Elian's Seizure Surprised Crowd - AP

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Elian's Seizure Surprised Crowd

By TERRY SPENCER, Associated Press Writer


MIAMI (AP) -- The protesters at the Little Havana home of Elian Gonzalez had dwindled to fewer than 100 in the pre-dawn darkness. Sipping strong Cuban coffee, they talked quietly about what would happen to Elian Gonzalez.

Suddenly, just after 5 a.m. today, five white vans screeched to a halt in front of the house and about 20 federal agents -- wearing helmets, masks and carrying automatic rifles -- stormed into the Gonzalez house with a battering ram.

Inside, Donato Dalrymple, one of the fishermen who rescued Elian from the sea on Thanksgiving Day, held the boy and backed into a closet as the agents approached, guns pointed. Six-year-old Elian, wearing a white T-shirt and shorts, looked terrified.

''They said, 'Give me the boy or I'll shoot you,''' Dalrymple said. One agent pointed a gun at him, but the agent's finger was not on the trigger.

The agents, from the Immigration and Naturalization Service and the United States Border Patrol, wrapped a white blanket around Elian and hustled him out the door and into a van as the crowd tried to stop them. The child appeared bewildered.

Ramon Saul Sanchez, a leader of the Miami exile community, said a federal agent hit him in the side of the head with a gun when Sanchez and other demonstrators attempted to form a human chain in front of the house.

An hour later, the child's other great-uncle, Delfin Gonzalez, stood in the front yard where the chain-link fence had been smashed and bent to the ground.

''They broke all the doors, and they took the boy in tears. They are savages,'' he said. ''They destroyed everything. They came in with guns.''

A woman who lives two houses down on the same side of the street was at the barricades praying when the agents arrived.

''I began to smell something that stung and I couldn't breathe. Then we noticed they were gassing us. They broke down the fence carrying guns.''

Beatriz Hernandez, 55, said agents pointed a gun at the head of one of the women in Mothers Against Repression and told her not to move.

''I feel like I'm back in Cuba in 1960. That's the way I feel right now. I've been here 40 years. I never, never thought anything like this would happen,'' Hernandez said.

AP-NY-04-22-00 0711EDT<  link

-- (kb8um8@yahoo.com), April 22, 2000


'They broke all the doors, and they took the boy in tears. They are savages,'' he said. ''They destroyed everything. They came in with guns.''

JBGT's always come in with guns, whenever you have something that they want, or they want to silence you.

-- freeman (freeman@JustSayNo.toJBGTS), April 22, 2000.

Your link didn't work, Kb8, so here's another.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 22, 2000.

They family caused it with the way they ignored what the the court rulings. Freedom does not mean a small group of people has the right to defy the ruling that a child is to be returned to his parent. Had he been my son I would have wanted them going in with guns to retrieve him too. Part of the freedom in this country is the responsibility of following the decisions of the courts of law. The family had lost custody days ago and were holding the child illigally. Personally I believe the way the child has been paraded in front of the media and used by his extended family has been abusive. The family thought they could spit in the face of the laws and decisions of the courts, they are not above the laws any more than anyone else in this country is.

The people in the house are now screaming that they would have taken the child out and into the van. Had they not been playing games with the justice department and "negotiating" (demanding they get to manipulate by their rules) then this would not have been necessary.

It did not have to be done like this, it is not Janet Reno or Bill Clinton's choice to have it end this way, the extended family brought it uopn themselves.

The family and crowd made it clear that they would defy the law if anyone trid to take the child. Now they act like they were going along with the law the entire time. The family had been "negotiating" and agreeing to do certain things then backing out, over and over again. They have been playing games and the games ended up with them getting loosing.

If the Cuban Americans have a problem with Castro they need to deal with it in adult ways, not prostitute a 6 year old child for their own agenda.

The actions of the extended family are the cause of Elian being taken like this.

Janet Reno went out of her way to kiss the families ass in trying to negotiate having the boy returned to his father. The family were breaking the law in keeping the boy after they had lost custody. You have to wonder why they didn't want the boy to leave, what was in it for them to continue on keeping him. They come to this country then they have to follow the laws of this country whether they agree with them or not. Don't try to make it look like "the big bad goberment" is at fault here, had he been my child I would have wanted him taken, even if it meant it had to be done in this way too.

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), April 22, 2000.


I AM SO GLAD they were able to get the child to his dad.....


Thanks for the link. Read the ENTIRE link, seems to me alot of he said/she said going on. They are mad alright, so mad they began to burn American flag?

Give them the right to stay here, and the thanks WE get?

Next link will no doubt be the riots?

----glad to know he is with daddy.

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), April 22, 2000.

See this photo.. very disturbing..


-- no way jose (horrified@ho.me), April 22, 2000.

When they came to this contry they agreed to obey the law... Deport them now!!! No third world tactics here.

-- df (a@w.j), April 22, 2000.

Catro in that 4 hr speech to 1st and 2nd graders:

"Elian is a possesion of the Cuban Government"

-- Chemtrail Pilot (I@spray.u), April 22, 2000.

If it were my child I would NEVER allow this to happen. The LAST thing I would allow is guns along with high emotions around my child. Then again, I would have gone to the ends of the earth to be with my child. WHY wouldn't Elian's father?

Make no mistake, what we've witnessed is the bottom line rights any of us truly have as parents under this government. If "they" decide to take your child, they will, even at the point of a gun.

I think it's disgusting what the government did, how they did it and WHEN they did it. Are Elian's colored eggs sitting in the fridge? (if he colored eggs)

Anyone have email addresses for Clinton, Reno and Greg? I'd appreciate it if you would post them. I, for one, want them to know what I think of them.

-- Debra (sadand@disgusted.com), April 22, 2000.

Bout time that they got that poor kid,

In a closet is where he was hid.

Lets burn up the flag,

Said that fat Cuban skag,

Now the rest it is time to be rid.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), April 22, 2000.


You said, "Make no mistake, what we've witnessed is the bottom line rights any of us truly have as parents under this government. If "they" decide to take your child, they will, even at the point of a gun."

The government was RETURNING the child to his parent, Debra. They were NOT taking the child AWAY from his parent.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 22, 2000.

Anita this government was returning this kid back to Castro. Read my quote above.

-- Chemtrail Pilot (I@spray.u), April 22, 2000.

***Elian's Seizure Surprised Crowd****

what is more surprising is the pathetic conduct of his Miami relatives who purported to love him. To play this child as a puppet due to their personal vendetta against Castro is criminal and shows just how unfit they were to be his guardians. IT IS ABOUT TIME a FATHER's parental rights were enforced!!! Period, end of paragraph. Chemtrail, you accuse Castro of using this child as a government puppet, what the hell do you call the actions of his Miami relatives??? Their behavior was accepteable in your eyes? I hope you don't have kids...

-- penelope pooh (ppooh@yahoo.com), April 22, 2000.

nice picture here

http://www.scfirearms.org/ubb/Forum1/ HTML/006156.html

Police State in America ? Clinton says - Give up your weapons! We will protect you!

-- awdragon (awdragon@yahoo.com), April 22, 2000.

Since when is the government a monster for RETURNING a child to his father?? It is about damn time a father's rights were taken into consideration, even if he lives in a country some right wing wacko's find ....objectionable.

-- Robert (celtic64@inficad.com), April 22, 2000.

He's not being returned to his father he's being returned to Castro.

You people forget too quick no wonder it's so easy to take your freedoms away.

-- (...@....), April 22, 2000.

**He's not being returned to his father he's being returned to Castro.

You people forget too quick no wonder it's so easy to take your freedoms away. **

How DARE you tread on the rights of parents so blindly!!! The parents rights to his/her child are paramount to any of your pathetic political motivations!! YOU ARE SAD!!

-- nemesis (---*@----.com), April 22, 2000.

Do you really approve of soldiers busting into a neighborhood at 5 am and pointing automatic weapons and using tear gas on American Citizens on behalf of Castro?

-- (...@....), April 22, 2000.

I'm sorry, @, I didn't realize Castro was here as a guest of the US Government in DC, waiting for his child to be returned from those scum bags in Miami..... silly me! I thought Juan Miguel was his father, now I know better that it is just Castro in drag!

-- penelope pooh (ppooh@yahoo.com), April 22, 2000.

***Do you really approve of soldiers busting into a neighborhood at 5 am and pointing automatic weapons and using tear gas on American Citizens on behalf of Castro? ***

And how long would you have those scum bags in Miami continue to use this child as a political pawn????? In direct answer, Yes, I DO approve of the returning of this child to HIS FATHER, period.

-- nemesis (---*@---.com), April 22, 2000.

Homeschoolers and religous nutts will be next.

If you reject this mark we will take your child.

-- Chemtrail Pilot (I@spray.u), April 22, 2000.

And here I thought the boy was used to ameliorate relations with Cuba so that Clinton may leave office with a touch of pride.

-- Mahkel (jmfung@hotmail.com), April 22, 2000.

Pooh he' not a guest of the US he's just as much in Cuba as he ever was.

The other night some protrestors were protesting outside the Cuban ambassodors house on American soil and some Cuban thugs I mean bodyguards (and why does the dad need bodyguards so he won't wonder off and get a whif of freedom) came out of the house and beat up the crowd. Freedom.

-- (...@....), April 22, 2000.

**Homeschoolers and religous nutts will be next.

If you reject this mark we will take your child.

-- Chemtrail Pilot (I@spray.u), April 22, 2000.**

Chemtrail, only if you are not the parent of said child! Why are parental rights on this board put on the back burner?

-- Robert (celtic64@inficad.com), April 22, 2000.

Its no longer hard to imagine/beleive the Horrors those bible believers in Waco suffered.

-- Your Full Name (Your@ Email. Address), April 22, 2000.

Homeschoolers and religious nuts you say,

Well now let me think on that spray.

Im sure youre mistaken,

That they will be taken,

But then your name says it all, aye.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), April 22, 2000.

Parental rights is just the guise they use this time.

It gets the majority of you on their side. Then when they do something like this only a few of us thinks it not so good.

Next time they will poll again and find out what to say and most will buy it hook line and sinker.

-- (...@...), April 22, 2000.

@, you obviously have never known anyone fighting to get their child back! maybe you should try walking in that parent's shoes before you go spouting off about a government conspiracy, eh?

-- Robert (celtic64@inficad.com), April 22, 2000.

Anita -

Often in this country two parents are in dispute over the custody of their children. A court decision is rendered. That court decision is often the result of lying by the parents, lying by the lawyers and favortism by judges. The only two who know the truth are the parents and children.

It happens often that the "good parent" loses. THEY are then forced by court order to hand over custody and send their children to what they KNOW is not in the childs best interest. If they refuse they WILL get the same treatment. Again, make no mistake, as a parent your rights, in this country, when all is said and done, are secondary to what the government deems best.

In this instance I am not talking about Elian's fathers rights. I do beieve he has the right to be with his son. I question his part in what took place this morning. He could have went to Elian, he could have told Reno not to go in with guns. BUT...he didn't. To me, in my way of thinking, he is just as responsible for the danger Elian was put in as the people who ordered the raid and the people who took part in it. There was a better way and they were working on it. And don't tell me about how long he has waited. He took his time even coming to this country.

I want to tell you about a personal experience of mine. I rent the downstairs of my house to a gentleman who is divorced and pays child support. His name was on one of those "deadbeat dad" lists. After spending the day in jail it was determined the probation department "made a mistake" and he was released. But here is what happened in my house during that "early morning" raid:

My two daughters and I were sound asleep. It was 4:30 AM. I awoke to very LOUD pounding at my door. The dog was barking uncontrollably. I ran downstairs and still groggy from sleep I opened the door. I thought something happened in my family and fully expected a family member to be there. It wasn't my family. Three very big men in jeans entered my home and surrounded me. At the same time my daughters came to the top of the stairs and were screaming hysterically at the sight of these men surrounding me. Also we could hear a commotion downstairs.

When I tried to go to my daughters they stopped me. When I tried to go the other way the other stopped me. When I told them to leave they wouldn't. They told me they were here for "George" because he didn't pay his child support. Believe it or not while they were explaining what was happening I used that time to get past them to go to my daughters. They followed me upstairs and refused to leave my side. I reassured my daughters.

I told them this was my house, they had no right to come as they did and under these circumstances I am now going downstairs to see what is going on. Downstairs I witnessed 2 men surrounding George while he got dressed. He was not allowed to put on his pants until one of the men checked them out. He was not allowed to get his wallet out of his drawer. I noticed out back there were more men. When they took George out the front door (in handcuffs) they put him in the car and waited until two men from one end of the street, two men from the other end of the street, two men from one side of my house and two men from another side of my house entered other waiting cars. I never saw a gun but I have no doubt that they carried them.

Anita, this is an everyday occurrence in this country. "They" determine by law what is best for our children and then "they" use that law to traumatize our children. "George" could just have easily been taken from work. Why the 4:30 AM visit, traumatic in itself to an adult let alone the children in the home.

A picture speaks a thousand words. Look at that picture of Elian in that closet. That is the only reality that counts here.

I am sorry but I have no respect for a government that pretends to be negotiating the best possible way for Elian and his father to be reunited while at the same time putting into place a raid that puts the whole family, not only Elian, at risk. Elian's father, Ms Reno and Clinton were not at risk. Just a little boy and a family who loves him. Like I said...disgusting.

-- Debra (wrongwrong@wrong.com), April 22, 2000.

Debra, you spend so much time,

Your ideas are way out of line.

Why not try to adjust,

Take some drugs if you must,

Then your attitude will be just fine.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), April 22, 2000.

Ra -

Get a life, get a grip .... don't give me any lip .... Where is your brain? .... And are you sane? ....It's you that's on that trip!

-- Debra (no@contest.com), April 22, 2000.

The "nemesis---*.---com" who commented above is not me. Get your own screenname, dickwad.

-- (nemesis@awol.com), April 22, 2000.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/library/ThisWeek.cgi?type=p&date=0& briefing=5

April 22, 2000



Office of the Press Secretary ______________________________________________________________ For Immediate Release April 22, 2000


The South Lawn

10:28 A.M. EDT

THE PRESIDENT: Good morning. As all of you know, this morning six-year-old Elian Gonzalez was reunited with his father, Juan Miguel Gonzalez.

The Department of Justice, under the leadership of Attorney General Reno, went to great lengths to negotiate a voluntary transfer. Even yesterday, the Attorney General worked very hard on this late into the night, showing great restraint, patience, and compassion. When all efforts failed, there was no alternative but to enforce the decision of the INS and a federal court that Juan Miguel Gonzalez should have custody of his son. The law has been upheld, and that was the right thing to do.

I am well aware that this has been a difficult time for all the parties involved. But let's remember, as I said from the outset, the most important thing was to treat this in a lawful manner according to the established process. This was, in the end, about a little boy who lost his mother and has not seen his father in more than five months. I hope, with time and support, Elian and his father will have the opportunity to be a strong family again.

Thank you very much.

Q Mr. President, what was your role, and did you give the go-ahead for the operation?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, I talked to the Attorney General extensively, especially in the last several days, and I supported the decisions that were made. I think -- we talked last evening last, and then I talked to Mr. Podesta two or three times through the night, and I believe that it was the right thing to do.

She made the decision, she managed this, but I fully support what she did. And it was clear to me from our long conversations that we were in agreement about this. She had a special feeling because she was from Miami, she wanted to resolve this in the most patient way possible to minimize the damage to the people and the community that she loves so much. But she felt strongly, and I felt strongly, that the law had to be upheld and that Elian had to be reunited with his father. And every conceivable alternative was tried for quite a long time.

So I think she did the right thing and I'm very pleased with the way she handled it.

END 10:31 A.M. EDT

-- (White@House.gov), April 22, 2000.

About time they enforced the law in this country. Friggin immigrants that whine how they are oppressed in their home country "take us in!" and then dictate how we should run this country? They had no intention of giving that child up.

Next time you whine about how high your taxes are -- every bleeding heart --remember how much you were willing to PAY for this 5 month fiasco.

I say line up the boats and send the Cubi-cans on their way.

-- (doomerstomper@usa.net), April 22, 2000.

Your anger, Debbie, you should tame,

Your thoughts, Debbie, are so lame.

You cant rhyme worth a shit,

Off your fat ass please git,

And move out of this country you shame!

-- Ra (tion@l.1), April 22, 2000.

Personally, I am happy that Elian will be reunited with his father. Of greater concern to me is what the purpose was in ramping up all the attention to this issue. TPTB decided to focus the attention of this country on this little boy and his plight for a reason. Probably to divert the country's attention from something else. JMHO.

I have barely followed the story as it has progressed. One thing that my Y2K doomerism taught me is that it is better for me to not dwell on all of the negatives and drama that occurs throughout the world daily. Sometimes, just looking at this board makes one feel that the end is nigh.

Today I choose to have a great day. Gonna work in the yard, play with my kids, take a bike ride, make a fire, and hit a few garage sales. I refuse to watch the round the clock coverage of the raid and capture of this little boy. Waste of time. Seize the day. Enjoy it!!

-- greg holmberg (drgah@earthlink.com), April 22, 2000.


We see this one differently. This was NOT a dispute between two parents that both had legal rights to their son. This was a case where the father HAD the right and a child that was being illegally harbored by relatives the child had never seen before fished out of water by a fisherman.

Elian is NOT an American citizen. He has NO rights in this country. Harboring an illegal immigrant is against the law.

Regarding the way things were done, there was NO REASON to believe that the folks in Miami wouldn't put up a fight and use deadly force if necessary. Why didn't Elian's father go to Miami? Why SHOULD he? He's Cuban. He may have quite a different opinion of Castro than the anti-Castro faction in little Havana. If this were MY child and *I* were asked to be thrown to an angry mob intent on keeping MY child, *I* would have chosen not to go. What would be the point? I'm supposed to DEBATE whether I get my child back or not? [I don't THINK so.]

Regarding the time spent before coming to the states, it takes a while for passports and visas to be issued. AFAIK, the U.S. still doesn't allow U.S. citizens to travel to Cuba. If you want to go there, you must go to another country FIRST and apply for a VISA THERE.

Regarding the trauma Elian "suffered", folks act like he's never seen a drawn gun before. There are lots of countries that have police walking the streets with drawn automatic weapons. My kids have visited many of them. The relatives KNEW someone was coming for Elian. Reno TOLD them. They simply didn't know WHEN.

Regarding your renter: Court agreements regarding child-support are handled between the divorcing couples UNTIL the person obliged to pay starts not paying. THEN one has their wages garnished, etc. Some folks do ANYTHING to avoid garnishment of their wages. They change jobs frequently, move frequently, etc. The law states that the custodial parent must be kept informed of these changes. It takes quite a bit to be placed on the "deadbeat" list in the first place. It's unfortunate that your children was frightened by this experience, and it's unfortunate that mistakes happen. I don't think this means that jackboots are waiting to take all our children away.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 22, 2000.

Like I said once before ....Ra is really quite a bore ....With limerick he did speak .... so his brain has sprung a leak .... is there anything he really stands for?

-- Debra (??@??.com), April 22, 2000.

Anyone who crosses Klintoon can expect armed government thugs at his door in the near future, operating under color of "law".

-- Observer (Qbserver@nomore.goons), April 22, 2000.

**Anyone who crosses Klintoon can expect armed government thugs at his door in the near future, operating under color of "law".

-- Observer (Qbserver@nomore.goons), April 22, 2000. **

ahh, so you are advocating using children as political pawns as the scum of Miami were doing? That *guest* in this country can flaunt OUR laws as long as it serves their self interest? That the rights of a FATHER mean nothing to you? You're a pathetic piece of shit!

-- nemesis2 (---*@---.com), April 22, 2000.

Anita -

I guess we do see differently on this one. I believe the intent of the relatives was good and I don't believe Elian's father would have been in danger if he went to Elian. In fact, I think he would have been welcomed by the community.

Whether or not Elian has ever seen a gun I don't know but it mortifies me that he DID see it here in America. Not only Elian but children all across this country saw it. What message have they received from this? What reality do they experience from this? That they live in a country where it IS possible for them to be removed from their home at gunpoint? How many children in the middle of a custody dispute will go to bed tonight in fear?

For Elian's sake and for all children's sake this type of removal should never have been a "last" option. It should not have been an option period.

Again, look at the pictures. Under what circumstances should ANY child, short of real physical threat, have to experience what he did? It doesn't matter whose "fault" it was. All the players are human and all of them made some mistakes but that is a separate issue. Elian was happy where he was and Elian can be happy with his father. There simply was no excuse for bringing automatic weapons at the crack of dawn into this equation. There was just too much risk.

Regarding the renter...laws have changed. It is now up to the custodial parent to determine from the get go whether or not they want support paid through probation. I had that choice before my ex made his first payment. I chose not to but "George's" ex had an axe to grind and chose probation. And to this day, while he is off the "list", his probation records still show he's behind.

-- Debra (it'sabout@risk.com), April 22, 2000.

And I am getting tired of people knocking Cuban-Americans. This is their country too and they have as much right as any other American to speak freely. If anyone doesn't think so then IMHO it is they who should go live in Cuba as obviously they don't understand free speech is only free when it applies to all.

-- Debra (freespeechfor@all.com), April 22, 2000.

And I am getting tired of people knocking Cuban-Americans. This is their country too and they have as much right as any other American to speak freely.

They went beyond speaking dear lady. No one has denied them their right to speak. You seem to confuse free speech with DEMANDING what they will/won't abide by.

-- (doomerstomper@usa.net), April 22, 2000.

Debra, that story is horrifying. I'm sorry that your daughters had to witness such frightening events. Who were these men and what agency were they from? I hope you followed up with media or something; Went over their heads. We can't let them get away with things like this. =(

-- cin (cinlooo@aol.corn), April 22, 2000.

Debra, our kids were illegally snatched by a relative. We had a court order to have them returned. The order was ignored for a time, but finally obeyed. Our kids were traumatized by the kidnapping and by the lies the kidnapper told them about us. If that person had been allowed to keep our kids for months on end while 'negotiating' their return, you bet we would have appealed to law enforcement to take whatever steps were necessary to see that the court order was enforced.

The Miami relatives used that child to further their political agendas. The child was shown on TV talking to his father on the phone and talking about being with his father. Only when the father refused to go into Miami did they start talking about the father not being fit to care for his son. The father has relatives back in Cuba and may have been under orders from his own government to stay out of Miami. He is not a U.S. citizen and not under our protection after he goes home.

Perhaps Mr. Gonzales WANTS to go home to Cuba. This notion that the U.S. is the ONLY place to live is ridiculous. These people have been put through hell because the boy's mother risked the boy's life on the open ocean and the boy lived. If the mother had lived and the boy had died, who would regard her decision as the right one for Elian?

Parents who refuse to pay court ordered child support know what the penalties are. That issue has nothing to do with the case of Elian Gonzales.

-- old lurker (not@home.now), April 22, 2000.


-- NO WARRANT (NO@WARR.ANT), April 22, 2000.

And Ra, before another limerick you make .... let me tell you to go jump in the lake .... Tear gas and assault weapons indeed .... shows us as a people in much need .... we condone "children by gunpoint" for God's sake.

-- Debra (gunsand@children?.com), April 22, 2000.

cin -

It's legal, that's my point. I followed through and found these are our laws. Our government can enter our homes and do anything they want with the law behind them.

I just saw pictures of Elian with his father, step-mother and half- brother. It's a beautiful family picture. One cannot help but feel the rightness of it. But if anything had gone wrong with the raid that picture would not have been possible. My anger is at a government who decides to go into a home with assault weapons to remove a child. No one can tell me that that was the only possible thing they could do. But then again, maybe they had safety locks on those guns being there were children around? And better yet, maybe they got the message across to our children that guns solve anything?

-- Debra (wrongwrong@wrong.com), April 22, 2000.


I'm not a violent person, and I don't anger easily. That said, I would NOT sit idly by for 5 months while some distant relatives TOOK custody of MY child without putting up one helluva fight. I would have asked the government to go in and take my child by force as well. Don't simply look at the pictures, Debra. The pictures were designed to elicit an emotional response. READ the stories. Reno had originally intended to recover the child at 3am, but continued trying to negotiate with the distant relatives. They weren't budging. They continued to set the goal-posts further and further out. FINALLY Reno said, "Enough is enough." [I would have said that a LONG time ago, myself, but I'm putting myself in the position of the parent waiting.]

Do I think kids will watch the news and be fearful that the government will take them away from their family? I don't think average American kids will be fearful. I suppose if kids are in a family that's on the run they could be fearful. I suppose if kids are in a family that knowingly breaks the law they could be fearful.

The law said that the child should be returned. The distant family broke the law. I'm sure you're not suggesting that folks who break the law should be disregarded simply because there are children in the home.

My kids are older now, Debra, but they saw a lot while growing up. They had friends with older siblings who got into trouble with the law and they wondered why the police arrested them. I don't have patience with law-breakers. We know the laws, and we know that there are consequences if we break the laws. My kids have known all along that if they broke the law they couldn't count on ME to bail them out. You do the crime and you do the time. As I see it, the Miami relatives pushed the envelope on the law. They KNEW it, but they broke it anyway.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 22, 2000.

Unfortunately, I think that getting the kid the way it was done was the only way it was ever going to happen. The relatives would simply continue to raise objections and move the goalposts until the child was removed by force.

I wonder how this would have all played out if it was his mother asking for him back instead of the father? Seems like at least a bit of sexism here.

-- Jim Cooke (JJCooke@yahoo.com), April 22, 2000.

Anita -

I would not sit idly by for a minute. I would have been at that door in a heartbeat. I would have talked to my family until it was worked out. Don't confuse this story with other stories. The family wanted Elian's father there and if anyone disagrees with that then I suggest the truth was never given an opportunity to be seen. To chose assault weapons at the crack of dawn without MY ever making the effort to talk is beyond me as a parent.

-- Debra (wrongwrong@wrong.com), April 22, 2000.

ahh, so you are advocating using children as political pawns as the scum of Miami were doing? That *guest* in this country can flaunt OUR laws as long as it serves their self interest? That the rights of a FATHER mean nothing to you? You're a pathetic piece of shit!

-- nemesis2 (---*@---.com), April 22, 2000.

Nemesis2/Ra/Manny/Pea-Brain/ or whoever you are,

I don't recall saying any of this. Where'd you learn to read?

-- Observer (observer@vantage.point), April 22, 2000.

Jim -

Do you think that if those Federal agents showed up as they did, minus the assault weapons, that they would have been able to accomplish the same thing? Or if they kept the assault weapons outside, away from the children? Do you really think this was the ONLY answer?

-- Debra (wrongwrong@wrong.com), April 22, 2000.


I read the reports. The family was invited to Washington to meet with Elian's dad. They refused. They wanted the discussion on THEIR turf. WHY? Elian's dad felt uncomfortable going to Miami. The choice was HIS, and I would have made the same choice.

The latest reports indicate that Reno was WARNED that someone in the house may have weapons, OR that some of the protestors OUTSIDE the house may have weapons. YOU expected them to go in and recover Elian unarmed. THEY weren't going to risk THEIR lives in that process.

Since you did the "What if" thing somewhere above, I'd add one of my own. "What if" the INS agents were met with lethal force after coming in unarmed? Would you have felt comfortable with one of Elian's distant relatives waving a gun around? I'm using YOU in these statements to mean the collective YOU. I'm not singling you out individually, Debra.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 22, 2000.

Lorenzo said it himself a week ago:

"They will have to take this child by force!"

Well, you get what you play for, you law breaking ignoramus.

-- (@ .), April 22, 2000.

Anita -

Elian's father's choice was to let his child be exposed to assault weapons without first doing what he could to defuse the situation.

Reno was warned that someone MAY have had weapons? Well if they did they certainly did not use them. And if that was truly a concern should that not have told them this was not the way to go?

In this particular case your "what if" does not apply as we now know Elian's "distant" relatives were NOT waving guns around. And if we give the government this excuse to use they WILL use it everytime.

-- Debra (wrongwrong@wrong.com), April 22, 2000.

I'll scream "Uncle", Debra. I think we could debate this one until the cows come home and never agree. [grin]

Let's just agree to disagree. *I* think the government made the right choice. You don't agree. I don't think average kids will be afraid. You don't agree. I don't think this will establish a precedent to be used on law-abiding Americans. You disagree.

That about covers it, dontcha think?

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 22, 2000.


Law enforcement officers are armed. They have to be armed because they never know what may happen at any time. When they engage in a law enforcement action, they have to be armed to protect themsleves. Imagine that your relative was a law enforcement officer told to go into a situation that is volatile at best but you have to leave your weapon behind because it might look bad to the press.

The police don't exist to "play fair". They exist to enforce the law with as little risk to themselves as possible.

-- Jim Cooke (JJCooke@yahoo.com), April 22, 2000.

Debra cant seem to grasp what they did,

The reality for her is quite hid.

All those Cubans are punks,

Whores, pimps, and some drunks,

Who could care less about the poor kid!

-- Ra (tion@l.1), April 22, 2000.

Anita -

Ok. We'll agree to disagree. :)

Jim -

But assault weapons and tear gas to get a child? :(

Ra -

Go away

-- Debra (sadsad@sad.com), April 22, 2000.

First of all to Ra: your bigotry is disgusting. And it's quite a sad commentary that none of the other participants have seen fit to condemn it. Anita, you never have any trouble speaking your mind, why are you silent?

As to the subject of this thread, my NSHO is that the boy should have been returned to his father. BUT. My understanding is that the relatives in Miami were still pursuing action through the courts *and the rulings were favoring them*! Reno's action today clearly circumvented the principle of the rule of law in this country with her decision to use force *against* American citizens *in support of* an alien. Doesn't anyone see what's wrong with this picture? If not, I hope you have the opportunity to be on the receiving end of one of these raids.


BTW, Debra, good work.

-- LBO Grise (LBO Grise@aol.com), April 22, 2000.

Debra, Similar situation happened to my step mom after dad died, police and bounty hunters stormed house, put loaded gun to sisters head she had on no clothes...end result, major lawsuit, and BIG money. Have you looked into a suit? I would if I were you, and you were an innocent party same as my stepmom and sister.

Now onto my humble comments:

As I said at the beginning, next thread, the RIOTS....

Elians miami folks went to Washington KNOWING they were NOT going to get a VISIT...They wouldnt go before, why now.? At the same time they were rejected at AFB, the police arrived in riot gear, media was confused as to 'why' they were shoved back and told they could not be protected by police.

WHY? hummm, perhaps its 1. getting dark

2. Miami folks getting ready to 'snivel' again to the media.

Earlier they allowed media into home, cousin 'faked' tears, (gag) there were NO tears, just rants. Did anyone hear the letter she read?

She told on herself/family and the unrational demands they were making on Reno. As Anita stated, goals raised again and again.

It broke my heart to see the fear on the little boy, but there was no other way. Negotiations failed because the family didnt want to comprimise. Sad, but true... End result (so far) a VERY happy Elian w/daddy and true family.

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), April 22, 2000.

"Anita, you never have any trouble speaking your mind, why are you silent?"

I spent half the day posting on this forum today. *I* was silent? If you meant why was I silent about Ra's limericks, I skip right over them. I skip over ALL limericks.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 22, 2000.


Of course that's what I meant. You've been a major player on this and one or two other Elian threads where "Ra" has posted similar garbage. Now your excuse is you don't read limericks? Okay, now that I've drawn your attention to his behavior, still no reaction? I'm beginning to get the picture.


-- LBO Grise (LBO Grise@aol.com), April 22, 2000.

Ras a bigot screams the halfwit ElBo,

And then Debra blabs Ra please just go.

Neither one of you clowns,

Have a clue what went down,

When the Government acts you yell NO.

You two morons are making me ill,

Of your bullshit Ive bout had my fill.

Is there something you dont understand,

Bout the law of our wonderful land,

Why not move your sad ass if you will.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), April 22, 2000.


Of course that's what I meant. You've been a major player on this and one or two other Elian threads where "Ra" has posted similar garbage. Now your excuse is you don't read limericks? Okay, now that I've drawn your attention to his behavior, still no reaction? I'm beginning to get the picture.

Elbow ***

But why dignify such behavior with any response other than silence?

-- Rob (celtic64@inficad.com), April 22, 2000.

"Of course that's what I meant. You've been a major player on this and one or two other Elian threads where "Ra" has posted similar garbage. Now your excuse is you don't read limericks? Okay, now that I've drawn your attention to his behavior, still no reaction? I'm beginning to get the picture."

It's obvious that I read YOUR post, Elbow Grease, but I did NOT bother to go back and read Ra's limericks. So sorry to disappoint you, but I spend my time the way *I* choose to spend my time. I already told Ra in another thread that when he gets over his limerick phase, I'll read his posts again. You wouldn't want me to break my word, would you? If he posted something really obnoxious I would have skipped over that as well. I DO believe that silence has a loud voice.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 22, 2000.


I have taken to eyeballing the limericks for keywords to see if I want to read them or not. Since most of the keywords I pick-up on are putting out some kind of negative, derogatory vibe, that's as far as I get. I figure I don't want to waste my time and pretty much stopped reading them altogether. (I'll take a well-composed, expository flame over a limerick any day.)

But if you wish, I'll register my complaint now:

Ra, cut the crap with the limericks!....

Learn to single space for gods sake!

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), April 22, 2000.


Silence in the face of blatant bigotry is also bigotry. Must I repeat "First they came for the communists...."?


-- LBO Grise (LBO Grise@aol.com), April 22, 2000.

It did not have to be done like this, it is not Janet Reno or Bill Clinton's choice to have it end this way, the extended family brought it uopn themselves. That's a bunch of malarky, Cherri, how in the world can you claim THIS nonsense? It was Reno's decision clearly, she even said so herself! And Clinton agreed with her decision.

Now, this matter is STILL before an appealate court...have you even read the ruling in it???? I thought not, well I have, in it's entirity. The judge castigated the INF for not even talking to the kid, which they did not even do, the first time the INF "interviewed" Elian was at gunpoint. The judge also stated that no agency, federal or otherwise, was to allow the boy to be returned to Cuba until the issue was settled.

Like Y2K, many opinions are offered, few are informed. Brush up before you speak please!

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), April 22, 2000.

http://www.law.e mory.edu/11circuit/elian1.html

Read the whole thing, and then let me know if you think Reno and the INF have been "straight up" about this. 6 vans of commando's ....and one kid? Get real.

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), April 22, 2000.


Im going to step away from the rhymes for a minute and address some of the issues that have been raised. Please understand that your insistence that I am a bigot has no value to me what so ever. I dont know you and I find it hard to be offended by non-entities here in cyber space. Just as you, Im sure, are not upset when I refer to you as a delusional moron and uneducated fool. I decided a few days ago to go the limerick route for a variety of reasons, foremost being the challenge associated with crafting something clever that may relate to the subject of the thread. IMHO of course.

As pertains to your charge of bigotry I plead guilty. The fact is that we are all bigoted about something or somebodys. Anyone who claims otherwise is either lying to you or deceiving themselves. Bigotry is part of our human experience and we all share that trait. We are bigoted against others who are fat, ugly, poor, or just drive a junker car. We are bigoted against those of a different color, race, sex, or just live in a different neighborhood. I will admit to being bigoted against homosexuals, IRS agents, disrespectful ethnic groups and stupid fucking posters on this forum.

Also, I am extremely bigoted against immigrants that come to this country and ignore our laws and demand that we acquiesce to their heated and passionate demands. When I see a group like the Miami based Cubans screaming on TV how ashamed they are of America and then burning our flag and stomping it on the ground, my blood boils. When I see those over- the-top Cubans hitting Miami Police officers with baseball bats I wish for the Federal agents to go back and waste all of those fuckers. Are you getting the picture Elbow?

Now let me give you my take on this whole Elian situation. Years ago, our government told the Cuban people that to set foot on American soil was to be allowed to stay. This is a Carte invitation extended to no other peoples of any country. This was our way of recovering from the Bay of Pigs disaster and pulling on Castros beard. Then Castro said fine, Ive got hundreds of thousands of scum you are welcome to and Ill send them over post haste on the Muriel fleet. The Cuban community in this country hates Castro with such a passion that they would do anything to get back at him, anything. They dont give a flying fuck about this Elian kid. What kind of life do you think this kid would have without all of this publicity? Think he would be embraced by these assholes? Think his drunken Great Uncle or crack whore Aunt would give him a good life? Think the whole Cuban community would fawn over his every move? I think you know the answer to those questions so lets move on.

Many people in this country hate our government with the same passion that the Cubans hate Castro. As a result there is nothing our government does that meets the approval of these folks. To a certain extent I am one of them. I get sick when I see Reno and Messier(SP?) standing side by side on TV. This is what our leaders have become? What a joke and lets throw Clinton in there for sure. There is nothing the government could have done that many of you would have sanctioned, just on GP.

In conclusion, the kid is where he belongs, with his Father. If he goes back to Cuba so what. You think that Elian will have a tough life in Cuba? If you do then you are truly an idiot and should never be taken seriously. This kid will become the biggest hero in Cuba (next to Fidel of course) and will live the life of a protected celebrity. Castro will give us a day by day photomontage of his wonderful life. In the meantime, those law-breaking Cubans in Miami need to have their ass kicked and reminded that they have been granted the biggest honor in their lives to live here in America. Should they continue to be ashamed to live here then lets help them GET THE FUCK OUT!!!

Did I make myself clear,

With these many words here.

Its hard to be short,

And still craft a retort,

But with limericks Ill post with no fear!

-- Ra (tion@l.1), April 22, 2000.

Hell yeah -- Ra is B-A-C-K !! You said a mouthful Ra, and as poignant as ever I might add.

I'm biased on many things. A bigot? Maybe. Do I have peace with that? You bet. I'm sick of the reverse-bigotry in this country that says I MUST agree/conform to the liberal status quo.

-- (doomerstomper@usa.net), April 22, 2000.

Good Morning Everyone. It's Easter. Happpy Easter.

I awoke this morning to the picture of Elian and his father together and smiling. Juan is a very handsome man and he truly looks happy. His face is so relaxed, his smile says much.

Yesterday I questioned very deeply how a parent could let this happen. Without trying to defuse the situation himself by talking to the family Juan essentially gave the ok for Federal agents with tear gas and assault weapons to go in and remove his son.

How would one tie together the obvious love in the picture with the risk permitted by this parent?

Juan was born and raised in Cuba. How does the Cuban government handle things? With force and with guns. He doesn't know anything different. To be understanding of Juan I would have to acknowledge this.

If he had ever dreamed of what it would truly mean to live in America with freedom, to live a life free from the threat of a government whose only answers are guns...he now knows that that's all it is in the end...a dream.

But what about us? How many of us woke up with this story? It's one thing to use assault weapons and tear gas for terroists, hostage situations and the like...but to use it in family disputes? Whether you side with the family or with the father makes no difference. What you need to look at is the WAY this was handled. Is this your dream? Today it is your Cuban-American neighbors who were put at risk by our government's excessive use of force. Tomorrow it may be you.

AND. If you believe that if it was "your child" you would want the government to step in...GOOD LUCK. Do you really think they will send in the SWAT team for you? This country's courts hand out court orders on custody everyday. Find out what they do to enforce them. They tell people they need to go back to court to get another one. Many people are tangled in the system going in circles. Our government does NOT send in the "storm-troopers" for them.

So...why in this case did it happen? IMHO we need to determine whether were living the American dream or the American reality.

-- Debra (Thanksgiving,GoodFriday@Easter.com), April 23, 2000.


This "storm trooper" business actually had its beginnings back in the Bush and Reagan administrations, but Klinton and Reno have refined it and brought it mainstream. The American people had better wake up before long to the reality that these types could just as easily bash in your door someday due to a mistaken address or a false tip from a drug-informant. I personally know some people that this happened to. They are an African American family, very devout Christians, and the husband (who's big enough to play Fullback) is studying to be a minister. The JBGT squad had the wrong house, bashed in their door, stuck guns in everyones faces, thoroughly terrorized the family, and ransacked the house. Then, no apologies and no payment for damages. The family should have sued, but they didn't. The militarization of police functions in our country today is truly frightening. Having cancer at the top, eroding the morale of the many good officers, and putting people like Buddy Young (the corrupt former head of the Arkansas State Police) in high positions is hastening the demise of freedom in America. Let's wake up before it's too late!

-- Flash (flash@flash.hq), April 23, 2000.

Flash -

As a person who has experienced one of these "before dawn raids" of the innocent I can testify to the fact that you are powerless. Once "they" decide their coming a person has NO RIGHTS WHATSOEVER!!! Your home is no longer your own.

This may be a simple thing but I believe a telling thing:

When all was said and done in my situation there was a very firm refusal to even apologize. The sense I got was that there is a very real belief in their own "power".

Just one of the very disturbing things that the government did to the Miami family was to have them on the phone pretending to try to work it out peacefully while knowing that the SWAT team was on their way. How anyone in this country could believe that this government works in "good faith" is beyond me.

In my own situation they did not come to my door with uniforms and badges. They came in jeans. They came when my "bio-rhythms" were down, when there was no one around to help AND in a way that could put the most fear possible in me. If they had been in uniforms and had shown badges I may have been able to be more sure of what was really happening. As it was I had a number of VERY BIG men in my house and as they were dressed in jeans I couldn't even be sure they weren't a bunch of thugs or rapists.

I don't appreciate ANYONE playing psychological games with me. It is chilling to think my government would do it to place fear in me.

-- Debra (youonlyhaveto@looktoseeit.com), April 23, 2000.

Happy Easter, Debra.

In my opinion, this WAS a hostage situation. In addition, it IS a Federal matter because Elian is NOT a U.S. Citizen, nor is his father, who is now in the country. The state courts do not have authority regarding custody of non-citizens.

I did quite a bit of research yesterday regarding international incidents of this sort. You'd be amazed at how many non-custodial parents flee the U.S. seeking asylum in OTHER countries with their children. When the custodial parent seeks extradition of the children from these countries, the countries comply if they're a member of [is it the Hague Treaty?] However, the problem is that the countries don't go out of the way to ENFORCE their rulings, leaving the custodial parent in another country STILL struggling for return of their child. The same arguments are used. The non-custodial parent claims that life in the U.S. is slavery, etc.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 23, 2000.


Sorry to hear that you had a "firsthand" experience. I forgot to add that my friend's occurred in the "Peoples Republik of Kalifornia". Just another of the many reasons I finally left. This stuff can occur anywhere, but it appears to be less likely where I live now in Northern AZ. This is all related to the so called "War on Drugs", which is really a war on the Constitution and our rights.

I forgot to add last time: HAPPY EASTER!

-- Flash (flash@flash.hq), April 23, 2000.

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