This isn't a question, really, but I thought your comment on makeup Friday was interesting, Jan:

"You can wear makeup and still be a feminist. But you have to understand what it is that you're doing. You have to understand the reasons behind it. If not, you're submitting to living in someone else's world, and I think that's something to be ashamed of."

This is true. I think it's ok to have some things as a habit and not worry about them all the time, as long as you're honest about the fact that they're habits and may not be the most 'righteous' in the world, for want of a better description. Sometimes you feel like wrestling w/ the issues involved and sometimes you don't, and you shouldn't feel guilty that you're not a 'perfect feminist' or a perfect whatever, as long as you're engaging with the issues, and really looking at the underlying motives of people and the society at large.

Besides, if you singlehandedly tried to fix everything about yourself that reflects problems in society, you would go bonkers PDQ.

Anyway, just my thoughts. Anyone have a comment?

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2000

Answers

Well, in my opinion, it's impossible to be a perfect feminist. Like I said before, you have to live in this world, and you can't live in this world and be a perfect feminist. At least, I don't think it's possible.

One of the reasons is that I believe it's incredibly difficult to be a "perfect feminist" and still like men. And come on, you have to admit that a lot of men are really great. I'm not going to give up my appreciation for men simply in order to subscribe to some feminist ideals -- nor am I going to submerge myself into feminist philosophy so deeply that I forget WHY I used to appreciate men. I am really serious when I say that I think that's a real danger when you start to study feminism.

However, I don't think it's right to simply ignore it, either. I know a lot of people who are like, "Oh, feminism? That's like, Femi-Nazis and people bitching because guys open doors for them. I'm not into that." I think that's wrong, mostly because it's the wrong idea about feminism. It's not about getting pissed off all the time, it's about being your own person and not submitting and keeping your opinion to yourself all the time. At least, that's what I think.

So that's why I say, yeah, wear your makeup, marry your husband, have fun being a girl, but don't do it without giving it some serious thought. Stand up for yourself, understand the person you really are, don't submit to somebody else's idea of what you are.

Does that make sense? My, but I can ramble on.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000

But see, I REALIZE what my reasons are for wearing makeup. I'm not living in a dream world. It's fun to do, and I wear makeup even when I'm not leaving the house, and even when my husband's out of town. I don't care if it's "righteous" or not! And frankly, I dont' care. Just because I like to wear makeup doesn't mean I'm living in someone else's world. I believe I look stunning without it - I even *gasp* go shopping without makeup sometimes, and have gone to work without it as well. I don't *need* it either, and if for some reason I had to sell it all, or my house burned down, I would not be ruined for having lost my makeup. I would be MUCH more devastated if I lost my books - THAT would just about do me in.

On with my comments about today's post (Jan's comments in quotes, mine follow):

Wait - first of all, I'd like to point out that in yesterday's entry, Jan stated, regarding the email I sent her yesterday, "Give matter no more thought." It's nice to see you are giving it no more thought.

"It put me in mind of Hillary Clinton, of all people. Remember when Hillary said something about how she was a career woman, and how she could have "just stayed home baking cookies" but preferred to have a real job?"

If she wanted to get a job, fine - I have no problem with that. But I don't like the way it's phrased - "JUST stay home", as if raising a child isn't very important, and "a real job", as if raising kids isn't a job. To me, having a job/career is "just having a job", whereas raising our children will be the ultimate in fulfillment, and probably the most difficult, yet worthwhile job I will ever have. I also don't think people should have kids if they're not going to raise them (read: stay home with them), but that's a different can of worms that I don't feel like getting into today.

"Stay-at-home wives across the country rose up in outrage."

Well, look at the flipside. If she had instead knocked working instead of staying home, would you not have taken that a little personally? I state again, if she'd said, "I've decided that I'd like a little more in my life than raising our daughter," maybe stay at home moms wouldn't have gotten so mad?

"Also, I have no problem with people who decide that what they really want from life is to stay home and do housework and raise children. That's a perfectly valid lifestyle choice."

But you SAID "I mean, OK, get married, have kids, but for crying out loud, do something ELSE with your life, too. Do something meaningful!" That indicates to me that you have a problem with people who stay home and raise kids. If YOU personally do NOT feel that staying home and raising children is what would make you happy, then for Pete's sake, don't do it. However, I do feel that doing this is what I'm cut out to do in life. I won't stay at home forever, but I'm going to cherish the time I have. I agree with you in that NO woman should EVER feel she HAS to do something because someone else thinks she does. But please understand that I, and most people I know who are doing this, believe it's the RIGHT thing to do, and it's what we WANT to do. "Success" to me is doing what you set out to do, whatever that may be. Not necessarily being high up on some corporate ladder, but TO ME, being a mom.

"Having children is meaningful. In the sentence I wrote, I should have included the word "else" again, for clarity."

I appreciate that. HOWEVER, I don't believe that if you have children, they should be JUST "a part of your life". For the next I don't know HOW many years, my kids are going to be #1. I will attend every event they are in, because my stepdad didn't bother coming to my things in school, and while I don't hold a grudge, I won't soon forget it. It hurts. Like, if he really, really cared enough, he would have postponed that meeting and come to my concert. And when I'm a mom, I don't care if it means turning on my heel and walking out of my boss's office - I *will* be at that play, concert, hockey game, whatever it is. A job is just a job, but your kids are yours for a LIFETIME, long after you've stopped punching a clock.

"The author of that statement didn't read the book that she thinks she's talking about."

You're right, I didn't. But like you said, neither did you. A woman on my pregnancy mailing list said it was a wonderful book, so maybe YOU should read it before making generalizations about what's in the introduction.

"Most anti-feminist invective seems to consist primarily of ad hominem attacks: "She obviously can't get herself a man! She's just ugly. She hates all men! She's been brainwashed!"

But I'm NOT anti-feminist. And I did NOT say any of those things about you, Jan. I think feminism, in its pure form (meaning, a woman should be able to go out and do whatever it is she has set out to do), is a WONDERFUl thing, but I also believe the pendulum has swung too far the other way. In the 80's, women decided they could "have it all". I don't believe that's possible. The old Chinese proverb says "If you chase after two rabbits, you will lose them both". I don't think any woman should believe she should be supermom AND super- career woman. If you want both career and family, then either get the career stuff out of the way first, so that when you DO have kids, the job can become secondary for a while, or do it opposite, like I am. I never really HAD a fabulous career, but once my babes are off in school, I might like to give it a shot.

"You know, I think that email really illustrates why a lot of women don't want to identify themselves as "feminist" these days. The term has been manipulated and hijacked by anti-feminists..."

It's not the anti-feminists that have given feminism a bad name - it's the so-called "feminists" who are spreading the "MEN BAD!" philosophy. A woman on my mailing list said she considers herself a feminist, then added "Or should I say womanist?" I like the term womanist. I don't have this anger against males, but maybe that's because I've never been abused by a man, I have a pretty OK stepdad, and lots of male friends. "Lifetime - Television for Women" is often called "The Feminist Channel", have you ever watched it? The movies on there sicken me - they're all about these women who've been abused by either men or the law. I can't stand the whiny, wimpy women in those movies, but the reason they have them is so women can watch them and say, "MEN BAD! See how awful they are? You don't need one around." Why do they never show a woman whose man abuses her ONE time, and she says "Screw you!" and leaves him right there on the spot, laughing the whole way? Then show her getting into a healthy relationship with a man who doesn't hit her. I think that kind of movie would be much better for womankind than these "Men BAD! See, you can NEVER win when it comes to men" movies.

I said, "I gotta go - baby's kicking like nuts 'cause my blood pressure just soared, and I want to go upstairs so the proud daddy can feel him or her kick, and we can look at each other and smile until we get tears in our eyes. But, to you, that's not very meaningful, I guess."

And you responded with, "I have nothing much to say about this paragraph, either. I included it here primarily for the humor value."

I have to ask you - what's so humorous about that? You sit here and retract all your statements, and say "sorry, I guess raising babies really IS meaningful", then laugh at me for getting emotional about my unborn baby. That's just SAD, Jan. I don't know what your issue is, if you're saying these things because you're jealous that I'm married and you're not, and I'm having a baby and you're not. And don't tell me you don't want these things, because if you'd like, I can reference your very own webjournal where you've talked about how you want to get married. You have NO idea what it's like to be pregnant. Pregnant women are usually VERY emotional, meaning we cry at the drop of a hat, or in this case, the kick of a foot. We are also a little more militant - I will do and say anything to protect myself and my beliefs, especially if they have anything to do with this precious life incubating in my belly. Before getting pregnant, I may have just sat by and watched, but something in those hormones turns you into a mama bear.

"Feminism isn't about hating men. It's not about throwing away your makeup."

But you seem to believe it is! You read the intro to a feminist book, and immediately said, "I want to throw out my makeup!" So if feminism isn't about throwing away makeup, what made you think that?

"It's about knowing your own mind and refusing to follow someone else's rules."

Right. That means refusing to follow YOUR rules too, which state "Do something else meaningful with your life!" I might, I might not. Depends on how I feel after the kids are in school. Why do you take issue with that? Why do you care so much?

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

I believe that I've already coherently addressed all of the questions that were asked in the last post here, so I will refer the author to either my journal entries on the topic, or my email to her.

The one thing that I would like to point out is that I did not, in fact, generalize about what was in the book that as she correctly points out, neither of us read. I was not generalizing about a book. I was writing about my own thoughts. Believe it or not, it is possible to have independent thoughts that are not inspired by a book.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

It really is hard to follow a debate when one of the "sides" seems to be self-contradictory. Two examples:

Today or yesterday's entry Jan says she likes her co-workers and will miss working with them. This caught me by surprise because past entries played on her seemingly strong distaste for them for various reasons.

Also, Jan you used to be anti-makeup, then you caught the "bug" yourself and then threw yourself into it "full faced" (excuse the pun). May I remind you of your past frequent posts on alt.fashion? I am not the one to be against those in any way, since I too, like Jen, love cosmetics, but I'm just confused about what your views on this subject as a whole are as they seem to change in any given week.

http://www.deja.com/my/pb/recent_post_articles.xp?group=alt.fashion&nu m=65&member_name=mswhatsit

Yours in beauty,

Shelagh

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

It is not contradictory to like makeup for awhile and then not like it. Nor is it contradictory to like your co-workers and yet sometimes become annoyed with them.

I will not be responding to any further ad hominem attacks. Anyone who wishes to post about the actual topic may feel free to do so. Actually, anyone who wants to post ad hominem attacks can feel free as well, but I won't be answering them.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

There is more at play here than merely a conscious decision for most women, I would think. Social roles are learned at a very early age, and deviating from them can create pathological states in some women. I think the progression to women with more diverse lifepaths is proceeding fine, though I don't know if this is a unidirectional thing or if it's just one of those pendulum-type things.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

I agree that it's hard to deviate from certain learned roles. That's one of the reasons I say that you should go ahead and wear the makeup or whatever, as long as it's not some extremist "I hate my face and must put on mascara before leaving the bathroom" thing.

However, I would also postulate that the more people that try to actively defy a certain expected role, the more that deviation becomes closer to the norm. I'm not sure how far you could go with that -- I mean, if thousands of women suddenly decided that they were going to deviate from the norm by not wearing shirts anymore, would topless women become normal and accepted? Probably not. Probably you'd just see thousands of women arrested for indecent exposure. But I think that smaller changes -- no longer expecting women to wear makeup "just because", no longer expecting women to be the primary caregivers to children -- are more easily effected.

And yeah, I think women have come a long way, and I'm basically happy with the way things are. It's just certain attitudes that annoy me (and I think that in my two journal entries on the topic, I've made perfectly clear what those attitudes are).

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

so called feminism is another one of those things that has really just ended up hurting women. think about it. you think you are liberating yourself by following your 'dreams' or 'feelings'? I have news for you, you are a new kind of slave. Always unsatisfied, always searching for that "something else". Shack up, you have a right. A right to be a disposible woman. Have his kid too? oh sure who needs to get married for that? Feminism has really brain washed a few generations try and step back and look at the problems of society. Kids need love home and a mother and father. Can you pay someone enough to raise your child for you while you work during the day? Do us all a favor and dont have kids if you cant be unselfish enough to sacrifice or at least do your *job* as a mother. Life shouldnt center soley around "ME". PS everyone go to church on sunday. its just a fraction of the total time in the week! PAX K

-- Anonymous, April 28, 2000

I see a lot of "but she said".. and "BUT SHE SAID!!!!" crap up there. The point got missed a little I think. Overall, I read the message of the entry as : be your own woman and all that entails. I have to side with Friday, that most women these days think of feminism as some militant existance with no male interaction other than to put men down in any way possible. That's not what it feminism is. Unfortunately the media and trends of today's society like to display the Jerry Springer hardliners who call themselves Feminists, which I think Kira was refering to. Every woman is a feminist on some level - by definition she has to be. In every woman there are shades of gray. Be true to yourself and the rest will fall into place.

-- Anonymous, April 28, 2000

Oh and I think using "shacking up" was kind of a poor example of a degeneration since divorce rates are sky high. It's actually been shown that couples who co-habitate or "shack up" have a greatly increased rate of a successful marriage with fewer and less frequent marriage counseling. But that's another topic for another string.

-- Anonymous, April 28, 2000

I think Jan has been unfairly taken to task over that "do something else with your life" comment. Okay, yes, maybe she ought to have acknowledged that raising children is meaningful ... but I don't think there was anything wrong with her suggestion that it shouldn't be the only thing in anyone's life.

Seriously: how many kids do you expect to have? How long do you expect them to live at home? So you have them at 25, the last one moves out when you're 45 ... what are you going to do now? Sit around for a couple of years until it's time to start nagging them about grandkids? And then fret because you don't see your grandbabies often enough?

I don't think there is anything wrong with being frustrated with women who make that particular lifestyle choice in this day and age when they have so many other opportunities. That doesn't mean you can't be a full time mom while your children need you, no. Then again, full time moms back in the "good old days" had a lot more to do than go to soccer games and monitor TV choices; they also had to clean the house without benefit of vacuum cleaners, cook without benefit of freezers or microwaves, churn butter, sew dresses, you name it. They probably also had more kids to deal with. Surely you've got to have a little free time during the next 18 years to develop some hobbies and interests of your own, and surely Jan isn't wrong to suggest that, is she?

I have been blessed with a wonderful, hands-off mother who lets me live my life, who never interfered from the time I turned 18, who didn't nag me too much even before I became an adult, and who has always respected my choices. I have friends with mothers who continue to nag them, control them, and drive them insane even though my friends are in their thirties. You want to know the difference? My mom has a career and hobbies. She stayed home with me when I was a kid, until my younger brother was 12 or so, but she always went to school, cultivated her hobbies, and otherwise prepared for the day when she'd be able to pick up her life outside the home again.

Frankly, I wouldn't have wanted my mother to make me her entire life, and she didn't. Be a person first and a mother second; your children will thank you for it.

-- Anonymous, April 28, 2000

Mishmash of thoughts:

IMO, the decision to have a child is probably the biggest one of your life. It should be taken very seriously, and if you decide to have kids, my personal opinion is that having brought them into the world you owe them the responsibility of taking care of them - making them a significant portion of your life, no matter what else is going on; taking responsibility for them financially and emotionally; all that good stuff.

And as far as the PS 'go to church' that someone threw out, morality and responsibility can come from lots of places other than a church. Some churches (at least ones I've gone to!) have very little to do w/ morality and responsibility at all.

Now donning the flame-retardant suit,

-- Anonymous, April 28, 2000