12 to 15 years or more."
  
  

Another issue that really hasn't been addressed is the simple fact that having outdoor cats is really rude to your neighbors who might not like cats. You can't restrict a cat to your own property. I am a cat lover, but I'm ready to drown the little monsters that keep using my yard as a litter box. I'm tired of finding dead birds and squirrels, and I'm tired of never knowing what I'm going to find when I dig in my own yard. And I like cats -- I can't imagine how much more this would annoy me if I were allergic, or I didn't like cats, or if I were pregnant (cat fecal matter poses serious risks to pregnant women).

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2000

Here is another article from the University of Wisconsin regarding the damage done to wildlife by domestic cats. This article makes a convincing case that domestic cats that are allowed to go outside are more effective at decimating wildlife than their wild or feral counterparts, because they are protected from disease and predation by their owners, given supplemental food (meaning that their numbers aren't dependent on available prey), and not otherwise limited by territoriality. In other words, despite the grim statistics regarding the average lifespan of an outdoor cat, it can still do a lot of damage in the few years it has.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2000

>.. except that "fact" (that feral cats do well in the wild) is based > on your anecdotal evidence regarding one feral cat colony near your >father's office.

Oh, no. I didn't intend that to be my evidence.

My evidence is the fact that feral cats exist at all--one of the pages you linked states that there are 60 million feral cats in the U.S. alone (and this is a country which has been aggressive in its attempts to reduce the number of feral cats). If cats were truly unsuited to a wild lifestyle, there would be no feral cats, or at least there wouldn't be 60 million of them in America. I'm not debating the fact that individual feral cats live short lives and that many don't survive. That's why cats have evolved to have large, frequent litters.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2000

Then Jen, how on earth does that support your argument that cats are happier (or better off, or whatever it is that you're arguing) living outdoors? Do we just let them breed indiscriminately? Get a new cat when that one gets hit by a car? Ignore the potential damage they do to other species?

The fact is, we don't adopt cat colonies, we adopt individual cats. Your initial argument, that outdoor cats live more fulfilling lives than indoor cats, may or may not have some validity, although I'd say that just the non lethal problems faced by outdoor cats probably refute that contention. I can't possibly see how the fact that populations of feral cats can continue to persist by dying young and producing large litters relates to the quality of life of a single domestic cat that's allowed to roam around outdoors.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

I read the humane society page, and I think it's a bit short on science. The statistic on the lifespans of indoor and outdoor cats struck me as being particularly murky. For one thing, the source is < I>Cat Fancy magazine, which isn't a scientific publication, and for another thing they don't divulge the parameters of the study (i.e. how the data was collected, what environments the different cats lived in, etc.) Further, I would guess that the statistics are probably complicated by the fact that the risk of death for cats is probably high in the first few months or so, then it probably goes back down again, and then starts going back up in middle age. Thus, taking the mean life expectancy may be a misleading figure.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

Another link: cats are blamed for the extinction of 18 native Australian species.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

Beth, I'm not saying that outdoor cats are the same as feral cats. I was merely using the feral cat as an example to specifically refute your argument that cats are domesticated and thus aren't suited to an outdoor lifestyle.

My point was that from a purely biological standpoint, the feral lifestyle is probably closer to the conditions under which modern housecats have evolved than the lifestyle of the typical American housecat.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

...your argument that cats are domesticated and thus aren't suited to an outdoor lifestyle

Except that I didn't say that. If anything, I said that the outdoor environment isn't suited to them.

And the arguments you've made in favor of cats being suited to an outdoor lifestyle all relate to populations of cats, not individual cats. I know you're a scientist and you want scientific proof, but I will put my experience, the experiences of the animal care workers who have posted here regarding their own experiences with cat mortality, and the information provided by the Humane Society against your singular experience regarding your family's cats. The American Veterinary Medicine Association recommends that cats be kept indoors. Every veterinarian I've ever met recommends that cats be kept indoors. The Humane Society and other animal welfare groups that deal directly with the problems faced by outdoor cats recommend that cats be kept indoors, and many local rescue groups won't allow you to adopt if you don't promise to keep the cat indoors. Each of these groups deals directly with sick, injured, or deceased cats, and I imagine they have a pretty good idea of the relative risks faced by indoor vs. outdoor cats. You can hold out for a scientific study regarding relative life spans if you wish, but I would say that the evidence is pretty clear that letting cats roam free is detrimental to their well being, to wildlife populations, and to your relationship with your neighbors. Your only real argument to the contrary is that domestic cats might be "happier" if they are allowed to roam free. With all due respect, I'd say it's you who are guilty of anthropomorphizing.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

About a year after my parent's cat died my dad kept finding remains of dead birds around the yard -- feathers mostly

One day while he was out in the yard standing under a tree, a snake about a foot long fell out of the tree on his head with a bird in its mouth.

(I just thought I'd bring that up as a defense for outdoor cats)

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

I have to agree with Beth re: anthropomorphizing. Cats don't "think we're mean" because we don't let them outside. I doubt that they have the capacity to think to think in terms of mean or kind. They know who feeds them, who gives them attention, and who will protect them. This is instinct based on conditioning and reinforcement.

To say that a cat is "happier" because it's allowed to go out is truly anthropomorphizing. How do we know what goes on in their fuzzy little heads? Ever watched your cat go after a phantom bug? All we can do scientifically is observe their behavior. Anything else is projection on our part.

With regard to ferals not being suited to the environment/the environment not being suited to the cat: Beth is again right about the small stature/dull coat that generally represents the feral population. Their coats are dull and their runty because they are malnourished (not enough protein); they don't get enough fresh water; and they are constantly fighting off the ever changing landscape of different viruses. Did you know that when a cat gets a cold, that virus is eventually defeated but in times of stress that virus can be reactivated in the cat much in the same way herpes is reactivated in humans.

Speaking of herpes, cats are susceptible to this virus as well. FELV, FIV, FIP, and a whole host of others are what await feral cats over time. The abscesses the males (and females) get only serves to weaken their immune systems. Couple all of this with the stress that they suffer in merely trying to stay alive and I think the issue of whether they're "happier" or not goes out the window. Feral cats don't live happier lives. They live marginalized at best. Ever seen a young feral kitten with a rectal torsion? Want to guess how many kittens are born this way? They are suffering, in great pain, and not "happy" about being outside.

Bottom line: while I don't believe it to be "cruel" to let your cat out on occassion under direct supervision, I'm not about to do it to mine.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

Oh, shoot, I forgot one other point. Early on, Jen said this:

Obesity is a major health problem for pets in this country, and this is linked to a lack of exercise which can be exacerbated by keeping animals in a confined space.

I'm sure Cathy will correct me if I'm wrong, and of course I can't find the link with the information, but according to my vet and an article I read on the net when my cat was sick two years ago, this is only true of dogs. According to my vet, there is no link between feline obesity and hypertension and heart disease, for instance, and the primary associated health risk is diabetes. Cats are prone to a fatal liver disease called hepatic lipidosis as a result of metabolizing their own body fat during times of malnourishment; for this reason, my vet recommends against putting an obese cat on a diet. I would imagine that feral cats, which exist with varied food supplies, probably run a risk for this liver disease, as well.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

>And the arguments you've made in favor of cats being suited to an >outdoor lifestyle all relate to populations of cats, >not individual cats.

Yes, because that's how cats have lived throughout their evolution. It's only recently that we have begun to prolong housecats' lives through science: by vaccinating and medicating them and having them routinely spayed and neutered. I obviously don't think it's better for cats to live short, prolific lives, but I also don't think that there's any historical precedent for saying that the default lifespan of a cat is 15 years.

As for the recommendations of various veterinary organizations, I think it's important to keep in mind that these recommendations are targeted at the entire general public. Since most Americans live in urban areas, I would agree that this is a good recommendation for most cat-owners. But not all.

>Your only real argument to the contrary is that domestic cats might be >"happier" if they are allowed to roam free. With all due respect, I'd >say it's you who are guilty of anthropomorphizing.

I don't think it's anthropomorphic to say that animals find certain experiences more pleasant than others. Every animal model that I know of, from cats down to fruitflies, shows distinct patterns of neurotransmitter release following aversive and pleasurable stimuli. I think that the ability to be happy is one of the few things that is fairly well scientifically established about the mental state of cats (although I don't think anyone has tested cat brains for the presence of "happiness" in an outdoors setting vs. an indoors one!)

As for the cat poop issue, I guess I didn't realize there was one. My two cats always buried theirs.

And with respect to the damage cats can inflict on local bird and wildlife populations, I'm not sure it's appropriate to extrapolate from such problems in certain areas that cats shouldn't be allowed outside anywhere.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

I also don't think it's anthropomorphic to say that some cats are happier outside. As I already stated cats have certain physiological responses to pleasurable stimuli. Furthermore, I am assuming that my cat enjoyed being outside from the following behavioral experiment, which I have repeated literally thousands of times in my life:

-cat scratches at window or door -Jen responds by opening door for cat -cat stands in doorway for a moment. Cat has the option to stay in the house or leave the house. Cat leaves the house, and stays outside for several hours, when she scratches at the door again.

I don't think it's a huge leap to deduct from this that the cat wanted to go outside.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

Cory: virtually all of your arguments can be answered by the simple fact that "feral" does not equal "natural." It makes no more sense to unleash feral cats on this continent than it does to unleash any other exotic animal.

Jen said:

As for the recommendations of various veterinary organizations, I think it's important to keep in mind that these recommendations are targeted at the entire general public. Since most Americans live in urban areas, I would agree that this is a good recommendation for most cat-owners. But not all.

Your experiences to the contrary, I'd guess that most of the dangers facing outdoor cats are more prevalent in rural areas than in urban areas. My experience with feral and stray cats has mostly been in rural areas. Cats were hit by cars, killed by predators, starved, and killed by disease. Furthermore, rural areas are where cats are most likely to damage wildlife populations. If anything, I would guess that urban areas are safer for cats, and suburban areas are probably safest of all.

Jen also said:

As for the cat poop issue, I guess I didn't realize there was one. My two cats always buried theirs.

In someone else's garden, no doubt. I don't find it lying on the ground; I find it buried under two inches of soil. My soil, where I like to dig. I've tossed out more than one pair of garden gloves this spring.

And with respect to the damage cats can inflict on local bird and wildlife populations, I'm not sure it's appropriate to extrapolate from such problems in certain areas that cats shouldn't be allowed outside anywhere.

... and I'm not sure it's right for selfish pet owners to unleash their domesticated predators on wild animals unless they've got some good scientific evidence that cats don't affect wildlife in their area. I don't think the burden of proof ought to be the other way around.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

Lest you think I'm overly sensitive about cats in my garden, or that my neighbor's cats are particularly bad, here's a quick sampling of posts from the garden forum I frequent:

cats using my yard as a litter box
Cats AAAGH!
Cat urine in my compost
Cats!!! #$%^&*()_
Neighborhood cats are ruining my plantings
Electronic cat scarers
cats in the garden
cats: how to keep out of bushes and away from bird nests
Cats and reclaiming my soil

... and that was just the first two pages. It goes on and on and on. Trust me, if you have an outdoor cat and neighbors who garden, your neighbors hate you. A lot.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

I don't have any pets. Tristan has strong 'animals should be free' issues, which means no visits to the zoo, either. I think it comes from living in Africa for a few years and actually getting to see elephants wandering around and stuff - makes it difficult to get excited when they have 50 square feet to play in and lots of people staring at them all day.

I've had a dog, a cat, and horses during my childhood. Dogs are only good if you've got a huge garden, which rules them out in London (even if I could talk Tristan around). Cats are pretty cool in some ways, because I really like their 'fuck you' attitude, but Tristan has pet hair problems. It's just as well he's got so many other appealing qualities, because you could otherwise be fooled into thinking he doesn't let me have any fun!

But cats also kind of suck, because following along from Beth's point about all the native species in Australia killed off by cats, they also did a lot of damage in NZ. But it's probably not the cats fault (unless a boat of cat settlers landed at any stage in the 19th century, which I don't think happened) - it's the stupid bloody settlers. These were a bunch of people so stupid that they deliberately brought gorse, the most annoying and noxious weed in the history of farming, over with them from England, so they could have pretty hedges around their gardens. Now gorse is all over half the hills of NZ's farm land. They may have been my forefathers and everything, but they were seriously lacking in foresight.

Anyway, I disagree regarding it being 'animal abuse' to put a pet down if you can't afford to pay for an operation. It would be cruel to just not do anything instead of paying for the operation, and it would be sad to put the animal down, but it's not cruel to put the animal down. It's a painless death, no? I'm all for pet insurance, by the way, and if I'm ever allowed a pet I'll be investigating that.

I'm suffering from sleep deprivation and overwork-induced stress today, so please excuse me.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

I can't imagine many things worse than having one of my pets become injured and ill and not having any way to pay for treatment. It's not really an issue now -- we'd find a way -- but a few years ago, it could have happened. I would have had to have had my cat Vinnie put to sleep after he was attacked by a coyote if my mom hadn't paid the bill (oops, I think I still owe her for that).

I've known people with plenty of money who had their animals put to sleep rather than pay a $300 vet bill, and I've known folks with no money at all who sold cars and took out loans to pay thousands of dollars in vet bills. I also know one couple that decides in advance how much their pets are worth. They settle on $500 per cat; anything more than that and they'll have the cat put to sleep.

I suppose that's the "easy" way, but I hope that quality of life falls into that equation somewhere.

When I was in college, one of my coworkers found an injured kitten outside the library where we worked. (UCLA at that time had hundreds of feral cats on campus; they were very healthy because a group of people paid to have them vaccinated and neutered, and some women brought them cat food every day.) The kitten had apparently been kicked, stepped on, or hit by a bicycle, and it couldn't walk or clean itself. He didn't have a car or any money at all, so my roommate took him and the kitten to the vet. The price the vet quoted them was in the thousands of dollars. They opted to have the kitten put to sleep; even the forty dollars the vet charged for that was out of our league at the time. My roommate put it on her credit card, but that forty bucks was a pretty big deal at the time.

It was really horrible. My coworker was depressed for days after that, and I think my roommate felt guilty, too, because there just wasn't enough money to fix the kitten. It wasn't even our cat; I can't imagine how bad it would have been if had been our pet.

On a more positive note, some veterinarians and vet schools will charge reduced fees for treating catastrophic injuries or illnesses, or will let you set up a payment plan. Not all doctors can afford to do that, but some will do it. When my friend's kitten was attacked by neighbor kids wielding a baseball bat, the vet charged her $300 for months and months of treatment that included skin grafts, reconstructive surgery, and some intensive care at the beginning. I spent almost that much in one day at the same office just to find out that Benny had gingivitis.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

If you want your cat to live, keep it in the house. If you don't give a damn, let it outside...

Remember what Antoine de Saint-Exupery said "You are responsible forever for what you have tamed." Domestic cats are pets, not wild animals, and if you choose to add one to your family you must be responsible for it. This responsibility includes not allowing your pet to run loose. If you feel your cat needs to go outside, then you must build an enclosed run/play area and/or train the cat to go out on a leash.

If you are not willing to take responsibility for your pet(s), then please leave pet ownership to those who will!

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

Now onto a different topic....

Anyone catch Dateline last night on pet stores & puppy mills? GREAT story and hopefully will get some heads out of asses! In my town we have a *veterinarian* who owns a pet store that sells animals...nice eh?

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

hopefully, that veterinarian is ethical and very selective about the puppies he buys and then marks up for the public. i.e., maybe he purchases from hobby breeders; let's hope.

on the subject of indoor dogs, i have lived in one bedroom apartments with my 90 lb rottweiler, and she has been JUST FINE. why? because she doesn't have the rambunctious personality most people assume she does. she's docile, and quiet, and lays on her back, batting at toys with her big paws -- just like a cat. now, if i never walked her -- that'd be a whole different story. but i do. to the tune of 5 miles a week.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

I don't understand how people can knowingly go to pet stores when there are possibly twice the number of loving and lonely animals that are waiting to be adopted at the local animal welfare. My mother bought a dog from a pet store (first and last time) and it was extremely sick, it almost didn't survive. Whether or not it's related to puppy mills, I don't know, but it's highly probably that it was a factor. I can't even watch the shows regarding the puppy mills because it's just so upsetting to see what goes on.

When my husband and I were ready to have a dog, we went to animal welfare. As we were walking through, I couldn't help feeling so sad knowing that half of the might possibly be destroyed due to lack of interest. Meanwhile, someone will go to the local pet store and spend $400 on a puppy from god knows where. Doesn't make sense.

I am very happy with where we got our dog, she's perfect (well, not all the time of course, but I won't go into details). She's our child and I couldn't imagine our home without her. I think, no, I know, that we will always go there for our future animals.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

I admit I don't really understand Jen's point. But it seems clear to me that cats who live indoor live longer, don't kill birds, and are less annoying to neighbors.

Some people I know feel it goes against a cat's "nature" to keep it indoors, and that a domesticated cat isn't living its true spirit or something. I feel like that may very well be true, but the cats I've known seemed pretty darn domestic. And, I didn't want to lose them or shorten their lives. If that's selfish, so be it.

I still don't understand what defines a puppy mill and all the other issues involved. Yes, there are breeders who keep their animals in bad conditions. There are other breeders who are very responsible. All breeders aren't bad, are they?

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

Hey Cathy, one could argue many wild animals could live a longer healthier life indoors, or in captivity.

In fact, those wild animal rescue places may very will nurse an animal back to health, release it into the wild, where it may die from natural causes in a very short time. But the length of their life wasn't the point, it was the quality. Or else, simply keep them in the rescue center. And I do believe they care about their animals.

Also, considering the sheer number of cats out there, even if you see a good number in the clinic every day, what percentage of that number escape similar injuries their whole life? Without knowing that, one for instance, could be working pediatrics for children, and say, because I see kids coming in every day (which is normal!!), there are a lot of neglectful parents out there. (without determining 99.9 percent of the local population of children that could visit that ER, never show up that entire year)

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

I was asking about stats, injuries and deaths of outdoor cats, because I didn't see anything quoted anywhere to be able to determine just how dangerous it is.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

I have had cat/s pretty much all my life but since they were outside cats, they didn't ever usually make it past 2 years of age. One in particular that made me decide to never have an outdoor cat again was 'Serenity'. I was about 16 and had just woke up and just KNEW something was wrong. We lived right on a very busy highway and there she was in the middle of the road, dead.

Mr. Blue is our very large Kingly Cat and he is only an indoors cat. He behaves more like a dog than a cat at times since he waits for us at the door when we get home and he puts his paws up on my lap and waits for an invitation before he hauls himself onto my lap. He plays chase with the kids. He is fed a catfood that I was told, would be best for him since he has been fixed.

I will never have an outdoor pet solely on the basis that it is sort of cruel to know you may or may not have that same pet at the end of the day.

Rabies are running rampant in out area right now and even if the pet is vaccinated, you run the risk of it being attacked.

My husband's brother's dog makes a joyful habit of feeding upon new stray kittens or cats slow enough to get caught.

I have seen first hand all the stuff that happens to an animal out of doors (dogs too ) and I couldn't possibly in good conscious keep an animal I loved as a pet, outside. No way.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

I looked all over the place for such a statistic last night, Cory, and I couldn't find one other than the one that Jen rejected as being not sufficiently scientific (that was the Humane Society statistic regarding relative life expectancie: 2-3 years for an outdoor cat, 12- 15 for an indoor cat). What I did find was that every animal welfare group, veterinary association, wildlife group, and pet adoption agency strongly recommends (or requires) that cats be kept inside, and that the list of dangers includes not only cars, but diseases, predation, malicious injury caused by people who don't like cats, parasitic problems, and trapping.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

Regarding Cane Toads, there is a short film and a book all about the damn things and how they took over part of Australia after being introduced to take care of a local pest which, it turned out, they don't even eat. These are fascinating and really worth checking out. The book and film are both called "Cane Toads - An Unnatural History".

Some Australians have taken to them as kind of a beloved state nuisance - some treat them as pets. Children are shown dressing them in doll clothes. Others try to run them over deliberately - they're all over the roads. The most disturbing image is that of a cane toad edevouring a mouse.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

Lizzie: we talked about this before on another thread (this one, although you have to scroll way down to the end). I think you were the one who asked the question that time, too. Bad breeding practices have more to do with long term genetic problems and overpopulation than with the specific conditions in which the dogs are kept. People who breed dogs for money (i.e., the breeders who sell to pet stores) are virtually never concerned with things like genetically linked health problems, or even temperament. They just want to produce as many little golden retrievers or dalmatians as they can, for profit.

There are already too many goddamned dogs and cats in the world; it is unconscionable to breed them for any reason other than for the good of the breed -- i.e., to protect and pass along desireable traits, weed out genetic ailments, etc. Breeding for money and money alone, while dogs and cats get euthanized by the thousands because no one wants them, is wrong, wrong, wrong, no matter how clean you keep your kennels.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

According to the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association (and this is in a phamphlet at the clinic, I couldn't find it online) the average lifespan of an indoor/outdoor or totally outdoor cat is 3 years, while the average for an indoor cat is 15 years. I would have faith in the humane society numbers as well. They know who keeps coming back every 2-3 years for a new cat...

*Wild* animals, as in *non domestic*, that are kept in zoos need not even be considered in a *pet* owner responsibility debate. However if you would like to discuss that as well Cory, I am game.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

I just wanted to chime in and say I have 2 cats in a third story apartment. I often open the patio door for them to go outside but they just don't want to! It's nice out, it's sunny, come out here and chase bugs and watch birds and squirrels and people and roll around on your back. Hardly ever happens. These cats have been indoor/outdoor and then indoor and then indoor/outdoor and now back to indoor cats. They really don't give a hoot about being outside.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

>>In fact, those wild animal rescue places may very will nurse an animal back to health, release it into the wild, where it may die from natural causes in a very short time. But the length of their life wasn't the point, it was the quality. Or else, simply keep them in the rescue center. And I do believe they care about their animals.<<

This isn't entirely true, tho I wish it was. Many wild animals don't make it in spite of the valiant efforts of rescuers. Deer, for example, will usually die of shock/fright if they're forced to remain in proximity to humans. They are truly wild in that--a young fawn may survive, but its long term prognosis isn't good. Deer are petrified of humans; I've seen them scramble away on exposed bones. It's really sad that the only truly humane thing to do is shoot them.

I've handled deer, skunks, opossums, raccoons, red fox, bats, snakes, feral cats, feral dogs, coyote pups, and the infants of most of the above. I've also worked with many, many breeds of birds. At best, I think you can say "It depends" with regard to the animals being rehabbed enough to be released. I've done it a couple of times, but more often than not, the animals are so injured/sick/diseased that there isn't a lot to be done. Unless a clinic is getting private funding, there isn't a lot of public support for rehabbing wildlife. It's sad; we continue to encroach on their environments and they have to adapt...and ultimately they end up worse for it.

Most rescue centers make every effort NOT to keep the wildlife because it truly is wild and suffers for having to live in a cage. One of the saddest things I've ever seen was a caged cougar. She had been seriously injured and would probably never be able to be released, but the rehabbers wanted to keep her. She looked utterly pitiful and yowled incessantly. IMHO, her life had been pretty marginalized and she would have ultimately been better off euthanized. Wild critters are meant to be free. Domestics are not. But Cory's right in that the rehabbers do seem to really care about the animals.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

Here's my 2 cents on some of these issues:

Inside/outside...I suppose it is possible to humanely keep your dog outside, but it seems like so much work! First you'd have to have a fence (tying a dog outside is not, IMHO, humane), then a covered shelter and a soft place for it to sleep, the weather couldn't be too extreme. Then the fleas and such would have to be dealt with, much more so than if your dog lived indoors. Of course the dog is a sociable creature so you'd have to go out in the yard many times during the day to play and talk to it. And the feeding...so much easier to do it indoors where there is soap and hot water to clean the bowls and whatnot. And that leads to the cleanliness issue, and we all know indoor dogs stay cleaner. So I say, keep the dog inside. But then that's a lazy person's point of view.

Bones...I don't give them to my dogs, but I do believe they are the best thing for teeth cleaning. My 12-year old poodle has had half of her teeth removed because of decay. Now, of course, they tell you to brush the dogs' teeth. Bones would be much easier and "natural", and I know of many "experts" (Great Dane) that feed a completely natural diet consisting of raw chicken, bones and all. For the sake of "natural". I understand their logic, but it also seems logical that in our fumbling attempts to domesticate dogs (and cats) we have bred out many natural features, one of them being their ability to digest raw meat and bones. So I don't. I'm cheap, anyway, and don't want the trauma and expense of surgery for a punctured intestine.

The question of whether or not the animals think we are "mean" for not letting them run free...No. I don't believe they perceive things the same way we do. We train dogs to do lots of stuff that, in their natural state, they wouldn't dream of. Some of it's cute, other things are for their own protection. To them, that's just the *way things are*. They love us and love to please us. We've always let Jake (the Great Dane) sleep on our bed when we're not in it, but recently I tired of sleeping with dog hair, so I taught him not to get on the bed, ever. My husband said it was "mean", but it took Jake about three days before he understood, and now it's just one of those "that's the way things are" type of things. Never mind that the poodle can get up there...she can sit in our laps, too, but he can't. And hell, he has not one, but two designated love seats that are his alone.

I digress...I think that cats are the perfect indoor pet, that they are in danger outside whether it be man-made danger or otherwise, and for their sake we ought to keep 'em in. They are naturally comfort- loving creatures anyway, ever see a cat sleeping under a dryer vent on the outside of a house?

Bottom line: we domesticated these animals and in doing so we took away many of their defenses to live in the wild. And the "wild" ain't what it used to be, anyway. Sure they've given up their freedom, but hopefully we give them health, food and water, and lots of love and loyalty in exchange. I know my two dogs live like royalty, at least from a human point of view. And honestly, they don't know any other way.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

thanks Cathy, and interesting info Gena

Probably, I would ask -- how does it break down -- what areas and conditions were the cats coming from, and that sort of thing.

My parents cat, I know lived at least 9 years going outside. (maybe longer) But we had a big yard, and the furthermost she would go was into the nearest neighbor's yard. When I look at the area where some friends live (there is very little yard space and the houses are close together) Our old cat would easily invade 3 yards on either side traversing the same distance. (I suppose this could easily translate into multiple risk factors)

Furthermore, though we lived near a road, which the cat sometimes crossed -- traffic was about 1 car maybe every 15 minutes. (this is the suburbs) Frankly, I can't recall seeing any of the pets in the neighborhood squashed in our roadway. (could have happened, and probably did, I just don't remember an instance growing up)

Right now, I have a downstairs neighbor who lets her 2 cats out every day in the morning. They are now at least 5 years old.

But see, this is only my personal experience, and I simply can't relate where we've lost a cat at the average of 2-3 years.

So anyway, that's about all I have to say I think.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

Jen, if you truly believe that cats are much happier in their natural environment, then your arguement is pointless. If you want the cat to live in the wild, then don't keep it as a pet. Letting the cat live partially inside and partially outside (roaming free) is truly the most selfish of choices, because it diminishes the cat's hunting/fighting skills and resistance to the elements, making it more likely to suffer or die prematurely (a victim of its domestication), while you gain from its companionship.

The debate over where a cat is happiest seems silly. Many humans seem pretty happy in their warm William-Sonoma decorated homes, basking in the glow of their computer monitors, as they gobble down Ben and Jerry's. Last time I checked, none of this stuff grows on trees. It's a matter of personal preference, and past experience. I think this applies to cats too, to some degree.

I would suggest that your feeling that a cat is happiest outside is linked to your own love of the outdoors.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

My beloved cat Getty--an outdoor cat for her entire life--died last year at the age of 19. So maybe it has more to do with the intelligence of the cat. If it is going to run in front of cars, keep it inside, by all means.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

>Jen, if you truly believe that cats are much happier in their
>natural environment, then your arguement is pointless. If you
want the cat to live in the wild, then don't keep it as a pet. That is absolutely not what I have said. My determination as to what my pets preferred was based on what they chose to do, which was to spend part of their time outside, and part of their time inside where they were provided with food, water, etc. I realize that my point is a subtle one, but I don't know how I can explain it any more clearly than I already have, so I'm going to duck out of this topic now.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

I noticed this posting and just had to share my most recent experience...

My son and his girlfriend are currently staying in my home, (ages 21 and 19). When they moved in, they brought their un-spayed kitten, Clover, with them. I have four cats; three boys and one girl. I love them dearly and they are all fixed so as not to have or create more cats. Their food and vet bills are not inexpensive but because I chose to have these animals I feel it is my responsibility to take care of them... not to mention my deep love for all of them.

Yesterday, as I opened the door to house to walk in after work, Clover escaped. She is in heat and looking for a mate. I did my very best to try and catch her, but I could not. She is very skiddish and she won't come to me inside, much less outside. I called my son's girlfriend at work to let her know what had happened, and her remark was "Oh well, there is nothing you can do and I can't come home."

I heard and saw her at the edges of the yard with all the neighborhood strays. I know what the inevitable outcome of all this is. So, I thought I did the right thing by telling my son's girlfriend it was time to take Clover to the vet for a spay/abortion. She told me "she didn't believe in it." I told her no more kittens and she said she knew she could find homes for them.

Today, I told my son's girlfriend exactly what I meant when I said no more kittens. And she is angry at me and blaming me because her un- spayed cat got out and got with a male.

Her ultimatum is to either a)spay/abort Clover; b)place Clover with someone responsible to do same or take full responsibility for her or c) move out with her cat and potential kittens.

I am feeling a bit like the bad guy here. Any thoughts from other animal lovers out there? Maybe I just need a new perspective here. I think it is a terrible thing to make Clover have these kittens.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

I have a relatively small house (1200 square foot), which I share with my SO, two labs, and two cats. The labs are indoor/outdoor. We have a fenced yard (specifically built for them) and they are outside during the day only when it is nice. When there is a hint of rain, or too hot, or gloomy, or cold, they stay indoors when we go to work. On nice days, they are outdoors because they do prefer it.

My cats are strickly indoors. Sabrina, I had to trap to catch when she was about 6 months old. Someone abandoned her in my court. I guess they saw other cats and felt she would get adopted. But noone could catch her. I rented and set traps for her when she went into heat and a dozen or so feral males showed up in my neighborhood and started mating with her. After trapping her, she went straight to the vet to get a kitty abortion/spay. She has been with me ever since, about 8 years now. She has NO desire to go outdoors. If the door is open, she will look out and walk away. I guess she feels "Been there, done that, no desire to go back." My male cat, Vincent, I got as a kitten from a friend who allowed her female to get pregnant. My husband at the time, now an ex, did not want animals in the house, so after fighting a lot, Vincent became an outdoor cat. He was a great outdoor cat because he always came when called. But I very quickly got tired of the vet visits for bites which absessed, torn ears, limps, etc. He was fixed, but no one bother to tell him. I guess his nickname isn't "Butthead" for nothing. He was very territorial and would fight anything and everybody, size didn't matter. He also loved cars, getting in them, sitting on them. The straw that broke the camels back was when I came home from work one evening and he was lying by the back door, and when I called him he didn't get up. I tried to pick him up and he screamed. I had never heard a cat scream until then. I asked my then lazy-assed husband (who was without a job at the time) how long Vincent had been lying by the back door. Oh, since about 2:00. It was now about 7:00pm. I called my vet who told me to come immediately and pushed a box lid underneath Vincent and drove like an insane woman. $1500 dollars later, 5 pins in a back leg, 4 months in a very small dog cage, and Vincent was as good as new! He had been hit by a car. The xray for his back leg looked like a crushed up bag of potato chips. You know, the bottom of the bag that you throw away because they are too small to be worth eating?

Needless to say, my ex became an ex soon after that. Not just for that, but that was just one more thing. But that's a whole other forum in itself!

Vincent still wants to go outdoors. But I don't feel cruel not letting him. He only wants out because that was what he was used to. He is definitely not in any pain or deprived being indoors. And my vet bills are sure a whole lot smaller since I started the indoor only policy. And he's a whole lot healthier.

And if you don't like to clean the litter box, invest in a Littermaid automatic one. They are wonderful and so worth the $$!!

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

Speaking of LitterMaids, does anyone with multiple cats use them? We have five cats, and I wonder if it would be worth my while to invest. Opinions, anyone?

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

Ola,

You haven't done anything wrong. The cat would have eventually escaped anyway because that drive to mate is stronger than anything. How old is Clover? If she's still a young cat herself, it would be in her best interests to get spayed. A young cat having kittens can run into complications. Cathy, can you add anything in this department?

With regard to your son's g-friend--her "not believing" in it is a pretty dumb reason to not get the cat spayed. Her belief system is a bit screwy if it's okay with her to let her cat breed while other young cats die. Lay down the law and stick with it; she'll have to cave in. Yeah, things are uncomfortable, but she brought this on herself. The other option is to take the cat to the vet yourself, deal with the spaying, and speak to your son and/or girlfriend about being reimbursed. No matter what happens, it sounds like your relationship with her is going to be a little weird from here on out anyway. In any case, good luck.

I think this is a classic example of the irresponsible pet owner we've been talking about. Grrrr!

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

Ola I agree with Gena and you should get that poor cat into your vet ASAP to be spayed. I would also advise you to keep her away from your indoor cats as in all probability she has been in very close contact with disease carrying strays.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

Ola - it seems to me that you are being very responsible here, in laying down the law. I wish more people would do so....all of our pets are rescued animals, and spaying/neutering should be required of housepets.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

Beth, I remember the discussion about puppy mills before, but it wasn't that clear to me then either.

I think the breeders aren't totally responsible - lots of people want dogs of a particular breed, for many reasons. Not just snobbery - you know what size it's going to be and have some clue about what its temperment might be. And everybody wants a puppy or a kitten, not an older animal. So yeah, I agree, there are great dogs out there that need homes because people are going to breeders instead, but I'm not sure the breeders are to blame, or what to do about it.

I'ave always gotten older cats and taken in cats that people needed to find new homes for, and it's worked out great.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

Robyn,

My brother's girlfriend actually gave me her LitterMaid because she has adopted (literally) about a dozen cats and the LitterMaid couldn't keep up. That one eventually broke on me and the new one I bought has a stronger motor, so it might work better for more cats. I also think they have a bigger box for larger cats, and it might be designed for multiple cats as well. I still check mine all the time to make sure it's working and that the tray doesn't need emptied, but I rarely have to scoop anymore. Hopefully someone with more then 2 cats will write in and give you some better info.

By the way (to everyone, not just Robyn), her house is smaller then mine and she has at least 12 cats, a large pit bull/boxer mix that she rescued, and my brother living there. And you don't ever smell litter box/cat pee/dog/etc in her house. I think a lot depends on how often you clean the box(es) and your house/apartment as to how it smells with animals around. I know she sounds like strange cat woman, but she really isn't. She just can't stand to see an animal hurt or hungry so adopts everything that gets dumped around her house, gets them fixed and up to proper weight, and then tries to find homes for them. Not always an easy task. In fact, if anyone in the Bay Area of California is looking for a cat...

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

We have 5 cats and a LitterMaid and I have to say, that letting my mother-in-law give it to us was one of the worst things we've ever agreed to.

The thing is noisy and it often gets stuck if the clumps are bigger than a certain size, or not completely dry.

Furthermore, it's easier to forget to check the LitterMaid if you're not cleaning the box every day. With the automatic box you only need to check once a week, but if you're forgetful, I'd skip on it and stick to conscientiously checking the kitty box every day.

The other problem I have with the litter maid is the catch-all boxes. They're not recyclable, but they're not really sturdy enough to re-use (I've cracked a few over the months that we had the box in action.) and hence you have to buy new ones every so often and they're not all that cheap. I've been thinking of maybe trying some alternatives to the catch-all boxes -- like maybe a plastic bag or a paper bag cut down to fit into the area where the box goes.

My ideal would be to toilet train my horde -- but I don't know how I'd go about training _multiple_ cats to use the toilet. We had Shara halfway there before she had the kittens per the instructions on Karawynn's site, but when the babies were born, she wasn't exactly in the mood to learn a new way to pee.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

>>>My feeling on the debate is that most cats probably don't care if they live for 8 years or for 15 years, so if you truly have the cat's best interest in mind, you might as well let them do what they want.<<<

Three year old children don't care if they live for 8 or 15 years either, but we don't let them out the front door unsupervised just because it's what they "want." I'm with Beth. We are their custodians, their caretakers, and we *owe* them decent, humane care and protection. I'm an indoors-only cat owner. I live alone and work during the day, so I have always kept two cats so that they have some companionship. They are very healthy, content kitties.

My former neighbor had an outdoor cat. She thought keeping a cat indoors was cruel. He contracted feline leukemia, but since she attributed his lethargy and lack of appetite to advancing age (he was 14), she did not have him seen until he was nearly gone. All that time, I did not know he was sick. We swapped cat-sitting often, and just before she finally took him to the vet, I took care of him for a week, having him drool and lay all over me for at least an hour each day when I visited (I'd never seen a drooly cat before, but there ya go). Anyway, short story long, I found out from my vet that I could very easily have exposed my cats to her cat's disease, and she might have done the same when coming here to care for mine. I never took her on about it, I mean she had lost her long-time cat friend, but I was infuriated. Her act of "compassion" in letting her cat roam free got him sick and killed him, and put mine in terrible danger. I keep my cats' shots up to date, and had them tested several times after that incident, so hopefully we're in the clear after several years.

I did talk to her about indoors vs. outdoors, though, much later. She now lives in a big house in a rural area and has two new cats who are both indoors only.

Just my two cents' worth!

-- Anonymous, April 28, 2000

I agree with you on the plastic containers for the LitterMaid. They aren't cheap to buy, and they are designed to break after a short period of time. I line mine with plastic grocery bags. I pull the tray out and put the bag in with the handles over the sides of the tray. I can usually pull the bag out and tie the handles to dispose without having to pull the tray out. This works much better for me, and I've probably used only 4 trays in about a year. Eventually they just crack or give out after pulling them out to put a bag around them, but they last a lot longer then just emptying the tray.

The box noise I rarely hear anymore. My box is in a different room, so I only pay attention when I hear it going more then once. That usually means it requires my attention. But to me it's kind of like a cuckoo clock, after a while, you don't hear it. It would probably bother me if it was in the same room, though.

I'm anal too, I still check the box every day. Just to make sure. But I usually only have to replace the bag once or twice a week, and I used to clean it at least once a day, so to me that's a great improvement. I'd love to toilet train them, but then I'd have to leave the toilet seat up and then the dogs would have their heads in there fishing, and that just wouldn't work because it would make me sick. My dogs love to give kisses. That would definitely be the way to go if you didn't have large dogs, though.

-- Anonymous, April 28, 2000

I have an indoor only cat named Neeko. He is 100% completely insane. However I don't think thats from being indoors only. I used to let him outside on a sort of leash, but he's a little devil and got free, so now he's stuck inside. I don't think he knows that he is stuck though. He thoroughly enjoys running around in the basement, the attic..sitting on top of the finch's (is that how you spell finch? the little birds?) and watching them.

He would probably love to go outdoors, but I live too close to a busy road. I don't think he'd survive long at all.

While people may not feel that comparing cats to children is valid..I think it is, to a degree. Children don't understand right, wrong, death, danger, and neither do cats. Thats why it is safer for where I live, for him to be indoors. When I was a kid, I had a grand old time playing on the roof of our house. I was quite happy up there. My mother about had a heart attack when she figure out I could get up there, though, and never let me up there again. Should she have let me up there, just because I would be happier? No. Should I let Neeko out of my house where he can get hit by a car, beat up, kill things (he's quite a hunter) just because he'd be happier? No.

Is your cat safer indoors? Yes. I would think the discussion would end on that note right there.

-- Anonymous, April 28, 2000