If God created the all from the nothing, and there is nothing that is not god, and if God gave man "free" will to decide his own fate, then that will is part of God, having come from the source.

Can anyone tell me how to get out of the circular argument that God created man, god gave man free will, free will is from god, therefore it is not truly free will?

We cannot do anything, make any choice, without it being part of God. If we are made from God, there is nothing we can do that is not God.

The only logical way for man to truly have free will is if there was part of his mental faculty that is not of God. Do you see the problem?

Help me out here.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 25, 2000

Answers

For me there is no God. God is just a very fancy security blanket for people who need a simple plan. I accept that matter organizes itself into life with no divine intervention, the ultimate act of free will so to speak.

With no entanglement of God... free will can exist by itself as the naturally beautiful thing that it is.

To me, free will is the very essence of life, love and hate, good and bad, life and death, to choose or not.

-- Will (righthere@home.now), April 25, 2000.

Let's see..... God is Good... he see's all and is all...... everything that happens is seen by God and is allowed by God, it is his will.... his will be done.

Looking at the world as a whole, can anyone of you prove to me that God is good?

As far as free will goes.... if there is a God... he has a funny sense of humor, or we really are on our own :-)

-- Netghost (ng@no.yr), April 25, 2000.

FS:

I wish you wouldn't ask questions like this late at night when I'm supposed to be going off to bed :^)

I can remember having this very same discussion with the nuns during a sixth grade religion class. After the paddling, it was clear to me that this was not a subject open to rational debate.

-- Jim Cooke (JJCooke@yahoo.com), April 25, 2000.

Future Shock,

I think you know the answer to that one. Weren't you the one who said you have read "Conversations with God"?

We ARE God, experiencing Herself/Himself in the physical world. Having taken our spiritual essence and moved into a physical existence means that we still have to learn, or more accurately, "remember" who we are. We DO have the same free will as God, which is the freedom to do anything and everything we wish. It's just that we are in the process of re-discovering this, so we explore all of our choices before we eventually know which ones will give us the highest experience.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 25, 2000.

FutureShock,

Why not just ask if God can make a rock so big he can't lift it, if you want a brain-teaser? Anyway, you said,

If God created the all from the nothing, and there is nothing that is not god

The latter half of your statement is open to debate. Do you know for a fact that God *couldn't* create something distinct from himself? If not, why couldn't God create beings that have free will?

We'll find out someday, probably sooner than we'd like,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 25, 2000.

Hawk:

Yes-I was the one who read conversations with god and I DO know the answer satisfactory to me. I wanted to see how others thought and felt about the issue, so I am asking the questions rhetorically.

Jim:

You gave me the first laugh of the day. Hope the paddle didn't hurt too much.

Frank:

You above all are going to love what I am going to say next-There are no WRONG choices-God allows all so that we can experience who we are and to become the highest vision of ourselves we wish to be. We are here to remember who we are.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 25, 2000.

"The latter half of your statement is open to debate. Do you know for a fact that God *couldn't* create something distinct from himself? If not, why couldn't God create beings that have free will?" Frank

But the Christian tenet is that man is created in the image of God.

"There are no WRONG choices-God allows all so that we can experience who we are and to become the highest vision of ourselves we wish to be. We are here to remember who we are." FS

You and Frank are starting to sound like Pantheists ;-)

-- Ann A. Lyze (@ .), April 25, 2000.

LOL Jim, I remember at that age having the same discussion with a priest. He tried to convince me but to no avail. I've come to my own conclusions on this one. We have free will to choose any path but fate is the path we should choose (from the heart). If we don't go with our destiny, then we reincarnate to do it again and get it right. Sounds too weird, I know.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), April 25, 2000.

Ann:

Make no mistake, Frank is a christian, and that is cool with me. He has very definite beliefs about morality based on his christianity, and he give great importance to a pavlovian theory of behavior, to wit, that eternal punishment is something to avoid, so if we believe in the christian tenets, and behave according to them, we avoid this punishment and hence behave in a satisfactory manner.

As for myself, My concept of God is open to debate every day-every day more is revealed. Some days I believe I a mass of flesh and bones and am an atheist-many days I am an agnostic, on other days I am sure of a personal relationship with God, tapping into it's strength-The only thing I am certain of, most of the time, is that there is a power greater than myself, that on many occassions has done for me what I could not do for myself(Or so I thought)-I have found that I can change my reality by tapping into the source of power.

There is only love and fear. These two principles are the only ones we operate from when making choices. Consistently making choices motivated by love brings peace to my love and the lives of others.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 25, 2000.

Future

Why is it that this entire subject troubles you so?

Could it be that God is trying to draw you to Him? He knows your doubts and fears and imperfections, but loves and accepts you anyway.

Don't fight it off. Just go with it.

-- someone (who@believes.inHim), April 25, 2000.

Someone:

I am not troubled by the topic. I am a student of human nature and I learn more about you and myself in the process of asking these questions.

I have answered the call of my god. I am a recovering alcoholic and provide services to other recovering alcoholics-If I have a calling, that is it. I struggle just like anyone else on the spiritual path and I believe in the saying that any path which is easy does not lead to truth.

I try to understand fundamentalists of all stripes; I was a fundamentalist in another 12 step program in the late 80's-It was my way or the highway. Eventually that self-righteousness led to a relapse which almost killed me. Therefore, anything I can learn about how a fundamentalist thinks can be of use to me.

Fundamentalism. objectively, is not bad. It serves many quite well. For me, I have to avoid it.

So to answer your question, I KNOW God is calling me-he talks to me 24 hours a day and I am never seperate from him. I just wanted to know how other people dealt with the paradox.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 25, 2000.

Big Smiles ;0)

-- someone (who believes@in.Him), April 25, 2000.

FutureShock,

"Will" was the first answer to your post and his response answered your question perfectly. "Will" said for him there is NO God, which should prove to you we each have the free will to make that choice.

If man really wished to see something, he has to be physically present, rooted to reality as interpreted by his own senses of vision, hearing, smell, taste and touch. The uniqueness of man is the spiritual attribute which can allow us to rise above these physical limitations of the 5 senses.

Our problem today is one of our minds being flooded with false images of reality as presented by a worldview of increasing knowledge. We obtain this knowledge through our physical senses, not the spiritual. The apostle Paul described this time as "always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth". God is spirit and to know Him we must exercise the spiritual 'free will' within each of our lives, just as we make choises in our physical lives.

But I must warn you, spiritual awaking may bring about change! Jesus Himself said "to those on the outside everthing is said in parables so that,

"they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,

and ever hearing but never understanding;

otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!"

Tommy R....

-- Tommy Rogers (Been there@Just a Thought.com), April 25, 2000.

FS,

One of my dearest companions is in 'recovery from recovery'. {I think that your answer to your conundrum lays within that Gordian knot as well}.

Many times in my life I've wondered why she's had to travel along certain paths, and to me at this time it seems that it has only made her more valuable to those that she serves.

Other times I simply marvel at her having been like the Phoenix rising from the ashes.

Any idea how many folks might even make it to that stage?

-- flora (***@__._), April 25, 2000.

FS: God is the name we give to the mystery we always find as we drive our thoughts past the edge of our understanding.

We all touch that mystery. That is why I believe in God. But as soon as God is mentioned, you may be certain that the speaker is speaking of something of which he knows nothing.

I love knowledge and I love to learn a new thing. But I feel I am indescribably lucky when I go and visit the depth of my ignorance. Gazing at the profound depth of my ignorance is the closest I can come to seeing the face of God.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), April 25, 2000.

Flora:

There are many fanatics in 12 step programs, many Fundamentalist(If it is in the Big Book it must be true) who live their life by the book. Their zeal is not that different than religious zeal-in fact it takes on a religious fervor in many cases. These folk make a bad name for all-that, and the fact that the court system is legally mandating offenders to attend meetings make 12 step programs an easy target for criticism.

I fully understand what your friend means; she must have been exposed to 12 step nazis and encountered resistance because she did not follow "The Way". God Bless her.

As far as how many people rise from the ashes, very very few. And it is very sad. There are many ways to recover; most find 12 steps to be an adequate answer. But the scourge of this obsessive-compulsive disorder is that it is so prone to relapse. There really is no "cure". I do not have any statistics, but I have seen many more people get high and drink again, than who stay sober.

Brian:

You never cease to amaze me with your insights. This one is an sbsolute gem:

"Gazing at the profound depth of my ignorance is the closest I can come to seeing the face of God"

Awesome, dude. I have never heard a more telling definition of humilty than that, and I have read a TON of books, and meditated and prayed for years. Your contributions on this forum are one of the reasons I "keep coming back".

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 25, 2000.

FS,

Forgive me, I have a hard time expressing myself in writing. She suffered from something akin to your aforementioned 'self- righteousness' {long before addictions - I might add } and if I had to put it in Biblical terms, I would say she suffered from a certain vanity, too.

The 12 step program saved her life, but she had to reclaim her life from the architecture of the program. I'm sorry, I know this may not make sense to most - if any - of you.

-- flora (***@__._), April 25, 2000.

FS,

In rereading your post I thought of something that hadn't crossed my mind for many years. In high school I remember many a drug abuser who was 'saved' by substituting one addiction for another, and many times it was religion. {Sorry if I've offended anyone, I just had the urge to spit that out here on this thread}.

-- flora (***@__._), April 25, 2000.

OT flora here, with the last free thought for the day...

{First - I hope I didn't kill off your thread by getting too far afield}.

My mind wandered to some footage that a friend had shot of some whirling dervishes. Somehow I'd be interested in your your thoughts on the desire for altered states of conciousness, and the similarities and differences between the paths chosen and the resulting outcomes...

Or something like that...

{I'm still cogitating on the 'free will' thing}

-- flora (***@__._), April 25, 2000.

Flora:

Yes, you are right about substitute addictions. We know a new person is on his way out the door if he claims to have already established a relationship with God. We know this from experience. The whole idea of the 12 steps is to lead a recovering person to a union with the god of their understanding. Some try to take the evelyn wood version of this path and they crash and burn.

I fully understand about being rescued from the architecture of the program-I did this through a therapist, because after two years of sobriety I found myself responding to critical situations in the manner in which I thought the program told me to do. I had to find a mind of my own. Now I can use it as one tool among many. See www.aadeprogramming.com for more examples of people who were damaged by fundamentalist AA types.

BTW-All newly recovering people I have ever met are egoists with low self esteem :) !

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 25, 2000.

Ann A. Lyze,

I am? Well, they had to get SOMEthing right... ;-)

FutureShock,

Please don't be so quick to describe my beliefs for me. I don't believe that the avoidance of Hell is the reason to believe in God, but rather believe in God because I believe it to be true. And if avoiding Hell is a fringe benefit, why I'm "down with that".

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 25, 2000.

Free Will is OK but not as good as free beer.

-- (nemesis@awol.com), April 25, 2000.

FS, your input on recovering alcoholics is extremely interesting, thanks for sharing your insights and experience.

I have a hunch that your own success is largely due to your strong intellect, an opened mind and self-awareness, probably coupled with a strong motivation for a better life. Not everyone is blessed with those attributes.

From what you said of "AA fundamentalism" and having to "deprogram" yourself, it makes AA take on a aura of religion itself. Then it is logical to think that the AA fundamentalists "need" this religion to hold on to, as these people probably can't think for themselves as well as you do. Even the non-AA freethinkers among us have to work hard to "deprogram" ourselves from prior beliefs and indoctrination.

I too find what Brian said deep and right on the money. And I believe that to really understand what Brian said, one first needs to understand that one has been "programmed" by society since birth.

-- Ann A. Lyze (@ .), April 25, 2000.

If I am created in God's image, and I doubt that God exsists, does that mean that God has doubts about his own exsistence?

Why would I want to go to Heaven and spend eternity worshiping a God who's best effort resulted in humans? Especially if it means being surrounded by folks like Jerry Falwell?

Also, if God created us with a free will, and only those who do as he wishes get into Heaven, doesn't that mean that he ends up being surrounded by yes-men? And if what he wanted was to be surrounded by yes-men, why not just create a race of yes-men and avoid sending millions of souls into eternal torment?

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), April 26, 2000.

Unk, you said,

"If I am created in God's image, and I doubt that God exsists, does that mean that God has doubts about his own exsistence?

No, doesn't follow necessarily.

Why would I want to go to Heaven and spend eternity worshiping a God who's best effort resulted in humans? Especially if it means being surrounded by folks like Jerry Falwell?

On part "A", good point about the humans! But unfortunately, that's the way it is. And on point "B" what happens to J. Falwell is between him and God. Unfortunately we really can't assume anyone is going to Heaven, so you may be spared after all ;-)

Also, if God created us with a free will, and only those who do as he wishes get into Heaven, doesn't that mean that he ends up being surrounded by yes-men? And if what he wanted was to be surrounded by yes-men, why not just create a race of yes-men and avoid sending millions of souls into eternal torment?

NO. WHY God wants it this way is the big question, but He doesn't want yes-men, or like you say, He could have made them. He wants people to choose the right thing. Why? Go ask Him, but the answer was given to Job already, so you'll probably be disappointed. And again, we don't know how many, if any, (or all) people are going to Hell.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 26, 2000.

Frank:

As I almost always do on this forum, I apologize if I misinterpreted one of your posts.

Ann:

Thanks for the kind words. For some of us humans, a rigid belief system does not work. That is why I keep learning, and not pidgeon- holing my beliefs.

To all:

I start threads like this because they lead to incredible insights into how people think. This thread will go down in memory for me because of the remarkable things Brian said.

Thanks again, Brian.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 26, 2000.

If I am created in God's image, and I doubt that God exsists, does that mean that God has doubts about his own exsistence?

God doesn't think or doubt, God knows. God knows that God exists. Since you are created in God's image, you know that God exists, even within yourself, you just aren't aware of it yet. It is your thinking, or doubt, that is preventing you from becoming aware that you already know this..

Why would I want to go to Heaven and spend eternity worshiping a God who's best effort resulted in humans? Especially if it means being surrounded by folks like Jerry Falwell?

God does not need to be worshipped. Humans are perfect, we are part of God. We can choose to experience anything, everything, or nothing that we wish, because God is all of this, and we have perfect free will. Jerry Falwell is a part of all of us, because together we are all one with God. God allows us to choose any experience, and we chose to experience Jerry Falwell, in fact we created him. We've all created each other. We created Adolph Hitler, Plato, Elvis Presley, JFK, Jeffrey Dahmer, and on, and on.

Also, if God created us with a free will, and only those who do as he wishes get into Heaven, doesn't that mean that he ends up being surrounded by yes-men? And if what he wanted was to be surrounded by yes-men, why not just create a race of yes-men and avoid sending millions of souls into eternal torment?

God wants us to do as we wish, so by doing as we wish, we are doing what He wishes. If we do what we wish, we experience heaven. Adolph Hitler went to heaven by killing 6 million people, because he did what he wished, and what we wished him to do. God does not want to be surrounded by yes-men, just men who do what they wish, even if they want to be no-men. God does not send souls to eternal torment, he gives souls choice. If a soul wants to live in torment, it will create a torment for itself to live in.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 26, 2000.

Hawk,

Groovy baby! So I can shag my way to heaven, the more the better? Yeah baby! That is too good a deal!! But what do I do about Mrs D, and her fine shooting ability?

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), April 26, 2000.

Frank,

NO. WHY God wants it this way is the big question, but He doesn't want yes-men, or like you say, He could have made them. He wants people to choose the right thing. Why? Go ask Him, but the answer was given to Job already, so you'll probably be disappointed.

So if He wants us to chose the right thing why is it that He has not done anything lately to convince the doubters? It has been two thousand years since he has done any big shows, you know, like letting folks part seas, swim around inside whales, and turn into pillars of salt sort of stuff.

I forget the exact numbers but the world population is MANY times what it was 2000 years ago. Instead of millions of people there are now billions of us. It seems to me that he doesn't like us very much, since he is allowing the vast population of his creation to incorrectly chose the path to hell. Oh sure, there is a book written by men that has convinced a lot of people that following Jesus is the thing that gets you into Heaven, but there are also other books that have convinced a lot of people that Islam etc are the right way, and a lot of folks think it is all bunk and there is no God.

If He cared enough to show those folks back then his power in order that they could see the light, why doesn't he like us now? Is it my breath?

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), April 26, 2000.

Unc,

I'd tell the old lady to chill, because she can shag too. If she doesn't want to let you do what you want, leave. If she still shoots you, you will no longer doubt that God exists, and you will no longer be bothered by that nasty case of hemmoroids. :-)

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 26, 2000.

"I struggle just like anyone else on the spiritual path and I believe in the saying that any path which is easy does not lead to truth. " --Future Shock

The fundamental view of TAO as told by Lao Tzu or Sosan is that "easy is right and right is easy".

"The only logical way for man to truly have free will is if there was part of his mental faculty that is not of God. Do you see the problem?" --Future Shock

The Taoists saw all changes in nature as manifestations of the dynamic interplay between the polar opposites yin and yang, and thus they came to believe that ANY PAIR OF OPPOSITES constitutes a polar relationship where each of the two poles is dynamically linked to the other. For the Western mind, this idea of the implicit unity of all opposites is extremely difficult to accept. It seems most paradoxical to us that experiences and values which we had always believed to be contrary should be, after all, aspects of the same thing. In the East, however, it has always been considered as essential for attaining enlightment to go "beyond earthly opposites", and in China the polar relationship of all opposites lies at the very basis of Taoist thought.

Chuany Tzu says: "The "this" is also "that". The "that" is also "this" ... That the "that" and the "this" cease to be opposites is the very essence of Tao. (or of God) Only this essence, an axis as it were, is the centre of the circle..."

This is the way of life of the sage who has reached a higher point of view, a perspective from which the relativity and polar relationship of all opposites are clearly perceived.

"Can anyone tell me how to get out of the circular argument that God created man, god gave man free will, free will is from god, therefore it is not truly free will?" --Future Shock

Can it be said that in the evolution of our consciousness FREE WILL and NON-FREE WILL will cease to been seen as opposites? That we will gain the perspective of the circle?

Future Shock ... maybe by seeing the "circular argument" you are already beginning to perceive the circle?

Just some thoughts.

Liken this to the energy of Gemini, the twins. Most people will only perceive one twin or the other, some will perceive both but wonder who Gemini really is. Gemini will know that he/she is whole only as one twin relates to the other.

-- Debra (circleof@thoughts.com), April 26, 2000.

that's Chuang Tzu.

-- Debra (circleof@thoughts.com), April 26, 2000.

Hawk said:

"God wants us to do as we wish,..."

Can you then explain all that 'stuff' God says in the Bible please? If you could start from the ten commandments and work forward from there it would be appreciated.

Thanks!

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), April 26, 2000.

The Bible is mostly propaganda from the earliest spin doctors, religious despots. The ten commandments are a lie manufactured by hypocritical power-hungry control freaks, God never said that.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 26, 2000.

Hawk

"The Bible is mostly propaganda..."

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,...

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), April 26, 2000.

If there are enough people that put faith in words in the Bible, and they believe these prophecies will happen, then they will actually cause them to become the reality that we experience. The mass consciousness is the dominant force in the universe, and thus dictates our experience.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 26, 2000.

Debra:

The real way then is neither the hard or the easy way, put contains both. You are right, I have begun to see the circle, and it is only in the last few years that I have seen the principles of yin/yang in operation and have been able to reconcile the paradoxes. Interesting you should mention gemini-you may remember from another thread that I am a Gemini Ascendent.

AInt:

While I appreciate your input, I ask kindly that you do not help turn this thread into another version of "The Christian view vs Everyone else who is wrong".

The question I posted was a philosophical/rhetorical question. It was not meant to start another controversy.

It is okay, however if you do not heed my request. THis is your forum, too, and I do not own this thread. I am just asking for your consideration.

Hawk:

are you REALLY Neil Donald Walsch?? You have such a deep understanding of the principles he wrote about, that it seems you could have written those books :) .

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 26, 2000.

"The mass consciousness is the dominant force in the universe, and thus dictates our experience."

Alright everone, cross your legs, put your index fingers and thumbs together and repeat after me....ahumm, ahumm.

Boy are you ever in for a big surprize.

-- Gomer Pyle (surprize, surprize@surprize.com), April 26, 2000.

FutureShock

"While I appreciate your input,..."

You may be uncomfortable with Christians but I fail to see what defending my view of God has to do with your attack on me here.

When someone makes a statement such as: "God wants us to do as we wish,..." you can bet I will always be there with my Judeo/Christian viewpoint to defend against a statement like that!

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), April 26, 2000.

FS,

Reading Walsch is the closet thing to The Truth that I have ever seen in print. When the reader is able to let go of everything they "think" they know, their soul will confirm for them that these are the things we "already know", on the purest, most undistorted level of our true existence.

Gomer,

You are living in a one-dimensional world. I think you're the one who will be suprised, and be sorry for what you were missing during your earthly existence.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 26, 2000.

I like the way "God" speaks of the Ten Commitments as compared to the Ten Commandments.

-- Debra (circleof@thoughts.com), April 26, 2000.

Ain't:

Please tell me what in these following sentences constitutes an attack:?

"AInt:

While I appreciate your input, I ask kindly that you do not help turn this thread into another version of "The Christian view vs Everyone else who is wrong".

The question I posted was a philosophical/rhetorical question. It was not meant to start another controversy.

It is okay, however if you do not heed my request. THis is your forum, too, and I do not own this thread. I am just asking for your consideration"

I thought I was very polite. I simply made a request. I do not want to debate you not here, not ever. If you would notice that on this thread as well as on my thread about the concept of time, there is very little of this "I am right, you are wrong" bickering.

We are simply students of metaphysics in the threads I have referred to, and again, I say you are welcome, but this is NOT about wether christianity is the way or not.

Gomer makes my point for me by chiming in(no offense, frank) and saying we are in for a big surprise.

How smug.

Debra:

I see you have read the books :) .

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 26, 2000.

FutureShock

"...do not help turn this thread into another version of "The Christian view vs Everyone else who is wrong"."

Loosely translated means: Leave your theology at the door (or) we gave at the office (or) we don't want 'your' kind here.

All in all not to difficult to understand where you come from.

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), April 26, 2000.

Ain't:

All I did was ask. I now have your answer. Your view is certainly welcome-BUT if that view tells me or anyone here they are going to hell for not agreeing with that you, then I will have a problem.

I in no way attacked you. I would hope that you would use that word more judiciously. I have seen attacks on this forum; I am usually not a part of them.

I am ending this little part of the thread. Aint, feel free to post to your heart's desire.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 26, 2000.

Then this oughta really blow your skirt up... : )

Imagine the entire universe laid out on a slide and our man God, (or whomever, you know the drill) is checking the progress of his experiment. What results is he looking for in this iteration of "Life Creation 401"? This experiment requires no outside interference, or any contamination like the last experiment, which got way out of hand. Does the data received from this sample jive with the "expected outcome"?

Inquiring minds want to know...

"Yeah that King James character really yakked up that book. Who did he think he was?" - Canine Chronicle

mesmerized by the little creature...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), April 26, 2000.

FutureShock said:

"...BUT if that view tells me or anyone here they are going to hell for not agreeing with that you, then I will have a problem."

The Bible is a dogmatic document. Jesus clearly states in John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE: no man cometh unto the Father, but by ME.

[and]

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), April 26, 2000.

Ain't Gonna Happen - I would highly encourage you to expand your scope and delve into the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Dead Sea Scrolls reveal that the life and times of Jesus portrayed in the Bible is second-hand and politically-biased information written years after his death by people who had never actually known him or witnessed his life. If you choose to base your beliefs on a work of fiction that's entirely your choice (had to fit the "Free Will" concept in here to stay true to the thread. ;-)

Keep in mind that the Dead Sea Scrolls are tangible historical documents that have been studied by biblical scholars for many decades and are considered by some to be the single most important archeological find of this Century.

FWIW

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), April 26, 2000.

aint:

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahah

I'll see you in hell

BTW-Who is the judge of wether or not one has successfully completed the actions in the verse you provided? How do you get around the problem of "judge not, lest ye be judged? How do you out of one corner of your mouth say God is all powerful, and then out of the other corner of your mouth say that a man, any man, can be the judge of another?

I said I was going to stay out of this, but sometimes ignorance just gets my ggggggggggggggggggggggoat.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 26, 2000.

FS,

I don't mind your *interpreting* my posts in any way you choose, I just don't care for people describing my beliefs for me. Believe me, I don't need other people's help putting my foot in my mouth. :-)

Uncle, You said,

So if He wants us to chose the right thing why is it that He has not done anything lately to convince the doubters?

Funny you should bring that up. I was talking to a Jewish co-worker some time ago, and he said is disbelief in Christianity was in part that it was *too much* intervention from God! I don't want to misquote him, as I really don't remember his exact reasoning, but I'd have to say from (my) Christian perspective, God doesn't need to do anything else because there's enough done to be *good enough* already.

Don't want to believe? That's o.k. by me. If you change your mind at some point, find a faithful community and see what you think. I do believe however, that if you ever DO want to look into Christianity, to do so accurately you should do it in a community setting.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 27, 2000.

FutureShock

"How do you get around the problem of "judge not, lest ye be judged?"

1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

"I'll see you in hell"

That is a trip you choose to make on your own. As a believer and follower of Jesus I will be with Him in Heaven.

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), April 27, 2000.

Aint,

How about "Do unto others..."?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 27, 2000.

"As a believer and follower of Jesus I will be with Him in Heaven."

My understanding of Jesus and Christianity is that humility is a required virtue to make it into heaven. How can you be so certain that you will be with him in Heaven? Could it not be conceited to believe that you will be at His side, and thus showing a lack of humility?

-- Ann A. Lyze (@ .), April 27, 2000.

Frank,

It's not that I don't want to believe, it's that there are SO many contradictions and unanswered questions that it makes it TOUGH to believe. When I believed in the Tooth Fairey at least there was evidence under my pillow the next morning.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), April 27, 2000.

Ann:

You make a point I have been making on a few threads. Any true student of any spiritual path is confronted with the issue of spiritual pride. Where one has spiritual pride they loss all humility. I have fancied myself to have reached many a mountaintop, only to take a precipitous fall.

Aint has not really responded to my question. He has not solved the paradox of judge not lest ye be judged.

I have one question-What source can I use to confirm that the Bible is the ultimate source? Another paradox. Oh well!

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 27, 2000.

Unk,

My story is that I was an agnostic for many years as a young man. My background is technical and it was very easy for me to see the world in mechanistic terms, but one day I woke up and instead of seeing what I now believe were the trees, saw the forest. Now my kids reinforce that belief for me.

That's why I say take your time. Earlier in my life NO ONE could have convinced me that the world was other than a big chemistry experiment. So if you can't believe now, fine. Later if you do, great.

For me I think it was really realizing the beauty of *awareness* of my life that made me one of the faithful, but for you? I don't know, but if you ever have a change of heart, please post to the forum!

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 28, 2000.

Unc, here is something for under your pillow, to sleep on...

What are the odds, that the single moon of the only planet in the universe with known life, would be the perfect size and at the perfect distance to form a perfect total eclipse of the sun?

Einstein once said...

"I, at any rate, am convinced that He [God] is not playing at dice."

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 28, 2000.

Uncle Deedah -

You said:

"It's not that I don't want to believe, it's that there are SO many contradictions and unanswered questions that it makes it TOUGH to believe."

Sounds like you just need a "jump start". What initially helped me was to realize that when people talked of God or the Universal Energy or Higher Consciousness or the Creative Energy, etc. they were talking of the same thing.

There is a series of books entitled "Conversations with God". The series contain books 1, 2 and 3 plus a 4th entitled "Friendship with God". If you read Book 1 I think you'll find enough insight to start addressing the contradictions and unanswered questions you have.

The back of Book 1 says:

the dialogue begins ... "I have heard the crying of your heart. I have seen the searching of your soul. I know how deeply you have desired the Truth. In pain have you called out for it, and in joy. Unendingly have you beseeched Me. Show Myself. Explain Myself. Reveal Myself.

I am doing so here, in terms so plain, you cannot misunderstand. In language so simple, you cannot be confused. In vocabulary so common, you cannot get lost in the verbiage."

I would love to hear your thoughts as you progress through the book.

Future Shock -

You seem to be our "official" moderator of philosophical threads. How about a dialogue, chapter by chapter, about the Conversations with God books? We wouldn't need a new thread for each chapter, rather you could keep the dialogue moving at the speed our thoughts warrant. I think this could be really interesting especially with the thoughts of Ain't, Frank, etc. included. AND ... it may provide that "bridge" needed by people like Uncle Deedah.

The first chapter could address to whom God communicates. Are there special people and special times? What is prayer?

LOL ... I'm not suggesting you take on much am I?

-- Debra (let's@communicate.com), April 28, 2000.

Debra:

I would be willing to do this. I have to dig out Book 1 over the weekend, but I WILL do it. Stay tuned.

Hawk:

THanks for your input.

Frank:

Thanks for your input also. We always disagree, but this would be boring if your view was not here.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 28, 2000.

Deb,

Deedah can speak for himself, but I think he doesn't need a bridge.

I'm going to digress here & tell a little story. I had an old friend who had been raised by his grandfather in the early 1900's in Poland. His grandfather was a rabbi, and was thought of as a hero because he's been responsible for saving many lives.

He told me that when he turned 9 years old he said to his grandfather 'I can't believe in a God who causes and allows such great suffering...'

"What matters most is not that you beieve in God, but that He believes in you" was his grandfathers reply.

-- flora (***@__._), April 28, 2000.

"I can't believe in a God who causes and allows such great suffering...'"

The irony of that statement is almost laughable. If you are willing to open your mind to discover the True nature of God, you will know that not only does God allow suffering, He also allows us to eliminate suffering, and live in the ultimate highest experience of total love without pain or fear. This is the power of our free will. It is all up to us, and it is as simple as changing our minds. We could end world hunger tomorrow if we simply agree to do it. God does not "dictate" our experience, as religions may lead us to believe. If we live in suffering, it is because we do not understand that God has given us total freedom to choose what we would like to experience.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 28, 2000.

Hey Hawk,

"It is all up to us, and it is as simple as changing our minds."

Why were the Polish people of my friend's time subjected to the fates that they were? Surely you don't mean that they were holding the 'wrong thoughts'.

-- flora (***@__._), April 28, 2000.

Come on now Hawk, this is just getting interesting...

If I follow your logic and surmise that {for instance} the Tibetan people have chosen their 'reality', I get kinda hung up on what is an appropriate response or opinion about their circumstances.

Help me...

{Feel free to reason about the Inquisition, or other meaty epochs if you prefer}.

-- flora (***@__._), April 28, 2000.

The human race is a whole, and the reality experienced by all of mankind is the reality which has been chosen by the majority of our thoughts, or the "mass consciousness". Hitler was allowed to do what he did because the mass consciousness had created a reality at that time which precipitated the proper conditions for his actions to become part of the reality we experienced. If we did not want 6 million Jews to be killed, we should have finished the creative process by allowing our thoughts to evolve into actions, instead of allowing fear to turn us into helpless bystanders. I imagine that either there were not enough people who cared, or not enough people who realized that we have the power to change the reality and the outcome that we experience.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 28, 2000.

Hi Hawk, flora, FutureShock, et. al.

So Hawk, this is where you've been all day! You abandoned the thread with your own name on it and went down to the corner to hang out with the philosophers! :)

Actually, it took centuries and a whole chain of falsehoods whose roots were in philosophy to bring a whole people (the Germans, as well as others) to the state of Hitler-worship. It goes all the way back to Plato, through Kant, Hegel and others where the main principles were the nobility of self-sacrifice of the individual, together with the totalitarian state being the collector of the sacrifices. This is an extremely complex, yet fascinating piece of history that's detailed in a book called "The Ominous Parallels" by Leonard Peikoff, and is the only book in existence that gives a comprehensive and complete answer as to why the Holocaust was allowed to take place. The book is recemmended by the Holocaust Memorial Museum. I could discuss some details, though, if you have questions.

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), April 28, 2000.

Hawk,

I think I can intellectually appreciate the concept of mass conciousness, but have a hard time reconciling it with simple human suffering.

{I'm churning around notions of challenges and conflicts between the spiritual and physical planes at the moment}.

eve,

Please, have at it if you can toss out tidbits that may have some application here...

-- flora (***@__._), April 28, 2000.

flora,

I don't get the "mass consciousness" thing either. I thought Hawk was referring to something along the lines of what I was...that the masses -- the people -- accepted certain tenets...but I say that they did so individually. The concept of a "mass consciousness" seems impossible to me.

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), April 28, 2000.

hey eve,

{I figure you would lay at least partial responsibility for the rise of Hitler on economic factors as well}.

I think he meant something akin the 'cosmic conciousness'...

Hard to apply in the material world-

-- flora (***@__._), April 28, 2000.

Mornin', flora,

If you're referring to the effects of the Great Depression, realize that all the industrial nations suffered the ravages of the Depression, while few turned to Nazism.

The Great Depression, in effect, was the thing that forced the issue, which was embedded all along in the German's philosophy. The economic catastrophe in Germany was actually an effect -- it was the last link in a long chain of ideas and events. It sure was something that worked easily in Hitler's favor, though, because the nation was already ripe for Hitler's brand of "cashing in" -- that is, taking advantage of the peoples' bad ideology/philosophy (ideas of self-sacrifice, taken to the extreme) that had sunken in deeply by the time he took power.

flora, look at the economic thing as akin to where someone long addicted to a toxic drug suffers sudden convulsions and then dies from them, we might validly say that the convulsions were the cause of death -- that is, so long as someone remembers the cause of the cause. Compare this to a country addicted to a toxic ideology, where the economic thing is the superficial cause, the underlying ideology being the real, ultimate cause. A connecting link here is the argument that parts of this same ideology actually spilled over and helped cause the Great Depression itself as well; but that's another very complicated chain to think through. The bottom line here is that the ideology/philosophy ultimately caused the whole thing.

All that being said, I really wouldn't want to take this thread off track from the fascinating discussions I've seen here so far. Maybe I shouldn't be talking about this too much here...

"Cosmic Consciousness?" Hmmm...I guess I need some more 'splainin' there.

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), April 29, 2000.

I may be putting words in Hawk's mouth, I was just trying to get a better feel for his position. 'Cosmic conciousness' is a concept I remember from long, long ago {like, maybe the early '70's - gasp!}. Maybe he'll come back & clarify things for us.

At the risk of getting further off track, I was referring to the Treaty at Versailles...Weimar Republic...yadda yadda...your philosophical aspect is well taken, though. Thanks.

-- flora (***@__._), April 29, 2000.

Hello again! I had a fairly lengthy explanation typed up last night and in attempting to submit my computer locked and I lost it. No matter, perhaps it was meant to be. Since these concepts can be somewhat "out there", maybe it is better to absorb them in small pieces. Let's start with this idea, reflect on it for a while, and then move on from there...

I like to think of the God consciousness in the universe as being very much like "The Force" in the Star Wars movies. All types of energies are available for us in this Force, or "power", to shape the reality that we experience, including the "dark side" used by Darth Vader. The "mass consciousness" is the part of these energies that mankind has chosen to focus on at any particular point in time, and it becomes the catalyst in the creative process, as our thoughts become actions, and our actions become the reality. Eve, I like your use of the word "idealogy", though I think it is really only the idealogy within our current mindset of what we perceive to be a very limited number of choices available to us. When we reach higher levels of awareness of our true power, we will know that everything is available to us.

So, what do you think so far?

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 29, 2000.

Even though we each have the ability to expand our consciousness and make different choices, the mass consciousness of all of humanity is the cumulative effect, or summation, of our thought energies. In this physical world it seems as though we can isolate ourselves, but at the deepest level of our true spiritual existence our experience is a shared one, as we are One with God. So, it is difficult to "break out" of the energies of the majority (currently focused on fears and our physical existence), until the majority of us work together to access our super-consciousness, and the spiritual energies of love available at this level.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 29, 2000.

WOW

Hawk, I like that. Thread is getting long though, perhaps time to do a continuance?

---consumer who vowed to stay out of this one....(smile)

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), April 29, 2000.

Hawk -

So God consciousness, Cosmic consciousness and The Force are all expressions for what we know as God. Mass consciousness is an expression for humanity's consciousness which is currently focused on fears and our physical existence but will one day achieve Cosmic consciousness, the consciousness of God.

Where do you place super-consciousness? Do you know it as the highest consciousness of man or as the consciousness of God?

-- Debra (??@??.com), April 29, 2000.

Hi Debra!

"Where do you place super-consciousness? Do you know it as the highest consciousness of man or as the consciousness of God?"

Good question. I know that you know the answer (a student of Walsch), in fact ALL of us know the answer. Many just aren't truly aware of it yet, or they find it hard to believe because they've been taught by religions that we are not worthy of such a thing.

The answer is of course, that they are the SAME consciousness. In a very real sense, We Are God. :-)

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 29, 2000.

Hello all.

I have been busy putting up shelves and other things domestic!

I would like to throw in something I read from another author, Napoleon Hill-He wrote a famous book called think and grow rich which is compulsory reading in many mba programs. "whatever the mind can conceive and believe it can achieve." Now if this is true at the individual level(I believe it is), then it is true at at the level of the masses. None of us are completely seperate from anyone else-we may have the appearance of seperate bodies, seperate minds, but we are all ensconced in the energy field of the whole. Mass consciousness, therefore, is the sum total of all the thoughts of sentient beings at any given time.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 29, 2000.

Good point FS! I didn't want to complicate the issue too much since humans have a lot of work to do on themselves, but the mass consciousness most certainly does include ALL of God's creation... the soil, the plants, the water, the air, the creatures, the stars, EVERYTHING! In fact, I believe that some of the extreme weather we have been seeing lately is a result of the violent negative energies being actualized by the human race. This might also go a long way to help explain some people who seemingly for no reason that they are aware of suddenly take a gun and start shooting people, and then say they weren't even aware of what they are doing. The influence of all of our negative energies is becoming overwhelming to some, and this is a reflection of how we all influence each other.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 29, 2000.

Many things in our world remain a mystery.

With just 11 short lines one of our most basic mysteries is solved here .

-- Debra (!!!!@!!!!.com), April 30, 2000.

Hawk,

you wrote:

"The human race is a whole, and the reality experienced by all of mankind is the reality which has been chosen by the majority of our thoughts, or the "mass consciousness"."

"All types of energies are available for us in this Force..."

I'm having a hard time reconciling the idea of 'free will', with your notion that 'mass conciousness' is a seemingly overwhelming force.

You're scaring me here:

"This might also go a long way to help explain some people who seemingly for no reason that they are aware of suddenly take a gun and start shooting people, and then say they weren't even aware of what they are doing."

I live in a state where a guy received light punishment after killing the mayor of San Francisco, due to the infamous 'twinkie defense'.

How does individual responsibility work in all this?

-- flora (***@__._), April 30, 2000.

Flora,

At this stage in the game, I don't necessarily advocate the "twinkie defense" either, but I think it will eventually become evident why some of these bizarre things are happening. Many more still will die and be sentenced to die, before we attain the level of consciousness to truly understand. Hitler is still alive and well, it's just that he has moved from the physical world to the spiritual world. It is up to us, if we want our reality in this physical world to change, to become less "evil", to choose our highest thoughts, and overpower the evil forces. God allows what we think of as "evil" because without it, we would not know what "good" was. "Without darkness, there would be no light." Without fear, there would be no love, because love is the elimination of fear, it's direct opposite.

We need to understand that all of the matter in our physical world is being "moved" by spiritual forces. Every action that we take is driven by our emotions, how we "feel" about something, and these emotions come from our spiritual essence, our "soul" as many like to call it. We don't get up every morning and go to work to make money, simply because our intellect tells us it is logical. Underneath all of the reasoning is still the "desire", because we know the money will allow us to live in comfort, and care for our children. These actions are coming from spiritual love.

Now, getting back to the idea of the force of the mass consciousness, causing events to occur in this world... I believe that the spiritual energies within the force are in a delicate state of balance between "evil" an "good" forces, but remember, this is only what we "perceive" to be good and evil, and our perception of these concepts is always changing. At times, we foster an environment for someone like Ghengis Khan or Hitler to rise up and dominate, then we later decide that perhaps that type of behavior was "too evil", it goes beyond the limits of what we would like to live with. The real problem is that we are RE-ACTING to what we DON"T want, instead of ACTING on what we DO want. In the meantime, the limits of evil are being re-defined, and we become desensitized as to what we are willing to accept, look the other way, and draw further into isolation within our physical world, rather than accessing our spiritual power for the answers. We are regressing. We need to be proactive instead of reactive.

There are a lot of spiritual energies out there that still influence us in an "evil" way. The secret to our God energy is that our power comes from UNITY. As seperate physical beings, we find it impossible to change the dominant energy in the universe by ourselves. But God tells us that We are One with Everything. When we believe that together we can define the reality we wish to experience, we can overpower the forces of evil. Those forces that are already operating completely in the spiritual world already know this, because they no longer have their physical bodies. We need to transcend the illusion that we are limited by our physical bodies, because our spiritual energy is still just as powerful. When we change the pathway of our consciousness from being focused on the physical, and advance into our spiritual consciousness, we will realize that we have the power to create Heaven on Earth. This is the sort of test that God has given us, in order to actually live out the experience of our spiritual power overcoming the physical, and finding our way back to God.

Often we feel that by ourselves, we will not make any difference, because we are most powerful when united, and we cannot change other people. That is sadly ironic, because we don't need to change other people, we only need to change ourselves. If each of us trusts our soul, and makes conscious decisions to act on our feelings, rather than fears about our physical possesions, we will be fulfilling our piece of the puzzle, and our energy will influence others as well. Eventually, as more people realize that each of us is part of a bigger force, our combined energy will allow us to consciously choose what reality we would like to experience.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 30, 2000.

Hawk-

Did you check into the Celestine Prophecy yet?

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 30, 2000.

Hi FS, no I haven't picked it up yet, but it is definitely on my list to read. Can you give us any hints, and is it similar to my ideas?

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 30, 2000.

Hawk:

I will print here the author's note to his book:

"For half a century now, a new consciousness has been entering the human world, a new awareness that can only be called transcendant, spiritual. If you find yourself reading this book , then perhaps you already sense what is happening, already feel it inside.

It begins with a heightened perception of how our lives move forward. We notice those chance events that occur at just the right moment, and bring forth just the right individuals, to suddenly send our lives into a new and important direction. Perhaps more than any other people in any other time, we intuit higher meaning in these mysterious happenings.

We know that life is really about a spiritual unfolding that is personal and enchanting-an unfolding that no science or philosophy or religion has yet fully clarified. And we know something else as well: we know that once we do understand what is happening, how to engage this allusive process and maximize its occurence in our lives, human society will take a quantum leap into a whole new way of life-one that realizes the best of our tradition-and creates a culture that has been the goal of history all along.

The following story is offered toward this new understanding. If it touches you, if it crystallizes something that you percieve in life, then pass on what you see to another-for I think our new awareness of the spiritual is expanding in exactly this way, no longer through hype or fad, but personally, through a kind of positive psychological contagion among people.

All that any of us have to do is suspend our doubts and distractions just long enough...and miraculously, this reality can be our own."

Food for thought.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 30, 2000.

Wow! That sounds excellent FS. Walsch was the one who really "woke me up" a few years ago, and now I feel as though I can see this process occurring right before my eyes, and hope others will get tuned in soon. I know all of us will eventually, but I'm anxious for us to get "there" as soon as possible! :-)

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 30, 2000.

FS:

"...a kind of positive psychological contagion among people."

Another 'meme'?

-- flora (***@__._), May 01, 2000.

Hi all,

I just got a chance to tune back in -- very interesting stuff, y'all!

It really looks like -- if you go all the way back -- the roots of all this actually lay in a duel between Plato's ideas (Hawk and FS) and Aristotle's (flora's and mine). If y'all are familiar with these guys and their ideas, and I've mischaracterized any of you, my apologies. Anyway, Plato was the one in tune with a spiritual dimension -- which was the real reality; this world was seen by him as more of a shadowy, dreamlike, half-reality; he was the supernaturalist. Aristotle, on the other hand, was the champion of nature -- a "this world/this universe" type. I can try to lay more of this out as they saw it, but it might take a while.

It's fascinating to follow, though, how Plato, as the ultimate father of modern-day collectivism, influenced Kant who influenced Hegel who influenced Marx...If you're interested, I could show you how Plato's ideas tie in with collectivism.

I believe that y'all (Hawk and FS) are advocating forms of subjectivism. That's the doctrine that feelings are the creator of facts/reality, and therefore are our primary tool of cognition. If we feel it, says the subjectivist, that makes it so. The alternative is objectivity, where reality exists independent of human consciousness; that the role of the subject is not to create the object but to perceive it -- and that knowledge of reality can be acquired only by directing one's attention outward to the facts.

But, according to subjectivism, whose consciousness would be the one to create reality? The older version was that each person's feelings/consciousness creates a private world for him/her.

It was Immanuel Kant (late 1700's), though, who first came up with the idea of a "mass consciousness," that created reality, where all of mankind was included. Then Marx took this idea and just split it up. He saw no need for one mass consciousness and split it up into classes, where each class (e.g., the proletariat) had its own "mass consciousness." And others came up with variants of this; e.g., a racial mass consciousness, which all the members of a particular race would have.

I haven't studied your posts in detail yet, but you guys seem to be taking this in another direction -- I'm still somewhat unclear on exactly where you're coming from, though -- but I'll work on it.

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), May 01, 2000.

Thanks Eve, that is very interesting. I didn't realize those guys had been thinking about this topic that long ago. So far, my perspective is a sort of combination of these I guess, not really sure.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), May 01, 2000.

If there were an objective reality, and I am not saying there isn't, how can we, being so heavily filtered by our perceptive apparatus, ever know what it is? What we see hear, fell, think, touch, and smell is only a part of what is "real". We cannot see microwaves, but we know they exist-at least we know the properties of microwaves-But do we really know what a microwave IS?

Much of what makes living possible is an agreement between parties that sos and so is THIS. We can agree that an object is a tree because we all say it is a tree-But what do YOU see when you look at a tree? A logger sees a paycheck and a source for furniture and paper. I may see the answer to a puzzle, or a romantic dream.

The answer to objectivism vs subjectivism, I think, is that it is both-how very eastern, eh? The real crux of the matter is when we are changing what we see as "real" through the process of action, what is really changing? Do we effect a change in the physical world, or do we make a profound adjustment within our spirit to realize what is already there? A mustard seed is a potential mustard plant. Am I a potential warrior, president, etc? Am i already these things at some point in the space time continuim?

More will be revealed.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 01, 2000.

FS,

Maybe it has a parallel with 'my Father's house having many mansions'. Or for many on this forum, we are all blind & back to holding different parts of the elephant.

eve,

Interesting take, please go on. Where did Aristotle's theology go, didn't it 'peter out' after a point?

-- flora (***@__._), May 01, 2000.

FS, flora, Hawk,

Thanks for your interest. Oh my, there's so much I could say here and so little time...

Just a bit for now...FutureShock: "Tree" is a concept that we've abstracted from every actual tree that ever existed, as well as every possible one -- and it represents them all. The only difference between the concept "tree" and a specific tree that we can point to is that our minds simply omit the measurements. In other words, during the process of abstraction we omit the color, height, species, weight, girth, etc. etc. and it thereby forms into a mental concept. This is how we can hold enormous amounts of information -- because concepts (meant in this way) allow for tremendous reductions in what we would otherwise have to memorize. This is what our faculty of reason does...or is supposed to do -- conceptualize through measurement-omission.

FS, if, through our senses, we are consistently affected in certain ways by something (say, a rock), I don't see how it would matter whether it was discovered in the future that, e.g., it had a slightly different molecular structure than what was currently known. Sure, through this new knowledge different scientific uses might be discovered, but the rock would still be a rock. And there wouldn't be a question in terms of it actually "looking" different in "reality." Because you'd need a consciousness to perceive the object -- to see how it "looks." I hope I'm reading you right, here.

Somewhat simpler objects to try this with would be "table" and "chair." After this we can abstract to another level, bringing together "table" and "chair" into the second-level abstraction of "furniture" (also a "concept").

flora,

Arisotle's ethics and politics did kind of peter out, but his epistemology (how we come to know things) -- especially his stress on the importance of reason -- was rediscovered and carried forward in some important ways by -- believe it or not -- St. Thomas Aquinas. St. Thomas saw roles for reason as well as for faith, and as far as reason went -- reached back to Aristotle. And I think you can see this in St. Thomas' use of logic and argument in his Summa Theologica, as well as his other works. Then in the 20th century, Ayn Rand developed Aristotle's epistemology and metaphysics (how we view reality) much further, and combined them with theories of ethics, politics and esthetics into a whole new, integrated system of thought.

More to come when I get a chance...

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), May 01, 2000.

Oops...my two paragraphs on concept-formation were separated by my paragraph responding to the sense perception issue. Sorry.

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), May 01, 2000.

Plato 101 (unbelievably condensed version):

Collectivism is the theory that the group (the collective; e.g., the state, the race, etc.) has primacy over the individual. Plato is the father of collectivism in the West. He was the first thinker to formulate a systematic view of reality, with a collectivist politics as its culmination.

(I'll tell ya, though -- when I first recognized that a view of reality leads logically, through a long chain, to a view of politics, it blew me away.)

Anyway, Plato's metaphysics (view of reality) holds that the universe consists of two opposed dimensions. One is True Reality -- which is a perfect, immutable, non-material, supernatural realm. The other is the material world in which we live. Plato holds that the material world is only an imperfect appearance of True Reality -- a semireal reflection or projection of it.

The content of True Reality, according to Plato, is a set of "universals" -- in other words a set of disembodied abstractions representing all the material, concrete things in this world. For example, particular trees in this world are represented by the concept "tree" which is a "universal" in True Reality. But keep in mind that to Plato the "universal" is what's really real; the particular trees in this world are not -- they have only a shadowy, dreamlike half-reality.

Astounding conclusions about mankind are implicit in this, and were later made clear by a long line of Platonist philosophers. Since individual men (I'll use "men" to mean all individuals) are merely particular instances of the "universal" "man," they aren't ultimately real. What is real about men is only the "universal" which they share in common and reflect.

To common sense, there appear to be many separate, individual men, each independent of the others. But to Platonism, this is a deception; all the apparently individual men are really the same one "universal" in various reflections or manifestations. Thus, all men ultimately comprise one unity, and no earthly man is an autonomous entity. An analogy would be where a person would be reflected in a house of mirrors, where the many reflections wouldn't be autonomous entities.

Now it starts to get really interesting. What follows in regard to human action (per Plato), is a life of self-sacrificial service. When men gather in society, says Plato, the real unit of reality is the community as a whole. So each man should strive, as much as he can, to wipe out his individuality (e.g., his personal desires, ambitions, etc.) and merge into the community/collective (e.g., the state), becoming one with it and living only to serve its welfare.

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), May 02, 2000.