An Antidote to All the Atheism on the Forum

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Anyone else who's sick of the atheism on this form, just click on this link.

Atheist Antidote

-- Alice in Wonderbra (alice@wonder.bra), April 24, 2000

Answers

Alice, LOL That was hilarious.

One of my best friends is an atheist, and the other is a fundy--both are wonderful women, though different as can be. I'm a pantheist, so we have great conversations, and we've never never had a cross word about religion.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), April 24, 2000.


Alice:

atheism

Your definition of atheism is certainly different than mine; but then I consider creationists as pagans: that is, of course, the source of the creationist story. Just read!. By the way, I should add, I see nothing wrong with pagans....

Best wishes,,,,,

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), April 24, 2000.


As sung in "Life of Brian"

"Always look on the bright side of life (whistle)

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 24, 2000.


Alice: Thanks a whole bunch. Great Post!!!!!

-- Pat (-@still.here), April 24, 2000.

GOD is gonna getcha.

-- (Ellis@Wonder.bread), April 24, 2000.


God is inside us and all around us.

-- fauna (xx@yy.ed), April 24, 2000.

Yep! The Bible predicted the Great Apostasy or Great Falling Away from the Bible and Christian faith. Those of you who are Pantheist dingbats or "God is in us and all around us" dingbats are fulfilling prophecy and you don't even realize it, thinking you're so smart with your ridiculous ideas. "Thinking themselves to be wise, they became fools."

Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth, the Life. No man comes to the Father but by Me." Period! Take your pantheism. Have your fun. All it does is make you think you're intellectual.

-- Paul (skypilot99@aol.com), April 25, 2000.


Paul:

Luckily for you, the problem of thinking that you're an intellectual will never occur. I'm not sure that any type of thinking occurs to you beyond spouting more Bible verse.

-- Jim Cooke (JJCooke@yahoo.com), April 25, 2000.


So who needs an antidote to atheism? What's needed is an antidote to dumbfuck Christianity (and Islam).

-- A (A@AisA.com), April 25, 2000.

A-

Sorry, I was trying to be funny and make people look. If you want an antidote to theism, you can go here:

Things They Didn't Teach You in Sunday School

-- Alice in Wonder Bra (
alice@wonder.bra), April 25, 2000.



Alice it WAS funny. I put it in my favorites. The lyrics to the Plastic Jesus song are hilarious.

Skypilot, just keep that plane flying higher and higher and I'm sure you god will take you right through the pearly gates.

I once asked my fundy friend what made heaven so great that I would want to go there. Here's the gist of what she said: We will have everlasting peace. (not a bad start) There will be no fear nor pain. (getting even better) We will be in the presence of God. (so??)

I asked what we would do in the presence of God. She said we would sing his praises, rejoice and walk in the light and beauty of our heavenly home. (sounds like he needs lots of stroking--must be low self-esteem)

I asked would we have books, or meet our dead relatives, and would all those people that have done us dirt be there too. The short answer is no books, we wouldn't need them. (I want my books!) Yes, we would see our relatives if they had accepted Jesus as their savior. (Shucks, that left out some of my favorite folks)

And yes, our enemies will be there too just as long as they accept the Lord before they die. (to hell with that) Would I see my dead husband whom I loved dearly, but I also love my present husband dearly, so how would that work out. It wouldn't be a problem as there will be no sex in heaven or pairing of individuals, just everyone loving everyone in the pure love of God. (I'm outta here.)

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), April 25, 2000.


Paul, Read it again and don't just read the "new testament".

If we have ONE all seeing, all knowing, all mercifull God why do we need a second person to get to him?

Something in that equation is flawed.

-- RickJohn (Rickjohn1@yahoo.com), April 25, 2000.


Certainly there are many books on the topic of Christianity and even discussing the bible and actions of Christians and non-Christians alike during the years involved. During the years in which I read the Bible, the Koran, and the holy books of other religions, I also read a book entitled "Those Incredible Christians." It's out of print now, but here's a review by a Christian who disputes much within.

Christian Review of Those Incredible Christians

Much of the debate in "Those Incredible Christians" revolves around whether Paul was qualified to speak for Jesus. Paul never even met Jesus. The discrepancies between the words of Jesus as written by his disciples and those written by Paul are explained in
-- Anita (
Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 25, 2000.


Oops. Let's try again with the " at the end of that link. The discrepancies between the words of Jesus as written by his disciples and those written by Paul are explained in

It seems that Paul gained quite a few followers in his time, so when investigating the other co-authors of the Bible, one might think to ask "Was this writer influenced more by Paul or Jesus?"

-- Anita (
Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 25, 2000.


It seems I should have stayed in bed this morning.

The discrepancies between the words of Jesus as written by his disciples and those written by Paul are explained in Essenes and Paul

If that doesn't work, I give up.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 25, 2000.



A@AisA

"What's needed is an antidote to dumb**** Christianity..."

If memory serves me I think there already is "an antidote".

It's called Hell.

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), April 25, 2000.


What cracks me up even more than that Athiest Antidote site is all these newbies claiming to know the Truth. Christianity (actually, Paulism) has been around for less than 2000 years, Muslims a little longer, Buddhists about twice that, the pre-cursors to modern Judaism about the same.

Spirituality has been an attribute of homo sapiens for more than two million years, but these Jesus-come-latelies think they have all the answers. Just like kids; I shouldn't be surprised. And, just like children, they're bound and determined to tell everyone how clever and right they are. Hey, mom, look at me.

The stories and mythologies in which they believe are also imbued with a certain childlike simplistic banality. Like Peter Pan, they never grow up. They remain whiney, petulant and defensive, covering their ears and shouting louder, rather than attempting to discuss, discover and think.

I could go on, but why should I have all the fun? Next...

Hallyx

"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." ---Robert A. Heinlein

-- (Hallyx@aol.com), April 25, 2000.


I'd REALLY like to hear from some Christians on Essenes versus Paul. I KNOW I screwed up the link twice, but I thought I had THREE strikes before I was thrown out of the game.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 25, 2000.

Hallyx@aol.com

Tell me... why does the concept of Hell bother you so?

It puzzels me that you can brush off any Christian views as nonsense but become very irratable when the subject of Hell is brought up.

BTW: You really need to find a new catch all phrase....

" "One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." ---Robert A. Heinlein"

This one has grown somewhat old.

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), April 25, 2000.


It puzzels me that you can brush off any Christian views as nonsense but become very irratable when the subject of Hell is brought up.

Whatever the hell gave you that impression? Hell bothers me no more than heaven, resurrection, virgin birth, the flood, the creation myth, extraterrestrial anthropomorphic deities, ghosts, goblins, witches, devils, Santa Claus or the tooth fairy---all simple myths suitable for children.

(A friend recently pointed out to me that children are as capable of understanding real explanations for phenomena as they are fictional characterizations---perhaps even better.)

No, AGH, what makes me "irratable" (sic) is arrogant stupidity as demonstrated by too many self-avowed cristians around here, although by no means all. Interesting that I never had a particular dislike for Paulists til I started hangin out on TB2K. I have no racial prejudice nor gender bias; I tolerate people of every nation, station, culture and creed. My one area of intolerance is against the willfully stupid---mea culpa.

I'm also impatient with posters too lazy to run their items through a spell-checker.

BTW: You really need to find a new catch all phrase....

" "One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." ---Robert A. Heinlein"

First time I've used that one on this forum. I have a large and comprehansive quotefile and take some measure of pride in rarely repeating a sigline.

Hallyx

"With or without religion you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." ---Dr Steven Weinberg (Nobel Prize laureate)

-- (Hallyx@aol.com), April 25, 2000.


Hallyx@aol.com

"I'm also impatient with posters too lazy to run their items through a spell-checker."

Hmmmmmm.... maabee U kan xplane dis four me peas:

"...many self-avowed cristians around here,..."

Ahemm.... that wood bee a kapital C*h*ristians

Those who live in glass houses should refrain from throwing to many stones.

Maybe you are looking for Greenspuns spell check forum instead of TB2K.

"First time I've used that one on this forum. I have a large and comprehansive quotefile and take some measure of pride in rarely repeating a sigline. "

Good fer U! ....Eye din't sey U wer repeetin yer ciglyn, eye sed et wuz growin owld. Utters wuz usin et b4 U wuz.

-- Aint Gunna Hoppen (Knot Hear Knot@evor.com), April 25, 2000.


Hallyx@aol.com

"I have a large and comprehansive quotefile and take some measure of pride..."

Yes, yes, I'm quite sure you're quotefile is V-E-R-Y LARGE, probably the best around. Ever think that last part may be a problem for you? Pride that is?

"I'm also impatient..."

Never mind, I won't go there.

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), April 25, 2000.


Hallyx@aol.com

Ooops! ....missed one

"I have a large and comprehansive quotefile"

That would be "comprehensive" NOT "comprehansive"

Spell check R Us

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), April 25, 2000.


Anita,

I read about half of your link and skimmed the rest. For me this phrase can sum up my impression:

"IT WAS NECESSARY FOR HIM TO DIE AS A HUMAN BEING AND ENTER THOSE SUBTLE REGIONS THROUGH THE ENERGY VORTEX WHICH WAS INFESTED WITH PARASITIC DEMONS. He did so, freeing many souls who were being held captive in the subtle planes (being sucked of life-force by vampire-like disembodied entities) and purified the entire between-lives region and energy vortexes. This took place during the three days after his crucifixion and prior to his reappearance to the disciples at the tomb. Thus, the Essene Christians believed that salvation was dependent on following the savings teachings of Jesus -- not belief in his sacrificial death -- BUT DID BELIEVE HE PERFORMED A MIGHTY WORK BY DYING AS A MAN AND PURIFYING THE BETWEEN-LIVES REGION. "

That to me is not Christianity. Paul did have an impact on the shape of Christianity, but didn't destroy it. While I personally don't like to go "bible bashing" (warring with phrases from the bible), try reading Acts 15, which gives an account of the Council of Jerusalem, the first church council. Paul requested the council, but Peter's statements caused the assembly to fall silent in the end. Peter's authority was recognized as supreme.

Actually, Hallyx' Catholic priest friend could probably give the best information on this time period. Early church fathers notably St. Clement (died 80 A.D.), St. Ignatius of Antioch (died 110 A.D), and St. Justin Martyr (died 165 A.D) all overlapped timewise with Paul and the other apostles and said the same things. If these modern-day fringe groups had any *real* merit, it would have been addressed by Martin Luther long ago.

Paul, you said,

"Yep! The Bible predicted the Great Apostasy or Great Falling Away from the Bible and Christian faith."

No offense, but are you a Mormon? They are the only ones I know of (other than maybe the JWs) that believe a *total* apostasy of Christ's church has occurred. To me this also makes no sense. Christ brought up the point of a man building a house, saying the wise man would build his on rock (Peter's Church IMHO) whereas a foolish one would build it in sand. Do you really equate Christ with the foolish man whose house got washed away? There is a big difference between *some* falling away in the church, and a TOTAL falling away. I don't believe the latter is possible.

Anita, I don't know if I addressed what you wanted me to, but if you have some specific question, ask it and I'll try and answer. But be warned, I'm a J6P, not a Christian scholar.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 25, 2000.


Frank:

Thanks for at least giving it a shot. You gave up right before the issues I wanted you to address. If you'd like to give it just ONE more shot, jump to the end, back up and review the checklist.

I'm not a biblical scholar either, and I have NO idea what a J6P is, but I wonder how many contradictions may exist in the bible because Paul took it upon himself to basically start his OWN religion and the two got interweaved.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 25, 2000.


gilda:

>> I asked what we would do in the presence of God. She said we would sing his praises, rejoice and walk in the light and beauty of our heavenly home. <<

As Mark Twain once remarked, he'd choose Heaven for the climate, but choose Hell for the conversation.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), April 25, 2000.


When I was a kid, I asked a Christian friend the same question you did, Gilda. She said that we would be so dumbstruck by the glory of God that all we would be able to do would be to praise him forever and ever. My question to her was, why bother to give us the ability to reason if it was just going to be taken away from us in the afterlife that was also given to us?

The thought of mindlessly repeating "Holy, holy, holy" for all eternity is completely horrifying to me. If I were any kind of theist, I would do whatever I could to avoid such an awful fate. Talk about "damned if you do, damned if you don't"!

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 25, 2000.


First we should answer the questions;Did Jesus exist?Does it make sense for non-Christians and atheists to debate the validity of Paulianity vs Essene Christianity without first trying to understand Jesus in a historical sense?

According to many modern bible scholars and historians, there is not a shred of evidence that he did, and neither did the town of Nazareth.

The 4 gospels are said to be pure hearsay, as well as the epistles of Paul etc., who weren't yet around at the time that Jesus is said to have been.

The link I gave above is extremely interesting in terms of mythology and history. It makes a striking parallel with the myth of Hercules and the myth of Jesus. Some interesting highlights (but you should take the time to read the entire essay):

(Earlier in the essay, the author establishes that Jesus is a myth.)If Jesus, then why not Hercules?

If a person accepts hearsay and accounts from believers as historical evidence for Jesus, then should they not act consistently to other accounts based solely on hearsay and belief?

To take one example, examine the evidence for the Hercules of Greek mythology and you will find it parallels the historicity of Jesus to just an amazing degree that to deny Hercules as a historical fact belies and contradicts the methodology used for a historical Jesus.

Note that Herculean myth resembles Jesus in many areas. Hercules was born from a God (Zeus) and a mortal chaste mother (Alcmene). Similar to Herod who wanted to kill Jesus, Hera wanted to kill Hercules. Like Jesus, Hercules traveled the earth as a mortal helping mankind and performed miraculous deeds. Like Jesus who died and rose to heaven, Hercules died, rose to Mt. Olympus and became a god. Hercules was perhaps the most popular hero in Ancient Greece and Rome. They believed that he actually lived, told stories about him, worshiped him, and dedicated temples to him.

Likewise the "evidence" of Hercules closely parallels that of Jesus. We have historical people like Hesiod and Plato who mentions Hercules. Similar to the way the gospels tell a narrative story of Jesus, so do we have the epic stories of Homer who depict the life of Hercules. Aesop tells stories and quotes the words of Hercules. Just as we have mention of Jesus in Joesphus' Antiquities, so also does Joesphus mention Hercules in Antiquities (see: 1.15; 8.5.3; 10.11.1).

[snip]

All information about Hercules and Jesus comes from stories, beliefs, and hearsay. Should we then believe in a historical Hercules, simply because ancient historians mention him and that we have stories and beliefs about him? Of course not, and the same must apply to Jesus if we wish to hold any consistency to historicity.

[snip]

People consider Hercules a myth because people no longer believe in the Greek and Roman stories. Christianity and its churches, on the other hand, still hold a powerful influence on governments, institutions, and colleges. Anyone doing research on a historical Jesus, even skeptics, had better allude to his existence or else risk future funding and damage to their reputations. Christianity depends on establishing a historical Jesus and it will defend, at all costs, even the most unreliable sources.

[snip]

Then why the myth of Jesus?

Some people seem to think that just because so much has been written about a character, that means that he must have actually lived. This is not so. The number of people who believe or write about something or the number of degrees they hold say nothing at all about fact. Facts comes out of evidence, not from hearsay or from hubris scholars. Regardless of the position or admiration held by a scholar, if he cannot support his hypothesis with good evidence, then it can only remain a hypothesis.

[snip]

Remember that just before and during the first century, the Jews were prophesying about an upcoming Messiah. Their beliefs influenced many of their followers. We know that powerful beliefs attempt to create self-fulfilling prophesies, and surely this was just as true in ancient times. It was a popular dream expressed in Hebrew Scripture for the promise of an "end-time" with a savior to lead them to the promised land. Indeed, Roman records show executions of several would-be Messiahs, (but not a single record mentions a Jesus). It was widely thought that there could come a final war against the "Sons of Darkness"-- the Romans.

This then could very well have served as the ignition and flame for the future growth of Christianity. This coupled with the pagan myths of the time give sufficient information about how such a religion could have formed. Many of the Hellenistic and pagan myths parallel so closely to the alleged Jesus that to ignore its similarities is to ignore mythological history.

There have been dozens of similar savior stories that propagated the minds of humans long before the alleged life of Jesus. Virtually nothing about Jesus "the Christ" is original or new.

For example, the religion of Zoroaster was founded circa 628-551 B.C.E. in ancient Persia and roused mankind in the need for hating a devil, the belief of a paradise, last judgment and resurrection of the dead. Mithraism, an offshoot of Zoroastrianism probably influenced early Christianity with their beliefs. The Magi described in the New Testament appear to be Zoroastrian priests. Note the word "paradise" came from the Persian pairidaeza.

The Egyptian mythical Horus, god of light and goodness has many parallels to Jesus. For some examples:

    Horus and the Father are one 
     Horus is the Father seen in the Son 
     Horus, light of the world, represented by the symbolical eye, the 
sign of salvation. 
     Horus was the way, the truth, the life by name and in person 
     Horus baptized with water by Anup (Jesus baptized with water by 
John) 
     Horus the Good Shepherd 
     Horus as the Lamb (Jesus as the Lamb) 
     Horus as the Lion (Jesus as the Lion) 
     Horus identified with the Tat Cross (Jesus with the cross) 
     The trinity of Atum the Father, Horus the Son, Ra the Holy Spirit 
     Horus the avenger (Jesus who brings the sword) 
     Horus the afflicted one 
     Horus as life eternal 
     Twelve followers of Hours as Har-Khutti (Jesus' 12 disciples) 

Osiris, Hercules, Mithra, Hermes, Prometheus, Perseus and others compare to the Christian myth.

[snip]

-- Ann A. Lyze (@ .), April 25, 2000.


bold off, sorry.

Sysop would you please add a close bold tag after "Then why the myth of Jesus" if you happen to drop by? Thanks.

-- Ann A. Lyze (@ .), April 25, 2000.


Every one of you are the greatest. LoL LoL LoL LoL This has been more fun. It's sure got y2k discussion beat all to hell.

-- Pat (-@still.here), April 25, 2000.

Ann:

I've always found religion an interesting topic to study, although I rarely have an opportunity to discuss it without emotional involvement by others. As a non-Christian myself, I AM curious, and there are a few Christian posters on this forum who won't simply curse me and suggest I'm hellbound. I see Frank as one of those Christians.

Regarding a man named Jesus once having lived and offered words of encouragement to others, I find that concept quite credible. Why NOT? I find the words said by this man to be consistent with a philosophy of "Love one another", "Do unto others as you would have them do until you", etc. SOME of the words of this man have purportedly been recorded by those who spent time with him. Again, I find this concept quite credible.

For ME, as a non-Christian, it makes no difference whether one sees Jesus as the son of God or NOT. If one has FAITH that Jesus is the son of God, they have that faith. For many, that faith has moved along to believe that the Bible contains the word of God. Of COURSE they must first have the faith that Jesus was the Son of God, but they ALSO must have faith that the other folks mentioned in the Bible teachings spoke for God as well.

Perhaps I've mixed up threads, but SOMEWHERE along the line on this forum, a discussion unfolded on why there were so many inconsistencies in the Bible if the Bible were indeed the word of God. I'm personally curious to learn if at least SOME of these inconsistencies could be the result of activists at the time who proclaimed an alliance with the man Jesus where none really existed.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 25, 2000.


"SOME of the words of this man have purportedly been recorded by those who spent time with him. Again, I find this concept quite credible."

Anita, from this quote and your comments in general, I get the sense you haven't read the link I provided. Bible scholars and historians contend that nothing ever written about Jesus in the New Testament were from eyewitness acounts, i.e., none of the apostles etc. ever knew Jesus personaly. What's more, they debate wether the writings of Mark, Luke, Mathew etc. were from THEM, and not from some unknown authors. In a historical point of view, all those writings were hearsay.

I have no disagreement whatsoever that the teachings attributed to Jesus were good and moral. What my point was in posting this link and exerpt above was to show that debating Paulianity vs Essene Christianity is akin to debating one version of a Peter Pan movie from another in relevance to the story as a whole, and which is right and which is wrong.

And if you read the essay, it gives many reseached reasons and answers why there are so many inconsitencies in the Bible.

-- Ann A. Lyze (@ .), April 25, 2000.


I see your point now, Ann. While the main author of the link you provided contends that no historical Jesus ever existed, the OTHER folks in that link use the date of Jesus to contend that the apostles couldn't have known the man.

Again, it would be MY bet that a man named Jesus DID exist [even though no author of his time mentions him.] Lest I give the wrong impression, I would go on to say that I'd bet that a man named Hercules ALSO existed, as well as a man named Horus. Even old wives' tales go back to SOME facts. The facts simply got distorted with time and telling.

It's not my intent to prove or disprove that the other apostles/disciples mentioned in the Bible did or did not have contact with a man named Jesus, who may or may not have existed. However, if one BELIEVES that Jesus indeed DID exist, and BELIEVES that the Bible represents [at least in the New Testament] the word of God, Paul's presumed writings ARE those most contrary to the writings of the others when they spoke [IF they spoke] about what Jesus said. This in itself puts Paul at the forefront on debate.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 25, 2000.


Anita,

I shuddered at the sight of that table. PLEASE, my wife says I spend too much time at this as it is, responding to each of those would take a long while. But as an easy example, the site says,

"I hereby issue a call to all Christians: REJECT PAULIANITY AND EMBRACE JESUS CHRIST! The first step is to give up eating meat;

In John 6 Jesus multiplies the loaves and the *fishes* for people to eat, I doubt if he would have done that if vegetarianism was part of his beliefs. If you'd care to pick out a couple of items on the table for me to address, I'd like that much more than ALL of them.

Christianity has many believers, and everyone has their own point of view, but TO ME, these people are out there.

I guess I wasn't too clear in my last post. What I meant to say was that Peter (first pope of the Catholic Church) was in council recognized as the head of the church. Other early church leaders (including Paul) wrote in a similar vein. I don't see anything resembling a war over apostasy occuring in the early church over the issues the article expresses. There is however, at the end of John 6 an example of the first apostasy that occurred while Jesus was still teaching! Some of Jesus' followers refused to "eat His body and drink His blood" and so walked away and returned to their old lives.

I think that if there had been a major factional split, it would have been recorded in enough detail to recognize. I don't know, maybe I'm missing the point of the paper, but the things that seem to jump out and shout "heresy" may be outweighing my "objectivity".

Oh yeah, J6P = Joe six-pack. Usually a derogatory term, but I apply it to myself as I really don't want anyone taking advise from (anyone they don't know really) me over the internet.

Long, if nonsensical,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 26, 2000.


Frank:

Good points. I didn't find it nonsensical. I remember something about not eating meat from that link, but it didn't seem consistent with my remembrance of the Bible. There's little doubt in my mind that the folks who presented the site to which I linked have an agenda of their own, which would be to gain followers for THEIR interpretation. I DID think they introduced some probing questions, however.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 26, 2000.


Anita

"As a non-Christian myself,... and suggest I'm hellbound."

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE: no man cometh unto the Father, but by ME.

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), April 26, 2000.


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